[ QUOTE ]
+Remove the "Can't Affect Others" so Dispersion can affect everyone.
[/ QUOTE ]
Storm already has this with Steamy Mists/O2 Boost
[ QUOTE ]
+If player attacks, defense suppresses from whatever it is to 3% for 15 seconds (which is a lot in current combat time).
[/ QUOTE ]
Steamy Mists
[ QUOTE ]
Repulsion Bomb should work more like Bonfire
[/ QUOTE ]
The power would do _less_ than it does now. If I want the Knockback in one spot, I can stand there. But there would be no way to do chaos control with a stationary Knockback drop.
And, again, Storm has a stationary Knockdown power.
[ QUOTE ]
Let me echo again my proposal for switching the numbers in Dispersion and the targetted bubbles, which other people have brought up earlier in the thread. I can't think of an easier change to make, it's just switching values, yet the effect on the set would be dramatic.
[/ QUOTE ]
The change would make herding easier. I don't pretend to speak for the Devs, but I don't see them doing it.
[ QUOTE ]
I like the idea of the bomb becoming a placeable knockdown pet.
[/ QUOTE ]
Storm. Again.
[ QUOTE ]
Keep Repulsion Field for the PBAoE foe knockback power and let Force Bubble give us something to help boost team damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Storm has plenty of powers to increase team damage.
Honestly, just play a Storm Defender. It has what many of the folks here are looking for.
Again I ask the Devs to leave FF alone. The set is not broken.
Edit:
To the folks who are saying the Detention Field doesn't work on AVs, could you give a list of AVs that true for. Because I've been caging AVs right and left lately. You can see an example of it in the video in my sig, which was made just a few days ago.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Steamy Mist does not suppress. Neither does Shadow Fall. Nor Cloak of Darkness in Dark Armor.
In each case, the defense potion is just a few percent, less than Dispersion Bubble.
[ QUOTE ]
Make Repulsion Bomb target a location rather than an enemy or teammate. This gives the defender the ability to control the direction of the knockback.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry to quote myself, but I forgot to say: This should apply to ALL "Targeted AoE" (ranged sphere) knockbacks. Repulsion Bomb, Explosive Blast, M30 Grenade, etc.
Let me say that I think there's a huge difference between a FF defender and FF controller. Every hero is defined by his primary powerset. A /FF controller is simply gaining team-friendly powers from his secondary, the same as any other secondary...and the fact that they don't include any offensive powers is of lesser importance because a controller exists to provide control first and team support second. A FF defender, on the other hand, is a one-trick pony, and it's too easy for that trick to become useless to the team.
Imagine a team that can complete missions without suffering deaths on Invincible. I see them from level 22 onwards, so it shouldn't be too hard to conceptualize. Now present an argument for why that team should consider a FF defender equal in worth to ANY OTHER HERO THAT CAN BE BUILT.
Thanks.
~Gabriel
The entire game is desgined around the idea that you never "need" any specific type of character to complete an objective. Now, alot of players THINK they NEED a specific type of character to complete certain missions or TFs, but the truth is that it is fallacious thinking to say that one set is "less" than another set because no team "needs" them. That's just simply not true. Give me a challenge, a specific challenge to try to prove that you "need" this type of hero or that type of hero for a specific objective, and in less than three months I will prove you wrong. There is always another way.
All heroes are equal in worth when no single type of hero is "needed".
[ QUOTE ]
The entire game is desgined around the idea that you never "need" any specific type of character to complete an objective. Now, alot of players THINK they NEED a specific type of character to complete certain missions or TFs, but the truth is that it is fallacious thinking to say that one set is "less" than another set because no team "needs" them. That's just simply not true. Give me a challenge, a specific challenge to try to prove that you "need" this type of hero or that type of hero for a specific objective, and in less than three months I will prove you wrong. There is always another way.
All heroes are equal in worth when no single type of hero is "needed".
[/ QUOTE ]
You need to reread the post you're responding to. I didn't say anything about need. I asked about usefulness.
~Gabriel
[ QUOTE ]
Now present an argument for why that team should consider a FF defender equal in worth to ANY OTHER HERO THAT CAN BE BUILT.
[/ QUOTE ]
When no heroes are "needed", then all heroes are equal in value and use over not HAVING another hero on the team.
[ QUOTE ]
When no heroes are "needed", then all heroes are equal in value and use over not HAVING another hero on the team.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, dude, that's missing the point. Once a team has reached the immortality line (i.e. are in no real danger while defeating mobs), protection no longer has any value. There are a lot of forms of protection in the game, and all of them become useless once the team isn't in danger. That's just common sense. You don't need more when you have enough.
But! What you can never have enough of is speed. Damage, +dam, -res, whatever. Even making sure everybody has enough endurance improves the speed at which the team completes missions.
