Wow! Just, wow! Amazing post.
If I was a dev I'd be having a panic attack right now. How in the world are they going to maintain any sort of balance in a system with this kind of complexity. I'm not complaining I love the system and the fact that there are so many options makes it so much more fun to play with. I just would hate to be Castle, hahahahaha.
s.
[ QUOTE ]
I'll definitely cut down to 1 or 2 slots in Stamina on my Katana/Regen, but yeah. Best I have so far is 4 in FH and 4 in Health.
Man, and right when I thought slots were no longer premium on him. XD
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't even have Stamina in my current mock-up I9 build. No point. So much endurance reduction out there, plus my #1 priority will be getting the +recovery uniques. After those, I don't suspect endurance problems to be anywhere near an issue for my Regen.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Consolidating responses so I don't flood this thread with responses...
Darkonne wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
On a minor formatting note, it would be nice if you could summarize the total +Regen and +Recovery of each setup after listing the individual effects.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a good suggestion, thanks! The current format forces people to do a lot of reading, which isn't fair to the reader. I'll add a summary in the next version and in future installments.
ProcessedMeatSan wrote:
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I encourage you (or maybe a Mod) to organize this stuff and post it in the Guides section so we don't lose it! Assuming you do more of them
[/ QUOTE ]
Eventually I will, although I'm not sure how to clump them together without making for a giant, superdense thread. I'll have to think a little about that - maybe an index post would be a good idea once enough of them have been written.
Right now, though, I'd rather not put them into the Guides section because i9 isn't live and because all of this is subject to change. Once i9 hits live, I'll revise whatever needs changing and then move this stuff to the Guides forum.
Icy_McFlame wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
Just a quick question. As set bonuses don't work when exemplared which would be better for a lvl 50 exemplared down, the new IOs without set bonuses or 3 slotting with SOs?
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know. I've read Liquid's excellent thread tracking this stuff enough to know that it's not a straightforward problem, but I don't understand it well enough off the top of my head to comment. Furthermore, I don't think we know yet if this is a bug or (what's really more important) whether it will be fixed/changed before i9 hits Live. I'm hoping it is a bug and will be fixed somehow, but I'd rather avoid that particular wrinkle until we know for sure. I know that's not the answer you're looking for. I imagine the folks in that thread could tell you better than I can in any event.
HeckTender wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
I personally would find it more useful to compare the recovery rates to 3 slotted Stamina, since that's how pretty much everyone slots it, and it'll go a little further towards telling me if or when I can ditch Stamina altogether.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's a good point. Nobody with more than 50,000 (check out that sexy comma!) inf has unslotted Stamina.
Stamina at max value following my bogus ED hard cap assumption gives a 48.875% buff to recovery. The best recovery cases for Health give you a 27.5% buff. In order to achieve parity with 3 slotted stamina, you'd need 21.375% worth of recovery buffs from set bonuses. That seems like a lot to me, like you'd need around 10 or so set +recovery bonuses to get it. But recovery is a shallow set bonus and it's fairly plentiful, so you may be able to do it or get close enough for your own purposes.
This raises the question of how many slots is one power worth. It's different for every build, but I can definitely see cases where set bonuses will alter slotting in a multitude of other powers (+recharge and +tohit are notable cases).
Scrap
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There is no END set, so Stamina will remain a 3 slot wonder.
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Unless you 2-slot it with common IOs for +84.8% endmod, which gives you a total recovery buff of 46.2%. That's not much worse than 48.875% (which is what you get at my artificial ED hard cap with 3 SO slots) - only 5.5% worse, really, and for many people that third marginal slot will have better applications elsewhere in the build.
[/ QUOTE ]
You don't really need to use an artificial hardcap; the formulas for ED are quite simple. 3 end mod SOs = (33.3%*3) * .7 + 25% = about 95%. 3 +3 = (38.3%*3) * .15 + 80% = 97.2%
There was a wiki article that laid the formulas out but I don't remember where it was.
EDIT: 3 (lv50) IOs: (42.4%*3) * .15 + 80% = 99.1%
This is really awesome. I hope you're collecting these posts and will consider putting them together as a guide and posting it in the guide forum so it doesn't get eaten during board purges.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
[ QUOTE ]
Yep. And why didn't people believe the Devs when they said that ED would diversify things?
[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously, having all players being unquestionably faithful to the devs for 1.5 years after "drastic changes" were made to their favorite characters is a reasonable expectation.
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Yep. And why didn't people believe the Devs when they said that ED would diversify things?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because Inventions did that? 
[/ QUOTE ]
Also, because we could see through what, at the time, was little more than a euphemism.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
[ QUOTE ]
ProcessedMeatSan wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
I encourage you (or maybe a Mod) to organize this stuff and post it in the Guides section so we don't lose it! Assuming you do more of them
[/ QUOTE ]
Eventually I will, although I'm not sure how to clump them together without making for a giant, superdense thread. I'll have to think a little about that - maybe an index post would be a good idea once enough of them have been written.
Right now, though, I'd rather not put them into the Guides section because i9 isn't live and because all of this is subject to change. Once i9 hits live, I'll revise whatever needs changing and then move this stuff to the Guides forum.
[/ QUOTE ]
Take a look at the link in my sig to the Guide to Guides. It shows an example of a thread where each post creates its own section with the first post being an index.
The trick to that is to create a post, and, let's say you have 10 slotting guides, reply to that post 10 times. You can leave each post with just a one word placeholder at first. In the first post, you ask people not to reply until you're done.
