Discussion: Get the "Real Numbers!"
By
Amarsir,
Posted on: 2008-02-12 09:36 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
[ QUOTE ]
Wow. My first quote from a redname. Granted its a simple answer but still. Now how bout my 2 Impervious skins 7.5%'s not giving 15% and only giving 13.04% resistance question?
[/ QUOTE ]
I already answered that.
[ QUOTE ]
That's because of how Mez resistance works. The effective mez duration becomes Base_Duration/(1+Mez_Resistance), so with 15% (2*7.5%) mez resistance, you get X/(1+.15) = .8696X, or a decrease of (1-.8696) = .1304, or 13.04%.
In other words, everything is working just fine, it's just that the IO descriptions show how much Mez Resistance they give, and the Combat Attributes window shows how much of a reduction that Resistance results in.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow. My first quote from a redname. Granted its a simple answer but still. Now how bout my 2 Impervious skins 7.5%'s not giving 15% and only giving 13.04% resistance question?
[/ QUOTE ]
I already answered that.
[ QUOTE ]
That's because of how Mez resistance works. The effective mez duration becomes Base_Duration/(1+Mez_Resistance), so with 15% (2*7.5%) mez resistance, you get X/(1+.15) = .8696X, or a decrease of (1-.8696) = .1304, or 13.04%.
In other words, everything is working just fine, it's just that the IO descriptions show how much Mez Resistance they give, and the Combat Attributes window shows how much of a reduction that Resistance results in.
[/ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry missed that part. I'll take your word for it. I get lost with all the math people come up with. Looking at it, x/(1+.15) to me would be essentially x/(1.15) which would then be 1.15x. And what are you using for X? Base_Duration? What is the base duration? wouldn't it be 1.0? Or 100% duration? And decreasing that by 15% would be 85%? And if we're supposed to be getting "real numbers", then why are we expected to know the theories behind the math in order to actually get these "real numbers"?
On second thought, nevermind. Don't answer. My brain hurts. All I know is it decreases it. Yay.
[ QUOTE ]
And if we're supposed to be getting "real numbers", then why are we expected to know the theories behind the math in order to actually get these "real numbers"?
[/ QUOTE ]
In an attempt to minimize brain-hurt, I will only answer this question.
To make sure that we don't need to know the mechanics behind how mez resistance works, the Combat Attributes window directly shows how much your Mez resistance reduces the effective mez duration, thus removing the need for any calculations on our part. If it shows that mez duration is reduced by 20%, the mez duration is indeed reduced by 20%. No need for math.
(Maybe I should add that the per-power reduction information is only correct if it is the only power that gives a mez resistance of that type. If you have two or more powers giving mez resistance of the same type, the values shown for both will be incorrect. The total value will always be correct though. Sorry, I'll stop now. 
)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And if we're supposed to be getting "real numbers", then why are we expected to know the theories behind the math in order to actually get these "real numbers"?
[/ QUOTE ]
In an attempt to minimize brain-hurt, I will only answer this question.
To make sure that we don't need to know the mechanics behind how mez resistance works, the Combat Attributes window directly shows how much your Mez resistance reduces the effective mez duration, thus removing the need for any calculations on our part. If it shows that mez duration is reduced by 20%, the mez duration is indeed reduced by 20%. No need for math.
(Maybe I should add that the per-power reduction information is only correct if it is the only power that gives a mez resistance of that type. If you have two or more powers giving mez resistance of the same type, the values shown for both will be incorrect. The total value will always be correct though. Sorry, I'll stop now. )
[/ QUOTE ]
TY for the insight Star. I have the Aegis 20% resistance to all mezz effects slotted along with Impervious' 7.5, however only the impervious 7.5% is showing up in the window and i only get a 12% decrease in mezz duration from impervious and something called 'Large Status Resistance Bonus' from Unstoppable. Even though i have aegis slotted into Unstoppable, it should be on all the time. Is my Aegis working correctly but just doesn't show up in the attribute window? Is this may be a bug?
[ QUOTE ]
I have the Aegis 20% resistance to all mezz effects slotted along with Impervious' 7.5, however only the impervious 7.5% is showing up in the window and i only get a 12% decrease in mezz duration from impervious and something called 'Large Status Resistance Bonus' from Unstoppable. Even though i have aegis slotted into Unstoppable, it should be on all the time. Is my Aegis working correctly but just doesn't show up in the attribute window? Is this may be a bug?
[/ QUOTE ]
Funny you should mention this, because I just looked at it today...
The Aegis psi/mez resistance is *supposed* to work as a set bonus, and thus be on all the time, regardless of if you use the power or not.
