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the run away AI is annoying, but as much as it pains me to say it.....
ISNT THAT WHAT WE DO?
[/ QUOTE ]Yeah we do, but do we run away the second a hellion smacks us inside a mission for barely any health and then eventually wander back and wait to be pounded on?
Global - @Proton Sentinel
Jack Devon Crab Spider VEAT; Virtue
Mordigen Earth/Storm on Liberty and Virtue
Technological Terror Bots/FF; Liberty.
50s: Zul Vakirol Thugs/Poison; Virtue. Kiyujin Katana/SR
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Ok, I'm new, so take my opinion for what it's worth.
If you were snagging some old lady's purse...and Superman showed up and punched you in the face...would you turn and face him for a showdown or haul outta there?
To me it adds a bit of realism...it ain't easy to chase 'em down...but it seems to me to make sense.
This from a guy who is level 6 and has played 4 hours. 
Sooo...feel free to discount this post as you feel is appropriate.
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The problem isn't realism or a lack thereof.
The problem is that this isn't how we were told the run code was supposed to work. An enemy is only supposed to run if it takes a significant amount of damage, or if it misses several times in a row. Enemies are not supposed to run away the instant you use a debuff on them.
It's also a problem because some of those enemies don't come back until the game resets them to default behavior, and when that happens, they walk back. Slowly. In a "Defeat all" mission, the type of mission that comprises the majority of missions in the game, it can add a ridiculous amount of time. There's no acceptable reason, not even realism, for making us spend an hour on a mission that should take ten to twenty minutes, or forcing us to go back and scour the map two or three times to find all of the runners, especially when the reason is messed up run code.
The foundation of this game's style and play is speed. Fast combat, fast travel, fast missions. Broken run code ruins that foundation, and the experience we have playing the game. When you also consider that the problem doesn't appear to affect all enemies, it means players gradually discover which things are most annoying, like missions with enemies who run away when they aren't supposed to, and avoid that content. Avoided content is wasted content, and a net loss for the players as well because they're forced to skip some things that they could have enjoyed.
Realism is a noble goal to strive for, but not at the expense of fun and efficiency.
And, by the way, some of those enemies you attack on the streets as a low level player, they ARE supposed to run away as soon as they see you. That's why you get extra influence for chasing them down and beating the tar out of them. You aren't arresting pushers and muggers in the later levels, you're fighting much more dangerous opponents, and realistically, they're not going to run away when they have superior numbers and powers which can rival (and in some cases, dwarf) your own.
Just to pipe up for the more than slightly borked AI, I ran into what can only be termed a bug just earlier.
Mission: Defeat Dr. Quatrexin
Difficulty: Relentless
The team was composed of a level 43 mastermind, a 35 mastermind sidecicked, and a level 41 bane spider. The 35 mastermind was lackeyed to the 41 bane, whose mission it was.
Dr. Quatrexin, when aggroed, just ran. That's it. I, the 43 mastermind, had forcefielded the group in preparation for the battle, as Dr. Quatrexin was a 43 AV. I counted around 5 attacks he fired off over the next period, as he took off like he'd seen a ghost when we entered his line of sight. he just ran. he jumped the balcony, ran around the room, climbed the ramps back to the second floor balcony, jumped down, repeated. Only a couple times when my robots surrounded him did he respond...he even managed to jump up into the warehouse rafters for a bit. The guy would simply not stand and fight. Oddly enough, the malta around him did not do this. Also, I should note that previous times I had done the mission, (prior to the latest issue) Dr. Quatrexin did not behave in this way, he stood his ground, even giving chase against team members. This behavior should be looked into, and if it is intended, it needs to be refined.
Ok, so I was playing the other day and I finally figured out what it was about the run AI that is broken for me and why it feels clunky.
Supression. Yup that's it. In a battle especially defeat alls and prevent X from escaping (the prevent 30 fir bolg from escaping mission is a good example) supression is the problem.
Mob A attacks you. You retaliate (maybe with an attack that takes 2 or 3 seconds to animate) and the AI causes the mob to run just as you begin the animation. By the time you can attack again the mob is 80 or more feet away and out of the range of even most ranged attacks.
