[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but putting up PFF takes down dispersion bubble and force bubble. So those that you've aggroed and once kept at bay are now free to swarm right up to you and start firing. Now if you're lucky enough to survive that kind of punishment (all it takes is a few lucky hits from an LT or boss and you're dead, with with PFF) it won't be long before you lose that aggro and they wander off to attack the troller standing a few feet away from you. Then what hot shot?
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm... taking punishment is what FF is all about. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but please have a look at my FF video to see what I'm talking about.
It's moments like you're describing that are the main reason I love playing FF, they don't make me want to play something else.
Edit:
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting points indeed, and I can agree with virtually all of them. Every now and again I'l run into a FF defender or troller that, despite having the two teammate bubbles, simply won't use them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, we Controllers feel that our first line of team defense is our control. It's not uncommon for us (me included) to stop bubbling the team if we see our controls have the green bars at or near full.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but putting up PFF takes down dispersion bubble and force bubble. So those that you've aggroed and once kept at bay are now free to swarm right up to you and start firing. Now if you're lucky enough to survive that kind of punishment (all it takes is a few lucky hits from an LT or boss and you're dead, with with PFF) it won't be long before you lose that aggro and they wander off to attack the troller standing a few feet away from you. Then what hot shot?
[/ QUOTE ]
Ummmmmmm..... 1- I've NEVER been killed inside PFF in four years and 200 levels of playing, I don't know what you're doing wrong and 2 - Once you've "lost" the aggro, you turn OFF PFF and start knocking back again, giving you a few more seconds for PFF to recharge again. Rinse and repeat.
Seriously, have you ever TRIED to play like this before? It's a whole different world.
[/ QUOTE ]
Previous to the defense change it was quite easy for an LT or Boss, especially if they were a level or two above you, to punch right thru PFF. And like I said, it doesn't take too many hits to kill you. If you're surrounded by 20 foes, at least 1 of them on average is going to hit you every time.
In the early days, it was quite common to be hit numerous times with PFF up. Times have changed, and it's a much better defensive power than it used to be (and you'll notice I never mentioned PFF in my FF rant).
But honestly, no, I can say for sure I have never attempted to play FF control bot in the manner you've described. If I wanted control, I'd play a troller with FF as a secondary.
There was one time when I still have Force bubble when I was in a similar situation. The bubble was so big when we entered the room I managed to aggro nearly every foe in the room, both upstairs and downstairs, who all came runnin and gunnin. Now if I dropped Force bubble and put up PFF, sure, I would be safe, by my teammates would have gotten obliterated. If I stayed there with Force Bubble and Dispersion Bubble, I would have certainly died from all the aggro. It was a no-win situation. And it's not likeyou can just toggle from one power to another instantly, they all have pretty long recharges.
It ended up a near total team wipe, with the only survivor being me, cause I chickend out and threw up PFF, leaving me helpless inside this bubble, unable to act, while 5 spawns obliterated my team.
Force Bubble was gone via respec the next day. Any power that can inadvertantly cause such a scenario is BROKEN.
The Force is not strong in this one, he needs more training to become a Master.... 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You still will have to keep casting Deflection and Insulation every 4 mins, the buff from Dispersion will still only work while teammates are within the radius and dispersion will still always have to be on.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think what you just said explains it right there. You're talking about taking AWAY about 5% in Defense effectiveness from the "smaller" bubbles from all the teammates. The teammates now only get the bonus when they ARE inside the "big bubble". To respond to Dromio's post up there, that will encourage bubblers to "stay in the middle" of the team rather than "jump all over" using positioning to make their knockback more effective and useful. That's how I see it. And you're right, it's entirely opinion, not fact. I can see where a bubbler might feel more "safe" jumping around and aggroing everything with his other powers with the added person Defense (I certainly would), however, I think MOST people will just see the fact that they "have" to sit in the middle of the team so that most of the team gets the same bonus that they used to before the proposed change. Again, it's all opinion, and in my opinion, that's how most people will see it.
Can't you see where they might act that way?
[/ QUOTE ]
Forgive me if it's already been pointed out, I've been away a couple of days and the thread grew exponentially: If they aren't already acting that way because of the Status protection, 5% of defense bonus isn't going to change that.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
[ QUOTE ]
The Force is not strong in this one, he needs more training to become a Master....
