Discussion: Credit Card Billing Issues
By
1_800_Spines,
Posted on: 2007-08-30 11:53 in ALL ACCESS Gameplay Technical Issues Bugs
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If you do a bit of web searching you can find some discussion and posts about credit card fraud in that "other" MMO. It's really an industry wide issue and not specific to NCsoft.
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True enough Lighthouse...but it still doesn't answer the question regarding why a number of people, who are with different financial institutions and have never had any problems using their credit card for their NCSoft payments in the past, are just now starting to encounter problems. Again, it just seems a little weird to me that all these financial institutions would change their fraud polices around the same time.
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I do believe they have said that they (NCSoft) have NOT changed how/where from the billing comes from.
And yes, it is VERY likely that the banks would all change their policies at the same time for the same thing - they are in the Money Business, and many if not all will have the same basic policy. And they share fraud alerts/info - your back, my back kinda thing.
The big difference between one financial institution and another tends to be the implementation/customer service.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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I had a situation where after 2 year of quarterly payments through my Debit Card I I encountered a situation where, because my Bank was reporting an erroneous (old) balance the Payment rejected. Since then NC Soft has Refused to take this Card as payment regardless of balance. Forcing me to buy game Time cards each month (I can only find 30 day in Stock locally in Cleveland)
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So what did the billing department say about why they won't take it?
Only reason I could think of would also result in your account being banned.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
I'm just curious if this issue is mainly affecting clients in the US, Europe, or rest of the world?
I've been paying via credit card from New Zealand for the last 3 years and have never had a problem with my NCSoft account or the billing process.
(although the fluctuating exchange rate between NZD and USD can be a blessing and a curse at times)
Only U.S.A., as far as I know.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
Fraud affects all banks and credit companies equally, so it's something that transcends market competition. It's just sensible for them to have all gotten together to discuss and implement a global policy for dealing with this new form of fraud. I'm really not surprised to find all these financial institutions changing their policies all at once.
It's a big pain in the butt for legitimate users, but I gather that identity theft for the purpose of funding MMO subscriptions is becoming a big enough issue that banks and credit companies are having to seriously crack down. Still, it's an inconvenience I'm willing to accept, if it means more consumer protection in the long run.
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You should see the threads about this stuff on the Guild Wars forums...at least we haven't heard of anyone getting their CoH/V account perma-banned for fraudulent use of their own credit cards.
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So now that you are admitting that credit card "issues" do happen, does this mean that you will reverse your draconian policy and allow Phantastic back into the game again?
Or will NCSoft continue with it's "One mistake and your account is locked forever" policy?
Peregrine, while I feel for Phantastik's situation, it's not really appropriate to bring up her issue in this thread. First, we really shouldn't be discussing individual's accounts on this thread (remember why Ex Libris locked that thread in the Justice forum in the first place?). Secondly, Phantastik's credit card "issue" is a completely different scenario than the issue that Lighthouse is talking about. It's one thing for a charge to be denied by an individual's financial institution as a result of a fraud policy (which is out of the customer's control)...it's completely another when the charge is denied by a member of the customer's household (which is something the customer can control).
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It's a big pain in the butt for legitimate users, but I gather that identity theft for the purpose of funding MMO subscriptions is becoming a big enough issue that banks and credit companies are having to seriously crack down. Still, it's an inconvenience I'm willing to accept, if it means more consumer protection in the long run.
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While I concur that credit card companies should work diligently on preventing identity theft/credit card fraud, I find the following quite worrisome...
<ul type="square">[*] Credit card companies are automatically denying payment without first checking with the customer to ensure that the charge is legitimate.
[*] Customers are not receiving any sort of notification from the bank that potential fraudulent activity occurred on their account and that a charge has been denied.
[*] When players call their bank to see why the charge was denied, there are some cases where the bank's general customer support is unable to tell what is going on and are telling the players that no charge had been denied. It's only when players call the fraud department at the bank that they are able to find information regarding the denied charge.
[*] When players try to get their banks to flag the charge as legitimate on their account, there are some cases where the banks will not allow charges from NCSoft to be permanently flagged as "legitimate" on their accounts and banks are forcing the players to call to okay the charge every time the charge comes due (making it quite difficult for players who have monthly subscriptions). There are other cases where the banks are outright denying any charges from that specific IP (even when the customer calls to say it's legit) and will not allow the charge to go through in any way, shape or form.[/list]
Banks should work with customers, not against them, in their fight against credit card fraud and identity theft. When banks begin working against customers by making it difficult or impossible to allow legitimate charges to go through, it's really crosses the line of being cautious and becomes paranoia.
It crosses the line from being a good credit card to a credit card that needs replacing.
