[ QUOTE ]
I think the problem with the set is more subtle than that, separate from the issues many (but not necessarily a majority) of players have with the way the set seems to play.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the MAJORITY of the playerbase that plays FF has a problem with how the "other six" powers play. I and a few others are the small minority that find consistent use for the powers. That's why I'm pushing to get these "tweaks" made so that the majority will have something to point to and say "Hey! I can find value in taking the REST of my primary powers too!"
That's what I'm hoping for at least. I did the best that I could explaining ALL the myriad ways you can use the tools that are already there in my guide, but if people don't read it and/or don't try to find the uses themselves, they will try out the powers for a few levels, say "this sucks!" and respec out of them.
I'm a VERY patient man. That's how I found all of the uses for the powers that I did. Not everyone, in fact MOST people, aren't that patient. They want instant results, and that's something that ForceFields' "other six" doesn't give you. Like Bleu Cheese dressing, it's an acquired taste that you appreciate the more you use it.
Well, I've made about 3 dozen stabs at recommending ways to change FF in the last 4+ years (beta time included) so let me try this again since I know a red-name is at least looking at this thread...
Repulsion Field- Garbage. Needs to be totally redesigned.
Possible solution: Repulsion Field instead of "Pulsing" should be more like a dispersion bubble forcefield (50% the size) thing that just constantly knocks back anything that touches it. Essentially what Kinetic's defenders have now but not just for the user...
Make it large enough that melee attackers can't hit the person. This actually makes more sense than Force Bubble, which has the uncanny ability of aggroing things in other parts of the map if it's big enough to go through the walls on the map...
Make this Repulsion field an actual field instead of the pulsing hoola-hoop that it currently is. Perhaps just big enough that if someone hugged the defender they'd be protected from melee attackers too.
Repulsion Bomb- Garbage. Total Redesign/replacement.
There's really no way to truly fix this power aside from making it a straight up targeted AoE. At one time it was bouncing them off a target ally, another time it was bouncing them off from around a targeted foe. It needs to just be the FF equivalent of Liquefy but with more knockback than debuffing.
Force Bubble/ Dispersion Bubble- Switch the size of these two bubbles. Yay, I can add to that scrappers Def...as long as he isn't trying to attack anything while I have FB up...since he can't get that buff and attack...oh and I aggroed the entire room with my massive FB...oh wait...they're minion level warwolves that are -2 to me...so they can still walk right up to me with FB on and hit me.
FB should cost almost as much as it used to, be smaller, and be the ultimate anti-melee damage shield.
PFF- Allow us to affect allies. That's all.
Force Bolt- It's a knockback attack. The entire purpose is to knockback an enemy. This should atleast be able to reliably knockdown foes if not knockback. If 3 FF defenders fired this power slotted out in Knockbacks at the same EB at the same time it should knock him on his butt, currently he just looks like he's playing guitar hero and head banging to the song when that happens.
Dispersion Bubble is fine except the size. The defender's job is to protect the team, the ENTIRE team. Not just melee OR ranged. I shouldn't have to stand within AoE range of my melee folks in order to give them my shield buff.
Detention Field- Scrap it. Replace it with something new or atleast re-name it. First of all, you lie. This is not a "field" this is a bubble. Not even an easy to see bubble. If on a team with an FFer and they have you in dispersion and buffed, with all the shieldy goodness you have a hard time seeing the detention egg on a bad guy.
How about making it a toggle or an actual "field" and instead of isolating them it immobilizes them and drastically reduces their ACC to the absolute bottom-most level but still hittable. That way we don't have to wait for it to wear off if we finish the mob sooner/easier than expected...
We've heard the propaganda about how Knockback is what makes FF so great. In fact its one of the if not THE number 1 reason people get annoyed with FF's. It's the least liked secondary affect of all the powers in the game. Melee's hate Energy blasters and FF defenders because of KB. Blasters hate FF defenders because of KB (an powers like Repulsion Bomb) "Oh, you wanted to use that AoE? My bad...lemme not use anything in my secondary except Dispersion Shield since everything else either knocks them out of AoE or isolates them from it's effects..."
The only people that think FFs are alright are the ones that never play them. All they see are "Do I have my two bubbles? Does he have his big one on so I can run in." After that we're pretty much useless, maybe if while Dispersion bubble was active we got a buff to damage we can do...Since aside from Deflection and Insulation bubbles the only one FF's reliably CHOOSE to take is Dispersion Bubble. And unless we wanna PO at least some portion of our team we can't typically use about 80% of our secondary powers that leaves us with blasting...
Don't even get me started on the "benefits" Vigilance has for Defenders who bubble...oh...extra Endurance when my teammates run low on health...wow...that means I can cast those low cost bubbles AGAIN! And without ANY added benefit! Then I can blast as fast as my powers will recharge...I might even do 5 or 6 damage if my Nova hits!
Philotic: While I appreciate that you seem to feel the "Sinister Six" have a use I can say that having played a bubbler for 4 years...they really don't have more than at best situational uses. And the occasional situation in which those powers come in handy don't justify the power slots and enhancements they eat up...
Currently:
Detention "field"- You're looking at at least 2 ACC not counting that you need a recharge to reliably get it back at just about the time it dies if you're trying to "control" anything. And since it's got that wonderful chance of missing and shorter affect time on tougher foes, that means when you need it it's likely to miss or not last nearly long enough.
Repulsion Field/Force Bubble- The things you, as a defender, really NEED to KB or at least hold back (the hard hitting melee-centric mobs) are the ones that totally ignore both of these powers as they currently are, even well slotted.