[/ QUOTE ]
Which I have repeated stated, that if it requires that much work, there is something wrong. Yes, it's obvious that you and MagicJ thrive on that level of complication, but the rest of us just don't.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Force is not strong in this one, he needs more training to become a Master....
[/ QUOTE ]
Which I have repeated stated, that if it requires that much work, there is something wrong. Yes, it's obvious that you and MagicJ thrive on that level of complication, but the rest of us just don't.
[/ QUOTE ]
And honestly I'm happy with that. I don't mind if most folks feel another set is a better match for them.
But what I'd hate to see is FF made just like every other set. I'm very happy the game has a set that's a bit more work. Please don't take that away from me. Folks who want straight forward sets already have lots of choices. I don't.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Force is not strong in this one, he needs more training to become a Master....
[/ QUOTE ]
Which I have repeated stated, that if it requires that much work, there is something wrong. Yes, it's obvious that you and MagicJ thrive on that level of complication, but the rest of us just don't.
[/ QUOTE ]
And honestly I'm happy with that. I don't mind if most folks feel another set is a better match for them.
But what I'd hate to see is FF made just like every other set. I'm very happy the game has a set that's a bit more work. Please don't take that away from me. Folks who want straight forward sets already have lots of choices. I don't.
[/ QUOTE ]
I really like your videos, but I can't help but think your views are coloured a controller shade. They're your secondary, our primary. Go play your FF/* for a bit and come talk.
No matter what happens it will still be a knock back, geometry guru set. I'm just hoping it gets a -res or something to help the damage output match my other defenders.
That video showcases Mind/ a lot more than /FF. Every time you get in trouble, troller powers to the rescue!
Yeah, I'm not sure this thread is going anywhere.
~Gabriel
Hey, Dr. Phil...
Your last few posts have been nothing but you "deflating" and attacking everyone who posts anything saying anything negative about FF. You accuse me for some odd reason of wanting things to only be how I want (I assume this from your City of Powerhelm comment)
Yet every time someone suggests a way to change FF to make all the pwoers more useful....you scream about how FF is already fine if you know how to use it and point people to YOUR guide...basically saying it should be City of PhiloticKnight. As for your experience...you have 200 "levels" of experience...which range from 25 minutes to 2 days to gain or less. It doesn't matter how many "levels" you have, or even hours in game. None of us care because your hours playing how you choose have no affect whatsoever on how WE wish to play. Just because you revel in occasionally being able to use your mediocre powers doesn't mean we all do.
[ QUOTE ]
Personal Force Field: 75% Defense to ALL and 40% Resistance to anything that actually gets THROUGH.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wait? Who's protecting the team while you're hiding in your bubble? None of your powers help your teammates (Leadership, Dispersion bubble, etc) when you're in the PFF.
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I realize FF is not Sonic. But when Sonic came out everyone was saying "No one will play FF again." and they _were_ saying it was "FF done right".
[/ QUOTE ]
You know what they meant by "FF done right"? It wasn't all buff. There's debuffing in there too, some that's quite effective in fact. There's, in fact, something useful that anyone that plays that set can use in almost any play style aside the "holy trinity of bubbles"
[ QUOTE ]
Ironically, when they did bump the bubbles to four minutes, I predicted that within a year, some FF defenders would be complaining that the set was boring because once you deployed the bubbles, there was nothing to do. I was wrong: it took less than six months.
[/ QUOTE ]
Some of us were complaining about not having anything to do long before that, with 2 minute timers we did nothing but turn on Dispersion and Leadership then constantly recast bubbles. After they bumped those to 4 minutes and people bothered to try other powers they noted that the others were no where near as useful overall as the others.
Repulsion bomb doesn't always toss people, in fact the ones a Defender would need tossed for his own safety are the exact ones that almost never get tossed. They get slightly pushed back, but not before they can attack.
Also you ahve to stand still and wait for a pulse to register before they "fly back" IF the go back at all.
[ QUOTE ]
And when the teams getting swarmed, a 360 KB followed by Force Bubble can be awesome. It splits the baddies into smaller groups. You can use geometery to keep the groups seperated and the team can focus on one small group at a time.
[/ QUOTE ]
See: Tanker Aggro Control
See: Blaster AoE Setup
See: Frustration
Some people in this thread are so caught up in their defender play style with bubbles and how they use them that they aren't taking into account other players' playstyle and power sets. Almost NO player wants to be on a team where the bad guys are sporadically and randomly tossed all over the place. Especially given the level of unreliability with the KB in FF. It's not like they're all, always, on their butts.
