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1) Changing the Defender Secondaries does nothing to address the Force Field Primary. While FF characters would benefit, so would every other Defender Primary which does not solve the subject of this discussion.
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I understand where you're coming from with this, but I disagree.
If I herd with my Mind/FF and then "nuke" them with Mass Confusion, I'm not risking life and limb. Ditto for herding with a Bots/FF.
But if I herd with a FF Defender and nuke them, it's very close to a death sentence. Defender nukes don't kill anything _and_ leave you drained of Endurance. You're a sitting duck that's just herded several groups of baddies to your location.
Popping blues isn't really a fix for that because it's not something you can do over and over. You run out of blues.
Ditto with things like the "huge scatter" of Repulsion Bomb. That scatter is barely noticable to Controllers and Masterminds. It stands out like a sore thumb to Defenders because of how their cones behave.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
FF is a big ol' pile of bad design decisions going back to, I'm guessing, "the guy before Geko."
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I wouldn't say that. But I WOULD say FF's concepts all too often ran afoul of in game implementation.
I mean, how do you implement a dome that you put over your team to shield them? Is it a wall to keep out attackers, or a prison to keep them in? Can it be fired through, or does it just keep bodies out? How do you choose where to place it, and does it divide those "inside" from those "outside"?
Some of the Force Field concepts were pretty good ones, but they might have worked better in a tabletop environment, where you're not so limited to variables and graphics.
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You're avoiding the question by trying to restrict the comparison to Force Field, though. I am comparing a Force Fielder that herds to ANOTHER DEFENDER. Like a Dark or a Rad.
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Ok. To me the question was can an FFer buff their damage. My answer was yes, especially solo, by herding. I don't think that a Dark or Rad herding is as effective as an FF herding.
Now, can an FFer directly buff damage? No. They're not supposed to. They trade away that ability for stong Defense.
For folks not happy with that trade-off, Storm offers many of the capabilities of FF, but with buffs, debuffs, and extra damage.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
<QR>
A Force Fielder DOES have a place on a nigh immortal Invincible team.
The Force Fielders job is to use Knockback and Repel powers to condense mobs for more efficient AoEing, while maintaining Dispersion Bubble on any squishy teammates.
Defenders have exactly TWO sets with good mob placement options: Storm Summoning and Force Fields.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Bubblers Suck! It doesn't matter WHAT you do to them.... They'll always blow.
>.>
...nevermind that mine can solo a L20 SF in like 35 minutes... /em smoke-flash
EDIT: Seriously tho... They're *okay* at 22 or so. But they really do start to lag behind again immediately Before then, and After too. And the whole reason is that KnockBack Fields just AREN'T practical and Force-Bubble comes way too late to be useful for a majority of the character's career. The Bubbler is basically Helpless if they want to do something more active to contribute to the team's DPS or survival against multiple foes. It's the same reason everyone respec'd out of Whirlwind in issue-6 or whenever it was changed. Proposal: Instead of making KB-fields do INSTANT knockback.. make them do a Pure Melee +DEF buff like Invincible does, or a Melee-only -ToHit Debuff /w a random chance of KnockBack similar to Hurricane. ( ...that way, they can be slotted with -KB AND -ToHit procs to contribute more DPS to the Team) without scattering melee mobs to the 4 corners of every room, or affecting mobs that attack /w Ranged.
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1) Changing the Defender Secondaries does nothing to address the Force Field Primary. While FF characters would benefit, so would every other Defender Primary which does not solve the subject of this discussion.
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I understand where you're coming from with this, but I disagree.
If I herd with my Mind/FF and then "nuke" them with Mass Confusion, I'm not risking life and limb. Ditto for herding with a Bots/FF.
But if I herd with a FF Defender and nuke them, it's very close to a death sentance. Defender nukes don't kill anything _and_ leave you drained of Endurance. You're a sitting duck that's just herded several groups of baddies to your location.
Popping blues isn't really a fix for that because it's not something you can do over and over. You run out of blues.