Your only option is to give chase and the mob is steaming away at full speed [u]because they aren't supressed.[u] Because you do supress, you will never be able to catch a mob before it gets away if you can't burst them to defeat just before the run AI kicks in.
It's annoying in the same way that the old stun bug was. A mob could still run away at full speed even if they were stunned simply because if you hit them while they were in motion their movement didn't supress.
Supression is a counter intuitive mechanic and at least for me has always been immersion breaking. I understand why it's in there but to be honest supression should apply to the mobs as well. It would then at least be consistant and many of the major annoyances with supression would be minimized.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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It's annoying in the same way that the old stun bug was. A mob could still run away at full speed even if they were stunned simply because if you hit them while they were in motion their movement didn't supress.
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Got news for you, that old stun bug STILL exists. It's esp bad on DE and Warwolves, both of whome seem to actually stagger faster than they run.
When we get stunned our move is capped at like 3 mph stagger speed...I see no reason why our Stuns can't include the same thing. Forget about balance...watching a creature stagger faster than I can Sprint is insanely stupid.
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
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The Thorn Casters always, and that's not hyperbole, run away and often all the way across the floor map. The Council are almost as bad. And don't be me started on how much the Croatoa witches run away, argh. For us melee folks this is incredibly unfun and frustrating.
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These are ranged mobs playing smart. Challenging and bugged are not synonyms. As far as I can tell, a lot of the moaning on this thread is that the mobs are not stupid enough or easy enough to kill. It may be "annoying" that Croatoa witches refuse to herd, but it's good strategy on their part, not a bug.
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The Thorn Casters always, and that's not hyperbole, run away and often all the way across the floor map. The Council are almost as bad. And don't be me started on how much the Croatoa witches run away, argh. For us melee folks this is incredibly unfun and frustrating.
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These are ranged mobs playing smart. Challenging and bugged are not synonyms. As far as I can tell, a lot of the moaning on this thread is that the mobs are not stupid enough or easy enough to kill. It may be "annoying" that Croatoa witches refuse to herd, but it's good strategy on their part, not a bug.
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If you read through the whole thread instead of just the last post you will find some good examples of Mobs running that should not.
Dont be so fast to assume that people are just being stupid or lazy. I have seen some examples of broken Mob AI myself and it can be frustrating.
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The Thorn Casters always, and that's not hyperbole, run away and often all the way across the floor map. The Council are almost as bad. And don't be me started on how much the Croatoa witches run away, argh. For us melee folks this is incredibly unfun and frustrating.
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These are ranged mobs playing smart. Challenging and bugged are not synonyms.
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I haven't tested the Cabal critters, but I can attest to Ice Thorn Casters running away without using any of their ranged attacks when I hit them with Glue Arrow. If they were "playing smart", they'd attack at least once before or during their mad slow-mo dash for the far end of the map.
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As far as I can tell, a lot of the moaning on this thread is that the mobs are not stupid enough or easy enough to kill.
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People are pointing out that enemies are running away without offering any fight at all, asking for this AI bug to be fixed so we can get back to fair, challenging fights instead of taking free shots at them while they run, and you equate that with petulant whining about wanting the game to be easier?
What, is it opposite day or something?
QR
LOL it is actually crazy "to me" that 25 months after I started this game a mob AI runaway thread is still here and it has not been fixed.
I would not be surprised if they were still asking for conformation videos. Brilliant!
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Saw it again yesterday. Fighting Dr Quextrian (sure I've botched the name...redside AV in the Black Scorpion Patron Arc) yesterday. I TAPPED him with an attack and he turns and flees the length of the warehouse map. Once I noticed that he was running past other spawns I slowed down, dealt with those spawns and then tapped him again when he returned. Again he fled after taking about 100 points of his many thousands of health.
I finally finished the mission by inviting several friends and cornering him at the far end of the warehouse. I could have defeated him solo if he were able to be slowed/held/immobilized or if he would stand still after getting a boo boo.