The only power in the Sinister Six aside from PFF and Force Bolt that actually has some non-special-situation usage is Force Bubble since, provided there aren't any open doors nearby and you aren't fighting Carnies or Council (or anything with melee-oriented mobs) you can pop things into corners. Unfortunately, as it currently is FB still does a horrible job of even this. I was in the "Save the World" mission and had my FB up, totally blocking the entire corridor in the rikti tunnel. There wasn't a single corner of that space above, below or next to me that wasn't totally covered by my FB, theoretically nothing that isn't melee-centric (warwolves, strongmen, etc) should have even been able to get by me. Yet there they were just stutter-sliding along the wall right through the FB. Not only did I get every ounce of aggro despite 2 tanks with Invincibility running right under me but it was a pointless waste of end when those stupid Nemesis balls O' death and the marching band geeks with guns were sliding right past me...
[ QUOTE ]
I'm a VERY patient man. That's how I found all of the uses for the powers that I did. Not everyone, in fact MOST people, aren't that patient. They want instant results, and that's something that ForceFields' "other six" doesn't give you. Like Bleu Cheese dressing, it's an acquired taste that you appreciate the more you use it.
[/ QUOTE ]
/signed
But I'm not sure that changing FF to just another set where you click buttons is the answer. FF and Storm are unique in that what the powers do depends as much on the player as the power. FF actually even more so than Storm.
I personally really enjoy that feature of FF and would hate to see it lost in favor of making it just another button mashing set. The game has _plenty_ of button mashing sets already.
Edit:
So the folks who want to just log on, play a set that's pretty straight forward, collect their badges and go prefer to play a set other than FF. As I see it, that's fine. It's not a problem that needs to be solved. Stalkers in PvE _is_ a problem that needs to be solved.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
We've heard the propaganda about how Knockback is what makes FF so great. In fact its one of the if not THE number 1 reason people get annoyed with FF's. It's the least liked secondary affect of all the powers in the game. Melee's hate Energy blasters and FF defenders because of KB. Blasters hate FF defenders because of KB (an powers like Repulsion Bomb) "Oh, you wanted to use that AoE? My bad...lemme not use anything in my secondary except Dispersion Shield since everything else either knocks them out of AoE or isolates them from it's effects..."
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, from BAD FFers that don't know how to use knockback in a way that's BENEFICIAL to the team. Tell me, are you one of those?
[ QUOTE ]
The only people that think FFs are alright are the ones that never play them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh really? I play almost nothing BUT ForceFields. Let me go through my credentials one more time. *looks up his previous post on the matter*
[ QUOTE ]
... my first hero was a Mind/FF Controller that lasted for about 14 levels, my second was a Gravity/FF Controller that lasted for about 14 levels too. My third, fourth, fifth, and SIXTH characters were all The Philotic Knight. PK was first a level 50 FF Defender on Justice. I deleted him. I then remade him on Freedom, got him to 50 and deleted him. I did it a third time. I didn't delete the third PK. Instead, I created a copy of him on EVERY server and have him at various levels on all of the other servers. All in all, I have over 200 levels of ForceField Defending experience over a three year period. I've also played almost exclusively in pick-up-groups. This means two things: that I've been on alot of bad AND good teams, and that I've had the freedom and opportunity to test ALL the powers in the set in almost EVERY given situation with almost EVERY team makeup imaginable. I probably have more experience and game time playing as a ForceField Defender than any other person in the game...
[/ QUOTE ]
Now if you can look at that, and look at all of the OTHER experienced FF players that also don't want to throw out the whole set and make a new one... if you can look at all of us and tell us we're all wrong and you're right.... well then, I hope you enjoy City of Powerhelm. Because that's all that it will be.
[ QUOTE ]
We've heard the propaganda about how Knockback is what makes FF so great.
[/ QUOTE ]
Knockback is certainly part of it. Particularly since it affects bosses. But the truth is, all of the powers in FF are pretty darn good.
[ QUOTE ]
The only people that think FFs are alright are the ones that never play them.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking no. I've got an FFer on every server in the game and if I can't match PKs 200 levels, I'm certainly close.
I can agree that it's not a set for everyone. And I don't think it should be made into a set for everyone. That was already tried with Sonic.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, the MAJORITY of the playerbase that plays FF has a problem with how the "other six" powers play.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would feel comfortable saying that its very likely a majority of FF players are not especially happy with the non-bubbles also. But that's not quite what I said: I said I'm not certain that a majority of players think that is actually a major problem. Many seem to like just taking the bubbles, and the occasional force bolt, and ignoring the rest, leaving room for lots of options outside the set.
Put it this way: suppose it was decided that FF was going to get a buff, and the buff was, say, an ally damage-boosting ability. Suppose the choice was between replacing repulsion bomb with a damage buff aura, or just adding it to dispersion bubble. I suspect that some players would be in favor of jettisoning RB and adding a utility power, but others would be in favor of adding it to dispersion, which they already have, and continuing to be free to forget about RB.
This is a trivial choice at the beginning of time. If this is still CoH beta, you ditch RB and add in the aura (if that is what you've decided to change). But this is 2008, and people have come to expect certain things from FF. One of them is, for at least some people, that its a "light" set. I don't think we should trivially toss that expectation aside.
Yes, it has some questionable powers. And yes, ideally they should be more universally respected. But should all players be forced to adjust to a set that is so designed, after a long time playing with one that wasn't? I don't find that to be a trivial question to answer.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Sorry Powerhelm, my anger after briefly scanning most of your post left me too blind to read it through in it's entirety. My original post still stands. Here are some additions:
[ QUOTE ]
Don't even get me started on the "benefits" Vigilance has for Defenders who bubble...oh...extra Endurance when my teammates run low on health...wow...that means I can cast those low cost bubbles AGAIN! And without ANY added benefit!