My point is that FF brings nothing to a team that isn't worried about dying. Those teams are super common in the later levels, and they have no reason to want a FF defender. Now, just about every other type of hero is still desireable. A scrapper or blaster brings raw damage. Any non-FF defender brings damage multipliers or buffs. A controller brings grouping and placement abilities, and most of the time has speed-influencing buffs and debuffs. That leaves tanks and FF defenders. Tanks, of course, do a lot more damage than FF defenders...
I hope that makes more sense.
~Gabriel
Okay, I see your point now, and I'll agree. After a team's reached the "immortality line" there's not much more an FFer can do for them. But you know what? I'm fine with that. If they want to invite me anyways just to have another body on the team blasting away, I'm fine with that. If I'm only invited to teams that do NEED the extra mitigation I can provide, I'm fine with that too. You know how to fix that problem?
Form your own teams.
oooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooo!
Lookie what I found 
.
So I guess that's confirmation that this thread is useful/wanted after all. Maybe if we're lucky we can even get a sticky. 
[ QUOTE ]
A FF defender, on the other hand, is a one-trick pony, and it's too easy for that trick to become useless to the team.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd ask you to consider the idea than when FF works well when paired with everything _except_ a Defender's secondary, the problem is probably _not_ FF.
The Defender's secondary needs a buff. It doesn't offer anything I can't get in better form from other ATs that have FF.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
I'd ask you to consider the idea than when FF works well when paired with everything _except_ a Defender's secondary, the problem is probably _not_ FF.
The Defender's secondary needs a buff. It doesn't offer anything I can't get in better form from other ATs that have FF.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh God, piss off. Is this going to turn into another Controller > Defender rant from you? Go troll somewhere else. Really, go away.
We are obviously having a discussion about FF DEFENDERS.
[ QUOTE ]
The Defender's secondary needs a buff. It doesn't offer anything I can't get in better form from other ATs that have FF.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gee, what are you getting at here? FF is only available to Defenders and Controllers hero side, so you must mean there is no point to bringing a FF Defender? You made your obtuse opinion well known in the thread regarding a "Controller's weaker cousin". If you mean to turn this into another discussion of how much better you think Controllers are than Defenders then I will iterate:
Piss off. The rest of us want to continue discussing the FF set without having to beat our head against the brick wall that is your ignorance of Defenders.
[ QUOTE ]
Issues
* Two-Trick Pony - Knockback and defense is not enough
* Lack of offensive boosting
Powers in Doubt
* Force Bomb - most agree its useless in its current form
* Repulsion Field / Force Bubble - Redundant in effect (I know PhiloticKnight doesn't agree, but most everyone else does)
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry to quote myself, but could we try to focus the discussion a bit? It now seems to be a number of people's crazy dreams, continuously shot down by PhiloticKnight. That is not a discussion, it is a carnie show.
Can we come back to establishing the base lines here; what we need, and what we are willing to have changed to meet those needs? What to change INTO is really a later question.
[ QUOTE ]
* Lack of offensive boosting
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see this as a problem. It is a part of the set's whole "theme". But that's my personal opinion.
[ QUOTE ]
* Force Bomb - most agree its useless in its current form
[/ QUOTE ]
First, it's Repulsion Bomb, not Force Bomb, and second, it's not USELESS, it's job is just usually better done by other powers in the set most of the time. Would I be willing to throw the power out and replace it with another one? Yes, that is the ONLY power that I would accept losing. But that's just because it's the weakest power, not useless.
Everything else looks good so far.
[ QUOTE ]
Oh God, piss off.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whoah there buddy, I commend your passion, but lets be civil please. Let's keep the personal insults and attacks to, not a minimum, but to a ZERO point.
Let's just debate IDEAS here, not each other. And remember an attack against your idea isn't an attack against you. Just attack back with another idea that's equally persuasive.
[ QUOTE ]
You made your obtuse opinion well known in the thread regarding a "Controller's weaker cousin". If you mean to turn this into another discussion of how much better you think Controllers are than Defenders then I will iterate:
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, it's not just Controllers. At the same time I was playing my FF/Dark Defender, I was playing a Bots/FF Mastermind. There's really no comparison between the two, and the Defender falls short.
An FF Defender isn't _bad_. You can bubble and herd and tank and do chaos control with it just like you can with FF in any other set. But, having played FF in several ATs, I'm not seeing any real reason to play one as a Defender. And the reason for that is _not_ the FF primary, which is stronger for Defenders than any other AT.
And this is absolutely related to the topic of this thread. "Fixing FF" is non-problem. FF is a fantastic set. The reason the set seems so "meh" for Defenders, IMHO, is that the common FF playstyle leaves you plenty of time for you to use the secondary. And it's the secondary that's "meh".