Ditto with things like the "huge scatter" of Repulsion Bomb. That scatter is barely noticable to Controllers and Masterminds. It stands out like a sore thumb to Defenders because of how their cones behave.
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You missed my point. Boosting ALL Defender Secondaries is a boost to ALL Defenders, not just Force Field Defenders. The performance discrepencies between the FF Primary and the other Defender Primaries would be unchanged. Thus it doesn't address the subject of this thread which is [u]improving the FF Primary[u].
If you wish to discuss buffing all the Defender Secondaries, that's cool. But start a thread for that instead of polluting this one.
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You missed my point. Boosting ALL Defender Secondaries is a boost to ALL Defenders, not just Force Field Defenders. The performance discrepencies between the FF Primary and the other Defender Primaries would be unchanged. Thus it doesn't address the subject of this thread which is improving the FF Primary.
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I understand your point. I simply disagree with it. Because it's unsafe to use a nuke after herding, the abilities of a FF Defender are greatly reduced. Because of the tiny scatter of Repulsion Bomb, the effectiveness of Defenders' blasts is greatly reduced. Ditto for Repulsion Field.
The strength of FF at herding is one of the better reasons to take the set. But that strength is effectively nullified by the behavior of the Defenders' nuke.
Repulsion Bomb is a fine control. There are very few AoE boss controls in the game. And there are none that I can think of that stop multiple bosses from attacking and recharge as fast as RB. Yet the effectiveness of this power is greatly reduced for Defenders because of the small cones some of their better attacks have.
Again, Force Fields works great in every AT except Defenders. It's probably not short comings in FF that are the reason for that.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Given this.
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Ok. To me the question was can an FFer buff their damage. My answer was yes, especially solo, by herding. I don't think that a Dark or Rad herding is as effective as an FF herding.
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And this.
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Now, can an FFer directly buff damage? No. They're not supposed to. They trade away that ability for stong Defense.
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Are you not contradicting yourself? In the first you say a FF defender can buff their damage and in the second you say they can't.
Now maybe I'm being dense but I really don't get the point you're making. Yes, herding allows a FF defender to effect more targets but its certainly doesn't increase her damage. If it still takes me 4 attacks to defeat a minion that hasn't changed whether I've got one minion in front of me or 20. I'm still dealing the same amount of damage.
Synergy Lvl 50 Def FF/Electric/Psy - Protector
Cimarron - Protector Mascot
My DA Page
If you hit 5 guys at once, you are doing 5 times as much damage as you would be hitting one guy at a time with the same attack.
Thus, bubble herding "buffs" damage output.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
[ QUOTE ]
Now, can an FFer directly buff damage? No. They're not supposed to. They trade away that ability for stong Defense.
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Which was exactly my point. A Tanker trades away some of his ability to deal damage for strong Defense. This doesn't mean that he kills faster than a Scrapper, whether he herds or not. He may be able to kill JUST AS WELL as a Scrapper, taking longer to do it, but he doesn't do more damage just because he herds.
Now, if that's what Force Field was, the Tanker of the Defender Primaries, then I would be happy with that. The problem is that it is NOT. *DARK* is the Tanker of the Defender Primaries, and I have FAR more personal damage mitigation with a Dark than I have with a Force Field. I KNOW that to be the case, because I have soloed both. The defense from Dispersion Bubble alone, the knockback and Detention Field do NOT give me more protection than Darkest Night, Twilight Grasp, and the fear powers.
And I can stand there and fire my sniper attacks on my Dark. I can herd. Anything I can do, solo, with my FF, I can do with my Dark. And be better protected doing it.
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For folks not happy with that trade-off, Storm offers many of the capabilities of FF, but with buffs, debuffs, and extra damage.
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Storm doesn't offer anywhere near the protection of FF. It doesn't offer anywhere near the protection of Dark. And even if I DID accept your suggestion and decide that Storm was what I wanted to play after all, don't you think there should be some reason to play Force Field? I mean, for someone other than a Controller or Mastermind, anyway.