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It's one thing for a charge to be denied by an individual's financial institution as a result of a fraud policy (which is out of the customer's control)...it's completely another when the charge is denied by a member of the customer's household (which is something the customer can control).
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I hate to say it, but no, I do not have mind control over everyone in my household, and I doubt anyone else does either.
I don't see it as that different. If the person who denied the charge certifies it as an error, offers for example a notarized statement that the charge was in fact legitimate and offers to pay the penalty incurred by the charge back, I think they should not permanently ban the account for that error on the part of the friend/relative of the player. Any more than they do for an error on the part of a bank.
There isn't any more control. Possibly more recrimination, but all you can do about either one is yell at them till they try to assuage you (the bank or your relative/friend).
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So now that you are admitting that credit card "issues" do happen, does this mean that you will reverse your draconian policy and allow Phantastic back into the game again?
Or will NCSoft continue with it's "One mistake and your account is locked forever" policy?
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Totally different scenarios - this one is to prevent fraud, and isn't black-balling NCSoft.
A charge-back puts a black mark on the company.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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I hate to say it, but no, I do not have mind control over everyone in my household, and I doubt anyone else does either.
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You don't have to have anyone else on your credit card, though. And if a CC company caused me to lose my account, and I couldn't get it back, because they allowed someone not authorized to do a charge-back, they would be paying me every cent I ever spent on the game back.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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[LIST][*] Credit card companies are automatically denying payment without first checking with the customer to ensure that the charge is legitimate.
[*] Customers are not receiving any sort of notification from the bank that potential fraudulent activity occurred on their account and that a charge has been denied.
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ALL CC companies and banks will deny a transaction that can be flagged as Fraud or suspicious activity. I've had it happen. Unfortunatly. The one time I spend 750.00 ( I'd never to that date spent more than maybe $200 at a time on my card) it was flagged and the transaction was denied. Sucked being in the middle of Lowes and having to fight with my bank. It locked down my Card, my entire account for 24 hours. I couldnt' do anything and I was told neither could they, that even with my "permission" it would take 24 hours to clear.
I don't know about you.. but I get online notices sent to both my email and text message from my bank when a charge is denied based on a fraud notice. I suppose tho if you never get a flag you'd never get a notice or unless your not signed up for it. Do I expect the bank to call me? Not at all.. that would be an incredible resource that for the situation is easier done by email/text and costs less. When I purchased my web site I recieved a notice of "unusual activity".
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I don't know about you.. but I get online notices sent to both my email and text message from my bank when a charge is denied based on a fraud notice. I suppose tho if you never get a flag you'd never get a notice or unless your not signed up for it. Do I expect the bank to call me? Not at all.. that would be an incredible resource that for the situation is easier done by email/text and costs less. When I purchased my web site I recieved a notice of "unusual activity".
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To clarify, I haven't had any of the problems that I listed...just summarized what I've been hearing from people in various threads. 
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This thread makes me appreciate that, about twice a year, I get a call from my bank saying "There is a US company called NCsoft that has placed a charge on your card - is this legitimate?" There are few times I'd say that Australian banks have offered excellent customer service, but every time I get one of those calls I am impressed.
I much prefer that to the 'deny now, fix later' attitude that the US banks seem to be taking.
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This thread makes me appreciate that, about twice a year, I get a call from my bank saying "There is a US company called NCsoft that has placed a charge on your card - is this legitimate?" There are few times I'd say that Australian banks have offered excellent customer service, but every time I get one of those calls I am impressed.
I much prefer that to the 'deny now, fix later' attitude that the US banks seem to be taking.
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Yes, and hopefully my bank either a) does the same, or b) doesn't challenge it since it has been occurring since mid-way 04.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
Just to add my experience with credit card companies to the list, I recently moved far enough that I had to change banks. With the new account came a new credit card, so I decided to switch over everything from my old Capital One card to consolidate all my statements (and because I never really liked capital one anyway). For some rason the bank flagged to one dollar test transaction that NCsoft uses to make sure it's a valid card as possibly fraudulent. Luckily (VERY luckily, from the looks of this thread) there was no difficulty whatsoever in calling them and getting it cleared up, but I've played many different MMOs and a lot of them use that mechanism and this hadn't happened before. For that matter, I've changed credit cards for payment with NCsoft before without this happening. The customer service rep said that it was likely because they hyper-scrutinize everything in the first month you have a card, but if the intention is to get a feel for what a person's legitamite purchasing habits look like, it seems a little odd.
I suspect that this is like the current US airline security regulations: general awareness of identity theft has reached significant levels. Therefor they must be seen to be doing something visible to counter it, whether or not it provides any actual protection. On the cross country flight over here I noticed a couple of ways to completely bypass the added features since 2001, and I've always wondered why no-one worries about the use of ceramics and plastice in the making of knives.
