Boomtown Interviews Positron About Issue 13!
By
Alvdraken,
Posted on: 2008-11-12 17:50 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
I think it's hilarious that people think that the other superhero MMO will somehow "get" what players want.
Since NCNC bought CoH from cryptic we've gotten features we've been asking for for 4 years, but while captain fancy helmet was in charge and Cryptic was roaming these hills we got... ED, and broken PvP that Posi has to take [censored] for.
Yeah, run to the mooks that lit the fire your complaining about, I'll stay here while Posi fixes things up and continues to deliver what players have asked for.
The great thing is you can play both (or neither) and decide if Jack really did learn a lot from CoH or if you want to stay here and enjoy ED 2: the death of PvP.
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
I am an occasional PvP'er. I will probably check out PvP when it goes live, but I'm not rushing to test server for it.
Not really looking forward to Mission Architect either. I know there's a good chance it could changed, but the initial comment about the rewards being scaled down to prevent farming/abuse, just seems like a poor choice to me.
It seems like everywhere I turn there's talk about farmers and too many people making a build. I'm beginning to feel like the farmers of the game get more attention than regular players. Perhaps I'm wrong, but can there really be that many farmers out there that rewards and merits need to be toned down? Why should the average player suffer?
As far as I13, I'm looking forward to the release mainly because I want to try a */pain. I do wish they would consider the average player when deciding what to do about merit rewards though, instead of keeping farmers in mind.
If you don't like something change it; if you can't change it, change the way you think about it.
~Mary Engelbreit
Let PvP die for all I care. CoH wasn't initially designed for it and even with the overhaul, it still won't be as adequate as a game that was built with PvP in mind from the start.
The Mission Architect will be interesting to play with. Looking forward to that myself.
It's apperent the Devs don't dive a Damn about the voices of the masses. They just gonna do their own thing an tell those of us (An I'm talkin a VAST majority) to go kiss off. 90% of my friends have left due to the PvP changes an STILL, They don't give a Damn...Whats the Point in havin a Test server if they not gonna care what our opinions are gonna be anyway. Just Make the changes an state: "Deal with it". It's aapperent that the Devs egos are far to fragile to realize they are WRONG! The PvE changes show alot of potential an I14 could have been even better. But The PvP has Trashed this Game beyond repaair an the Devs are just gonna sit back an let it Rot. The Numbers have spoken....an they WILL continue ta do so with their drop.
I'd like to respond to the following comments from Positron about the PvP segment of I13:
"Matt Miller: Issue 13 started off having all sorts of new features tied around PvP, simply because it was a system that we had not put as much attention towards in the past. When we began to play these new systems, the feedback we got was that none of them were any fun. This was really disappointing, since they looked good in design. When we drilled down to exactly why they were not fun, we came to the sobering realization that the lack of fun wasnt the new systems fault, it was PvP as a whole that was limiting. Certain powersets dominated. Certain ATs were impossible to beat. Certain tactics were fun, but only for the person employing them. For everyone else these tactics bordered on frustrating, annoying, and a plethora of other words that are antonyms for fun.
PvP as a whole needed to be fixed. Wed let the current system get into a state where only a small handful of our players actually used it. If we were really going to invest in these new PvP systems, we needed to get the current PvP game to be accepted and used by more than just that handful of players. Floyd Castle Grubb and his team poured over datamines, made a whole slew of changes to the way powers behaved, and even went so far as to pre-tackle sticky issues like many-on-one ganking.
As a player of CoH I am excited to see what my Dominator will bring to the table in PvP after Issue 13 goes live. The playtests have been nothing but fun here in the office, and I hope that the efforts of Castle and his crew can be tried out by people who have been turned off by PvP in the past. I urge everyone who found PvP in CoH to be frustrating and un-fun to come back and check it out in Issue 13. "
First off, unpopular game revamps tend to go wrong mainly with the data-mining that leads to important decisions. This is what I'd like to focus on.
One comment talks about certain builds currently dominating pvp. One of these happens to be the "dominator." How do they dominate? They set their build up to have "perma-dom," in other words other players are put into a never-ending hold state.
