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Well, I don't want to scrap the Repel entirely, I feel it is very possible to decrease the diameter of the Repel, and thus make it much more useful, but stacking it with a Slow.
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This would hurt it's ability to be used with geometry for protection. It'd also hurt your ability to spread out the baddies, allowing the team to focus on one sub-group at a time.
In return, we'd get a -Speed which, in practice, Force Bubble already has.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
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I have 3 suggestions:
(1) Chance the duration on dispersion bubble to 10-15s (leave activate period the same). Consider a bit of KB protection.
(2) Replace repulsion field or repulsion bomb with a this power: You target an enemy and a large force field appears around him and contracts, dragging all enemies in the AoE TOWARD your target. In other words, it squeezes your enemies together, like an anti-knockback. Not sure if it's possible with the powers system. Both knockback or repel would be fine here. A nice alternate power would be a wall of force. You target a location, it appears there, say 40ft wide, perpendicular to the line between you and your target.
(3) Change the activate on repulsion bomb (if it is kept) to 1s or so, give it a better animation, and a more consistent stun. (I'm thinking 100% mag 2 + 50% mag 1 at a minimum). (As a side note, after 3 years of play, I only got to see Repulsion Bomb because I took it; I'd never, EVER seen anyone use it. After 3 years. That's pretty indicative of something.)
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+damage could work thematically, one of the buffs adds force/energy/ooomph to the allies attacks.
[/ QUOTE ]
You'll get no complaints from me for adding damage to FF, so long as the rest of its abilities remain in place. In addition to being useful, it just makes sense that when you're throwing things through the air they're going to take damage.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually Repel and -Speed are not the exactly the same thing. -Speed keeps the foe from getting into melee with you, while maintaining his distance from you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or keeps him in melee with you.
[/ QUOTE ]
For some people, that is a positive.
[ QUOTE ]
If you want -Speed, there are already many options available to Defenders. There are no other options for a Repel like Force Bubble. And that Repel, used with geometry and a smiggin of Control, shuts down baddies argueably as well as any other power in the game. -Speed doesn't.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, if you want -Speed, there is an option for almost EVERY Defender.
Dark - Tar Patch
Kinetics - Siphon Speed
Radiation - Lingering Radiation
Storm - Freezing Rain
Trick Arrow - Glue Arrow
We can throw in some Corruptor and Mastermind Buff/Debuff sets while we're at it:
Cold - Snow Storm
Traps - Caltrops
Poison - Neurotoxic Breath
You might also consider those powers that add Speed to allies, or protect them from Slow. (Or even Immobilize) But clearly Slow is not something that is limited to only a few options. It is fairly universal, and in fact it is one of the few control powers that is common to Defender, and equal in strength to a Controller. Perhaps because it can be through of as a debuff. (To speed of movement and attack)
Let's consider this, "Why don't you play an X" argument for a moment. Would you like for all duplicate powers or effects to be removed from all Buff/Debuff sets? Remember, this is our issue; that Force Field has too FEW effects, compared to other Primaries. Shall we remove all other Defense from all other sets so it can be unique to Force Field? Shall we remove all the knockback from Kin and Storm? How about removing all heals from anything but Empathy? All Resistance from all sets but Sonic? All -To Hit from anything but Dark, and all -Def from anything from Radiation? Is that what you want?
[ QUOTE ]
This would hurt it's ability to be used with geometry for protection. It'd also hurt your ability to spread out the baddies, allowing the team to focus on one sub-group at a time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really, you'd just have to be closer to the geometry. This would actually be an advantage, the power would be MORE useful, not less. (As you could use it in less confined spaces where there is no corner to force the foes to remain close to you)
To divide up foes, you would merely need to separate yourself slightly from the rest of the team to "cut off" adds from the rear. You could still remain close enough to keep Dispersion Bubble on everyone, but you would essentially be a "wall" that the foes couldn't come around. You could do the same thing on the other side by standing between the meleers on one side and squishies on the other, protecting them all with your Dispersion Bubble while the Force Bubble shoves your foes BACK INTO the meleers, instead of AWAY from them.
[ QUOTE ]
In return, we'd get a -Speed which, in practice, Force Bubble already has.
[/ QUOTE ]
By this definition, Mass Domination is a -Speed.
