Discussion: Poll for Power Set Feedback!
By
2Negative,
Posted on: 2007-05-22 14:02 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
They also said we have a voice us it. Give them examples of your density set. Invisiblity in it I'm taking it, like illusion controllers, I love ghosting.
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They also said we have a voice us it. Give them examples of your density set. Invisiblity in it I'm taking it, like illusion controllers, I love ghosting.
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Think Sandman. He is the best example of density control.
Please don't take away my power to see through walls it rocks. If anyone is complaining about that shame on you.
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Please don't take away my power to see through walls it rocks. If anyone is complaining about that shame on you.
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What on earth are you talking about?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Density - think Vision from the comics..
make yourself super-dense (+Def) or decrease your density (can't attack or be attacked), possibly affect enemies.. make them so dense they can't move and so on.
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Good. That's not how I saw it when I was voting. and while you might think that, is that how the Devs view it? Is that how everyone else who took the survey viewed it? Personal interpretation shouldn't be as large of a factor as it was.
A general description of the sets and how the Devs think they'd work should have accompanied each of the surveys.
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How else would density control be used? It is a common concept. Characters with Water or Sand compositions would use density control as their means of defense.
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In regards to the poll being up for less than 24 hours:
We amassed a ton of votes in that short amount of time. In addition, a large percentage of those votes came from people who signed up for the forums just yesterday, so it's not just the "vocal minority" having their say. A lot of new-to-the-boards players got their voice in this.
In addition, there is a weirdness in the forum software that would force us to re-put up the polls (again) allowing you all a chance to vote twice, and that would have a far greater impact on the poll results than the data we received.
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Poorly planned. I have been playing since beta 3 and have 2 accounts and I don't get a voice in this poll because I didn't log into the forums for the very brief time it was up. How about an in game poll? Mythic does it that way at login. Oh wait, I'm sure you'll say you don't have the technology for that either.
Ah, well, my opinion does not matter in this issue as evidenced by the rather brief poll so why the heck am I bothering to post here anyway?
My thoughts:
Street Fighting: Gets my first vote. Steer clear of anything that resembles martial arts though. This should be a brutal looking powerset, as opposed to the finesse shown by MA. Should work fine with Tankers, Scrappers, Brutes and Stalkers too.
Electric Hammer: Isnt there already an Electric Melee for Brutes? {Why havent more of the Brute primaries not been implimented for Tankers secondaries?} If this power was just Sledgehammer (as mentioned above) I'd like it more. Even then, what would seperate it from War Mace? Doesnt quite get my vote, but it sounds ok with some work.
Energy Blade: I'll jump on the Jedi wagon here. I'm opposed to this power. There is enough blade weapons in the game as it is. Stop the madness. Bad idea.
Psionic Weapons: At first I was unsure, but it brings some interesting possiblities to the Tanks. Most are not very strong against psionics, yet here is a set that is all psionic. It sounds more scrapper/stalker to me. I'd like to see more, but it still doesnt get my vote.
Dual Blades: I guess you could do this one. It is the logical next step power from all the other weapon powers. However, it doesnt seem interesting... just graphically twice what they are. No vote.
Ball and Chain: Like the Sledgehammer and War Mace, I am not sure how this weapon would differ. I love this idea more than either Sledgehammer or War Mace though. I just cant vote for it though unless I see more.
Shield Fighting: About damn time. I saw this and about collapsed outta my chair. I'd vote multiple times for this one if only I could. And I could, I'm just lazy.
I also saw a SPEAR suggestion.
Spear: This would really be the next best weapon power. We already have slashing and bashing weapons, why not something that pokes? Historically spears are vital to cultures across the world, and the possibilities for Spear-Heroes are about limitless. I'd make one.
That's my opinions. Seem similiar to some of the others here.
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In regards to the poll being up for less than 24 hours:
We amassed a ton of votes in that short amount of time. In addition, a large percentage of those votes came from people who signed up for the forums just yesterday, so it's not just the "vocal minority" having their say. A lot of new-to-the-boards players got their voice in this.
In addition, there is a weirdness in the forum software that would force us to re-put up the polls (again) allowing you all a chance to vote twice, and that would have a far greater impact on the poll results than the data we received.
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Poorly planned. I have been playing since beta 3 and have 2 accounts and I don't get a voice in this poll because I didn't log into the forums for the very brief time it was up. How about an in game poll? Mythic does it that way at login. Oh wait, I'm sure you'll say you don't have the technology for that either.
Ah, well, my opinion does not matter in this issue as evidenced by the rather brief poll so why the heck am I bothering to post here anyway?