You can do things to make a FF Defender interesting by taking Provoke and Medicine and playing agressively. But you can do that with any AT that has FF as an option.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Are you opposed to the differentiation of the same powerset among ATs magicj? I mean, do you want the powers to all be identical for all archetypes, except the numbers? If so, then I don't think that we will agree on much here. If you're willing to accept power differentiation between archetypes for the same powerset, then it would allow us to be more "active" with our primaries than we are now. Right now the set is unfortunately seen as a "fire and forget" set, which is why most people SEE it as a better secondary than primary. I disagree with this but would like to see the primary set "mixed up" a little to allow some more DIFFERENCE between the ATs to take effect. This will make comparisons less and less and I think be better for the community as a whole.
No one should feel "second-rate" because of their power picks.
[ QUOTE ]
Are you opposed to the differentiation of the same powerset among ATs magicj?
[/ QUOTE ]
Depends. There shouldn't be major differences in powers sets between ATs. If Force Bolt has a Stun as a Defender, it should have a Stun as a Controller.
There _are_differences already in ATs for FF. Controller bubbles are weaker than Defenders, MasterMinds can't get PFF till (I think) level 18, etc. But in all cases I know of the differences basically amount to minor nerfs to the set for all non-Defender ATs.
Anyway, the talk of changes to either FF or Defenders secondaries aside, FF can be played very well as a "lazy man's" set. For folks who want a little more action, FF offers a very good foundation for playing that way as well. I'd personally recommend learning how to use the set for chaos control and tanking.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
I mean, do you want the powers to all be identical for all archetypes, except the numbers?
[/ QUOTE ]
So then you're basically saying yes to this, which means we probably won't agree to anything. We don't want to touch your precious Controllers. Please move along and let us have our fun. 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I mean, do you want the powers to all be identical for all archetypes, except the numbers?
[/ QUOTE ]
So then you're basically saying yes to this, which means we probably won't agree to anything. We don't want to touch your precious Controllers. Please move along and let us have our fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
Who are you quoting and why are you telling me to shut up?
No offense PK, but you're ideas about FF have stood out on this thread as the dumbest in a collection of dumb ideas. I don't want to see my favorite set ruined by you.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
[ QUOTE ]
But in all cases I know of the differences basically amount to minor nerfs to the set for all non-Defender ATs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Repulsion Bomb's stun duration is superior for 'trollers as is the mag of Detention Field. For MMs, all non-buff powers in FF are /identical/ to the defender equivalents.
Numbers:
RB: 14.9 second stun duration for 'trollers; 11.92 for defenders.
Det Field: 5.96 Untouchable to Target for 30 seconds for defenders; 7.45 Untouchable to Target for 30 seconds for 'trollers.
The difference in Det. Field's mag might be why 'trollers report greater success in caging AVs than defenders.
Edit for some clarity.
[ QUOTE ]
The difference in Det. Field's mag might be why 'trollers report greater success in caging AVs than defenders.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, if that's true, _that's_ a change to give to FF Defenders to buff them up.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
I didn't tell you to shut up. I politely asked you to leave a thread alone that is entirely about changes to the FF Defender primary. You are primarily concerned with "Force Fields" as a whole (and possibly the Controller FF secondary given your unique experiences), and what I'm trying to tell you is that this conversation has nothing to do with Force Fields as a whole or any other version of it, it is entirely and only about the Defender primary. That's it.
If you want to post more than once in a thread in the DEFENDER forum about how you DON'T want change in a thread that's called specifically "Make Your FF Change Suggestions Here!", well I honestly don't know what else to say. I can see why you might want to pop in here and just say "No" once.... but I think we got the point the first time. You don't want change. Thus any change to you would be "stupid".
You've said your piece, in the nicest way I can think of, I'm just asking you to kindly move on.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The difference in Det. Field's mag might be why 'trollers report greater success in caging AVs than defenders.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, if that's true, _that's_ a change to give to FF Defenders to buff them up.
[/ QUOTE ]
That can't be done since 'trollers 'trol better than defenders. The AT modifiers are among the last things the devs will [censored] with.
I think that by looking at FF in isolation you would be hard pressed to say that it was broken as a set. It does major defence and knockback exceedingly well.
Looking at the set a bit more holistically I would say that it is definitely broken. There is not enough of a disparity in terms of numbers and utility between primary and secondary.
I know this doesn't seem to bother the devs, but FF defenders are very very thin on the ground. That should tell you something. They're either not fun to play, or they're don't add enough utility to a team - at least in comparison to other sets. The vast majority of defenders I see when I play are either Emps, Rad, Dark or Kin. The proof is in the player base, not all of them can be idiots.
That said, I am really impressed by the ideas conveyed in this thread. I concur with the idea that Force Bubble should have some -acc and -res component to both differentiate it from Repulsion Field (which I think is OK now) and add some team utility. Maybe it can cost more to run to compensate for the extra debuffs.
I think Force Bolt is OK without adding damage - although sometimes I notice that it knocks back people into a standing up position, and it has essentially no effect until you use it again.
Detention Field as a toggle would be great, but it sounds like major back end work.
Repulsion Bomb should have a longer recharge, but quicker activation and a higher scale disorient. Make it DO something.