[ QUOTE ]
Remember, this is our issue; that Force Field has too FEW effects, compared to other Primaries.
[/ QUOTE ]
Force Fields has few _direct_ effects compared to other primaries.
But it has many indirect effects, the kind that aren't listed in the power description. Basically duplicating -Speed, -Recharge, -Damage are only some. Repulsion Field in essence duplicates the benefits of Immobilize. Force Bubble with a little bit of creative movement and a small amount of control duplicates a Hold. And these are _toggle_ powers.
Personal Force Field lets you mimic a Tank, especially if you take Provoke, Aid Self, and any sort of halfway decent AoE control, including Repulsion Bomb. Force Bubble lets you herd every bit as well as a Tanker.
Repulsion Bomb, Force Bolt, and Repulsion Field allow you to perform chaos control that can only be rivaled by a Storm build. With the added benefit that you can turtle up in PFF and heal when needed.
I suggest the idea that the reason so many types of debuffs aren't in Force Fields is because they're already in Force Fields.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
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[ QUOTE ]
Our knockback is useless in AV or GM fights; +acc powers can shred defence....
[/ QUOTE ]
Only tohit buffs, not heightened accuracy, can really do that. That's an important PvP issue, but a much more situational PvE issue.
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Remember, this is our issue; that Force Field has too FEW effects, compared to other Primaries.
[/ QUOTE ]
Force Fields has few _direct_ effects compared to other primaries.
But it has many indirect effects, the kind that aren't listed in the power description. Basically duplicating -Speed, -Recharge, -Damage are only some. Repulsion Field in essence duplicates the benefits of Immobilize. Force Bubble with a little bit of creative movement and a small amount of control duplicates a Hold. And these are _toggle_ powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
As I said, if you use this argument, any Immobilize could be a -Speed. Any Fear is a -Recharge. Any Hold or Stun is a -Damage. Again, GIVE ME ANY EXAMPLE ANYONE ELSE IN THE GAME CAN'T DO. Every Archetype has indirect effects from his powers, this isn't something exclusive to Force Fields that magically makes them able to do anything with just Def and Knockback.
And you're really only talking about Force Bubble, and only if you exploit it to force a foe into a wall. I can't believe that is the way the devs intended for it to be used. Again and again the devs have nerfed powers which could be used to repeatedly knockback foes and keep them off their feet permanently, and the only reason FF hasn't gotten this treatment is that it would break Force Bubble's ONLY effect.
[ QUOTE ]
Personal Force Field lets you mimic a Tank, especially if you take Provoke, Aid Self, and any sort of halfway decent AoE control, including Repulsion Bomb.
[/ QUOTE ]
You cannot hold aggro with Personal Force Field up. You may be able to act like a tank in an emergency, but you will never be able to tank for the team as long as you have the lowest Defense on that team.
Unless, of course, you're a Mastermind. Which I'm sure is the experience you are coming from with this statement. Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions, but I'd say it's a good 90% chance of it.
[ QUOTE ]
Repulsion Bomb, Force Bolt, and Repulsion Field allow you to perform chaos control that can only be rivaled by a Storm build.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's very true, and one of PhiloticKnight's best arguments. The big question is, can Force Field's damage output match Storm's or Kinetics, the other two sets that are capable of major knockback effects? (And, I will add, are both capable of healing...)
[ QUOTE ]
I suggest the idea that the reason so many types of debuffs aren't in Force Fields is because they're already in Force Fields.
[/ QUOTE ]
If Force Bubble was actually able to push foes far enough away that you could keep from taking ranged damage from them, I might buy this. But there's nothing FF gives you in this area that other Defenders can't do as well. You want to juggle a foe in the corner? Use Hurricane. Want to take a foe out of the fight? Use Black Hole. Want to keep a foe from firing at you, hit him with Parylizing Gaze or EMP Pulse. Want to immobilize him, use Choking Cloud or, I dunno, maybe an immobilize.
[ QUOTE ]
Poor argument. If they can already complete missions on Invincible without suffering any defeats, it doesn't matter WHAT they add; they will still do just fine.
Don't read into this that I think FF is fine as is; just that particular line of reasoning always bugs me.