Here's where things begin to disconnect in my view. What does I13 do with perma-hold? Removes mez protection. One of the reasons that I've always been able to compete with dominators (or widows) is my mez protection, and that has been removed. I used to try to get in close to a dominator before the holds stacked enough to overwhelm my mez protection. This was fun for BOTH of us. The move in I13 seems badly disconnected from what really needs to be done. In fact it seems to be going in the opposite direction.
Why not give other builds a measure of mez protection to try to allow them to get hits in before the holds take effect? The slower your build, or the more limited your range, the longer your mez protection should last. Highly agile, ranged builds should get some mez protection, so they don't get insta-mezzed and killed, but it should be a small amount because of their high powered ranged attacks.
This modification to the current game would make a huge difference for builds (squishies) that are currently no fun to play in pvp. One of the reasons they aren't fun is that they usually get instantly mezzed and killed.
In the I13 changes, now MORE builds are getting instantly mezzed and killed. Thus it seems that more people are frustrated, including scrappers, who currently don't have this problem because of their mez protection.
Another hard to beat build includes defensive powers like intangible and hide. Simply put, a villain (usually stalker) will attack. If he/she doesn't kill you out right, they will then hit the intangible button, and go to hide, rendering counter-attack impossible.
This has not been addressed in any way in I13. It continues to be a guaranteed hit-and run tactic which some people find frustrating.
Now, let's look at what makes some builds competitive. Tanks are great in pvp because they can take a ton of damage. Their big problem though is that they can't move (builds like stone tanks I mean). What makes them competitive on the mobility aspect of things? TP self. This is the only way they can have any mobility (again thinking stone tanks). I13 is removing this from the game. Certain tank builds will therefore be much less competitive.
Let's talk about some other builds that do well in current pvp. How about the ice/cold corruptor. Very, very good for ranged damage, slows, holds etc. A nice build. In fact this is the most challenging build for me to fight as a regen scrapper. It's the slows and high ranged damage that get me. Is this frustrating though? No. It's very enjoyable. What makes it this way is my ability to teleport myself out of a slow attack TO my attacker and hit him with my Katana. Slow vs. tp self is balanced. I have a good chance to win, but if the corruptor is alert and mobile, my tp self/melee attack will miss him.
Also, web grenades as a melee toon give me a chance to bring down fliers, so thank goodness they have decided to give those back.
I'm very much hoping that the development team will read what I've written above about mez protection, and how to improve instead of removing it. I hope they'll see why their current approach to mez will actually spread frustration around more widely. I'm also hoping they'll take a look at limiting the range of tp self, so it can still be used by stone tanks, and for counter attacks against ranged builds with slow powers, instead of removing tp self altogether. I think limiting the range of tp self, eliminates it as a guaranteed escape strategy, but still allows stone tanks to move, and scrappers to tp themselves TO ranged attackers.
Also, to the development team and decision makers. I apologize for the way I've expressed my frustration at times. I felt that I was losing a lot of invested time and energy, and that my voice was not being heard. I think the frustration is understandable, but I'm not happy with the way it was expressed.
Also, please recognize that current pvpers DO recognize a need for change. We also feel that we know the pvp system extremely well, strengths AND weaknesses. We feel that we have important input. Please don't dismiss this just because we found ways to enjoy the current system. Yes we like it AND we see room for improvement. Please do not see these two things from an either/or perspective.
[ QUOTE ]
I think it's hilarious that people think that the other superhero MMO will somehow "get" what players want.
Since NCNC bought CoH from cryptic we've gotten features we've been asking for for 4 years, but while captain fancy helmet was in charge and Cryptic was roaming these hills we got... ED, and broken PvP that Posi has to take [censored] for.
Yeah, run to the mooks that lit the fire your complaining about, I'll stay here while Posi fixes things up and continues to deliver what players have asked for.
[/ QUOTE ]
I haven't been here nearly as long, but I'm with ya... I'm tired of people sounding like spoiled kids. Go! It was nice having you while you were here and I appreciate any of you that I've had the chance to team with. If you decide to return, I'll be waiting for you.
If its broke, don't fix it... I like the chaos!