This makes it impossible for a blaster to BOOM a large group, difficult for a tanker relying on gauntlet or aggro auras to keep aggro off the squishies not to mention scrappers cones/pbaoes and controller AoEs.
There shouldn't be only one way (The Dr. Phil way) to use my powersets. They should have atleast half the set being useful in every fight.
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, have you ever TRIED to play like this before? It's a whole different world.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Force is not strong in this one, he needs more training to become a Master....
[/ QUOTE ]
The only thing that needs deflating is that ego.
You made a thread for FF suggestions, then brag about it getting stickied and a stupid title that no one would have noticed had you not mentioned it and then when people suggest changes you don't like, instead of explaining why, overall, those changes aren't good you just tell them they need to be playing how you play and to hell with their own preferences or playstyle.
[ QUOTE ]
But what I'd hate to see is FF made just like every other set. I'm very happy the game has a set that's a bit more work. Please don't take that away from me. Folks who want straight forward sets already have lots of choices. I don't.
[/ QUOTE ]
So...making Repulsion field (essentially a pulsing version of the Kinetics field with a barely larger affect area that doesn't stop melee damage a heckuva lot better) a repulsion bubble...
Making Detention Field...a FIELD or some other change to make it different from Sonics...
Wanting a dispersion/Force bubble size switch to make them more helpful to all teams and teammates...
None of these changes would really harm your playstyle...or force you to change that much. You mention not wanting FF to be like other sets, we're asking to make it more different! Basically FF is just a movement heavy controller the way you play it.
PK You never addressed my comment regarding constantly knocking enemies out of AoE and aggro radius other than to say only bad FFers do that...So do you announce everytime you're gonna repulsion bomb? Otherwise there's no way in a team with a blaster that you could not be knocking out at least a few mobs each time, adding that much more time and work to your team's mission time.
[ QUOTE ]
Now if you can look at that, and look at all of the OTHER experienced FF players that also don't want to throw out the whole set and make a new one... if you can look at all of us and tell us we're all wrong and you're right.... well then, I hope you enjoy City of Powerhelm. Because that's all that it will be.
[/ QUOTE ]
Odd thing happened, looking over my post I don't see me saying throw out the whole set. In fact I only stated a desire to see two of quite possibly the least used powers in FF (RB an RP) altered both in fairly minor and very VERY team friendly ways. Ways that also greatly differentiate them from other existing powers even more than they already are.
PFF I actually asked to get the ability to affect allies...thats it...no tossing it out, no drastic change...
HECK, I just asked that FBolt be BETTER at knocking back reliably, no change other than injecting a few roids in that sucker...
I made no suggestions that would ruin even your playstyle and would make the set not only more team friendly but would also make the powers different enough that people can actually PLAY DIFFERENT POWERS than everyone else and STILL be effective. As opposed to the cookie cutters that FF defenders et all have become. For instance name a FFer that doesn't have the holy Trinity of bubbles and still gets not only invited to teams but remains in them after telling them this fact...None.
Oops, my bad I care about the people I team with and not showing off what I can do with my bubbles. Ok, Gilderoy Lockhart. If you want to rip into me for having a freaking personal opinion. Not even a radical or drastic one, to make yourself feel better fine go for it but don't go, bragging about titles and time spent in game and how your guide is the answer to every FFer's woes then accuse ME of vying for a City of Powerhelm.
[ QUOTE ]
There _are_differences already in ATs for FF. Controller bubbles are weaker than Defenders, MasterMinds can't get PFF till (I think) level 18, etc. But in all cases I know of the differences basically amount to minor nerfs to the set for all non-Defender ATs.
[/ QUOTE ]
When it comes to FF, those differences are very important. A FF Defender taking Maneuvers comes quite close to the magic 45% defense. A Controller doesn't, and a Mastermind falls far short. And those last % matter; going from 45% to 40% defense doubles the damage you take. That's what I meant saying that the numbers for FF are all good; it is the utility of the secondary powers that are lackluster.