[/ QUOTE ]
I respectfully disagree with the idea that percieved value is unimportant in set balance. I've been playing a FF/Psy recently, and this isn't a phenomenon I'm imagining. I'm not talking about how valuable I feel; I'm talking about how I get treated as a FF/ by people who're recruiting teams.
This is the old scrapper problem from the early issues. Sure, they soloed well, and sure, they did good damage. But nobody wanted them on a team because the blaster did it better.
Opportunity cost from the team's perspective.
~Gabriel
[ QUOTE ]
There's two complicating factors involved with this:
1) The FF Defender cannot bubble himself with two of the "Big Three". So in your example above, the SR scrapper would get a 10% melee/ranged/AoE power, and then another 20% Defense power he could only put on someone else. So essentially he's got 7 "crap powers", not 6... to him, anyway.
2) Scrappers also don't have a penalty to their damage due to the majority of them having an offense boost in their Secondary. So for instance if a Scrapper only had 80% damage, (30% less than 112.5) but all Scrappers but Super Reflexes got a 30% damage boost, then that SR Scrapper would have 80% damage and 10% Defense... not quite enough to solo, I don't think.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I don't really consider those two issues complicating factors to my point, because they are largely orthogonal to my points. In the first case, my point is that having most of your utility concentrated into fewer powers rather than dispersed is actually a performance advantage, even if its a design oddity. That's true regardless of what those powers actually do, and comparisons to the soloing performance of SR scrappers is not relevant here.
In the second case, you're saying that a complicating factor in my suggesting that the set design might allow for more offense than generally credited is that FF has an offensive penalty. That's assuming the exact opposite of the point I was trying to make, and suggesting that I didn't acknowledge it.
I'm obviously not going to acknowledge it, if my whole point is specifically that I think it might not be entirely accurate. I think its partially accurate, but I don't think the entire picture is being given full credit, for reasons I specifically outlined. In effect, one design error (strength concentration) is partially offsetting another (lack of offensive options) by creating options relatively unique to the set (seeking offensive options outside the primary without serious loss in effectiveness).
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<QR>
Wowzas, look at what happens when I go to work for a few hours. 
I read through every post, but these are the only things that perked my attention at the moment -
BurningChick:
[ QUOTE ]
But that's not really the point. The /real/ point of this thread is that precious few people see much value in FF past The Big Three and, depending on taste and awareness of the set, one or two other powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here is the essence and the source of this entire conversation. We are trying to make the set more "active" AND more attractive to the "average" player. I would have to say magicj (if you don't have me on ignore by now) that you and I are NOT the "average" player. We agree that with the simple effects that these powers provide it creates alot of "extra" effects in the meta-game. But most people don't, won't, or can't see that. What we need is more REAL effects so that the "average" player will see themselves making more of an obvious difference to their team's success. That is what will make the PRIMARY more flashy and attractive to more players. Right now all the other primaries are more flashy and are arguably more useful against AVs/GMs. We need to fix that somehow.
Mack008:
[ QUOTE ]
The rest of us are discussing the Defender Primary of Force Fields. If you don't think it needs to be changed, then simply say so and move on.
[/ QUOTE ]
PLEASE, pretty please, with sugar on top. This discussion is about the primary and primary alone. If you're not going to be constructive and add any suggestions on how we may change the primary to make it more attractive, please move on, we ALL know where you stand now.
CDN_Guardian:
[ QUOTE ]
I don't have a hard time rationalizing it; as enemies are fighting their way through the Force Bubble their ability to defend and fend off attacks is reduced.
[/ QUOTE ]
CDN, the only problem with that is that's a DEFENSE debuff. You see whenever you don't get hit by an attack and it says "dodged" or "deflected"? That's Defense. Damage Resistance (-RES) is how TOUGH someone is, or how they stand up to the hit when they GET hit. Your justification here is flawed. I'm open to adding -RES to a power somewhere, but this is not a valid justification for it. The game itself says that Defense is "whether you get hit or not" and Damage Resistance is "how hard it hits you". You have to find a new justification.
That's all I've got so far, I'll have to spend some time looking over all these posts some more. Right now I need to get some DINNER! 
[ QUOTE ]
By this definition, Mass Domination is a -Speed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Total Domination _is_ 100% -Speed. It's not at all uncommon on the Controller board to hear something like "Glue Arrow is really nice, but you don't need it when things are locked down".