[/ QUOTE ]
Vigilance kicks in when your team NEEDS it most. It gives you an endurance discount on all of your powers. What does that mean it lets you do to save your team from certain doom? It lets you: Detain the boss or AV, use Repulsion Bomb on the biggest mass of enemies to get them OFF of their feet for a few precious seconds, turn on Force Bubble not ONLY to push all the enemies out of melee range of everyone, but ALSO to grab that aggro for yourself and save your teammates FROM the aggro, and finally you can Force Bolt anyone left standing. The vigilance allows you to keep this up long enough to get your team back to safety. That is the power of Vigilance on the "sinister six". Sure you've maybe played the set since Beta, but did you actually USE every power every day in every situation? I have.
[ QUOTE ]
While I appreciate that you seem to feel the "Sinister Six" have a use I can say that having played a bubbler for 4 years...they really don't have more than at best situational uses. And the occasional situation in which those powers come in handy don't justify the power slots and enhancements they eat up...
[/ QUOTE ]
Only "occasional" situations? You know what, just for you, I'm going to copy and paste selected excerpts from my many writings on the subject. Lets call this...
PK's Greatest Hits!
or misses, depending on your point of view... 
Detention Field - Recommended Slotting: 2 Accuracy, (3 Recharge Reduction and 1 Endurance Reduction Optional)
Imagine that the battlefield is like a chess board. Wouldn't you like to be able to take the Queen out of the game until there are no other enemy pieces left? This is essentially what Detention Field can do for you. You can use it on an enemy to take that enemy out of the fight for a short while. I have found three general uses for this power. When soloing you can use it as an alpha strike to make one less enemy that you have to fight at the same time. You can also use it on a dangerous boss or Sapper to take him out of the picture. The third use I've found for this power is to take out enemy 'buffers' from the battle, such as Devouring Earth eminators that they drop on the ground, Malta auto-turrets and Sky Raider's Force Field Generators. After all the other enemies are gone, the Detention Field should have lifted, and you can easily take out the helpless buffer if you choose to (they give no xp as far as I know). A very versatile and useful ability.
Repulsion Field - Recommended Slotting: 2 Endurance Reduction (3 Recharge Reduction if you want to use it alot or even Enhance Knockback if you want them to fly farther)
This is called Repulsion Field but the effect is actually a knockback effect, and its primary purpose is to keep melee enemies away from you by knocking them back. It does cost a bit of endurance when you are surrounded by a mob, but if you are on the outside edge of combat, this should not be an issue. The field itself doesn't use much endurance when no enemies are near you, and it can save you from sneak attacks from the back (I'm looking at you, Stalkers), or it will keep alot of tiny minions off of you (like Devouring Earth Swarms!). It, along with the PFF are the two primary powers to defend YOURSELF from attack. Note that with PFF on, this power is useless, so you would use this power when you still want to be able to attack enemies rather than hide from them. This power is also not as much of an aggro magnet as Force Bubble is, because it will only aggro enemies that you CHOOSE to bump into.
You can also choose to be a more active Defender and run around like crazy with it on to keep all the enemies off their feet. Just make sure you're not pissing off any tankers or scrappers by leaving their mobs alone. The 'crazy man' strategy is very useful for saving your team from a wipe and giving them a few precious seconds to escape.
Another use I found for this power is to save a teammate in trouble. Simply turn the power on and run to them, knocking the enemies away from them. If any attackers are killing your ally, you can also go towards THEM and keep them off their feet for a while. If you get into trouble from this, you can always turn on your PFF to protect yourself and to disperse the aggro you've obtained.
Finally, sitting with it on next to all but the most powerful villains (some Bosses and all AVs) will stack the knockback effect and make 90% of mobs go flying where a regular knockback power might just make them grunt.
Repulsion Bomb - Recommended Slotting: 1 Accuracy and 2 or 3 Recharges (This power can Disorient, but it's such a low chance it's really not worth slotting)
This power works like Force Bolt, but with an Area of Effect knockback and a 40% chance to disorient. Good to save teammates with, good as a battle starter, or just good as a general knockback power.
I think you could use this all of the time along with Force Bolt to keep enemies away from your squishy friends, and even your squishier (post-Issue 6) scrapper buddy, with their consent of course. All the scrapper has to do is pick one target and auto-follow them while attacking, so that when you shake all of the enemies off him, he can run right to the one he wants.
Another trick you can do I call the Big Bang and Crunch. You have an ally hold aggro, either a tank or another hero with taunt. Then you use repulsion bomb on an enemy near him and knock all the enemies back or onto the ground. They then have to get up, shake off disorientation and/or run back to the hero. This is plenty of time for yourself and other blaster types to go nuts on the enemies, hitting them as much as you want. The enemies then come back to the taunter, and you rinse and repeat. This tactic will not work as well as it has in the past because of the longer recharge time on the power than it used to be. You can also use this with Force Bolt to position enemies together or against a wall for Area of Effect attacks. You can then use Force Bolt to tuck in any that get out of the area.
Force Bubble - Recommended Slotting: 1 Endurance Reduction (Optionally 1 to 3 Recharges depending on how often you think you will make use of the power)
Finally we come to the final power of the set, the Force Bubble. It keeps enemies away from you, and pretty FAR away from you. This is a power that should probably not be used all the time, as it is noted for being the ultimate aggro magnet. This is mostly a click-and-use, then turn off when you don't need it kind of power, unlike Dispersion Bubble.
You can stand in the far back of the team formation and use it to keep your squishy friends safer, you can also even use it to 'pin' enemies against walls and corners to keep them immobile. A neat trick is to have your toughie friends sit on the very edge of the bubble, and if they run into trouble, they can hop back just a couple of steps into safety! You can also aggro some enemies around a corner and use this power to KEEP them around that corner, while your buddies blast away at them and you are relatively safe. You can also use this power to help your allies escape in the case of an emergency.