I built what is now my main FF Defender to try out the Psychic Blast set; as that is Defender only, I wanted a hands-off primary that could still contribute, but that would let me blast full tilt. And for that FF worked very well. With this toon I came into FF with the decision to skip half the powers. Secondary FF projects, both Defender, Controller, and Mastermind, have felt the set lacking. Buffing minions is just too much work. Combining Dispersion Bubble with control is not a bad idea, especially if you use Hot Feet or Arctic Air, but ultimately Sonic Resonance gives you more options and is less buff-bot-tastic. And making a Defender more focused on the primary, one that tried to use the whole set, became very frustrating. The "lesser" powers of FF are simply not very fun or useful.
From this I found that the best role for a FF is as a buff-bot/blaster Defender. And basically, that's all the set can do for me. Anything else FF can do, someone else can do better. That's the standpoint that I came from when I entered this thread. I want the set developed so that it can do more than one thing. I wanted the secondary choices to be useful and fun.
Now, FF is absolutely not a bad set - particularly not for Defenders. The three great powers are all excellent and can have great impact on any team that invites a defender. What the set is lacking is not power, but utility. There are many situations where we simply do not help or when playing a FF just isn't as much fun as some other role could be. Other players add to this by protesting the use of some of our powers; I guess we have all met Tanks that couldn't work along with Force Bubble.
This is my FF story, and from reading guides and the forums, it seems many share my basic experience of the set. The three great are good, the rest is so-so, and FF is a buff set.
Some of us here on this thread have a much more positive view of the secondary powers of the set, and are thus opposed to almost any type of change at all, only wanting to twiddle the numbers. That will never make the set play better - I say again, the numbers are GREAT. Add in some set bonuses to ranged defense, and you have the archetypal tankblaster the devs so dread. Twiddling with the numbers can only make the set worse. Making FF stand on its own two feet requires changing some powers. The question is which powers and how to change them.
[ QUOTE ]
When it comes to FF, those differences are very important.
[/ QUOTE ]
Understood. My comment was basically saying that while there are differences in FF between the ATs they are a question of degree. The idea that this thread is for discussing the merits of, say, adding a Stun to Force Bolt for Defenders only and anyone who plays FF from any other AT should just go away is just silly. If changes like that are made, all ATs will be affected.
[ QUOTE ]
I guess we have all met Tanks that couldn't work along with Force Bubble.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. In fact, I'm one of those Tankers. I have a 50 Ice/Axe/Artic Tanker that doesn't like FFers who think Force Bubble is an "always on" power. Tankers want baddies in their auras to help maintain aggro and do damage. SS and WP Tanks basically _need_ guys around them to survive.
But that doesn't make Force Bubble a bad power. In fact, it's pretty darn useful. None of my Mind/FF toons have Total Domination, but there's no way I'd ever drop Force Bubble.
[ QUOTE ]
The "lesser" powers of FF are simply not very fun or useful.
[/ QUOTE ]
They're not straight forward like, say, Total Domination is. They don't follow the usual "click a baddie, click a power" way of working. In return you get powers that aren't limited to a single role, that allow for flexability, innovation, and actual skill in their use. In other words, they're interesting. They're engaging. And they can suprise us with what they can do. Granted, sometimes that suprise isn't pleasant, but we can learn from that and move on to the better suprises.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
I really like your videos, but I can't help but think your views are coloured a controller shade. They're your secondary, our primary. Go play your FF/* for a bit and come talk.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks. And yes, Control plays a big part in those videos, they're Controllers after all. But the things those two Controller can do, like tank Lusca or an AV, or herding, depend on Force Fields to work.
As to playing a FF/*, I did. And when I give my opinion on what it's short comings are, the secondary, I'm told to leave. This thread is only for talking about useless ideas like adding -Speed to Force Bubble to Defenders only. We can't mention obvious facts like combining one of Force Fields big strengths, herding, with one of Defenders big strengths, nukes, will get you killed. Nor can we mention that some Defender's secondary blasts are so poorly designed that using powers from your FF primary effective nullifies those secondary blasts.
We can only talk about rediculous ideas like adding -Speed to a power that already slows down baddies and adding a chance to Stun to Force Bolt to "help out more in AV fights".
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When it comes to FF, those differences are very important.
[/ QUOTE ]
Understood...
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not in opposition to what you said, I merely spun on and extended on the thoughts you expressed.
And yes, any change to Defender FF will have to work for Mastermind and Controller FF as well.