But what seperates Force Bubble from powers like Total Domination is the effects aren't hard coded into the power. You're free to discover creative uses for that power. Herding is an example of something Total Dom can't be used for, at least not as well as Force Bubble is. Finding the last baddie hiding in some corner in a "kill all" mish can't be done with Total Dom. Nor can you use it to position baddies. And so on.
Edit:
The debuffs folks are suggesting are already available in other powersets. They're also already in FF, but not in obvious forms. But the effects Force Fields offers are not widely available. Replacing those effects with A) effects it basically already has, and B) removing effects not available elsewhere isn't making the set better, IMHO.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
Well, I don't really consider those two issues complicating factors to my point, because they are largely orthogonal to my points. In the first case, my point is that having most of your utility concentrated into fewer powers rather than dispersed is actually a performance advantage, even if its a design oddity. That's true regardless of what those powers actually do, and comparisons to the soloing performance of SR scrappers is not relevant here.
[/ QUOTE ]
But that assumes that the performance is itself balanced against other examples of power sets within the same archetype. That is, you assume that SR would have three "good" powers in which the majority of its capability is concentrated, and then "crap" powers that can be ignored. If you were to take these three powers as an SR Scrapper under these conditions, then you would be the equal of an SR Scrapper in the game right now. (Without Elude running, I'm guessing)
On the other hand, if PhiloticKnight is right, then the other six powers are NOT "crap". They are, in fact, extremely powerful abilities when used in the correct way. In order for this to be balanced it is reasonable to assume that the Big Three powers are in fact somewhat weaker than the whole set of nine powers from some other Primary. If they weren't, then if you were to use the "crap" powers as PhiloticKnight suggests, then you would be massively overpowered.
We can conclude from this that either the Big Three are no more powerful than any other three powers from a Defender Primary, or, circumstancial restrictions keeps PhiloticKnight's strategies from being used most of the time. The truth, of course, is in between these two extremes, the Big Three may indeed be powerful enough that they allow an FF to compete, even if he takes no other powers, which still leaving room for PhiloticKnight's strategies to improve on the base performance. It can also be argued that any power you take in place of a power other than the Big Three will add to your overall capability, and thus to an extent balance the fact that you aren't capable of the knockback strategies.
In many ways SR is similar to Force Field in that both are primarily Defense-oriented sets with very few secondary effects. This has been resolved somewhat for SR by the addition of the scaling Resistance, which added another damage mitigation component on top of the Defense, and the addition of Defense Debuff Resistance. However, I don't believe the knockback powers of FF are "crap" any more than Quickness and the passives are. It's just that unlike SR, the Big Three are more obvious as advantages, and the knockback powers take more effort to use.
[ QUOTE ]
In the second case, you're saying that a complicating factor in my suggesting that the set design might allow for more offense than generally credited is that FF has an offensive penalty. That's assuming the exact opposite of the point I was trying to make, and suggesting that I didn't acknowledge it.
I'm obviously not going to acknowledge it, if my whole point is specifically that I think it might not be entirely accurate. I think its partially accurate, but I don't think the entire picture is being given full credit, for reasons I specifically outlined. In effect, one design error (strength concentration) is partially offsetting another (lack of offensive options) by creating options relatively unique to the set (seeking offensive options outside the primary without serious loss in effectiveness).
[/ QUOTE ]
In a way, this is like the "you can herd, thus you can do more damage" argument. Or even the "you have more time to blast, thus you can do more damage" argument. Again, that's valid, IF you assume that the Big Three provide as much protection overall than all nine powers of some other Primary.
I suspect that it doesn't. It may come close, but most other Primaries are combining Defense (or -ToHit), Resistance (or -Dmg) and Healing for their damage mitigation. You yourself have posted comparisons between the various Primaries, and while Force Field certainly proves itself remarkably strong, it does so under conditions that are very specific, and falls apart very quickly other other specific conditions. You've said as much yourself.