There's other Defenders that can Herd a *lot* better than a Bubbler can... what's your point?
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If you hit 5 guys at once, you are doing 5 times as much damage as you would be hitting one guy at a time with the same attack.
Thus, bubble herding "buffs" damage output.
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Correct.
Similarly, Force bubble provides -Speed -Damage, and -Recharge capabilities even though it applies none of those debuffs. It gets them through changes in baddie behavior.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
Well, if your usual spawn has 3 baddies in it and you can herd that up to 9, it's a +200% increase in the damage your going to do using your powers. That's a pretty nice increase from a set that isn't supposed to be able to increase your damage.
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Your point is ridiculous. Any character in this game can gather a herd using toggles, PBAoEs or even just body pulling. That isn't an increase in damage; you are just doing the same amount damage to more targets than if you used your AoE's on single targets. That DOES NOT equal an increase in damage.
Seriously, you are trying to say that FF can increase your damage output because it's easy to herd with? That is one of the dumbest things I've ever read on these forums. To iterate, an increase in damage is doing more damage per target; it is NOT doing the same damge to more targets.
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Well, from what I've seen, it's the way FF is often played. Bubble players, turn on Dispersion Bubble, done. When you play that way, the only thing left to do is blast. And the blasts are wanting, IMHO.
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And what about sets that can actually add to our damage through +damage or -resistance effects? How do you consider them? Rad and Dark can both easily toggle herd, and both have -resistance powers, so according to you are they +damage squared?
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Darks and Rads are no where near as good at herding as an FF.
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Herding is herding, regardless of how easy it is, and in this game, it's all pretty easy. Toggling Rad infection on the rearmost enemy and running around a corner is hardly difficult. So what's your point? FF is fine because you find it the easiest to herd with?
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There's other Defenders that can Herd a *lot* better than a Bubbler can... what's your point?
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I was responding to the poster who didn't understand how herding increases damage output.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
[ QUOTE ]
If you hit 5 guys at once, you are doing 5 times as much damage as you would be hitting one guy at a time with the same attack.
Thus, bubble herding "buffs" damage output.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but at in increase risk of being killed, plus additional time gathering up the herd. Plus, just about any AT with any defenses at all can do that. It's not something Force Fielders can magically do that no one else can. It takes additional effort for very little benefit over what another Defender can achieve doing the same thing.
And one thing I do NOT want is Force Field to have to be stuck into some role like "herding" or "forcing foes against walls" in order to be useful. That encourages people to select FF for teams ONLY for those purposes.
[ QUOTE ]
If you hit 5 guys at once, you are doing 5 times as much damage as you would be hitting one guy at a time with the same attack.
Thus, bubble herding "buffs" damage output.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dumbest. Argument. EVER.
That is NOT a buff to damage; you are doing the same damage per target that you were doing before.
[ QUOTE ]
There's other Defenders that can Herd a *lot* better than a Bubbler can... what's your point?
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Can they?
Storm can grab aggro as quickly, but can't protect themselves as well as FF while waiting for the herd to gather.
Toggle herding with Rad or Dark can be done, but it's slow. And, again, they can't protect themselves as well as FF while waiting for the herd.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
Because it's unsafe to use a nuke after herding, the abilities of a FF Defender are greatly reduced. Because of the tiny scatter of Repulsion Bomb, the effectiveness of Defenders' blasts is greatly reduced. Ditto for Repulsion Field.
The strength of FF at herding is one of the better reasons to take the set. But that strength is effectively nullified by the behavior of the Defenders' nuke.
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Wait a minute. Aren't you effectively contradicting YOUR OWN ARGUMENT? You were just saying that a Force Fielder is the equal of any other Defender, because he could buff his damage by herding. Yet here you clearly state that a Force Fielder CAN'T herd because to do so would expose him to too much risk, and result in defeat and debt.
So which is it? Does FF need a damage boost, because it needs one to compete with the sets that have one, or does it NOT need it, because it can herd?