For example, if we combine Force Bubble and Repulsion Field to create an empty power slot, then fill that with a power giving +damage, that would probably work for Defenders, but we must also consider how it would affect Masterminds and Controllers. For Controllers, it is a power issue, but can probably work as long as it has a decent End cost - power at a cost. For a Mastermind, it basically duplicates and extends on what they already have in Supremacy, so it really shouldn't be a problem - but isn't too exiting either.
But I don't think the discussion here is ready to go into specific power suggestions yet. I think we still need some form of consensus on what the issues are before we are ready to go into specific solutions.
Do not. Ever. Under any circumstances. Mess with my Force Bubble. 
I think it would be kewl to make some tweaks to the Repulsion Bomb and Repulsion Field powers. I have never used them in almost 2 years of owning a Bots/FF MM, because they both sounded crappy and this was confirmed when I saw the powers used by Defenders.
I'd be happy with some experiments on Force Bolt too, but seriously you'll never hear the end of my wailing if any nerfs were applied to FB, DB or PFF. Especially since PFF was already messed up once. 
The Widow's Dark Hand - leader of Faux Pas
Champion Server
Tee Hee!
[ QUOTE ]
But I don't think the discussion here is ready to go into specific power suggestions yet.
[/ QUOTE ]
IMHO, until folks on the Defenders board can admit to themselves that the secondary doesn't work with the primary, you won't be ready.
There may be some sort of tweak to FF that can help Defenders in some small way, but until the basic issue that the blasts don't work with Knockback and herding doesn't work with Defenders' nukes is addressed, a Force Field Defender will remain primarily best suited to being a buff-bot. Those are the only powers an FF Defender has that don't interfere with their blasts.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
Wait? Who's protecting the team while you're hiding in your bubble? None of your powers help your teammates (Leadership, Dispersion bubble, etc) when you're in the PFF.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, when you have ALL the aggro in the room... YOU'RE protecting the team. When the aggro "peels" off of you, you turn off the PFF.
[ QUOTE ]
Repulsion bomb doesn't always toss people, in fact the ones a Defender would need tossed for his own safety are the exact ones that almost never get tossed. They get slightly pushed back, but not before they can attack.
Also you ahve to stand still and wait for a pulse to register before they "fly back" IF the go back at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you talking about Repulsion Bomb here or Repulsion Field? I'm confused because Repulsion Bomb doesn't "pulse".
[ QUOTE ]
Almost NO player wants to be on a team where the bad guys are sporadically and randomly tossed all over the place.
[/ QUOTE ]
I definately agree to that, that's why I make sure to use KB as "crowd control", especially on AoE teams to knock the enemies all into the "big mass" for maxiumum AoE goodness.
[ QUOTE ]
The only thing that needs deflating is that ego.
You made a thread for FF suggestions, then brag about it getting stickied and a stupid title that no one would have noticed had you not mentioned it
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmmm:
[ QUOTE ]
I am nobody. I have NO authority, I do not work for NCSoft, never have, probably never will. I also have never had any personal relationship with any NCSoft employee and as far as I know, have never had ANY of my PMs responded to. The title under my name was given to me by a forum moderator. It MEANS nothing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I'm just FILLED with ego!
[ QUOTE ]
when people suggest changes you don't like, instead of explaining why, overall, those changes aren't good you just tell them they need to be playing how you play
[/ QUOTE ]
O RLY? -
[ QUOTE ]
I play in a very unusual manner that makes use of ALL the tools in my toolbelt to their full advantage. I DON'T expect everyone to play like me, I don't WANT everyone to play like me.
[/ QUOTE ]
And the only reasons I've "shut people's ideas down" are for two reasons, thematic reasons and "cottages". The thematic reasons I'm realizing slowly can be explained away, I'm backing off on those, the "cottages" I'm tossing out because the devs don't think that they are constructive. Here is the quote from Castle again:
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, it *is* a good policy -- it provides structure within which to do things. Without structure, there's chaos. How would you like it if tomorrow you logged in and, say, Build Up now built a small cottage at your chosen location, instead of adding to your damage? It's a silly example, admittedly, but it's to prevent such wholesale changes from happening. I *could* overturn it, in specific cases, if it were truly needed, but in the case being discussed here, it is not truly needed. There are MANY options that have been discussed that do not involve changing the core use of the power.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whenever I say "no cottages", that's what I'm referring to.
[ QUOTE ]
instead of explaining why, overall, those changes aren't good you just tell them they need to be playing how you play and to hell with their own preferences or playstyle.