In addition, there is the fact that, while solo, the FF Defender draws upon considerably less damage mitigation than a debuff Defender like Dark or Rad. While you've done analyses of Defenders' benefit to a team, I don't think you've ever a solo analysis. Just a simple estimate based on the numbers I have seen would suggest to me that the FF Defender's survivability would be very low, except in cases where he can bring PFF to bear. (Which would itself limit the FF's damage output)
In other words, the solo condition is important, and in a factor in the decision of FF Defender to continue to play their character. While it may not effect the overall performance of the FF Defender, it has enough of an effect that it should be considered.
[ QUOTE ]
In addition, there is the fact that, while solo, the FF Defender draws upon considerably less damage mitigation than a debuff Defender like Dark or Rad.
[/ QUOTE ]
I really don't think this is true. With Knockback, things aren't attacking until they're back up again, at which point you just knock them down again. With caging they're not attacking at all. With PFF it really doesn't matter if they're attacking.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't have a hard time rationalizing it; as enemies are fighting their way through the Force Bubble their ability to defend and fend off attacks is reduced.
[/ QUOTE ]
CDN, the only problem with that is that's a DEFENSE debuff. You see whenever you don't get hit by an attack and it says "dodged" or "deflected"? That's Defense. Damage Resistance (-RES) is how TOUGH someone is, or how they stand up to the hit when they GET hit. Your justification here is flawed. I'm open to adding -RES to a power somewhere, but this is not a valid justification for it. The game itself says that Defense is "whether you get hit or not" and Damage Resistance is "how hard it hits you". You have to find a new justification.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except that that's exactly the rationalization for Tar Patch to have -Res. "It is sticky and pulls at you like Tar, and so your ability to move is reduced. So you lose Resistance to damage."
Now, you could say that because the Tar Patch draws power from negative energy, it drains your strength, and thus your skin softens and you become less resistance to damage. But that does not match the Slow effect of Tar Patch, neither does it match the effect of any other Dark power, and the help text doesn't even bother to give a reasoning at all.
I'm like you about the -Defense effect being more in concept (although most powers that reduce Def either "shoot holes" in your armor, or cause it to decay) but for gameplay reasons I am convinced that it is either damage or resistance reduction that is needed. Accuracy doesn't trade one for one for damage, which is why players don't three slot for Accuracy like they do for Damage.
It's a metagame mechanic more than anything else, and it's very hard to rationalize metagaming.
[ QUOTE ]
I really don't think this is true. With Knockback, things aren't attacking until they're back up again, at which point you just knock them down again. With caging they're not attacking at all. With PFF it really doesn't matter if they're attacking.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dark has Fearsome Stare and Parylizing Gaze, which will stop foes from firing just as surely as Force Bolt and Repulsion Bomb/Field will, and with PFF up you cannot attack, which pretty much makes the discussion of damage output irrelevant.
I'm a strong supporter of Detention Field, and quite frankly I think it is the ONLY thing that makes FF (or Sonic, for that matter) soloable. You have less damage mitigation, but you also have only 2/3 of the foes to deal with. Considering that Dark can heal itself, however, plus it DOES have a damage boost, I've found it to be much easier and more consistent to solo.
If anything, with Dark I feel TOO safe. With Force Field there is always that fear that a lucky shot will cut through my Defense. That can be exciting, yes, but it can also be frustrating. And we're talking about balance, as well.
[ QUOTE ]
We agree that with the simple effects that these powers provide it creates alot of "extra" effects in the meta-game. But most people don't, won't, or can't see that. What we need is more REAL effects so that the "average" player will see themselves making more of an obvious difference to their team's success. That is what will make the PRIMARY more flashy and attractive to more players. Right now all the other primaries are more flashy and are arguably more useful against AVs/GMs. We need to fix that somehow.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't have you on ignore PK, and probably never wlll. I enjoy reading what you have to say (most of the time ).
Anyway, if the Devs can come up with ways that help the "average player" with FF but don't take away from the "better player", fine. But I'm going to speak out on thing s that I think would hurt the set.
[ QUOTE ]
PLEASE, pretty please, with sugar on top. This discussion is about the primary and primary alone.
[/ QUOTE ]
The primary can't be disentangled from the secondary. There are certain aspects about Defenders' secondaries that make playing an FF Defender less appealing than playing FF in some other AT. Doing something like adding -Res to Force Bubble isn't going to change that. You could add -Res -Speed -Damage and +Pie to Force Bubble and I would still skip over a FF Defender in favor for FF in any other AT.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
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[ QUOTE ]
But that assumes that the performance is itself balanced against other examples of power sets within the same archetype.