This is indeed how the Psi resistance part works, but *not* how the mez resistance part works.
The mez resistance part is a very unique creature.
It is indeed a "set bonus", but instead of being activated for just being slotted in the power, it is triggered by activating the power. So the mez resistance bonus is only activated once you activate the power. It is neither a "proc" or a "set bonus", but a rather interesting mix of the two.
That's odd thing number 1. Here's number two:
The mez resistance is not 20%, it is 5%.
Here's odd thing number 3:
It stacks with itself. Every time the power is activated, one more set bonus is added, and your mez resistance increases by 5% every time. Since there's a limit to 5 set bonuses of the same type, you can get up to 5 mez resistance set bonuses from the Aegis IO, each for 5%, bringing the maximum total to 25%.
So in your case, you actually have to activate Unstoppable 5 times to get the full mez resistance (and one time to get any mez resistance at all). If it is slotted in a toggle/passive, the mez resistance will increase in 5% increments until it reaches the 25% max.
A very odd creature indeed....
edit: I should add that these set bonuses are reset when you zone, so with it slotted in Unstoppable, you are probably unlikely to see the max 25% Resistance very often. If you use tier 9s like me, you're probably unlikely to see any resistance often at all.
edit 2: The "Large Status Resistance Bonus" is indeed the mez resistance set bonus from Aegis. If used enough, you'll eventually get 5 of these in your powers info page.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have the Aegis 20% resistance to all mezz effects slotted along with Impervious' 7.5, however only the impervious 7.5% is showing up in the window and i only get a 12% decrease in mezz duration from impervious and something called 'Large Status Resistance Bonus' from Unstoppable. Even though i have aegis slotted into Unstoppable, it should be on all the time. Is my Aegis working correctly but just doesn't show up in the attribute window? Is this may be a bug?
[/ QUOTE ]
Funny you should mention this, because I just looked at it today...
The Aegis psi/mez resistance is *supposed* to work as a set bonus, and thus be on all the time, regardless of if you use the power or not.
This is indeed how the Psi resistance part works, but *not* how the mez resistance part works.
The mez resistance part is a very unique creature.
It is indeed a "set bonus", but instead of being activated for just being slotted in the power, it is triggered by activating the power. So the mez resistance bonus is only activated once you activate the power. It is neither a "proc" or a "set bonus", but a rather interesting mix of the two.
That's odd thing number 1. Here's number two:
The mez resistance is not 20%, it is 5%.
Here's odd thing number 3:
It stacks with itself. Every time the power is activated, one more set bonus is added, and your mez resistance increases by 5% every time. Since there's a limit to 5 set bonuses of the same type, you can get up to 5 mez resistance set bonuses from the Aegis IO, each for 5%, bringing the maximum total to 25%.
So in your case, you actually have to activate Unstoppable 5 times to get the full mez resistance (and one time to get any mez resistance at all). If it is slotted in a toggle/passive, the mez resistance will increase in 5% increments until it reaches the 25% max.
A very odd creature indeed....
[/ QUOTE ]
OH SHHHnaPP!!! that's Super educational to me. TYVM you just saved me a valuable respec.
The Combat Attributes window is sooooo beautiful. I can't stop staring at it. So pretty. So hypnotic. Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou.
Please try MA arc ID 351455, "Shard Stories: Scavenger's Hunt." Originally created for the Dr. Aeon contest, it explores the wild potential of one of the City's most concept-rich but content-poor settings: the Shadow Shard.
Great feature so far, thanks!
I'd also like to see the Endurance Usage broken down n the combat stats window. Toons with toggles want to know!
A few things I found about the "real numbers" displays last night as well as a wish item: (I'm sure these have already been found, but just in case, I bugged them once).
1) The display icons at the top of the screen showing what powers/buffs/debuffs you have applied to you are not displaying correctly.
- If it's your own power, the info screen is showing as if it's an external effect being applied to you.
- Example: when I turn on my hurricane, the text reads along the lines of "Your accuracy and range have been reduced by the hurricane winds". when I turn on my Icicles power, it says that I'm the one taking damage.
- Because the power seems to think that I'm the target and not the originator, it's not showing the actual numbers the way that other powers are (Fly for instance shows my speed)
2) Speaking of Fly - the display icon shows me as travelling at 82.94 mph, while the combat attribute screen shows me at 41.36 mph. I'm certainly not going 82+ mph, that's for certain (and it's NOT an exact doubling, that would be too easy to explain )
----
Wish items: While I don't expect to get these, they would be really, really nice to have.
