[ QUOTE ]
Well, what I said was an FF Defender can increase the damage from their powers by herding.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm assuming that the term "damage boost" refers to "increased damage that does not instantly get you killed".
[ QUOTE ]
I also said that herding for an FF Defender isn't anywhere near as safe as herding for a FFer with a different set. This is because of the way Defender's nukes work, not because of how their FF powers work.
So no, it doesn't contradict my point. It _is_ my point. The performance of Defender's secondaries put the FF Defender at a disadvantage as compared to other FFers.
[/ QUOTE ]
It is not the "performance" of Defender Secondaries that is the problem. It is the "nature" of Defender Secondaries. Defender Secondaries deal damage. That's what they do, deal with it, accept it, that's never going to change.
Now, as for WHY the nature of Defender Secondaries cause them to not mesh well with Force Field, well, you said it yourself, because they don't do enough damage. But did I not already say that Force Field needs a damage boost so its Secondaries can do the same damage other Defenders can do? Would that damage boost then not allow the Defender Secondaries to do what they are intended to do, deal damage, fast enough to deal with the aggro generated by herding?
When a Rad Defender fires off his nuke, does he have a problem with his foes remaining, ready to kill him off while he's vulnerable? If a Kin Defender fires off Fulcrum Shift and then nuke, does he leave any foes standing? Granted those are extreme examples, Dark wouldn't do nearly as much damage, but that's MY point.
You say Force Field doesn't work well with Defender Secondaries because Defender Secondaries don't do enough damage. Well, wouldn't they do more damage if Force Field buffed them?
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, yes, I don't disagree with this at all. And I never would have referred to herding as a way of "buffing damage", I was just using the language of the person to whom you originally responded.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just for the record, I didn't call it a damage buff, I said it's a way to increase damage. Technically, there's a difference.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Cool. Thanks for setting me straight.
Synergy Lvl 50 Def FF/Electric/Psy - Protector
Cimarron - Protector Mascot
My DA Page
[ QUOTE ]
Now, as for WHY the nature of Defender Secondaries cause them to not mesh well with Force Field, well, you said it yourself, because they don't do enough damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
A damage buff to bring Defenders back in line with Blasters was one of the things I suggested, yes. But not the only one, and probably the least important.
Cleaning up Defenders cones and lowering the Endurance drain of their nukes to 85% rather than 100% seem more important to me.
The point being, it's things like this that were the reasons I dropped my FF Defender. It just doesn't stack up to FFers from other ATs, despite having, for the most part, better FF powers.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Since this post has obviously gotten some attention, and even had Castle make an appearance, let's actually talk about some of the ideas for FF and ignore semantic arguments and discussions of Defender secondaries, which anyone with half a brain would know have nothing to do with the earlier discussion of FF.
I'll iterate my own thoughts on how to make FF more fun:
-Swap the values of Dispersion & Deflection/Insulation; this would keep the value of defence offered by a FF the same for the team, but increase the survivability of the FF'er.
-Make Repulsion Bomb activate more quickly, and have a higher chance to stun enemies. Dark Pit is an example of how this power could look and work, with some tweaking of the duration or endurance cost to account for the knockback
-Change Force Bubble into a -res, -speed PBAoE. This would give us a way of increasing our damage solo and on a team and I in my opinion still fit within the theme of FF.
Edit:
Forgot to add:
This post is not endorsed by Magicj; the FF status-quo protector
[ QUOTE ]
But that's not really the point. The /real/ point of this thread is that precious few people see much value in FF past The Big Three and, depending on taste and awareness of the set, one or two other powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
The irony is that the big three are so Big (i.e. capable) that it ought to leave lots of room for power pools and especially secondary powers, and yet FF is considered an offensive penalty. The FF set itself doesn't have a lot of offense, but you'd think a defender that only took three powers in the primary (and they are all good powers), had nothing but 4 minute cycling clicks, and very low endurance burn rate when operating at full efficiency would have a lot of room for offense.