You can also make USE of the fact that the Force Bubble draws aggro towards you. Again, spread aggro is almost always better than aggro concentrated on a squishy, so you can use Force Bubble to push against the enemies and draw aggro to yourself. Then if you start to get low on health due to their ranged attacks, you can quickly turn on PFF. You now should have most of the aggro still on you, but you're almost invulnerable. When the enemies are aggroed by other heroes, the aggro will be more spread out, and will be less dangerous to any individual hero. You can rinse and repeat if another hero for some reason draws most of their fury.
Another neat trick only works in certain circumstances. Basically when you are in a room which goes INTO a short-in-width hallway, you can stand right around the corner of the hallway and turn the power on. Then whenever any mobs are aggroed, this acts as a barrier which they cannot pass. You can use this either just to keep the enemies away from your teammates, who are in the room and can blast at a safe distance, OR as a great way to give your allies a safe retreat.
Finally, the enemies in the game have two 'modes', melee mode (when you can see a melee weapon in their hand) and ranged mode. It usually takes a few seconds for them to switch modes, and when they are in melee mode, they many times prefer to STAY in melee mode. You can take advantage of this with the Force Bubble. You can either wait until the enemies are engaged in melee battle with another hero, or engage them yourself up close and personal, and then instantly activate the power. For many of the enemies, they will still remain in melee mode for a while and will keep trying to run at you rather than attack. If you continually back up and move forward again, moving the bubble and pushing against them in the process, you should be able to keep this up for a good while.
-----------------------------------------
Knockback = 100% Defense AND Damage Resistance. Plus another damage resistance buff for most allies because "in general" ranged damage from enemies is far less than melee damage from enemies, so if they are knocked back away from you and your squishy friends, they can't hurt you as much. It also gives a -50% debuff on melee players' damage-per-second as a side effect. Basically an enemy that's flying backwards and has to take the time to get up IS NOT ATTACKING YOU OR YOUR ALLIES. However, the melee players have to chase it down. Or they could ignore it and attack the enemies near them while the blaster attacks the flying enemy....
Do I think it's worth it to sacrifice some offensive power for defensive? Most of the time yes, because debt really kills your xp/hour ratio alot more than the dent in your damage-per-second. That's all opinion and playstyle preference though, it's very hard to quantify some things....
-----------------------------------------
DPS is like cholesterol...
The BORING DPS is Damage Per Second.
The FUN DPS is Defense Per Shot!
This refers to the fact that every time you knock an enemy back, it essentially provides you with 100% Defense and 100% Damage resistance for the 5 seconds it takes him to get knocked back, recover, and then get up again. If you KEEP using knockback powers all over the place, enemies will only have a CHANCE to get off an attack less than 25% of the time.
Knockback powers sure kill your boring DPS but it adds a HUGE injection into your FUN DPS!
---------------------------------------------
When the S**T HITS THE FAN however, the good FF Defender is "authorized" to cut totally loose and knock everything in every which direction and get them all on their butts and not attacking their teammates. This is where Vigilance and the benefits of it kick in the most. It makes FF the ULTIMATE damage mitigator for three reasons:
1) It knocks enemies AWAY from your allies and in GENERAL ranged damage from enemies is less than melee damage. What also helps with this is that enemies that are stuck in "melee" mode often times WON'T ATTACK BACK with a ranged attack, they will just keep running to try to get to you and attack you in melee.
2) Enemies ON THEIR BACKS aren't fighting and aren't attacking, so that means that with every knockback attack that you use on every enemy, that's about 5 seconds break you get from that enemy doing ANYTHING to you. Multiply that by the entire MOB getting knocked on their butts after you jump in the middle of them with Repulsion Field and your whole team gets a 5 second break to get out of there!
3) It draws the enemies attention AWAY from your teammates, allowing you to tank for a short time as the enemies turn to look at the guy that knocked them on their butt. Use Force Bubble and you will get the attention of almost the ENTIRE MOB! Then when the heat is on the FFer and the FFer looks in trouble due to their weak personal defense? Personal Force Field, BAM! The enemies try to attack the FFer and they can't TOUCH him. That gives the rest of the team another 5-10 seconds of protection as the enemies "discover" that this guy is untouchable. After they discover that, they slowly "peel off" of the FFer one by one and THEN try to find another target.
But my point is here, you couldn't do all of that half as well without Vigilance. After bubbling your whole team AND blasting all the time with your attacks, all of these knockback/repulsion/capture effects would be useless if you didn't have the endurance to use them.
Vigilance truly lets the FFer be "always vigilant". Vigilance lets FFers be more than a buffbot, it allows them to attack freely, knowing that they will have the endurance that they need to turn the tide of the battle when things get rough.
That is the power of Vigilance.
----------------------------------------------
Here is the timing for knockback. You activate the power, the enemy starts flying back. They fly through the air for about 1 to 2 seconds. Add to that animation time for them to get back up again, 2 MORE seconds. Add to that the fact that if the enemy was in "melee" mode, the AI tends to like to STAY in melee mode, so it will take them ANOTHER 1 to 2 seconds for them to run back to you. So if you add it up, you get 4-6 seconds of complete protection from EACH knockback. That's good stuff, and not something that most people think about. If you actually add Knockback Distance modifiers to your KB powers and knock the enemies back through a clear unobstructed path, they fly farther, so they have more "air time" AND take longer to get back to you. It's all gravy.
Meanwhile, if you have Repulsion Field on all the time like I do, any enemy that gets NEAR you gets one hit in, and then they are out of the game for 4-6 seconds, with NO action required on your part. You can be blasting away at another guy at the same time the melee-er is trying to gank you. That's alot of protective power, it's like a free lunch. It means you don't have to worry about your own personal defense as much. Even on enemies that are knockback RESISTANT, with 2 or 3 "pulses" of the Field, they will be knocked back. Everything but AVs and Elite Bosses and a FEW bosses. But (IMHO) sadly, most people don't see the advantage of that, so they don't take or use the Field. I personally think it's awesome, but it could be more so.