I also discovered that mobs will run when they are reduced to 0 End for whatever reason. Not run away until they get some End and can attack but run away and HIDE on occasion. Isn't this particularly bad for those that have End draining Powers? I was under the impression that draining their End was damage mitigation but now if I try it everyone says 'Don't drop their End to zero or they'll scatter!'
So now our tactics are being dictated on stupid AI code? Please!
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
are you guys afraid of a challenge or something? Yeah alot of them run away when they're close to bein defeated, but that just adds to the game. Think if they really exsisted they would just stand there and let you pound on them? No they wouldn't. If you start to lose do you just sit there and take it? Maybe if you're a noob or somethin, but generally no you try to do other things to stay alive.
There's this lil button on your keyboard that has you follow the enemy...press "F" and then your next attack and as soon as you get in range, cause you're faster (unless you're usin hover), you'll do the attack
I say keep it, it adds to the game. I like the challenge and the fact that the victory's not just handed to you. I like earning what I get, my levels and my respect.
I love for my team mates to feel free to use whatever powers they want. Running away isnt the problem. if they run, they die tired. if they dont run, and they arent crushed under my heel, then they go flying, usually at fatal speeds. survivors are often chased down and slaughtered like the helpless victims they are. Let them run away crying and go tell their freinds about the horrible things that come their way. know how the carnies scream when they are defeated? runners should go boo hooing when they bail. I love to play with my food. a running mob is no match for Taunt . nomnomnomnom 
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
You either just do not get it, or haven't read this entire thread. When the purse snatcher/mugger or dope/weapons seller runs, it is expected. There is even a bonus for breaking up the deal, or being thanked.
What is relativly new, and being complained about is foes running for the hills as soon as a dubuff is applied, before the first hit sometimes. Or just shortly after said first hit.
More importnat, this running is NOT intended, and new since issue 12. This is a serious problem for anchor debuffs. It is also a serious problem for melee fighters with a debuff to any of their shield/damage fields.
Foes have run when below 25% of life since forever, but running at 95%+ is new different and frustrating, especialy on defeat alls.
You also seem to miss the little fact that chasing runners aggroes other spawns, as well as anchored debuffs that are taken through other spawns. One runner with a debuff field can pull aggro from a whole room, and then some.
Explain why a purple freakshow tank should run for the hills when the first hit lands, taking an awesome 4% of their hitpoints? If you are hitting them with dark melee, the acc debuff can do that.
Dr Tanaka 50 Stone/Stone Tank
Cool MacCool 50 AR/Ice Blaster
Cold MacCool 50 ice/ice Blaster
Alura Darkstone 41 Brute Dark/Stone
Dr Akanat 40 Brute Stone/Stone
and many more
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are you guys afraid of a challenge or something? Yeah alot of them run away when they're close to bein defeated, but that just adds to the game. Think if they really exsisted they would just stand there and let you pound on them? No they wouldn't. If you start to lose do you just sit there and take it? Maybe if you're a noob or somethin, but generally no you try to do other things to stay alive.
There's this lil button on your keyboard that has you follow the enemy...press "F" and then your next attack and as soon as you get in range, cause you're faster (unless you're usin hover), you'll do the attack
I say keep it, it adds to the game. I like the challenge and the fact that the victory's not just handed to you. I like earning what I get, my levels and my respect.
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If the run AI was only when they got low on health then that would be one thing, but it's not. They can take a sliver amount of health and then run. Many times including running past a number of mobs which you do not want to have follow on. If you are facing something that has a number of hit points, ie an EB, then this can be far more annoying than challenging. I have had to drop down the diff setting to the initial setting solely because the run AI had my target taking a single hit in the hallway I was at and then instantly running back into the main room that had numerous mobs in it. I attack, they run, I wait. I attack, they run, I wait. I attack, they run, I wait. Trust me, this is far more than just "Let's make them run in a realistic way."
Sometimes, they run before even taking damage.
There is something especially amusing about hitting a minion troll or freakshow beside a Troll Ogre or Freak Tank, only to see the Tank or Ogre run for the hills.