If Super Reflexes were changed to a set that had one toggle with 30% defense to melee/ranged (slotted), one with 30% AoE defense, practiced brawler, and a bunch of crap powers, super reflexes scrappers would complain about having a lot of crap powers but not very loudly. Its a design flaw in FF, but many people would probably love to have that sort of design flaw.
I'm reminded of a peculiarity with defenders, and that is that their defense modifier is the same as tankers, which is significantly higher than other archetypes. Here's an FF defender attempting to build personal protection:
Dispersion Bubble: 10% defense
Weave: 5% defense
Maneuvers: 3.5% defense
Combat Jump: 2.5% defense
Total: 4 toggles, 21% base defense, 0.65 eps unslotted
And here is a Super Reflexes scrapper:
Focused Fighting: 13.875% defense melee
Focused Senses: 13.875% defense ranged
Evasion: 13.875% defense AoE
Dodge: 5.625% defense melee
Agile: 5.625% defense ranged
Lucky: 5.625% defense AoE
Combat Jump: 1.875% defense all
Total: 4 toggles (3 passives), 21.375% defense, 0.42 eps unslotted.
Basically, running the same number of toggles, and less powers overall, an FF defender can amass personal defense within about half a percentage point of slotted defense to an SR scrapper (33.3% for SR, 32.8% for FF), running the same number of toggles, and with a 0.23eps additional endurance cost unslotted; 0.17 eps with just one slot of endurance slotting.
FF can do that without too much trouble, specifically because its primary benefits are so concentrated into just a few powers. This is not intended specifically to claim that FF defenders can be SR scrappers, but rather to note just how high FF can shoot for, comparing it to the benchmark self-defense specialist (if the benchmark self-defense specialist was a blaster or a dominator, I'd compare to that instead: its not a scrapper/defender comparison specifically).
Should FF have to go to power pools to outfit itself? Probably not. But its a powerful option nonetheless.
Also, with maneuvers, the FF defender is applying a combined 28.5% base defense, or 44.5% defense to the team with bubbles and auras - essentially the tohit soft floor: everyone within the range of maneuvers and dispersion bubble is Eluded. That's an enormous amount of buffing in just four powers.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
Just for the record, I didn't call it a damage buff, I said it's a way to increase damage. Technically, there's a difference.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've been using the phrase "damage boost" for the same reason. This includes damage buffs, Resistance debuffs, recharge increases, and technically speaking, Endurance regen, to hit buff, and Defense debuff.
I say "technically speaking" because I think in practice the latter three don't actually boost damage, just the potential for damage in certain conditions. Herding would probably be considered a damage boost, if it was considered such, in the same sense, under those specific conditions.
[ QUOTE ]
The point being, it's things like this that were the reasons I dropped my FF Defender. It just doesn't stack up to FFers from other ATs, despite having, for the most part, better FF powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you think Rad, Dark, and Kin Defenders are all right, or do they need a damage boost? Wouldn't boosting their damage now make them TOO powerful?
All good points Arcana, our buffing for defence vs minions, lieutenants and bosses is par none.
Our knockback is useless in AV or GM fights; +acc powers can shred defence....
I'd just like to see another layer added to FF that can be applied in every fight. Other Defender primaries have -res, -speed, -to hit, -regen, -recharge, damage... FF gets +def and knockback. Another layer would add to what is possible for us to help the team with.
I totally agree with your point about how powerful a FF'ers buffs can be with fairly minimal power choices and slotting. This was one of the reason I loved my FF'er because I loved being able to blast so much.
However, while the design of FF lends itself to that playstyle, the design of FF also prevents us from having the defence necessary to survive that playstyle.
Edit:
This post is not endorsed by Magicj; the FF status-quo protector
[ QUOTE ]
This post is not endorsed by Magicj; the FF status-quo protector
[/ QUOTE ]
True. And here's why....
[ QUOTE ]
-Swap the values of Dispersion & Deflection/Insulation; this would keep the value of defence offered by a FF the same for the team, but increase the survivability of the FF'er.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, this makes herding easier. I'm not speaking for the Devs, but I can't see them implementing this change. Other than that, I have nothing against the idea. In fact, if the Devs want to make it easier for me to herd, I'm all for it.