It SAYS that it's a PBAoE knockback, but the range is actually 7 feet. It ends up being PBAoE because the knockback "pulses" are so slow that an enemy can get up to you and hit you once before they get knocked back. I'd love to see that sped up so that we can use it to defend ourselves, but honestly I can SEE the exploits that that could cause, that's why I suggest upping the endurance cost per hit by 3 or 4 times what it is now, to reduce these kinds of exploits.
But yes, there is a pretty high learning curve to learning how to use knockback effectively. But once you've mastered it, it will be your best friend.
Knockback = 100% Defense and 100% Damage resistance for 4-6 seconds at a time.
-------------------------------------------------
We don't roll the same way others do. We have limitations and we LIKE it. We like to keep our team defended with Defense numbers. We also like to keep our team defended by doing things that no one else can do.
We can phase shift enemies at will to save them for later, put them in the Glass Bottle of Doom while we take out all of their friends, then when they are all alone we can see the fear in their eyes as the Glass Bottle that was protecting them fades away.
We can precisely Force Bolt an individual enemy away, and slotting that power well, we can do it forever.
We can knock an entire mob backwards, off of their feet, away from you AND leave half of them disoriented.
We can CLEAR A ROOM or the center of the Rikti Mothership of all enemies with one 3 second "tap" of one power. We can choose to keep them out of there by keeping that power on, or we can let them run back to us by releasing it. It is our choice.
We can aggro an entire room while we are standing in ONE place, and then protect ourselves from any retaliation.
We can take the alpha better than a tank, and make sure that that aggro gets spread evenly so that no one hero takes it all.
We can also make ourselves virtually invincible and untouchable by all but the most powerful enemies.
We can't heal, we can't debuff, we can't make you do damage faster. We don't WANT to. We WANT the challenge that comes with our powers, we THRIVE on it.
We are the few, the proud, the bubblers.
You either understand our mentality, or you wish the powerset was something else. If you understand us, you are with us, and we are glad to have you. If you wish the powerset was something else, then play something else, and enjoy it!
ForceFields are not for everyone, but they are for us.
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, it has some questionable powers. And yes, ideally they should be more universally respected. But should all players be forced to adjust to a set that is so designed, after a long time playing with one that wasn't? I don't find that to be a trivial question to answer.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is part of the reason why we're only asking for "tweaks" instead of "cottages". If you don't get the terminology, check out the Castle quote from the original post.
[ QUOTE ]
I would feel comfortable saying that its very likely a majority of FF players are not especially happy with the non-bubbles also. But that's not quite what I said: I said I'm not certain that a majority of players think that is actually a major problem.
[/ QUOTE ]
Correct. One of the "selling points" of FF is that it can be played with so few powers. Even folks like me who are saying "but the rest of the powers are good to if you invest time in them" don't deny that.
So, from that, if these changes we're discussing were made, would players suddenly take these powers? I'm guessing no. A "fixed" FF is already available: Sonic. Not many folks play that set either.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Wow... way too much "out of the box" thinking here. I shouldn't have to work so hard to figure out how to make FF powers useful. They should be useful right out of the box.
And here in lies the problem with FF.
1.) First off, it's a proactive rather than reactive set. Now if the bubbles are sufficient protection for the team, then you're fine. If the bubbles aren't, then there isn't much more you can bring to the table other than knocking foes all over the place all willy-nilly, which is likely to get you booted very quickly from most teams.
2.) Other than the big 3 the set doesn't really offer anything that's better or even comparable to powers in other sets. Force Bubble is a fat, bloated, underpowered version of hurricane. Repulsion Field is the red-headed stepchild of Kinetics/Repel, but it significantly more difficult to use due to the mechanics of the bubble. This is not to say Repel is all that great either, most kins skip it religiously. But it works better than Repulsion Field, so what's that say about RF?
3.) Force Bolt is, IMO, a wasted power to take. Almost every single Defender secondary has at least one power with KB that does damage. Why do you need another that does KB with no damage? It's pretty much why no one takes Power Push. In a set full of KB, why bother?
4.) Detention Field is all but useless except in solo or duos. Period. Use of this power on a large team is a quick ticket to kicksville. It's the same reason NO ONE takes Black Hole or Dimension Shift. I have made this suggestion before, but the way to fix these powers is to make them toggles with a maximum duration, ala phase shift. Nothing is worse than a team standing around waiting for DF to drop so they can kill the last baddie of the spawn. If the power were changed to a limited toggle at least you could control pulling down the field when you wanted to. Short of that, just turn it into a something of a ghetto hold by dropping the "cannot be attacked" flag but keeping the "cannot attack" and immobilize features, and shortening the duration to match that of other Defender holds. At least that way it doesn't last forever and the target can be attacked. And since it's not a true hold, you're not really changing the core function of the power, which is to lock them away in a field in which they cannot move or attack.
5.) Repulsion Bomb. See previous entries as to why uncontrolled 360 degree KB is BAD. You want to make this power useful, turn it into a cone. KB newbs will still have issues with using it, but the more experienced KB users will actually be able to get something from this. Directional KB, used correctly, is very useful. Omnidirectional KB is just bad no matter how you slice it.
6.) Force Bubble. What can be said about this 500 lb brute of a power other than MEH... The bubble is so large trying to use it indoors will likely aggro the entire room (I've been there, done that...), and it makes no sense why the radius is twice that of Dispersion Bubble. It should be just the opposite. This way melee fighters can be outside Force Bubble but still inside Dispersion Bubble. And for God's sake it's a tier 9 power. I bust my [censored] to get to lvl 32 and get this pile of manure as my final power? Compare the utility of Force Bubble to other tier 9s -- Dark Servant, Fulcrum Shift, EM Pulse, etc. Every single one of them is leaps and bounds more useful than FB. And again, it's a 360 degree repel, pushing everything not immune to repel 50' away from the Defender. Big deal. You want to get out of melee range take Hover at lvl 6 and float above the crowds. Or if you really want to push it take Group Fly at lvl 22 and let everyone float above the crowds. Either is a better alternative to the highly unwieldy Force Bubble. How to fix it? Shrink the bubble to 15' (still large enough for many teammates to fit into and keep foes out of melee range, but small enough that you don't unintentionally aggro nearby mobs as well as allow melee teammates to be outside FB but inside DB), and in addition to the repel add a knockDOWN, NOT back. Any foe that tries to enter the field is knocked down and pushed out. This at least gives it some semblance of equality to other tier 9 powers.