[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't say anything about the set's performance. I didn't even say whether I thought it needed fixes or not. What I said is that given a set of abilities, from a performance perspective it is always better to get them in three powers rather than six. That's true if that set of abilities is great, or they suck. Three is still better than six. Three is always better than six.
[ QUOTE ]
Again, that's valid, IF you assume that the Big Three provide as much protection overall than all nine powers of some other Primary.
[/ QUOTE ]
As I said: I don't have to assume that at all. In fact, I'll state it again for precision: I am not, and am not required to assume, any performance level of FF in order to assert that having its strength concentrated into three powers is better than having that same strength dispersed into more than three powers. That is logically unassailable.
As a separate issue of whether in fact FF's big three bubbles are the equal of other sets, thats a very tough debate. Radiation infection is theoretically stronger than all three powers combined - but its much more situational in its coverage, and affected by the purple patch since it is a debuff. Once you get to about +2, the FF bubbles start to become very strong compared to the debuffs that are out there, and its a lot easier for FF buffs to affect all attackers, relative to defensive powers that act as foe debuffs.
Once you stack maneuvers onto the three powers, though, I think the discussion is much less viable. Few things can deliver unambiguous 90% damage mitigation, plus mez protection, consistently against the vast majority of (PvE) attackers. The only thing that I think is competitive, and only situationally, is dark. Dark is looked upon as stronger than FF in this regard only because its protections all benefit self equally as the entire team. FF is skewed strongly towards the team relative to the defender. But that protection is stronger for the team in a lot of situations where Dark breaks down in being able to protect an entire team (I say "breaks down" in the relative sense of no longer consistently providing Elude-class protection for the entire team, not necessarily as dark completely breaking down in the sense of being unable to provide protection for the team).
That doesn't mean I don't think there's room for improvement in the set. But I do think its defensive strength is often highly underestimated.
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I have a few forcefield suggestions...
The two attack powers for example i think need the tweeking...
The force bolt....with its minor damage and knockback.....thats really neat....unfortuantely as anyone levels.....the power begins to not knock things back as much as it did....in fact some things attack still during the animation of knockback no matter how far away you send them.(thats with all knock back enhancements slotted too)
In addition some foes...seam to be just immune(aggain 6 knockback enehancements i find i cant knock some things at all....of cousre players and villains and heroes are virtually immune anywise)...and the nifty 2 damage you cause even though its shown as you doing 2 damage is smash damage....and is normally ignored.....an easy demonstration is using this power on trolls...notice how not only you can't knock them down or back most of the time...but also the nifty 2 damage the game reports seams to be actually zero damage as you can leave your cursor over the health guage of the enemy and see that they infact took no damage...alot of things seam to do this....my hero stats program for example reports i have done alot of damage with it....yet from actual effect either the enemy has magically gained health from the hit(i.e they have more then 320 health) or they are resistaing the damage.
The Force bomb power is another one...hmm minor damage....
Basically i think that the power should maybe do a diorient or stun...might as well drop the damage since it doesnt do much anywise...that or increase the damage...being these are the only attack powers from the set.
Controller wise...the damage from those powers is too small(thats based on a comparison of secondary powers with damage)....defender wise...the damage from those powers is easily off set with blasts.....master mind wise.....they have pets ergo...no need for damage....but again the low damage amount makes the actual damage powers have no real value...oh you can knock something back....sometimes....gee like it cant shoot back or come get you anywise...in fact aside from swarms is there anything that cant shoot in this game?....also is there anything that cant shoot at sniper ranges in this game?....
Also the personal forcefield....should maybe work like superior invisibility...in that it stays on but you can also attack through it.....but like superior invisibility the effect should supress....so that some benefit could be gained from it...but not all of it.
I realize that there was some need to keep it from being on...but lets see...the maxmum defense you can get is 90% ever...that 9 out of ten attacks fail to hit...just how many attacks do people get hit by....my hero stats reports that in a second i normaly get attacked in a normal combat about 5 times per second.....which means the defense is not as great as one would think.