[ QUOTE ]
-Make Repulsion Bomb activate more quickly, and have a higher chance to stun enemies. Dark Pit is an example of how this power could look and work, with some tweaking of the duration or endurance cost to account for the knockback
[/ QUOTE ]
This suggestion makes RB _weaker_. Dark Pit doesn't effect multiple bosses in 1 shot. If you want Dark Pit, why did you roll an FF Defender?
[ QUOTE ]
-Change Force Bubble into a -res, -speed PBAoE
[/ QUOTE ]
Are we talking about removing the Repel? If so, then once again I think this makes the power weaker. In it's current form Force Bubble is on par with Fulcrum Shift and Mass Confusion for it's ability to turn around a fight. -Res and -Speed aren't going to do that.
Or are we talking about adding -Res and -Speed to one of the better powers in the game because it's needs a buff?
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
The irony is that the big three are so Big (i.e. capable) that it ought to leave lots of room for power pools and especially secondary powers, and yet FF is considered an offensive penalty. The FF set itself doesn't have a lot of offense, but you'd think a defender that only took three powers in the primary (and they are all good powers), had nothing but 4 minute cycling clicks, and very low endurance burn rate when operating at full efficiency would have a lot of room for offense.
If Super Reflexes were changed to a set that had one toggle with 30% defense to melee/ranged (slotted), one with 30% AoE defense, practiced brawler, and a bunch of crap powers, super reflexes scrappers would complain about having a lot of crap powers but not very loudly. Its a design flaw in FF, but many people would probably love to have that sort of design flaw.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's two complicating factors involved with this:
1) The FF Defender cannot bubble himself with two of the "Big Three". So in your example above, the SR scrapper would get a 10% melee/ranged/AoE power, and then another 20% Defense power he could only put on someone else. So essentially he's got 7 "crap powers", not 6... to him, anyway.
2) Scrappers also don't have a penalty to their damage due to the majority of them having an offense boost in their Secondary. So for instance if a Scrapper only had 80% damage, (30% less than 112.5) but all Scrappers but Super Reflexes got a 30% damage boost, then that SR Scrapper would have 80% damage and 10% Defense... not quite enough to solo, I don't think.
Now, granted a Defender doesn't HAVE to solo, but this is one of the things that makes soloing the set so hard, and this is part of why very few players can stick with it. You either have to REALLY want to be a team support character, or you find some way to make do with the "crap" powers that aren't really that useful to your team. (Like Detention Field)
Another point is that most of the defensive powers from the Pool, (Manuevers being the exception) only effect the Defender himself. This clearly has bearing on the solo situation, but it's a power that really doesn't help the FF in a team, except to get his damage mitigation up to a level that matches his teammates.
[ QUOTE ]
-Swap the values of Dispersion & Deflection/Insulation; this would keep the value of defence offered by a FF the same for the team, but increase the survivability of the FF'er.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm on the fence over this type of change. I like what it would mean for the FF Defender character's survivability, but I'm concerned about what it would mean for team members. This is especially true in PvP where it is very difficult to keep players within the radius of Dispersion Bubble.
[ QUOTE ]
-Change Force Bubble into a -res, -speed PBAoE. This would give us a way of increasing our damage solo and on a team and I in my opinion still fit within the theme of FF.
[/ QUOTE ]
As much as I'd love to have a -Res power in FF, I have a hard time rationalizing it. -ACC, ToHitDebuff, -Spd, etc. all work for the power.
- B.
Crey Threat Assessment: Bayne
Virtueverse: Bayne
The Defenders of Paragon
I don't have a hard time rationalizing it; as enemies are fighting their way through the Force Bubble their ability to defend and fend off attacks is reduced. Your attacks now do more damage to enemies affected by the Force Bubble.
Edit:
Someone please inform Magicj that Dark Pit is part of Dark Blast and therefore not mutually exclusive with FF powers. It was also an example of an animation and effect Repulsion Bomb could become more similar to. For someone who harps about Defender secondaries, Magicj has demonstrated limited understanding of how they work.