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/signed
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Density - think Vision from the comics..
make yourself super-dense (+Def) or decrease your density (can't attack or be attacked), possibly affect enemies.. make them so dense they can't move and so on.
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Good. That's not how I saw it when I was voting. and while you might think that, is that how the Devs view it? Is that how everyone else who took the survey viewed it? Personal interpretation shouldn't be as large of a factor as it was.
A general description of the sets and how the Devs think they'd work should have accompanied each of the surveys.
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How else would density control be used? It is a common concept. Characters with Water or Sand compositions would use density control as their means of defense.
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Again, good. That's not how I saw it. And people with water or sand bodies, like Sandman, I would regard differently than something like Vision. So there are several different interpretations of what this set would actually do. Is it a defense set (you're less dense, so some attacks go right through you)? Is is a resistance set (you make yourself more dense so attacks do more damage)? A combo of both? Something else? What?
That's what I'd like to know. What is the basic concept behind the sets FOR THE DEVS? Because even though you think you might get the concept of it, what if it gets voted in, and then several months down the line the Devs come out with something that isn't even close to what you were thinking?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Sandman, Vision, and Hydroman would ALL be examples. It's like saying all Invulns are the same in the comics. Nothing is exact, but you asked fot the basic concept. Don't get defensive since a couple people gave you some examples to answer the question.
Power gamers are still going to min/max and make builds that make no sence conceptually, and the concept gamers are just going to take the set for it's name sake like always.
Don't disagree with a description being needed, but most folks are going to understand the concepts if they have already been wanting something similar. It just clicks.
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As you have probably heard us say before, we are constantly trying to bring you cool stuff in the 'City Of' games! We want to make sure that the stuff we bring you is actually desired by the players as a whole, as opposed to a vocal minority.
O Dual Blades
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Dibs of Drizzt.
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O Ball and Chain *
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I think ball and chain looks the most promising. Once the technology is on place it should be a simple step to base nunchucks off of them. For all of the martial arts characters who wouldn't want a nunchuck power set. Maybe a three section staff too.
What I really would like to see is Scorpion's chain attack from Mortal Kombat. How fun would pulling be then....Get over here!
Poison Pill
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The intent is to fill in the two Archetypes with the least number of powers: Tanker primary and Scrapper secondary, which only have 4 choices currently.
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I'm not claiming that this is a lie, but it is grossly incorrect.
The Tanker Primary and Scrapper Secondary Powersets belong to the Powerset Class called "Defense." There are a total 10 different Powersets in the Defense Class. Is that a lot or a little? Well, let's compare it to the other Powerset Classes, of which there are eight. I will list them in order from the Class with the most Powersets to the Class with the least:<ul type="square">[*]Melee - 15[*]Buff - 12[*]Defense - 10[*]Ranged - 10[*]Control - 7[*]Assault - 5[*]Summon -5[*]Support - 5[/list]
Notice that Defense is tied for 3rd place with the most Powersets. Notice also that Tankers and Scrappers use the Melee Class Powersets of which there are 15 Powersets... the *highest* amount of Powersets. So, even if there is some merit to the claim the Defense needs to be beefed up, the second poll regarding Melee is completely unwarranted based on the so-called need to redress shortcomings in numbers.
There is no shortcomings in the number of Powersets of the Defense or Melee Classes when compared to the other Powerset Classes.
So, what about the fact that Scrappers and Tankers can only chose from among 4 Powersets each? Well, that is true, but only because the Developers made the decision not to share the Defense Powersets among the 4 ATs that use them. I don't know why. Look at the Ranged Class. There are three ATs that share that Class of Powersets and each of those three ATs can chose from 7 of those 10. So why are the Ranged Powersets liberally shared but the Defense Powersets are not?
Lets take a look at those Defense Powersets, listed by which ATs can use them:
Scrapper/Brute/Stalker
+ Dark Armor
Tank
+ Ice Armor
Tank & Brute
+ Fiery Aura
+ Stone Armor
Scrapper/Tank/Brute
+ Invulnerability
Scrapper & Stalker
+ Regeneration
+ Super Reflexes
Stalker
+ Ninjitsu
Brute & Stalker
+ Energy Aura
Brute
+ Electric Armor
Is there some reason Scrappers can't have Fiery Aura, Energy Aura, Electric Armor or Ninjitsu? Is there some reason Tanks can't have Energy Aura, Electric Armor, or Dark Armor?