By the way...a big irritation is the no sleep defense....also i noticed some stun attacks seam to cause a sleep effect as do some enemy disorient effects....malta, crey, and freakshow, and clockwork, cause these effects the most often...noticable enough to see the dispersion bubble i had set up go down...while i am stuck in some helpless animation.
I realize it might be a bit of problem to prevent the forcefield toggles from turning off after being stunned....but that would be the best tweak to give force fields.....i mean i could care less if i where stunned for an hour and stuck wandering drunk if i had at least the forcefield toggles still going giving me some defense against attacks.....
the imprisoning bubble....i was thinking perhaps you should let it cause damage if it doesnt work on a target...becasue it seams to not work on alot of things...and when it does work...perhaps it should be changed to allow players to effect the target in a different way then normal...perhaps like if they attack the imrisoned target they could knock it away or move it...like a beach ball or ping pong ball....if nothing else doing that would add some interesting tactics if not some more fun to the usage of the power.
oh well...those are my suggestions....only testing would determine what would work or not...i for one base my thoughts on using the powers in table top gaming and other computer games and this one...so go figure...i have a lot of comparision to see things that work and dont work.
[ QUOTE ]
.like a beach ball or ping pong ball....if nothing else doing that would add some interesting tactics if not some more fun to the usage of the power.
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I LOVE this idea.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
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The primary can't be disentangled from the secondary. There are certain aspects about Defenders' secondaries that make playing an FF Defender less appealing than playing FF in some other AT. Doing something like adding -Res to Force Bubble isn't going to change that. You could add -Res -Speed -Damage and +Pie to Force Bubble and I would still skip over a FF Defender in favor for FF in any other AT.
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I disagree. And while I certainly can't speak for you, I think if you were to actually test Force Field with a damage boost you might find it more to your liking. You've already expressed your concern that with Force Field you cannot "open fire" on a large group of foes like you can with your Controller or Mastermind. You are concerned that your nuke won't do enough damage to finish off the foe, or that if you draw too much damage with herding, that you will be killed before you can finish them off.
Well, first of all let's take a step away from the herding. Controllers and Masterminds will always have better damage mitigation than Defenders. Controllers can hold and otherwise control foes in order to reduce incoming fire, while Masterminds have Bodyguard. Defenders, like Corruptors, are a defense/ranged attack hybrid, and thus they don't have either Controllers' controls or Masterminds' pets to boost their defense. They have ranged attacks.
With a -Res debuff, you are doing more damage. Let's assume this is applied to Force Bubble, so you can have it up all of the time. This means that pretty much every foe in the radius of your effect is debuffed. If we give the Force Bubble a radius inside its current one, then the foes are held at the edge of the bubble with their Resistance debuffed.
You can use any of your ranged powers, including Targetted AoEs, to hit your foes. Depending on the size of the Force Bubble, you may be able to use AoE Cones. The same holds true for your nuke, chances are even with a fairly large bubble, the nuke will still hit your foes. (who are clustered at the edge of the bubble trying to get to you)
So, you've got plenty of attacks to use, and more importantly, you've got enough damage boost to do some damage. When you set off your nuke, maybe you can depend on nothing surviving. You don't HAVE to herd, since you can actually take on five or a half dozen foes and count on them falling before you can get into trouble. Just like a Rad or Kin can. And of course you've still got your knockback powers, and your Detention Shield, and can still use them.
Now, it's possible that a constant -Res is too powerful. Dark's is only up when Tar Patch is up, and also only effects foes in the Tar Patch. Force Bubble is HUGE, so any debuffs applied by it would certainly effect a large number of foes, making it very powerful. There's another issue, of course, which is that waiting until 32 to get a damage boost is going to be pretty hard for many players. It many not really be any better than not getting a damage boost at all, from the standpoint of a new player. But it's a direction for the discussion.
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Again, that's valid, IF you assume that the Big Three provide as much protection overall than all nine powers of some other Primary.
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As I said: I don't have to assume that at all. In fact, I'll state it again for precision: I am not, and am not required to assume, any performance level of FF in order to assert that having its strength concentrated into three powers is better than having that same strength dispersed into more than three powers. That is logically unassailable.
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All right... That's valid IF you assume that the Big Three provide the concentration of all of the strength of FF into three powers.