1) A way to see the real numbers associated with particular powers. I'd like to see the accuracy, damage, recharge, etc of individual powers (especially combat powers) and not just the overall "stats" of the character. This applies especially to buff/debuff type powers, as they don't have even the minimal amount of info that's in the combat tab that attack powers have. (ie I turn on Snow Storm and all it says is "you slow your opponents", I'd like the numbers on how much).
2) A way to seperate out a particular power and put it in the monitoring windows so I could watch it's effects. It would be great if it could also tell me when a particular proc goes off attached to the power as well.
(and yes, I do have all [most at least] of that information from various outside sources [herostats, builders, etc], but I'd like it to be in-game, as long as we're trying to make the 'real numbers' visible).
6000+ levels gained and 8 level 50's
Hello, my name is Soulwind and I have Alt-Itis.
Totally awesome update.
I wasn't able to play for long last night but the little that I did was spent just pressing different powers and watching the numbers change. My main is an SS/Stone and so I took great pleasure in watching my various numbers change depending on whether I used rage, hasten, rooted, and granite (in different combinations). (And that's an example of course).
I was reviewing the numbers on my DA/EA Brute and I noticed that Entropy Shield is displaying a value of 0 for Teleport Protection. Is this a display bug or is Entropy Shield's Teleport Protection bugged?
Sir Zane (Lvl 50, Inv/SS/Nrg Tank);Atomic Jake (Lvl 50, Kin/Rad/Elec Defender)
Nikolai (Lvl 50, DM/EA/GW Brute);Raging Stallion (Lvl 50 MA/SR/Weap Scrapper)
Archmage Tristam (Lvl 50 Ill/Son/Psi Controller)
--------------------------------------------------------------
-g=C800:5
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this may be close to what pohsyb's comment meant, but only the man himself could say for certain.
[/ QUOTE ]
I saw the ToHit buff from Dark Nova was 7.5% and decided it wasn't worth putting a tohit IO there at level 10.
[/ QUOTE ]
I saw that the endurance recovery buff was only .25% and decided to switch over to ToHit buffs.
[ QUOTE ]
The Combat Attributes window is sooooo beautiful. I can't stop staring at it. So pretty. So hypnotic. Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT. I had to put my current hit points in all my monitor windows because I was spending so much time watching the beautiful numbers I was neglecting to watch my green bar. Oops!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
English does not borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and rifles through their pockets for loose grammar.
|
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would agree if something was broke, but since nothing was broke, nothing needed fixing
[/ QUOTE ]
You are either being disingenuous or else are very clueless. There was a massive exploit there, and I'm really glad it's fixed now.
[/ QUOTE ]
I know exactly how it worked, and in my opinion nothing was wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then you have a very clueless and completely out-of-touch opinion.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please tell me why that is so, because my opinion isn't the same as yours?
I forgot your opinion and outlook on the game is the only one that counts.
*wish they had a shaking head smiley*
[/ QUOTE ]
You're entitled to your opinion, even when it's wrong 
[ QUOTE ]
2) Speaking of Fly - the display icon shows me as travelling at 82.94 mph, while the combat attribute screen shows me at 41.36 mph. I'm certainly not going 82+ mph, that's for certain (and it's NOT an exact doubling, that would be too easy to explain )
[/ QUOTE ]
When viewing the info of a power from the buff bar, the display seems to show the sum of the buff given by the power and your base value for that attribute.
Take Combat Jumping for example. If your base Jumping Speed is 14.32 mph, and the Jumping Speed given by Combat Jumping is 0.14 mph, then the buff bar info for Combat Jumping will show 14.46 mph.
It's not really intuitive, and I hope that it's changed to show the same values as the Combat Attributes window.
Fly speed displays seem to have some additional oddities to them (base flying speed isn't as high as the flying speed given by Fly for instance), but the base+buff thing seems to be at least part of it (and affects tons of other powers).
Showing the numbers has shown some problems. For example, I have 4 of the Psi Resist IOs from the Impervium Armor set on a character and the monitor window displays that the character has 9.0% psi resist, instead of the 12% that they should have.
It is annoying to see the regeneration rate go to 0% when hit by certain powers. I knew that that already happened but it's really bad to see the nice regen rate disappear.
-Words cannot express how I fell nor pictures. I feel nothing but sadness.
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, Havent been on the game yet, but I just finished checking out the patch notes... everything looks ok, but this caught my eye.
"Taunt Aura powers, such as Invincibility, no longer accept Taunt IO Set Enhancements. "
Is this a joke? Am I reading this right!? No taunt IO sets in taunt auras?!?!?! What's up with that?!?!?!