[/ QUOTE ]
O RLY? -
[ QUOTE ]
Here is the essence and the source of this entire conversation. We are trying to make the set more "active" AND more attractive to the "average" player. I would have to say magicj (if you don't have me on ignore by now) that you and I are NOT the "average" player. We agree that with the simple effects that these powers provide it creates alot of "extra" effects in the meta-game. But most people don't, won't, or can't see that. What we need is more REAL effects so that the "average" player will see themselves making more of an obvious difference to their team's success. That is what will make the PRIMARY more flashy and attractive to more players. Right now all the other primaries are more flashy and are arguably more useful against AVs/GMs. We need to fix that somehow.
[/ QUOTE ]
Next.....
[ QUOTE ]
Odd thing happened, looking over my post I don't see me saying throw out the whole set. In fact I only stated a desire to see two of quite possibly the least used powers in FF (RB an RP) altered both in fairly minor and very VERY team friendly ways.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Repulsion Field- Garbage. Needs to be totally redesigned.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Repulsion Bomb- Garbage. Total Redesign/replacement.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Detention Field- Scrap it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, that's a THIRD of the powerset, 3 out of 9 that you want to "scrap". My mistake, I used hyperbole.
[ QUOTE ]
For instance name a FFer that doesn't have the holy Trinity of bubbles and still gets not only invited to teams but remains in them after telling them this fact...None.
[/ QUOTE ]
True, which is part of what this whole conversation is about. The other powers need to have such a use that the other teammates actually see a BENEFIT from them being used. See, some people are on one side (let's call it the bottomless pit) and they want to see the whole set redesigned from the ground up. And some other people like magicj are on the other side (let's call it Mt. Everest) and want to see NO change to the set whatsoever. I'm standing on the beach between the two asking for change, but controlled change over time. Something that will make the set more attractive, but not change it in a drastic way. It's an unenviable position because I get hit from both sides. That's life.
And what the heck is a Gilderoy?
[ QUOTE ]
And some other people like magicj are on the other side (let's call it Mt. Everest) and want to see NO change to the set whatsoever.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't deny there's a problem with FF Defenders. I played one. I deleted it.
What I want to see are changes made that will actually be effective. When I look at FF and Defenders' secondaries, blasting doesn't work with Knockback and herding doesn't work with Defenders' nukes. When you take away the Knockback powers and the herding powers from FF, all that you're left with is the buffs. And that's _why_ Defenders play their FFs like buff bots. The other powers don't make any sense to take for Defenders except in specialized circumstances.
Where you caught hell from me was when you told me to shut up for pointing out this obvious fact. But like it or not, until the problem with Knockback and Defenders blasts is solved, Defenders have little motivation to take their Knockback powers. In fact, there's lots of motivation not to take them. And changes like adding some sort of Debuff to the Knockback (which you can already do with IOs) won't change that fact.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
Where you caught hell from me was when you told me to shut up for pointing out this obvious fact.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please quote where I told you to "shut up", using those exact words.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Where you caught hell from me was when you told me to shut up for pointing out this obvious fact.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please quote where I told you to "shut up", using those exact words.
[/ QUOTE ]
You told me to leave the thread, which is exactly the same thing as telling me to shut up.
You're a smart guy PK and you clearly love FF. But yours isn't the only voice in this discussion. Nor will Defenders be the only AT affected by whatever changes come from this, if any.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
You told me to leave the thread, which is exactly the same thing as telling me to shut up.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Shut up" is an impolite demand. I ASKED you to leave a thread who's title is "Make Your FF Change Suggestions Here!" after you already said that you didn't want any changes, because at that point you weren't adding anything to the conversation. I never told you to do anything, I requested. Since then, I haven't requested again. A polite request is not the same as an impolite demand. CDN_Guardian gave you an impolite demand. I did not.
[ QUOTE ]
Nor will Defenders be the only AT affected by whatever changes come from this, if any.
[/ QUOTE ]
And how will any other AT be affected when we have specifically asked for any suggested changes to ONLY apply to the ForceFields Defender primary?
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I ASKED you to leave a thread who's title is "Make Your FF Change Suggestions Here!"
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It is not your place to make such requests. And to be quite frank, after seeing your suggestions on how to change FF, you need all the help you can get. Putting your hands over your ears and saying "I can't hear you" doesn't change the fact that FF Knockback doesn't work with Defender blasts and that FF herding doesn't work with Defender nukes. Nor does it change the fact that that's why folks don't take those FF powers.