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to respond to the following comments from Positron about the PvP segment of I13:
"Matt Miller: Issue 13 started off having all sorts of new features tied around PvP, simply because it was a system that we had not put as much attention towards in the past. When we began to play these new systems, the feedback we got was that none of them were any fun. This was really disappointing, since they looked good in design. When we drilled down to exactly why they were not fun, we came to the sobering realization that the lack of fun wasnt the new systems fault, it was PvP as a whole that was limiting. Certain powersets dominated. Certain ATs were impossible to beat. Certain tactics were fun, but only for the person employing them. For everyone else these tactics bordered on frustrating, annoying, and a plethora of other words that are antonyms for fun.
PvP as a whole needed to be fixed. Wed let the current system get into a state where only a small handful of our players actually used it. If we were really going to invest in these new PvP systems, we needed to get the current PvP game to be accepted and used by more than just that handful of players. Floyd Castle Grubb and his team poured over datamines, made a whole slew of changes to the way powers behaved, and even went so far as to pre-tackle sticky issues like many-on-one ganking.
As a player of CoH I am excited to see what my Dominator will bring to the table in PvP after Issue 13 goes live. The playtests have been nothing but fun here in the office, and I hope that the efforts of Castle and his crew can be tried out by people who have been turned off by PvP in the past. I urge everyone who found PvP in CoH to be frustrating and un-fun to come back and check it out in Issue 13. "
First off, unpopular game revamps tend to go wrong mainly with the data-mining that leads to important decisions. This is what I'd like to focus on.
One comment talks about certain builds currently dominating pvp. One of these happens to be the "dominator." How do they dominate? They set their build up to have "perma-dom," in other words other players are put into a never-ending hold state.
Here's where things begin to disconnect in my view. In I13, Positron is looking forward to see how his dominator can compete. Doesn't he realize that this is already one of the most powerful builds?
And what does I13 do with perma-hold? Removes mez protection. One of the reasons that I've always been able to compete with dominators is my mez protection, and that has been removed. I used to try to get in close to a dominator before the holds stacked enough to overwhelm my mez protection. This was fun for BOTH of us. The move in I13 seems badly disconnected from what really needs to be done. In fact it seems to be going in the opposite direction.
Why not give other builds a measure of mez protection to try to allow them to get hits in before the holds take effect? The slower your build, or the more limited your range, the longer your mez protection should last. Highly agile, ranged builds should get some mez protection, so they don't get insta-mezzed and killed, but it should be a small amount because of their high powered ranged attacks.
This modification to the current game would make a huge difference for builds (squishies) that are currently no fun to play in pvp. One of the reasons they aren't fun is that they usually get instantly mezzed and killed.
In the I13 changes, now MORE builds are getting instantly mezzed and killed. Thus it seems that more people are frustrated, including scrappers, who currently don't have this problem because of their mez protection.
Another hard to beat build includes defensive powers like intangible and hide. Simply put, a villain (usually stalker) will attack. If he/she doesn't kill you out right, they will then hit the intangible button, and go to hide, rendering counter-attack impossible.
This has not been addressed in any way in I13. It continues to be a guaranteed hit-and run tactic which some people find frustrating.
Now, let's look at what makes some builds competitive. Tanks are great in pvp because they can take a ton of damage. Their big problem though is that they can't move (builds like stone tanks I mean). What makes them competitive on the mobility aspect of things? TP self. This is the only way they can have any mobility (again thinking stone tanks). I13 is removing this from the game. Certain tank builds will therefore be much less competitive.
Let's talk about some other builds that do well in current pvp. How about the ice/cold corruptor. Very, very good for ranged damage, slows, holds etc. A nice build. In fact this is the most challenging build for me to fight as a regen scrapper. It's the slows and high ranged damage that get me. Is this frustrating though? No. It's very enjoyable. What makes it this way is my ability to teleport myself out of a slow attack TO my attacker and hit him with my Katana. Slow vs. tp self is balanced. I have a good chance to win, but if the corruptor is alert and mobile, my tp self/melee attack will miss him.
Also, web grenades as a melee toon give me a chance to bring down fliers, so thank goodness they have decided to give those back.
I'm very much hoping that the development team will read what I've written above about mez protection, and how to improve instead of removing it. I hope they'll see why their current approach to mez will actually spread frustration around more widely. I'm also hoping they'll take a look at limiting the range of tp self, so it can still be used by stone tanks, and for counter attacks against ranged builds with slow powers, instead of removing tp self altogether. I think limiting the range of tp self, eliminates it as a guaranteed escape strategy, but still allows stone tanks to move, and scrappers to tp themselves TO ranged attackers.