And here's the the other problem. Since these powers were so poorly designed back in the dark ages of CoH, and with their policy of never changing a power's core function, I simply don't see how you can fix most of these powers. You can adjust them here and there, add some extra buffs or debuffs, but all that's going to do is take them from utterly useless to marginally useful (as in, ok I have nothing better to take so I guess I can go with the revamped Repulsion Bomb).
On the flip side, I kinda like that FF has so many useless powers. The very second character I created was FF/Psi, way back in July 04. Yeah, I still have him, but he's been stuck at level 33 for years. On one hand it's nice to be able to skip so much of FF, allowing me to take virtually all my attacks, the fitness and leadership pools, and also be able to slot them up nicely.
On the other hand it gets very boring very quickly playing like this. You bubble up the team every 4 minutes, and in between you're attacking. But since you do pathetic amounts of damage (and I mean REALLY pathetic) you don't feel like you're contributing much. And the general perception from those that can't fully appreciate bubbles is that you're not contributing much either. And that kinda sucks.
And oh, did I mention Vigilance is absolutely 100% useless for an FF Defender? Yet another ability other Defenders can take advantage of that FF can't. Vigilance should be based upon the number of foes within a certain distance of you, kinda like Invincibility or Rise to the Challenge, except with a very large radius, say 25'. The more foes around you, the more Vigilant and endurance efficient you become. Tying it into teammate health is the same reason Defiance 1.0 didn't work.
Wow, I almost completely deflated your post before you posted it. Read above please.
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I think I can make the argument that FF has the advantage in defense, although no defense (i.e. mitigation) situation is ever "obvious." But I don't know that I believe it has enough of an advantage.
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I think this basically sums up what Jade 'n' I have been saying. If you're going to do one thing (in FF's case, damage mitigation), you should /always/ be the best at it. This isn't the case. And it has very, very little to do with FF's defense buffs. The Big Three are good bordering on broken, but there are situations where something more than def is needed, and those are typically situations where FF's other mitigation powers come up short, either by being ineffective or simply not gelling with "ranged" or AoE powers.
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Even if it does [have enough of an advantage], I think that's both a blessing and a curse in terms of how the set functions overall, which is why I think it still has design issues. But I don't think blatant underperformance is its problem. I think the problem with the set is more subtle than that, separate from the issues many (but not necessarily a majority) of players have with the way the set seems to play.
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FF is just an oddity. It seems to have been designed at a time when "distance as mitigation" was an integral part of the game design. When that equation slipped away, the devs systematically started improving The Big Three (well, Four, when FF had 3 single target buffs), with a significant detour at the GDR, to the point where the original vision of the bubbler* got lost. And that's a shame since I think the KB and repel in FF were intended to be a huge advantage to the bubbler herself.
And, from one of your previous comments:
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The FF set itself doesn't have a lot of offense, but you'd think a defender that only took three powers in the primary (and they are all good powers), had nothing but 4 minute cycling clicks, and very low endurance burn rate when operating at full efficiency would have a lot of room for offense.
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What's interesting here is that my bubbler has 7 or 8 of her secondary powers, heavily slotted. She always has an attack to click. But she's s-l-o-w to solo, far slower than my dark defender who has /5/ attacks, one of which is a snipe. My bubbler works against the regen rates of lieuts and bosses; my dark defender doesn't. That alone makes a difference.
FWIW, I think FF needs a slot sink, perhaps something in the early levels, something so good that it makes the defender have to make a decision about when to slot the two small bubbles. I dunno what that power should be like, but I'm pretty sure it should be there.
* a brief history lesson, for anyone who bothers to read what I write. FF had 3 single target bubbles on 2 minute timers in Beta. I.e., it was pretty much impossible to keep a full team buffed. The game plan seems to have been, "Buff whoever needs it, and watch out for who's taking what kind of damage. From 18 to 32, evolve away from buffing into keeping mobs out of melee for squishies and onto rooted tankers." As Empathy moves from healing to more general purpose buffing, so to would FF evolve from buffing to throwing. That ... didn't work out.
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5.) Repulsion Bomb. See previous entries as to why uncontrolled 360 degree KB is BAD.
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Is it really so hard to stand on the edge of the group and use the power? There's no 360 KB then.
And when the teams getting swarmed, a 360 KB followed by Force Bubble can be awesome. It splits the baddies into smaller groups. You can use geometery to keep the groups seperated and the team can focus on one small group at a time.
I don't want to go through the rest of your post line by line. This example serves. And while I can understand the feeling of many folks frustrated with the powers, at the same time once you get a feel for them they're extremely useful.
That, combined with the idea that the Devs have already listened to the player base once and came out with a "fixed" FF that nobody plays (Sonic) is why I don't really want to see FF "fixed" by the player base. The set's not broken and I don't see where some folks are getting the idea that "fixing" it will make it more popular.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
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Wow, I almost completely deflated your post before you posted it. Read above please.
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Yes, but as I said in the first sentence of my post, I shouldn't need a user's guide to FF to be able effectively use my powers. No other powerset needs that kind of guidance. It simply reinforces that the set is poorly designed.