Bosses seem the biggest cowards. Unless it's them acting to smart. We've been running a MM heavy team lately and they really seem to actively try to pull pets to aggro other mobs. Range heavy bosses Like Longbow Officers and CoT mages always run to max range if they can which is understandable, if annoying but melee heavy bosses often act like they're tanks trying to herd pets and ranged attacks into other groups.
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Challenging and bugged are not synonyms. As far as I can tell, a lot of the moaning on this thread is that the mobs are not stupid enough or easy enough to kill.
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There is a difference in challenge and annoyance. This behavior doesn't make the vast majority of foes any more challenging. It just makes it take longer to kill them. It's not like most of them just fall back to range and pelt you - they just plain run the hell away. When a mob runs so far and fast that it loses aggro, it's not being challenging. That's full retreat.
Worse, in my opinion, is that it's ruinous to any remote sense of immersion. Having a mob running at the mouth about how you're no match for it while it runs at the legs at top speed is ludicrous. Worse yet is when it's things like GMs or AVs. Having the Ghost of Scrapyard yell "Kick [censored]!" while he runs so vigorously from you that he drones himself is idiotic.
No one is complaining about tactically smart movement. If mobs spread out some to avoid AoEs or just moved around a bit to get out of melee, that'd be different. That's not what most of them are doing.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Maybe this would be a good place to have a thread on what Mob AI should be?
- I think critters that are anchors trying to herd you into other spawns makes sense.
- Breaking off combat when you can't hit your foe (the critter notices his toHit % is below 10%) also makes sense, etc.
If critters aren't going to flee when they 'realize' they can't win, they should probably surrender. Of course, such coding would make critters easier to defeat and thus worth fewer/less rewards...
...it's an interesting subject.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Well, just got finished chasing the Kronos class titan from 1 end of founders falls to the other and back again. And for the first 2 minutes of the marathon there was no debuffs on him, just me solo, a FM/SR scrapper, Totally UNFUN.
The more people I meet, the more I'm beginning to root for the zombies.
On our last Master RSF, with only Statesman remaining (we had slept the heroes and whittled down to States), we toggled our debuffs on him, and attacked... At about 50% health he ran for the hills, completely out of visible range, and didn't come back for about 2 minutes. A hero, seriously?
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the run away AI is annoying, but as much as it pains me to say it.....
ISNT THAT WHAT WE DO?
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Um... no. At least not me.
I'm pretty much a "do or die" kinda player. If I know I'm going to lose a fight, I trigger Self Destruct and take as many of them with me as I can!
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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The Family hitmen are the worst. They usually run the second you draw aggro on them, and they have an insane range on their weapons and will snipe you from two spawns away. Whenever I fight family, I desperately try to knockdown/hold/whatever hitmen so they don't go running off and make me chase them all over the map.
I was solo'ing the rikti Wargod mission, and that AV just kept running all over the place. I had rescued all the NPC allies and intended to use them to help with damage output and aggro management, but when the AV started running all over the multi-tiered map, the AI for my NPC allies wasn't smart enough to follow him or I and it was just impossible. He'd take a few hundred points which didn't even visibly dent his health, and then run all over like a kangaroo on speed jumping from tier to tier and running all over the room. I just quit the mission.
The enemy AI being "run all over like a crazed monkey" is really high on my list of Most Annoying Things In This Game.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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The Family hitmen are the worst. They usually run the second you draw aggro on them, and they have an insane range on their weapons and will snipe you from two spawns away. Whenever I fight family, I desperately try to knockdown/hold/whatever hitmen so they don't go running off and make me chase them all over the map.
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The Hitmen are actually programmed to do this. They have no melee attack to speak of and have been programmed to stay at range to the player.
Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage
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The Family hitmen are the worst. They usually run the second you draw aggro on them, and they have an insane range on their weapons and will snipe you from two spawns away. Whenever I fight family, I desperately try to knockdown/hold/whatever hitmen so they don't go running off and make me chase them all over the map.
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The Hitmen are actually programmed to do this. They have no melee attack to speak of and have been programmed to stay at range to the player.
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That doesn't make it any less annoying.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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the run away AI is annoying, but as much as it pains me to say it.....
ISNT THAT WHAT WE DO?
@LKN-351
Pinnacle