I would guess (from my marginally informed perspective) that 90 percent of the time a single uncharacteristic transaction is not a sign that a card has been co-opted by someone else. I know that almost everything that I put on my card is a one time purchase. I far perfer to have any regular bills go to my checking account, since one way or another that's where the money's coming from anyway.
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That explains what happened to me. I have a SEFCU Visa CC, when trying to resubscribe to this game last month my CC was repeatedly denied. I thought it was NCsoft's system, so I just went to onlinecdkey.com and bought a gametime key with the same CC and used that to resub. Worked out fine in the end, but it was confusing and a waste of 3-4 hours.
Doesn't make sense to me because I've been billed by NCsoft for years of playing Lineage 2, Auto Assault, and CoX. Why they would suddenly deem those charges suspicious is beyond me, and quite frankly angering. I hate calling people on the phone, and if I'm forced to in order to get a charge to go through in the near future, then I'll be getting a new CC.
A few months ago they completely locked my card down when I tried to buy a $30 game online from a European store. Now that was annoying, and I suppose an indication of the precautions CCs are starting to take. The thing is, I use a CC for convenience...
Well, with Issue 10, I decided to re-activate my account and ran into the same issue. After lots of calls to NCsoft, my bank and Visa, I got it cleared.
Today, it happened again (one monthly billing). Of course it would happen on a Friday afternoon, after the bank closes.
The fact of the matter is this is bad for NCsoft. Its never good when your customers can not buy your product. Many folks may buy one or two game cards (if they can find it)...but then they will just stop....to many other games and options to choose from.
Got to run, found a store the has one last game card....
Mine was just denied because it had been used for too many accounts. Because I had paid for my sisters becasue her card wouldn't go through.
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I had something similar happen to me recently. I'm UK-based and despite the fact I've been paying for this game for three years without a break, my bank denied the overseas transaction at the end of July, for what they said were "activities inconsistent with general usage of card."
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I experienced the same deal and so have a few of my friends.
Most annoying though is that the system NC use for credit card payment doesn't refresh very quickly. So once my bank had authorised the payment I couldn't resubmit for another day 
To stop the transaction being blocked each time I had to get my account flagged for "internet use".
I was not very impressed by the whole thing. I don't mind them flagging something as suspicious but one look at my account would have shown that practically the ONLY thing I use my credit card for is paying for this game AND I have been doing that for 3 years. PLUS they (the bank) would never have informed me that the transaction had been refused. Which is stupid and inexcusable.
*rant over*
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I've read over all of these posts and the general feel I get is that this very same scenario for the first time happened to me with both of my CoX accounts. I am not convinced, however, that this rests solely on the banks themselves and fully believe that NCSoft has a hand in it as well.
My scenario starts out as many of yours did with my finding my accounts deactivated. The difference here is that no matter which card I used, I was unable to activate my account. Debit card or credit card (I have 4 CCs and 4 bank debit cards). I have used 1 debit card for the past year and a half and I have never used any of the CCs for my account. However, once my account was deactivated, I was literally unable to use a brand new card to activate my account. 24 hours would have to elapse before I could reactivate an account and lo and behold...the day after that, my 2nd account was deactivated.
While I admit that my bank may have declined the charges and I will need to contact them, I also strongly believe that the denial of the charges by the bank itself causes NCSoft's billing system to lock your account for at least 24 hours, preventing you from using a shiny new card (or at least one that has never had an NCSoft charge on it) from being used to reactivate an account.
What is interesting is that when I view the PlayNC account management information, althought I entered my CC information to reactivate my first account, the account shows "No Credit Card On File". In fact, this is the text that shows up on the page:
Billing Summary
Credit Card on File
None
Scheduled Payments
Next Bill Date Account Name Game Billing Plan
Oct 23 2007 [MYACCOUNTNAME] City of Heroes® 1 Month Recurring CANCEL BILLING
Transaction History (Last 180 Days)
Date Order Number Item Total
Sep 23 2007 5541767 City of Heroes® [1 month subscription] $14.99 (USD)
Sep 21 2007 5523710 CoX Character Transfer $9.99 (USD)
Sep 21 2007 5521402 CoX Character Transfer $9.99 (USD)
Sep 21 2007 5521446 CoX Character Transfer $9.99 (USD)
Aug 24 2007 5114404 City of Heroes® [1 month subscription] $14.99 (USD)
Aug 22 2007 5080289 City of Heroes® [1 month subscription] $14.99 (USD)
Jul 24 2007 4661336 City of Heroes® [1 month subscription] $14.99 (USD)
Jul 22 2007 4620603 City of Heroes® [1 month subscription] $14.99 (USD)
Jun 24 2007 4222462 City of Heroes® [1 month subscription] $14.99 (USD)
Jun 22 2007 4193001 City of Heroes® [1 month subscription] $14.99 (USD)
May 24 2007 3828644 City of Heroes® [1 month subscription] $14.99 (USD)
May 22 2007 3808311 City of Heroes® [1 month subscription] $14.99 (USD)
Apr 24 2007 3543391 City of Heroes® [1 month subscription] $14.99 (USD)
Apr 22 2007 3526419 City of Heroes® [1 month subscription] $14.99 (USD)
Game Time Cards
None
So again, I've entered my CC information yet it seems as if the NCSoft database or billing system is not keeping the card information for recurring billing to occur. Someone please check over this and let me know if I'm completely off the mark here.