This would be at odds with PhiloticKnight's argument that the Big Three are NOT the concentration of all of the strength of FF. In fact, the other powers are not only useful, they are just as useful for damage mitigation and crowd control as the Big Three.
I don't know if I'd necessarily say it's equal, but it's probably closer to the truth than the popular concensus that the Big Three are the only powers that are useful and the other powers should not be taken at all.
Your argument at best can be "By giving up the knockback powers and going to the Pool you can give yourself the variety and diversity that the knockback powers lack." But this is a far cry from saying you have an advantage with this choice. (Outside of the obvious advantage of just having diversity, and possibly, powers that are easier for the casual player to use skillfully)
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Radiation infection is theoretically stronger than all three powers combined - but its much more situational in its coverage, and affected by the purple patch since it is a debuff. Once you get to about +2, the FF bubbles start to become very strong compared to the debuffs that are out there, and its a lot easier for FF buffs to affect all attackers, relative to defensive powers that act as foe debuffs.
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This is exactly what I meant when I said, "FF is better under specific circumstances, and falls apart under other circumstances". As I said previously, I don't want FF to be the "this is the set we need when fighting red cons" set, any more than I want it to be the "this is the set we need because we're herding" or "this is the set we need because we're on an indoor map with lots of corners".
When you get right down to it, though, we're talking about a fairly equal balance between the three. Rad has strong defenses, but really doesn't measure up quite to the other two. Dark is strong defensively, but in ways that FF isn't, and FF is strong in ways Dark isn't. The bigger question is, if FF is NOT significantly more powerful defensively, should it not also have comparable power offensively, at least compared to Dark?
I don't really have any problem with Dark being comparable to Force Field. I just want to see the two either be more comparable, or Force Field have the obvious advantage in defense.
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3. DETENTION FIELD: I think the simplest fix frankly is to change the graphic to where its super super obvious that thing has been detained. Stick the mob in side a glowing Iron Maiden or something . . . or something thats not as dorky as that but you get the idea.
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I don't think it is broken but I agree making the graphic more noticible would be nice. The Detention Field bubble on the villian side I've noticed is has a very distinctive graphic, looks like a fabrise egg, lol.
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6. FORCE BUBBLE: Make it the same radius as Dispersion as its frankly too big as it is. This change alone would make it much easier to use. Adding some defense to the defender would be nice too since otherwise you pretty much have to pair it with a purple if you are trying to save the team from anything thats actually threatening. But I honestly could live with just making it smaller as this would make it a more precise tool, less likely to cause unwanted aggro, and less likely to knock things out of attack range if you do not have a corner handy.
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Force Bubble history if you are interested.
Many Issues back FB had a massive endurance cost which made it practically unusable. (watch your blue bar sink fast) They dramatically lowered the endurance cost on it to .68/s which is a little more than DB at .52/s. Not sure but I also seem to recall they shuffled it up to tier 32 where it is now, but don't hold me to that. Also in CoH beta FB had ToHit Debuff which apparently they decided made it overpowered and took it out of final. That might speak to the adding defense to it suggestion.
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Now, it's possible that a constant -Res is too powerful.
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Probably not. The only way -Res would get you around the problems with the nuke is if it did Blaster level damage, which is not something I think anyone is suggesting. Otherwise, you have to do what you do now: blast with your mismatched cones until you hope you've done enough damage that your nuke will kill everything. And if you guess wrong, you're probably going to die.
In other words, no reasonable amount of -Res solves the problem. I'd be much happier with a reduction of a Defender's Endurance drain for using nukes from 100% to 85%.
And _no_ buff or debuff is going to change certain key blasts from being made disfunctional by Repulsion Bomb and Repulsion Field. A problem I don't have on any FF build except a Defender FF build.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
I'd like to see some way for FF to increase offense of my team.
Either through +damage, -resist, or endurance assistance.
+damage could work thematically, one of the buffs adds force/energy/ooomph to the allies attacks.
-resistance works for sonic, I see no reason why it couldn't work for FF.
My personal preference would either be to add +recovery to Dispersion Bubble or Force Bubble (can one power affect both enemies and allies with different effects?) or add +endurance to Insulation Shield or add a Transference like effect to Repuslion Bomb. Force Fielders defend the green bar very well, but they help the blue bar very little except through use of their secondaries.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.