So, I will agree that Defense could use one or two more Powersets, however, I will vehemently disagree that they need special attention if it comes at the cost of neglecting the other classes which have a much more limited number of Powersets in their Class. Letting Defensive Sets be more liberally shared is an easy solution (I presume, coding-wise). Share those sets first, then address the other Classes that are truly in need of more love than the Defense Class. Only then, work on new Powersets for Defense.
Now, getting back to the other poll on the Melee Class: REALLY!?? Melee has 15 Powersets. It has a significantly higher number of sets than any other Class. Tanks have access to 7 of these and Scrappers have access to 6 of them, which is more choices than seven other AT secondaries and primaries have. When it comes to Melee, Tankers and Scrappers have the most choices than most of the other ATs. No, really, are you serious here? There's a Melee glut and and Tankers and Scrappers have their full of them. And you're saying new Melee Powersets is seen as a *need*? Really? I don't get it.
Another way to evaluate AT choices is to look at the total combination of Powersets from the Primary and Secondary. Currently, there are 24 unique Scrapper combos and 28 Tanker combos. That is low, but there are other ATs just as low. There are only 25 MasterMind and 25 Dominator combos that are possible. Where's the love for them and their lack of choices? And if you simply shared two extra Defense Powersets with the Scrappers and Tankers, then they'd have 36 and 42 combos, putting them near the top of the combo ladder.
In short, unless the Powerset Classes that are *truly* bereft of choices currently have new Powersets in the works, there should be no attention paid to Classes that have a wide variety of Powersets, such as Melee and Defense.
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Right, the 'if they wanted something similar' things is what bugs me. There are examples for density control, but what about vibration? What would that even be like in-game? What would set it apart from the other sets that we have? What would set it apart from the other sets on the list.
THAT is what I'm looking for here. Basically, if the Devs have in mind that there really isn't a huge mechanical difference between Force Fields, Density Control, and Vibration, why are they all on the list?
Without knowing what the concepts are behind the sets, can we accurately judge what set we want the Devs to make?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
For something different, I'll throw my voice out there for Shield Defense and Street Fighting.
Shields for the variety in that it's not the body of the tanker/scrapper that's so tough, they just know how to handle a shield.
And street fighting for a melee set that isn't so flashy as most of the others.
These sets would compliment one another nicely, too, were they on the same AT.
Zombie, Tankers and scrappers have not gotten any new sets since the game came out. Whether we get something by porting over an existing set or a new set, you can't deny that those two ATs have gotten no new powersets in over three years. I think it's high time we got something new, don't you?
I mean, Brutes got two new sets since CoH came out, in the form of Energy Aura and Electric Armor. Now, granted they haven't been around as long, but I'm just saying they got some newer stuff than Tanks and Scrappers have. Stalkers got Ninjitsu and Energy Armor.
So, while Tankers and Scrappers might be able to draw on the most pools with just a direct porting, they haven't been able to use those sets for 3 years. I think we're entitled to some love. Hell, we've been asking for it for long enough.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
So wait you had a very important poll that wasn't announced on the game launcher til late afternoon or even maybe today by which time you'd already closed the polls?! I seriously doubt you got a good sample from the community with a poll that wasn't open more than a day (if that).
I think it would also help everyone if we knew what Cryptics idea for each of these powersets is. Quite often in the past Cryptics ideas of what is "right" for the players or what makes sense for a power have been very different from our own.
Really what the heck is Willpower and Vibration as a defense?? Please elaborate because from what I can imagine Willpower wouldn't be a whole lot different than Invincibility, just with new names and maybe a different goofy looking sparkle effect. Same for density control and FF...
Electric Hammer? Mace with energy damage? Ok a little different. Street Fighting? Martial Arts with less kicking basically?
The only ones that don't sound like the same old hobo with a new coat are the ones you say would take forever to implement (makes sense since it's something totally new).
Some idea of what you think when you imagine these powers in practice would be helpful.
edit: Aett I coulda sworn the Energy Auras and Ninjitsu were already in CoV at launch...porting Energy Aura over to tanks an maybe even scraps would be a great idea and should have been done long ago.
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Posi, how are you going to account for the skewedness of the poll?
What I mean is that we have no idea what your intentions were behind some of the sets. Like, how is Vibration different than Fore Fields? How is either of those different than current armors?
Shields are going to be massively over-represented in this survey because they're an easy concept to grasp. Density, Vibration, and FF I feel would be underrepresented because we have no idea what they actually MEAN. The poll, as put forward by your team, will be significantly skewed because of factors like this. You've introduced several complicating variables into the equation.
I'm not saying that shields wouldn't win anyways, but really, I mean how do you expect us to choose between vibration and density armor if we don't know how they'd be different?