Also, to the development team and decision makers. I apologize for the way I've expressed my frustration at times. I felt that I was losing a lot of invested time and energy, and that my voice was not being heard. I think the frustration is understandable, but I'm not happy with the way it was expressed.
Also, please recognize that current pvpers DO recognize a need for change. We also feel that we know the pvp system extremely well, strengths AND weaknesses. We feel that we have important input. Please don't dismiss this just because we found ways to enjoy the current system. Yes we like it AND we see room for improvement. Please do not see these two things from an either/or perspective.
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VERY nicely put. Better then my anger based Rant....Be nice if the Devs actually consider your opinion.....I'd be absolutely amazed....but It would be nice. Might wanna add in a solution to gankin the Ios bein useless an the Buffs bein Ganked....I used ta enjoy Team PvPin.....(Including bein the Solo VS a group of Villians) Not even worth doin now. Still....Nice ta hear The PvPers opinions so elequently put. Good Job Jaaax
Agreed.
"Matt Miller: Our goal is that all powers are used an equal amount. Of course, this goal is impossible, as everyone has their favorite, and certain powers are specifically flavored to certain play styles. But if we see that there is a power or powerset that is constantly being ignored by the population, then we know where we can concentrate our efforts. The reverse is also true. There is no better indicator that power is TOO powerful than the fact that a higher than normal amount of characters take it."
People taking a power or powerset more often than others does not necessarily mean it's overpowered, just that people enjoy it. The devs should focus on fixing the broken powers and sets nobody plays rather than nerfing the powers and sets that their customers enjoy. This should be common sense.
"Here's where things begin to disconnect in my view. In I13, Positron is looking forward to see how his dominator can compete. Doesn't he realize that this is already one of the most powerful builds?"
I was wondering the same thing. It seems like they didn't even have a grasp of how pvp WAS, maybe that is the problem.
I disagree. This is nothing like SWG. They changed the entire combat system, the classes you can choose and the way the powers are not only chosen but utilized. Entire classes were eliminated. After SWG was done, it was unrecognizable by the players.
I've PvP'd with most classes and agree that some sets have a poor chance in a PvP situation reguardless of how they've been slotted. This being said, most peple who PvP avoid those classes or sets. My hope is that the changes to the ballance makes "all" or almost all set competative in PvP. Some will get nurfed and some will be enhance.
I know several people that will actually start PvPing again with other toons besides using thier uber tanks and megga scrappers.
The changes to PvP are being made "because" so few people engage in it. The vast "Majority" avoids PvP. They Devs are listening to people, just not the ones that think things are working properly.
BTW. The "Masses" dont post in the Forums. The "Masses" are PLing and farming because they dont want to get ganked by another over powered brute or scrap. If the system worked there would be a much larger PvP community.
My hope is they have all those new programmers working on a "Boxed" For-Pay Issue with a significant amount of new content and more dimension to game play to mirror the new hero games coming out namely DC Universe Online.
Thats assuming all PvP players lvl up and earn the inf to purchace thes IOs themselves rather than PLing to 50 and recieving the IOs from SG mates or alt toons. Even if thats true, it doesn't change the fact that after the changes in i13, people will still have to lvl up and get the IOS. i13 doesn't hand out sets or lvl bumps. How does this reward players for no effort?
I can put all the time and effort into my Emp/Psi (and I have) and I still can't compete with and Brute or Scrap and its not based on Skill. This is a "Set" flaw. Obviously as it is, Emp/Psi is a team based set that has no chanse in a solo PvP environment. I'd love to be proven wrong but I haven't been yet.
I'm not saying these classes don't PvP, I'm just saying they have a distinct disadvantage.
Enjoy WoW. We'll send you updates on the game improvements.
(Scratching my head) Or did he mean a particular power makes people choose a particular AT because its too powerful?? hmmm
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I think it's hilarious that people think that the other superhero MMO will somehow "get" what players want.
Since NCNC bought CoH from cryptic we've gotten features we've been asking for for 4 years, but while captain fancy helmet was in charge and Cryptic was roaming these hills we got... ED, and broken PvP that Posi has to take [censored] for.