Ok, so I *can* aggro the entire room. So what then? I certainly can't defeat them. And if you think Force Bubble and Dispersion Bubble are going to protect me from dying, brother it's you that needs a refresher course in FF.
So yeah, there are lots of things you CAN do with FF powers, but none of them are really much use to anyone. I can bounce foes all over the map like ping pong balls. Ok, so what? Does that earn me XP? Does that make it easier for me or my team to defeat them. Hardly. Just the opposite.
Now you may have come up with a list of innovative and exciting ways of using the undesirable FF powers, and hey, more power to ya for it, but the rest of use just want effective powers that work, without requiring a tutorial or advanced degree.
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That, combined with the idea that the Devs have already listened to the player base once and came out with a "fixed" FF that nobody plays (Sonic) is why I don't really want to see FF "fixed" by the player base.
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You've said this several times. Sonics is NOT FF. Defense works differently than Damage Resistance and is actually LESS effective, which makes Sonic's rings in general less useful than bubbles, and the entire rest of the Sonics set has almost no similarities to FF. And NO ONE is seriously suggesting that we completely change half the powers (looks up) okay, almost no one. We just want some "tweaks" to differentiate the set from the other FF sets. That's all.
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Ok, so I *can* aggro the entire room. So what then? I certainly can't defeat them. And if you think Force Bubble and Dispersion Bubble are going to protect me from dying, brother it's you that needs a refresher course in FF.
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Personal Force Field: 75% Defense to ALL and 40% Resistance to anything that actually gets THROUGH.
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Now you may have come up with a list of innovative and exciting ways of using the undesirable FF powers, and hey, more power to ya for it, but the rest of use just want effective powers that work, without requiring a tutorial or advanced degree.
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Point taken, and I'd say you're probably right on that.
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That, combined with the idea that the Devs have already listened to the player base once and came out with a "fixed" FF that nobody plays (Sonic) is why I don't really want to see FF "fixed" by the player base.
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You've said this several times. Sonics is NOT FF. Defense works differently than Damage Resistance and is actually LESS effective, which makes Sonic's rings in general less useful than bubbles, and the entire rest of the Sonics set has almost no similarities to FF. And NO ONE is seriously suggesting that we completely change half the powers (looks up) okay, almost no one. We just want some "tweaks" to differentiate the set from the other FF sets. That's all.
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Yes, I realize FF is not Sonic. But when Sonic came out everyone was saying "No one will play FF again." and they _were_ saying it was "FF done right".
Well, IMHO, FF is FF done right and certainly no one is making such outlandish claims about Sonic anymore.
I understand your desire for wanting to see your favorite set become more popular. I'm just offering the idea that attempts to appeal to the more casual player have failed once and may fail again. And that just because you have some folks on a message board saying "I would play FF if..." doesn't mean they'd play FF if.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
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* a brief history lesson, for anyone who bothers to read what I write. FF had 3 single target bubbles on 2 minute timers in Beta. I.e., it was pretty much impossible to keep a full team buffed. The game plan seems to have been, "Buff whoever needs it, and watch out for who's taking what kind of damage. From 18 to 32, evolve away from buffing into keeping mobs out of melee for squishies and onto rooted tankers." As Empathy moves from healing to more general purpose buffing, so to would FF evolve from buffing to throwing. That ... didn't work out.
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I wasn't specifically in beta, but unless this was explicitly stated during beta, I don't think that was the intent. It appeared, based on the discussion surrounding the time when the two ally bubbles were bumped to 4 minutes that the original intent appeared to be, as so many things were in the original conception for the game, that the bubbles were supposed to cost "just enough" in time and endurance to make you think about whether to apply them or not, rather than to monotonously perma them, so that the bubbles presented an actual tactical decision. It took the devs a while to realize that a sizeable percentage of the player population (right or wrong) didn't want or believe in "tactical options." They believed if you had it, you were supposed to always use it. That if you had it, and didn't use it, and something went wrong because of that, it would be extremely frustrating for some players. Basically, their playerbase would be very quickly addicted to power: if a player got a taste of it, they would never accept not having it all the time.
Ironically, when they did bump the bubbles to four minutes, I predicted that within a year, some FF defenders would be complaining that the set was boring because once you deployed the bubbles, there was nothing to do. I was wrong: it took less than six months.
One thing I find interesting about the psychology of the game (and MMOs in general) is that MMO designers tend to think of their creation as a game, and design it as if it was a set of interlocking mini-games. Games have challenges, and hurdles, and points, and rewards.
But a lot of players don't see CoH (or any other MMO) as a game. They see it as something closer to a marathon. XP isn't points, XP is progress. There's a goal, and its the finish line. And what they want is a straight, clear, level path to it that they can run at their own pace. They do not want an obstacle course, or a day of Ninja Warrior. They just want to jog straight ahead, maybe with some friends, make it to the next checkpoint, and then quit for the day. They do not want to dodge a bunch of swinging sandbags while doing it. That's why they want their characters to perform at a particular, predictable level, every day, every hour, and every minute, until its time to move to the next level.
I *don't*, in general, play that way, which is why I find the perspective interesting.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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5.) Repulsion Bomb. See previous entries as to why uncontrolled 360 degree KB is BAD.
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Is it really so hard to stand on the edge of the group and use the power? There's no 360 KB then.
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So I need to wait until all the foes are standing in a line facing me, at which time I need to run up the the front of the line to drop Repulsion Bomb, hoping that no one turns and gets tossed sideways instead of back. Make it a cone, target the back of the mobs and they always fly backwards. Done. Why make more work for yourself?
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And when the teams getting swarmed, a 360 KB followed by Force Bubble can be awesome. It splits the baddies into smaller groups. You can use geometery to keep the groups seperated and the team can focus on one small group at a time.