[ QUOTE ]
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There's other Defenders that can Herd a *lot* better than a Bubbler can... what's your point?
[/ QUOTE ]
I was responding to the poster who didn't understand how herding increases damage output.
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I guess if you want to look at TOTAL DAMAGE done I guess one could argue that herding and AOE's allow you to do that. Fair enough. I still think your playing a semantics game in terms of damage buffing though, but I guess I look at what a damage buff is differently.
Synergy Lvl 50 Def FF/Electric/Psy - Protector
Cimarron - Protector Mascot
My DA Page
[ QUOTE ]
Again, Force Fields works great in every AT except Defenders. It's probably not short comings in FF that are the reason for that.
[/ QUOTE ]
And you still don't get it, or simply refuse to. The only person speaking about other archtypes is you. The only person talking about Defender secondaries is you.
The rest of us are discussing the Defender Primary of Force Fields. If you don't think it needs to be changed, then simply say so and move on.
Look, I didn't make the argument to begin with, I was just explaining it to someone who didn't see the benefit to begin with.
While you're not the Rudest. Poster. Ever. you are being unnecessarily rude to me.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
[ QUOTE ]
Wait a minute. Aren't you effectively contradicting YOUR OWN ARGUMENT? You were just saying that a Force Fielder is the equal of any other Defender, because he could buff his damage by herding. Yet here you clearly state that a Force Fielder CAN'T herd because to do so would expose him to too much risk, and result in defeat and debt.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, what I said was an FF Defender can increase the damage from their powers by herding.
I also said that herding for an FF Defender isn't anywhere near as safe as herding for a FFer with a different set. This is because of the way Defender's nukes work, not because of how their FF powers work.
So no, it doesn't contradict my point. It _is_ my point. The performance of Defender's secondaries put the FF Defender at a disadvantage as compared to other FFers.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
Again, Force Fields works great in every AT except Defenders. It's probably not short comings in FF that are the reason for that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, you morons have made your point; you think FF is fine and it's the Defender secondaries that are responsible for all the shortcomings some of us feel are in the set.
Yay for you, you got your point across by say it over, and over, and over.....
Now piss off so the rest of us can discuss what we would like to see changed. I'll be sure to put on the bottom of all of my posts:
"This post is not endorsed by Magicj; the FF status-quo protector"
Actually, I think I'll put you on ignore and put that on all my posts in this thread.
Now go away so this discussion can actually continue.
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There's other Defenders that can Herd a *lot* better than a Bubbler can... what's your point?
[/ QUOTE ]
I was responding to the poster who didn't understand how herding increases damage output.
[/ QUOTE ]
I guess if you want to look at TOTAL DAMAGE done I guess one could argue that herding and AOE's allow you to do that. Fair enough. I still think your playing a semantics game in terms of damage buffing though, but I guess I look at what a damage buff is differently.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, yes, I don't disagree with this at all. And I never would have referred to herding as a way of "buffing damage", I was just using the language of the person to whom you originally responded.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
[ QUOTE ]
YMMV, of course. But I have a 50 Dark/Dark and have played rad to the mid 30s, so I'm at least basing this on experience.
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Your experience is no more and no less valid than mine, PhiloticKnight's, BurningChick's, or anyone else who has played FF. Veiled insults are not valid argument points.
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You might as well say that Tankers can kill faster than Scrappers
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I'd say no. This is comparing apples and oranges. Different ATs. In some cases different attacks. Different damage scales.
Comparing an FF who herds to one that doesn't is a direct comparison. Apples to apples.
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Okay, "You might as well say that a Tanker that herds kills faster than a Tanker that doesn't." Is that a close enough comparison, or "You might as well say that an Invulnerability Tanker that herds kills faster than a Tanker that doesn't"?
You're avoiding the question by trying to restrict the comparison to Force Field, though. I am comparing a Force Fielder that herds to ANOTHER DEFENDER. Like a Dark or a Rad. Because that's the form of our comparison. We are comparing the damage that a FF can do without damage boosts to the damage a Dark or Rad can with such a boost.