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Exactly. Here, I've got another poll. I'm introducing a new ice cream flavor. Please tell me which one tastes best:
<ul type="square">[*] Green[*] Cloud[*] Sweater[*] Apricot-alicious[*] Fred[/list]
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Posi, how are you going to account for the skewedness of the poll?
What I mean is that we have no idea what your intentions were behind some of the sets. Like, how is Vibration different than Fore Fields? How is either of those different than current armors?
Shields are going to be massively over-represented in this survey because they're an easy concept to grasp. Density, Vibration, and FF I feel would be underrepresented because we have no idea what they actually MEAN. The poll, as put forward by your team, will be significantly skewed because of factors like this. You've introduced several complicating variables into the equation.
I'm not saying that shields wouldn't win anyways, but really, I mean how do you expect us to choose between vibration and density armor if we don't know how they'd be different?
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Exactly. Here, I've got another poll. I'm introducing a new ice cream flavor. Please tell me which one tastes best:
<ul type="square">[*] Green[*] Cloud[*] Sweater[*] Apricot-alicious[*] Fred[/list]
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I choose Fred. Fred's always taste nic...errr...I mean, so I've heard.
But this is exactly what I'm talking about. Out of that list, Apricot is what I'd go with, because it's the only one I know what it should be like. The rest I can't actually judge what it would taste like.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
OK, if there is going to be a new Defense Powerset, then I suggest:
Magic Ward Defense Powerset
We've seen a little of this with the Patron Powerset shields and with the magical scripts floating about the Banished Pantheon, especially the masks.
Floaty wards that don't have to conform tightly to a model would be easy to code, I imagine. Plus none of the other Defense Powersets are very magical (Dark comes a little close).
Besides, I don't remember Gandalf getting hit a lot, got to be some sort of magical defense out there.
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Positron I think you have completely underestimated just how important this issue is to the fanbase. This is monumental to us and with the way you are handling it you are as likely to loose customers as gain any new ones. This issue is huge to us and I don't think I can possibly describe just how important it is. A briefly posted poll does not do it justice in anyway. Everyone who plays this game has an implied investiment in this issue and we should all be given a fair chance to be heard.
And besides, I don't see Prefessional Wrestling on the melee list.
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MAny serious 'street fighting' character is likely to rely on Martial Arts training before too long.
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What I want when I voted Street Fighting was a brawling/punching set. Basically, the same as Martial Arts, only you'd actually use your fists.
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Yes, I presumed the "Street Fighting" set woudl be a Punching, Hand/Fist/Arm oriented form of martial arts, whereas "Martial Arts" as Scrappers already have it is a Kicking, Foot/Leg oriented combat style.
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edit: Aett I coulda sworn the Energy Auras and Ninjitsu were already in CoV at launch...porting Energy Aura over to tanks an maybe even scraps would be a great idea and should have been done long ago.
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They were in CoV at launch, but not CoH. Scrappers and Tankers were asking for new sets before CoV even came out. Then CoV was released, and we saw that certain sets that we had been asking for were being given to the new ATs and not us at the same time.
I'm not saying that other ATs don't need new powersets too, but when it comes to who should get them first, Tanks and Scrappers should be it.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Offense:
Psychic Weapons, Dual Blades (Street Fighting a close 3rd)
Defense:
Force Fields, and Shields I guess... don't know what the others are.
On a side note: No Staff Fighting? Booooooooo...
What exactly is the data that they could have gotta from a forum poll that warrented being taken down in less than 24 hours?
I mean it's a freaking POLL? You click one choice in category A and one in B... The computer counts up the totals and that's that. Least they could do is leave it up for a couple days, not like it's sucking down server bandwidth to let people click two buttons and submit...
As has been said, without telling us what the heck you're imagining when you say Density or Vibration or Psionic Weaponry we have no way of voting for what COULD be much cooler sets than Shields or Ball an Chain or whatever that sounded like something we can see in our heads.
Totally dropped the ball on this one, guess those late nights and having the "A" team on Marvel Universe Online are starting to take their toll.
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In regards to the poll being up for less than 24 hours:
We amassed a ton of votes in that short amount of time. In addition, a large percentage of those votes came from people who signed up for the forums just yesterday, so it's not just the "vocal minority" having their say. A lot of new-to-the-boards players got their voice in this.
In addition, there is a weirdness in the forum software that would force us to re-put up the polls (again) allowing you all a chance to vote twice, and that would have a far greater impact on the poll results than the data we received.
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You might want to check some of those "recent sign ups"
They are more then likely zealots who thought they were clever by voting many times. And in this case, your poll may have failed.