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I can't even imagine the havok this would cause, not to mention the craploads of aggro that would suddenly be on your squishy [censored]. If the team is getting "swarmed" a cone KB is just as effective and actually allows you to PLACE them where you want them. And if you're getting swarmed, why on earth would you fire up a 50' bubble that's only going to aggro anything and everthing even remotely close to you.
Honey, I've been there, done that. I at one time had all these powers, tried my damnedest to make use of them, and realized they weren't worth the effort.
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I don't want to go through the rest of your post line by line. This example serves. And while I can understand the feeling of many folks frustrated with the powers, at the same time once you get a feel for them they're extremely useful.
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Yes, it server only to underscore how the only way to get any kind of effectiveness out of FF powers is to become some kind of geometry/bubble guru, something most players simply do not want to become. Now you may like the challenge of finding ways to get these insidious powers to work for you, but you are in the teeny weeny minority -- the same way many people just don't have the patience or fortitude to deal with Kheldians. The learning curve is way too steep for what's billed as a "casual" MMO. If the power requires hours of my time refining its use, there's something wrong with it.
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That, combined with the idea that the Devs have already listened to the player base once and came out with a "fixed" FF that nobody plays (Sonic) is why I don't really want to see FF "fixed" by the player base. The set's not broken and I don't see where some folks are getting the idea that "fixing" it will make it more popular.
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Actually, I really like the sonic set. And you're right, in many ways it's what FF should have been. I have both an empathy/sonic and a stone/sonic, so I've used both sets. I don't exactly know why it's considered such a underrated set, but I can tell you it's lightyears beyond FF, with virtually every power being usable right from the get go -- no extensive boot camp training required.
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It appeared, based on the discussion surrounding the time when the two ally bubbles were bumped to 4 minutes that the original intent appeared to be, as so many things were in the original conception for the game, that the bubbles were supposed to cost "just enough" in time and endurance to make you think about whether to apply them or not, rather than to monotonously perma them, so that the bubbles presented an actual tactical decision.
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/em scratches head
Isn't that what I said?
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The game plan seems to have been, "Buff whoever needs it, and watch out for who's taking what kind of damage. From 18 to 32, evolve away from buffing into keeping mobs out of melee for squishies and onto rooted tankers."
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I was actually going to use "tactical" as an adverb in my post, but I couldn't wrap my head around the spelling this late at night.
And another FWIW: I think combat was supposed to be much more interesting and dynamic than it turned out to be. Tactical bubble buffs. Rooted tankers. Ice tankers requiring mez buffs. Burn patches for containing 'n' herding mobs. I wonder what other things the devs were unable to pull off?
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And another FWIW: I think combat was supposed to be much more interesting and dynamic than it turned out to be. Tactical bubble buffs. Rooted tankers. Ice tankers requiring mez buffs. Burn patches for containing 'n' herding mobs. I wonder what other things the devs were unable to pull off?
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Sounds like an RO team.
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Ok, so I *can* aggro the entire room. So what then? I certainly can't defeat them. And if you think Force Bubble and Dispersion Bubble are going to protect me from dying, brother it's you that needs a refresher course in FF.
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Personal Force Field: 75% Defense to ALL and 40% Resistance to anything that actually gets THROUGH.
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Now you may have come up with a list of innovative and exciting ways of using the undesirable FF powers, and hey, more power to ya for it, but the rest of use just want effective powers that work, without requiring a tutorial or advanced degree.
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Point taken, and I'd say you're probably right on that.
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Yes, but putting up PFF takes down dispersion bubble and force bubble. So those that you've aggroed and once kept at bay are now free to swarm right up to you and start firing. Now if you're lucky enough to survive that kind of punishment (all it takes is a few lucky hits from an LT or boss and you're dead, with with PFF) it won't be long before you lose that aggro and they wander off to attack the troller standing a few feet away from you. Then what hot shot?
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Yes, it server only to underscore how the only way to get any kind of effectiveness out of FF powers is to become some kind of geometry/bubble guru, something most players simply do not want to become.
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I wouldn't have phrased it that way, but in general I agree with you. After playing bubbles for years I'm _still_ learning things I can do with them. For me, that's a huge plus for the set.
And again, it's not hard for me to see why some folks wouldn't be happy with that. For them, there's the option of just taking the "Big 3" or playing a more straight forward set like Sonic.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but putting up PFF takes down dispersion bubble and force bubble. So those that you've aggroed and once kept at bay are now free to swarm right up to you and start firing. Now if you're lucky enough to survive that kind of punishment (all it takes is a few lucky hits from an LT or boss and you're dead, with with PFF) it won't be long before you lose that aggro and they wander off to attack the troller standing a few feet away from you. Then what hot shot?
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Ummmmmmm..... 1- I've NEVER been killed inside PFF in four years and 200 levels of playing, I don't know what you're doing wrong and 2 - Once you've "lost" the aggro, you turn OFF PFF and start knocking back again, giving you a few more seconds for PFF to recharge again. Rinse and repeat.
Seriously, have you ever TRIED to play like this before? It's a whole different world.
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When you get right down to it, though, we're talking about a fairly equal balance between the three. Rad has strong defenses, but really doesn't measure up quite to the other two. Dark is strong defensively, but in ways that FF isn't, and FF is strong in ways Dark isn't. The bigger question is, if FF is NOT significantly more powerful defensively, should it not also have comparable power offensively, at least compared to Dark?
I don't really have any problem with Dark being comparable to Force Field. I just want to see the two either be more comparable, or Force Field have the obvious advantage in defense.
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I think I can make the argument that FF has the advantage in defense, although no defense (i.e. mitigation) situation is ever "obvious." But I don't know that I believe it has enough of an advantage.
Even if it does, I think that's both a blessing and a curse in terms of how the set functions overall, which is why I think it still has design issues. But I don't think blatant underperformance is its problem. I think the problem with the set is more subtle than that, separate from the issues many (but not necessarily a majority) of players have with the way the set seems to play.
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