And if you feel that Defenders will be the only ones affected by these changes, I have to disagree with you. Folks won't be happy with one set getting, say, -Speed in a power and other sets not getting it, even if the -Speed is pointless and probably counter-productive.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
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It is not your place to make such requests.
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Anyone can REQUEST anything from anyone, as long as we live in a free society. And the other person is free to not comply. There are no "places" here. I requested, you didn't comply, I let it go. So please stop saying that I "told" you to "shut up" when I didn't.
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And to be quite frank, after seeing your suggestions on how to change FF, you need all the help you can get. Putting your hands over your ears and saying "I can't hear you" doesn't change the fact that FF Knockback doesn't work with Defender blasts and that FF herding doesn't work with Defender nukes.
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You're right, we need all the help we can get, but I'm just asking for constructive criticism. And I made no reference at all to your comments about Defender blasts and nukes, I'm letting your comments stand on their own, I have nothing to say about them.
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And if you feel that Defenders will be the only ones affected by these changes, I have to disagree with you. Folks won't be happy with one set getting, say, -Speed in a power and other sets not getting it, even if the -Speed is pointless and probably counter-productive.
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Okay, I can see that. However there are already sets out there that ARE differentiated. I can't think of them right now, but if I did some digging I'm sure I could find them easily. I know that they are out there.
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Anyone can REQUEST anything from anyone, as long as we live in a free society.
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That's right. But it doesn't change basic manners.
And while we're on the topic, stop trying to deny me the right to express my opinion and we'll get along just fine.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
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I'm sorry, that's a THIRD of the powerset, 3 out of 9 that you want to "scrap".
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Also the absolute most talked about and probably least used/most hated in the set. Plus, I not only said that but then I offered ideas on how to change the current incarnations to make them unique, utilitarian, and otherwise handy in multiple situations/playstyles without totally ruining the way they're currently played. You noticed I shouted a few attention grabbers, apparently they were good enough to keep you from actually reading the other third of my post explaining my thoughts on each. In fact most of my ideas are darn similar to the ones YOU mentioned earlier in the thread before you started telling people to essentially "refer to my guide so you can play as awesomely with crappy powers as I do!"
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The other powers need to have such a use that the other teammates actually see a BENEFIT from them being used.
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And you immediately bashed me saying I wanted City of Powerhelm after, again, suggestions not terribly far removed from your own on page 1. And you bashed almost EVERY other poster for absolutely no reason. The Devs we have here are smart guys. Castle is a great Dev! He also knows how to read an reason. If he hears an idea that's too outlandish he will say no.
BUT he might hear one of those and go "Gee that's a little far but certain aspects DO have merit" and it could lead to an amazing fix. All your berating and bashing does is deter people who might have an idea that leads to great changes from even posting.
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And some other people like magicj are on the other side (let's call it Mt. Everest) and want to see NO change to the set whatsoever. I'm standing on the beach between the two asking for change, but controlled change over time.
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Um...so you teleported from the crest of Everest to the beach in less than one paragraph. Congrats must be slotted for range.
I'm asking for mainly 3 powers to have changes...making Detention Field a toggle or an actual FIELD possibly with a shorter duration or even making it just a little less annoying with the hit to enemy ACC and ability to hit them back with it on (as a clickie) aren't unreasonable or at all drastic and are entirely in the spirit (I thought) of this thread. They're reasonable ideas that help every playstyle and give the set one more utility power.
Same with Repulsion Field...a bigger static KB instead of pulses thats more effective would be great. The one problem with FF currently is it's a literally hit or miss KB set. And it's main perk being KB shouldn't be quite as hit or miss. The KB should be more reliable. In fact the only people that should be able to KB/KD an even level Warwolf (or even a +1 or +2) should be a Defender with Force Bolt or Repulsion.
You also never addressed way back in my first post, the ineffectiveness of Force bubble as a crowd control device aside from initially pushing them into a corner before they start sliding around the bubble between it an the wall inexplicably. If it can't actually block off a small corridor in that "You shall not pass" way then it should be smaller as to be useful more often aside from massive rooms where you have the room to use it and "only" aggro half the room instead of all the room.
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When I look at FF and Defenders' secondaries, blasting doesn't work with Knockback and herding doesn't work with Defenders' nukes.