[ QUOTE ]
+acc powers can shred defence
[/ QUOTE ]
Wrong. +Tohit shreds defense, +Acc does very little to defense. Fortunately +Tohit is rather rare in PvE. Ask anyone who uses purple inspirations to solo EBs or AVs, Defense buffs are great in AV fights.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
[ QUOTE ]
-ACC, ToHitDebuff, -Spd, etc. all work for the power.
[/ QUOTE ]
And Force Bubbble, in practice, already does -Speed. It also does -Damage and -Recharge. It does these things through changes in the AI the baddies use while fighting the Repel of the bubble.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
-Swap the values of Dispersion & Deflection/Insulation; this would keep the value of defence offered by a FF the same for the team, but increase the survivability of the FF'er.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm on the fence over this type of change. I like what it would mean for the FF Defender character's survivability, but I'm concerned about what it would mean for team members. This is especially true in PvP where it is very difficult to keep players within the radius of Dispersion Bubble.
[/ QUOTE ]
I personally prefer simply increasing the portion of the Def for the Force Fielder himself, if that's possible. Or even add a second personal Def (only) shield to some other power like Repulsion Field or Force Bubble.
As for the argument that this would make herding easier, the damage mitigation of a Dark is already superior to an FF with Dispersion Bubble alone. Thus the common statement that "The FFer is the weakest defended player on his team". Since herding typically entails the use of Personal Force Field, which pretty much overrides any lesser Defense, I don't think an additional 10-15% Defense would make herding dramatically easier.
Honestly, though, I'd rather have the damage boost and get my personal defenses from the Power Pool, as Arcanaville suggested.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
-Change Force Bubble into a -res, -speed PBAoE. This would give us a way of increasing our damage solo and on a team and I in my opinion still fit within the theme of FF.
[/ QUOTE ]
As much as I'd love to have a -Res power in FF, I have a hard time rationalizing it. -ACC, ToHitDebuff, -Spd, etc. all work for the power.
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem with Force Bubble is that you can't apply any effects to any foes when they're being flung right back out of the effect. So in order to apply the debuff, you have to either remove the Repel, or reduce its radius. I think it's radius CAN be reduced if you add a Slow effect, as that will keep foes from getting too far into the bubble before they get flung out.
The nice thing about a +Dmg boost, though, is that it can be applied to everyone within the bubble, and it will apply to any damage they apply the foes whether those targets are in the bubble or not. And personally, I find +Dmg to be closer to concept than -Res. (And less stealing from Sonic's concept)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Imagine a team that can complete missions without suffering deaths on Invincible. I see them from level 22 onwards, so it shouldn't be too hard to conceptualize. Now present an argument for why that team should consider a FF defender equal in worth to ANY OTHER HERO THAT CAN BE BUILT.
[/ QUOTE ]
Poor argument. If they can already complete missions on Invincible without suffering any defeats, it doesn't matter WHAT they add; they will still do just fine.
Don't read into this that I think FF is fine as is; just that particular line of reasoning always bugs me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. That team, if they're fine, could pick up the FF defender, then trade scrappers and tanks for blasters, who can then speed up the damage dealt.
Although we'll never see what's really best while there's an arbitrary difficulty cap. When we can spawn 8-man maps of +5s when solo, we'll really know what the best teams of any size are. 
[ QUOTE ]
And Force Bubbble, in practice, already does -Speed. It also does -Damage and -Recharge. It does these things through changes in the AI the baddies use while fighting the Repel of the bubble.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually Repel and -Speed are not the exactly the same thing. -Speed keeps the foe from getting into melee with you, while maintaining his distance from you. Repel (or knockback) also keeps the foe out of melee, but it also forces the foe further away from you, thus possibly putting him out of your range.