Yeah, run to the mooks that lit the fire your complaining about, I'll stay here while Posi fixes things up and continues to deliver what players have asked for.
[/ QUOTE ]
I haven't been here nearly as long, but I'm with ya... I'm tired of people sounding like spoiled kids. Go! It was nice having you while you were here and I appreciate any of you that I've had the chance to team with. If you decide to return, I'll be waiting for you.
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Your attitude seems to match that of the developers.
However, some of these "spoiled kids" have been [u]paying customers[u] since game launch. And the game developers, at least, should know that fewer people return than leave as they depart for other MMOs.
And as it is said in the business world, it "only takes seconds to lose a customer". In MMOs it takes more than that, because the customers are more loyal. Correspondingly, they are also the more bitter for it when they do leave.
55 months played, my husband and I bought a Lifetime LOTRO Memberships last night. We haven't left COH, as I still play the game, but he will let his game account go inactive.
The attitude demonstrated in the give and take of this issue's changes, player response, and the developer response in turn really stomped hard on my 4-year long warm fuzzy feeling. I'm no longer a "FanGirl".
When I left EQ to play COH it was with no hard feelings at all, EQ was great fun, and I came to COH because I loved the game immediately upon my first time sitting down to play. I never looked back. If I leave COH, it will be with hard feelings. Some of them will have been put there by developer posts telling me that "I was someone they wouldn't have kept anyway." That can't be more untrue.
Edited for typo.
Edit/add: By my count, between subscription, boxed sets, Valentines Day and Cyborg pack I've spent $930 so far on this game. I also bought a new computer to play it on, the old one just wasn't good enough. I renew at 6 month intervals, at one time that was at 1 year intervals. I think that qualifies as "loyal customer", only recently did I even consider another game, and it was this upcoming issue changes and the developer/player relationship that led me to do so.
Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes. - Sweet_Sarah
BOYCOTT NCSoft (on Facebook)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/517513781597443/
Governments have fallen to the power of social media. Gaming companies can too.
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The changes to PvP are being made "because" so few people engage in it. The vast "Majority" avoids PvP. They Devs are listening to people, just not the ones that think things are working properly.
BTW. The "Masses" dont post in the Forums. The "Masses" are PLing and farming because they dont want to get ganked by another over powered brute or scrap. If the system worked there would be a much larger PvP community.
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If you think tanks and scrappers were what was broken with pvp, then I'm guessing you didn't pvp much...
And if you were getting 'ganked' by them, maybe that is as it should be...
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"Here's where things begin to disconnect in my view. In I13, Positron is looking forward to see how his dominator can compete. Doesn't he realize that this is already one of the most powerful builds?"
I was wondering the same thing. It seems like they didn't even have a grasp of how pvp WAS, maybe that is the problem.
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He meant his personal dominator I am sure, which is Plant/Fire. Not terrible but still decent
Yea, I'm not too eager on the reduced rewards thing. To me, that gives me no real reason to play player created missions at all if I can just run dev created missions for full rewards. What's the point?
I'm not looking to see if theres any 'zomg he's totally creative in this mission!' as, for the most part I'm sure, we'll be restricted to creating the same basic missions we've been running for how long now? Kill 'em all, kill the BOSS, find the SHINEY, lead the retard OUT, and so on. As such, theres nothing really NEW about it, other than it slowing down my leveling process.
Kind of ironic that Positron basically reiterated the point that the existing pvp community does not matter right after poor LightHouse had to post a retraction. Also ironic that LH is no longer listed as a mod... doncha think?
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Kind of ironic that Positron basically reiterated the point that the existing pvp community does not matter right after poor LightHouse had to post a retraction. Also ironic that LH is no longer listed as a mod... doncha think?
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Lighthouse's entry still shows as "Community Relations Manager"
Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes. - Sweet_Sarah
BOYCOTT NCSoft (on Facebook)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/517513781597443/
Governments have fallen to the power of social media. Gaming companies can too.
Lol, when he said Early 2009 for I14, hope he meant early. Anxious to make my own Story Arc.
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Matt Miller: Mission Architect is a strong enough feature that it can, and should, stand on its own for an issue. We are very excited to see what the players come up with!
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*cancels subscription, waits for more interesting issues*
No interest in MA at all.
Dooooom!