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As someone mentioned earlier KB rarely if ever, stacks...I hit em and by some miracle they KB with my blast, then I Bolt 'em and try to KB them again, unless they're standing and already firing another attack KB won't work, they won't stay down longer (oddly enough Air Superiority DOES do this because it's a KD I guess) Perhaps every FF power needs to not only register as KB but KD as well...I don't know if they do at the moment...
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Nor will Defenders be the only AT affected by whatever changes come from this, if any.
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THAT is where I disagree. Defenders CAN and SHOULD be the only ones affected by this change. We already know that they can change the effectiveness of powers based on the AT and they should continue to tweak ALL the powers to have unique flavor for the given AT...
FF is perfect for trollers as they are. magicj's videos show that. Same for MM's whose main powers are their minions...
But for defenders who it's either bubble or blast...there just needs to be more utility and more power therein. As primaries go ours is the least useful overall, day-to-day, in the game.
Defenders, for whom FF is the PRIMARY, would or at least SHOULD be the only ones that get any added bonuses.
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There may be some sort of tweak to FF that can help Defenders in some small way, but until the basic issue that the blasts don't work with Knockback and herding doesn't work with Defenders' nukes is addressed, a Force Field Defender will remain primarily best suited to being a buff-bot. Those are the only powers an FF Defender has that don't interfere with their blasts.
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For the record my main is an FF/Energy...so even my blasts interfere with my blasts...
And Dr. Phil...er...Professor Lockhart please google "Gilderoy Lockhart" and read up on your new namesake.
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* a brief history lesson, for anyone who bothers to read what I write. FF had 3 single target bubbles on 2 minute timers in Beta. I.e., it was pretty much impossible to keep a full team buffed. The game plan seems to have been, "Buff whoever needs it, and watch out for who's taking what kind of damage. From 18 to 32, evolve away from buffing into keeping mobs out of melee for squishies and onto rooted tankers." As Empathy moves from healing to more general purpose buffing, so to would FF evolve from buffing to throwing. That ... didn't work out.
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I wasn't specifically in beta, but unless this was explicitly stated during beta, I don't think that was the intent. It appeared, based on the discussion surrounding the time when the two ally bubbles were bumped to 4 minutes that the original intent appeared to be, as so many things were in the original conception for the game, that the bubbles were supposed to cost "just enough" in time and endurance to make you think about whether to apply them or not, rather than to monotonously perma them, so that the bubbles presented an actual tactical decision. It took the devs a while to realize that a sizeable percentage of the player population (right or wrong) didn't want or believe in "tactical options." They believed if you had it, you were supposed to always use it. That if you had it, and didn't use it, and something went wrong because of that, it would be extremely frustrating for some players. Basically, their playerbase would be very quickly addicted to power: if a player got a taste of it, they would never accept not having it all the time.
Ironically, when they did bump the bubbles to four minutes, I predicted that within a year, some FF defenders would be complaining that the set was boring because once you deployed the bubbles, there was nothing to do. I was wrong: it took less than six months.
One thing I find interesting about the psychology of the game (and MMOs in general) is that MMO designers tend to think of their creation as a game, and design it as if it was a set of interlocking mini-games. Games have challenges, and hurdles, and points, and rewards.
But a lot of players don't see CoH (or any other MMO) as a game. They see it as something closer to a marathon. XP isn't points, XP is progress. There's a goal, and its the finish line. And what they want is a straight, clear, level path to it that they can run at their own pace. They do not want an obstacle course, or a day of Ninja Warrior. They just want to jog straight ahead, maybe with some friends, make it to the next checkpoint, and then quit for the day. They do not want to dodge a bunch of swinging sandbags while doing it. That's why they want their characters to perform at a particular, predictable level, every day, every hour, and every minute, until its time to move to the next level.
I *don't*, in general, play that way, which is why I find the perspective interesting.
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Interesting points indeed, and I can agree with virtually all of them. Every now and again I'l run into a FF defender or troller that, despite having the two teammate bubbles, simply won't use them. When I asked one of these guys why he wasn't bubbling us even though he had the powers, he basically told me it was too much work keeping everyone bubbled every 4 minutes.
So basically he turned on Dispersion Bubble, maybe thru bubbles on the melee toons if he felt like it, and that was it.
Now this has only happened twice in 3+ years, but it does serve to underscore the inherent core problems with the set.