Good points Jade. I should have said that I'd scrap the repel effect of Force Bubble and swap it with a slow effect. The only problem with +dam is that at some point, a cap is reached; -res isn't as likely to reach the resistance debuff cap.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
+acc powers can shred defence
[/ QUOTE ]
Wrong. +Tohit shreds defense, +Acc does very little to defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whoops, my bad, you're right. I mixed them up.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually Repel and -Speed are not the exactly the same thing. -Speed keeps the foe from getting into melee with you, while maintaining his distance from you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or keeps him in melee with you.
If you want -Speed, there are already many options available to Defenders. There are no other options for a Repel like Force Bubble. And that Repel, used with geometry and a smiggin of Control, shuts down baddies argueably as well as any other power in the game. -Speed doesn't.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
Good points Jade. I should have said that I'd scrap the repel effect of Force Bubble and swap it with a slow effect. The only problem with +dam is that at some point, a cap is reached; -res isn't as likely to reach the resistance debuff cap.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I don't want to scrap the Repel entirely, I feel it is very possible to decrease the diameter of the Repel, and thus make it much more useful, but stacking it with a Slow.
In the other hand, the Repel could be in another power from the Slow. We could divide the effect between Force Bubble and Repulsion Field, for instance. Or, Force Bubble could have both effects if you want to leave Repulsion Field as is. The truth is, if the Slow is effective enough, it would be possible to eliminate the bubble entirely, and just run into melee range with Repulsion Field to "repel" your foes out of the circle YOU define.
Of course, Repulsion Field is Knockback, not Repel, but Hurricane combines Repel and Knockback, so that's not out of the question. (Waits for magicj's inevitable "Why don't you just play Storm?" response)
[ QUOTE ]
I'm on the fence over this type of change. I like what it would mean for the FF Defender character's survivability, but I'm concerned about what it would mean for team members. This is especially true in PvP where it is very difficult to keep players within the radius of Dispersion Bubble.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know anything about PvP. Perhaps you could help me with that part of it.
My reasoning is that players are going to be bringing their own defenses to the group, and the addition of even the small bubbles with Dispersion value to their personal defenses is still going to have significant value. After all, Dispersion's 10% is similar in percentage to Heightened Senses, and that's been judged to be a effective addition to the Willpower Scrappers/Tankers defenses.
Blasters on the team would be the most affected by this of course, but the potential for the same defense would still be there, it would just require actually paying attention and/or establishing with the FF defender how the two were going to try and stick together. In a team with only Blasters and FF the FF would simply work to keep the Blasters under Dispersion, whereas in a larger group with more AT's in it, the FF could simply small bubble the blaster and then be much more active in the battle because there would be less risk for the blaster (due to the other teammates and their powers). If the Blaster does get aggro, he simply targets the FF and hits /follow, and gets pulled into Dispersion.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't have a hard time rationalizing it; as enemies are fighting their way through the Force Bubble their ability to defend and fend off attacks is reduced. Your attacks now do more damage to enemies affected by the Force Bubble.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, rationale is easy. We should always be able to rationalize something, especially if it's a good idea.
Rather than a +DMG I've always thought a ToHit buff or -DEF debuff might be more easily placed in an FF power. Depending on the magnitude of the ToHit buff or -DEF debuff the resulting lower miss chance would effectively be a damage buff, if indirect. Either one could also be an excellent contribution in PvP and AV fights.
I haven't done any Arcanavillian numbers on it or anything, but I've always thought that might be a way to get an indirect damage buff to the FF defender and her/his team.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
-ACC, ToHitDebuff, -Spd, etc. all work for the power.
[/ QUOTE ]
And Force Bubbble, in practice, already does -Speed. It also does -Damage and -Recharge. It does these things through changes in the AI the baddies use while fighting the Repel of the bubble.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree with saying Repel equates to -Spd. In both PvE and PvP things that are not affected by Repel are still affected by -Spd. If the power had both elements in it the power would still affect the Repel resistant ones by slowing them down.
Crey Threat Assessment: Bayne
Virtueverse: Bayne
The Defenders of Paragon
I would support some minor changes to the Knockback and Repel powers to make them function better in a team setting.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.