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It's a big pain in the butt for legitimate users, but I gather that identity theft for the purpose of funding MMO subscriptions is becoming a big enough issue that banks and credit companies are having to seriously crack down. Still, it's an inconvenience I'm willing to accept, if it means more consumer protection in the long run.
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While I concur that credit card companies should work diligently on preventing identity theft/credit card fraud, I find the following quite worrisome...
<ul type="square">[*] Credit card companies are automatically denying payment without first checking with the customer to ensure that the charge is legitimate.
[*] Customers are not receiving any sort of notification from the bank that potential fraudulent activity occurred on their account and that a charge has been denied.
[*] When players call their bank to see why the charge was denied, there are some cases where the bank's general customer support is unable to tell what is going on and are telling the players that no charge had been denied. It's only when players call the fraud department at the bank that they are able to find information regarding the denied charge.
[*] When players try to get their banks to flag the charge as legitimate on their account, there are some cases where the banks will not allow charges from NCSoft to be permanently flagged as "legitimate" on their accounts and banks are forcing the players to call to okay the charge every time the charge comes due (making it quite difficult for players who have monthly subscriptions). There are other cases where the banks are outright denying any charges from that specific IP (even when the customer calls to say it's legit) and will not allow the charge to go through in any way, shape or form.[/list]
Banks should work with customers, not against them, in their fight against credit card fraud and identity theft. When banks begin working against customers by making it difficult or impossible to allow legitimate charges to go through, it's really crosses the line of being cautious and becomes paranoia.
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The thing is..its not generally in the banks interest to do that. Its the same reason most larger banks have highly draconian methods for processing bills in order to falsely create overdrafts. Theyre more interested in getting, and keeping, your money, so that they can invest it, than if you're actually enjoying your banking experience. Credit fraud makes them lose money. therefore its something they'll do anything to stop.
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If you do a bit of web searching you can find some discussion and posts about credit card fraud in that "other" MMO. It's really an industry wide issue and not specific to NCsoft.
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True enough Lighthouse...but it still doesn't answer the question regarding why a number of people, who are with different financial institutions and have never had any problems using their credit card for their NCSoft payments in the past, are just now starting to encounter problems. Again, it just seems a little weird to me that all these financial institutions would change their fraud polices around the same time. Is this an issue that is a recent development industry wide, or were players with those "other" MMOs encountering billing problems before the NCSoft issue (just trying to get a sense of timing here).
If this indeed a case of the entire financial industry implementing a global change to their fraud policy, I'm quite sure a number of people are very curious is there is anything NCSoft (or the entire MMO industry as a whole) is doing their end to make it a little easier on the players? It's a little harsh to be denied service to CO* because a legitimate charge was denied at no fault of the customer. Since this seems to be affecting the entire MMO industry, that likely means that an increasing number of CO* players are going to be encountering this problem in the future. Is there anything in the works in NCSoft's billing department (i.e. a grace period, changing billing IPs, contacting the financial institutions to see if there is anything that could be done to remedy the problem, etc) to resolve the issue and/or make the problem a little more bearable for the playerbase?
Sorry, but there was just no assurance in your post that "NCSoft is doing everything in their power to help remedy the issue." No offense, but the tone of the post was a little more dismissive and read more like "It's the bank's fault, not ours. It's your responsibility to call them and make sure the charge goes through." It just kinda seemed to leap the entire burden of responsibility upon the players, who are the ones who are not at fault in this issue. True enough that it's not NCSoft's fault either; however, the more responsibility you place upon a player to resolve an issue that is not their fault, the more risk you incur at loosing said player. So NCSoft certainly has a vested interest (perhaps even moreso than an individual player) in taking action against these financial institutions.
I would hope if this is something that affects the entire MMO industry, NCSoft would at least try to do something on their end to work something out with the financial industry to help protect their revenue stream (i.e. ensuring their playerbase does not diminish as a result of this issue).
The more information we players have regarding this issue, there will be less speculation and we will be better able to work with NCSoft and our financial institutions to find a solution to this problem.