I tought taunt IO sets were MADE for taunt powers. Taunt toggles being THE ONLY powers that could justify 6 slotting a taunt IO set. I mean, who is going to 6 slot taunt?!
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with the first part... but in answer to the second question, such tanks exist.
I did. I six slotted taunt, and have had taunt 6-slotted since the 20s on my tank long before IOs, 2 range/2 taunt/2 recharge. The ability to consistently peel a group of mobs off the silly blaster all the way across a large cave while maintaining aggro on the first group with 6-slotted invincibility and 6-slotted whirling hands and 3 slotted barrage (each of those with 1 taunt in it) was important to me. With enough focus on taunt, I didn't need to "herd", these powers brought it all to ME.
Still, taunt sets no longer going into taunt auras makes me sad. /respec please. 
Big kudos on the Combat Attributes - I love seeing what my powers and enhancement sets are doing, and the live changes as I play.
Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes. - Sweet_Sarah
BOYCOTT NCSoft (on Facebook)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/517513781597443/
Governments have fallen to the power of social media. Gaming companies can too.
[ QUOTE ]
Showing the numbers has shown some problems. For example, I have 4 of the Psi Resist IOs from the Impervium Armor set on a character and the monitor window displays that the character has 9.0% psi resist, instead of the 12% that they should have.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, that's weird. The 3% Resistance bonus is a set bonus, and should thus stack up to 5 times. You don't happen to be exemplared below the level of one of the IOs, either through "normal" means, or by being on a Task Force, Flashback mission or being in a PvP zone, do you?
[ QUOTE ]
How do I select a target and use a power it, my ToHit attribute should not change? To show the real chance to hit the target with the attack chosen?
[/ QUOTE ] The Q&A in the feature's page talks about this. Part of the reason why we have the tohitt rolls showing up in the combat spam now.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2) Speaking of Fly - the display icon shows me as travelling at 82.94 mph, while the combat attribute screen shows me at 41.36 mph. I'm certainly not going 82+ mph, that's for certain (and it's NOT an exact doubling, that would be too easy to explain )
[/ QUOTE ]
When viewing the info of a power from the buff bar, the display seems to show the sum of the buff given by the power and your base value for that attribute.
Take Combat Jumping for example. If your base Jumping Speed is 14.32 mph, and the Jumping Speed given by Combat Jumping is 0.14 mph, then the buff bar info for Combat Jumping will show 14.46 mph.
It's not really intuitive, and I hope that it's changed to show the same values as the Combat Attributes window.
Fly speed displays seem to have some additional oddities to them (base flying speed isn't as high as the flying speed given by Fly for instance), but the base+buff thing seems to be at least part of it (and affects tons of other powers).
[/ QUOTE ]
I see what you mean, but I think it's a little more than that.
In your example, I would expect to see 14.46 as that's the total value of my base+buffs and IS my actual speed.
When I look at the attribute window while flying it shows me my base fly speed, the bonus fly is adding, the bonus swift is adding, and the total of those. The total is the 41.36 mph I mentioned.
The icon display (where it's supposed to be showing me the effects of the powers) is showing 82.94 mph.
Now that I think about it..it might be showing me my base fly speed + fly's buff + the grand total again (while missing the buff from swift) rather than base+fly buff+swift buff (like maybe the index counter is off and it's picking up the wrong value). I think that might match up to the numbers I saw last night, but I'll have to double check.
(of course this might be exactly what you meant, and I just didn't comprehend you correctly)
6000+ levels gained and 8 level 50's
Hello, my name is Soulwind and I have Alt-Itis.
Okay, this is good, but there's a problem.
It doesn't show you the power numbers BEFORE you take the power. You have to spend the time to get to the power and take it before you know what it does. I believe this is the main problem that people had with the former policy of not revealing the numbers (I know it was mine), namely that you made power choices blindly. Unfortunately, even though the game shows you numbers, you are still making power choices blindly.
The real numbers for the powers themselves ought to be visible in the power description at character creation and during level up in order to make this complete number revelation.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
I had previously said I had no interest in this real numbers feature because it just doesn't fit my playstyle. But I did find something to like about it.
I download the patch and log into a couple characters to check out the changes that effect them. I decided to check out what the fuss is about this real numbers feature, so I click on it. The first thing that catches my eye is the movement tab. I click and see all the movementy goodness that it tells me about.
So I immediately log into my Super Speed character to see how fast she can go. That's awesome! I've been wanting her to be the fastest she can be for a long time, and now I can see how to make her faster and faster. Soon she's going to be nothing but a blur around Paragon City. Mwahahahahaha!
Thanks, devs, for this real numbers thingy. You proved that there's something in it for everyone... even someone like me who doesn't care about the numbers.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2) Speaking of Fly - the display icon shows me as travelling at 82.94 mph, while the combat attribute screen shows me at 41.36 mph. I'm certainly not going 82+ mph, that's for certain (and it's NOT an exact doubling, that would be too easy to explain )
[/ QUOTE ]
When viewing the info of a power from the buff bar, the display seems to show the sum of the buff given by the power and your base value for that attribute.
Take Combat Jumping for example. If your base Jumping Speed is 14.32 mph, and the Jumping Speed given by Combat Jumping is 0.14 mph, then the buff bar info for Combat Jumping will show 14.46 mph.
It's not really intuitive, and I hope that it's changed to show the same values as the Combat Attributes window.
Fly speed displays seem to have some additional oddities to them (base flying speed isn't as high as the flying speed given by Fly for instance), but the base+buff thing seems to be at least part of it (and affects tons of other powers).
[/ QUOTE ]
I see what you mean, but I think it's a little more than that.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's definitely more than that for Fly/Hover. I've suspected for a while that the fact that Fly/Hover both consist of several separate Fly Speed buffs (most of them non-enhancable) could have something to do with this. Now I think I may have figured out how.
For my slotting of Hover/Fly (+99.1%), I get the following speeds in the Combat Attributes Window:
base: 14.32 mph
Fly: 41.97 mph
Hover: 5.67 mph
When I check the info windows on the buff bar, I get the following speeds:
Fly: 99.25 mph
Hover: 34.3 mph
Now, theory time...
Hover consists of two "buffs", one enhancable increase in Fly speed, and one non-enhancable decrease in Fly Speed (which is why you are really really slow if you don't have Hover slotted). Obviously, the effective Fly Speed increase is the sum of these two values. The CA Window shows this sum. The buff bar info however, shows the sum of what it considers "buffs", i.e. as previously noted buff+base. This means that it considers two effects, base + speed increase and buff + speed decrease. Summing *those* two "buffs" up, we would get effective speed increase + base + base.
Time to test the theory. 2*base + speed increase is 2*14.32 + 5.67 = 34.31, which is what the Hover display shows!
I now added a 20% Fly Speed Enhancement from an empowerment buff, and the Hover values became 8.53 mph from the CA window and 37.17 mph from the buff bar info.
2*14.32 + 8.53 = 37.17, again what the display shows!
So for Hover at least, the theory seems to hold.
Moving on to Fly...
Fly consists of one enhancable Fly Speed buff, two non-enhancable Fly Speed buffs, and one non-enhancable Fly Speed debuff (this is to slow us down while Fly is suppressed).
Using the same theory as for Hover, we could expect 4*base buff + effective speed increase.
This would give 4*14.32 + 41.97 = 99.25, which is what the buff bar info displays!
Again, adding 20% Fly Speed enhancement. The numbers now become 45.88 mph in the CA window, and 103.16 in the buff bar info.
4*14.32 + 45.88 = 103.16. Again, a perfect match!
So, basically it seems like the reason for why the buff bar info shows such odd info for Hover/Fly is this:
1) The buff bar info considers each "buff" as providing buff+base.
2) If a power gives multiple buffs of the same type, the buff bar info sums these up, giving a sum of (buff+base).
3) Hover consists of 2 Fly Speed buffs, and Fly of 4.
This means that the speed that the buff bar info displays for Hover includes the real Hover buff + 2 * base Fly Speed, and that the info for Fly includes the real Fly buff + 4 * base Fly Speed.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Showing the numbers has shown some problems. For example, I have 4 of the Psi Resist IOs from the Impervium Armor set on a character and the monitor window displays that the character has 9.0% psi resist, instead of the 12% that they should have.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, that's weird. The 3% Resistance bonus is a set bonus, and should thus stack up to 5 times. You don't happen to be exemplared below the level of one of the IOs, either through "normal" means, or by being on a Task Force, Flashback mission or being in a PvP zone, do you?
[/ QUOTE ]
No, wasn't exemplared at that time. Was at the auction house and looking the numbers and couldn't figure out why that discrepancy was there.
-Words cannot express how I fell nor pictures. I feel nothing but sadness.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it says "Ultimate Accuracy Bonus" -.70x from self
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats a bug. For now, just add one to any contributer under Accuracy.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow. My first quote from a redname. Granted its a simple answer but still. Now how bout my 2 Impervious skins 7.5%'s not giving 15% and only giving 13.04% resistance question?