Then, you just go back and to a lot of editing, which is just simply cutting and pasting the 10 guides into the 10 posts.
Then you go back to the first post and put in the links to the other 10 posts. (In the Guide to Guide you'll find a guide for referencing a particular post of a thread.) Then you remove the 'do not reply' line and your done.
Then link your guide to the current Guide to Guide threads and I'll make sure it gets referenced when the Guide to Guides is updated.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
<QR>
Interesting post to find today. Nicely written. I was just playing with a concept very similar to this yesterday.
I did have a slight variance to the slotting I was considering. Currently, if you 3 slot both Health and Stamina, and if you maintain your SOs at +3, you'll get a 78.9% bonus to Regen and 59.9% bonus to Recovery.
By dropping Stamina completely, and putting only 4 additional slots into Health (which means the same number of slots used, but one less power taken), I was looking at the following possible set up:
Regenerative Tissue: +20% Regeneration (level doesn't matter)
[30]Miracle: Heal
[30]Miracle: +15% Recovery
[30]Numina's Convalesence: Heal
[30]Numina's Convalesence: +15% Regen/+10% Recovery
The reason I chose level 30 IOs was for the earliest possible slotting of this set up (since Numina's Convalesence starts at 30).
This gives a total of an addition 114.14% to Regeneration and 27.5% to Recovery. Regen becomes much higher than 3 +3 SOs (and will remain constant from level 30 up) and Recovery is about half that with 3 +3 SOs in Stamina. But, considering that many people do not currently slot End Reductions in their powers once they have Stamina, and that many of the IO sets grant addtional Recovery bonuses and have End Reduction built into them, my guess would be that the average build wouldn't be hurt at all.
Ignoring other set bonuses or slotting, though.. I end up with a total net gain of
+35.24% Regen
One addtional power
and a net loss of
.542/sec Recovery (32.5%)
Simply taking Stamina and adding just 1 [30]Endurance Modification to it would bring Recovery up to 2.808/sec. This means you use no more slots that currently using, and see an increase to both Regen (+35.24% over +3 SOs) and Recovery (+8.45% over +3 SOs), available at level 30.
Curse you and your predisposition to inform people about things I'd been planning to keep to my fiendish powergamery self for a while!
/someone has to be contrary
//don't hurt me
Please try MA arc ID 351455, "Shard Stories: Scavenger's Hunt." Originally created for the Dr. Aeon contest, it explores the wild potential of one of the City's most concept-rich but content-poor settings: the Shadow Shard.
I would also request a brief glossary, too. For example, in some of your slotting, you had health 94% or so and regeneration 12%. I get easily confused by terms. How does regeneration relate to "health" and "recovery"? Probably a stupid question, but I found myself wanting a term list. Max HP was obvious for me, but maybe not for someone else. I guess I felt the write-up was interesting, but I still feel like without a glossary there could be a "layman gap".
Also, maybe a table format of some type would be nice for comparisons of all slottings of 3 vs 6 at a glance would be nice. I guess I'm a bit easily confused but when I looked at the numbers I still thought "So?".
If I could see a table with all of the bonuses for 1 slotted health (33% heal, 0% recgen 0% rec, 0% max hp) next to 6 slotted with all the crazy grind uniques (95.5%, 12% regen, 2.5% rec, 1.88% max hp) in some kind of simple table, that'd be nice. Of course the forums might not support it. But it would make it simpler for me to make the determination on "gee those 5 extra slots look totally worth it" or "that isnt worth the hassle".
Right now, even with the simplification and examples, I'm leaning towards not even worrying with the system because even your simple illustration makes me shy away from the whole system. I can kinda get the whole "2 max IOs is almost as good as 3 SOs" but beyond that I'm not sure I'm following the benefits, really.
Maybe a glossary and side-by-side numbers would help? Or maybe I just stink. 
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
Glossary? I want a program!
I'm gonna look like a real noob here, but i've been 6-slotting stamina on my kat/sr for some time now. Have I been doing this unnecessarily? had I hit a cap? I've done numerous test builds and always, always, i got more out of having 4 slotted stamina than 3, and 5 was always longer lasting attacks than 4, and ultimately 6 slotted gave me more continous end than all. So... help me out here. what's the story? was i only imagining that I had more continous attack time with 6 slotted? any enlightenment/help would be greatly appreciated.
TIA
[ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna look like a real noob here, but i've been 6-slotting stamina on my kat/sr for some time now. Have I been doing this unnecessarily? had I hit a cap? I've done numerous test builds and always, always, i got more out of having 4 slotted stamina than 3, and 5 was always longer lasting attacks than 4, and ultimately 6 slotted gave me more continous end than all. So... help me out here. what's the story? was i only imagining that I had more continous attack time with 6 slotted? any enlightenment/help would be greatly appreciated.
TIA
[/ QUOTE ]
You weren't hitting a cap, but the 4th, 5th and 6th SOs were providing a very diminished bonus compared to the first 3.
Specifically (assuming all SOs are the same level as you):
1st SO: 33.3%
2nd SO: 33.3%
3rd SO: 28.3%
4th SO: 5.05%
5th SO: 5%
6th SO: 5%
[ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna look like a real noob here, but i've been 6-slotting stamina on my kat/sr for some time now. Have I been doing this unnecessarily? had I hit a cap? I've done numerous test builds and always, always, i got more out of having 4 slotted stamina than 3, and 5 was always longer lasting attacks than 4, and ultimately 6 slotted gave me more continous end than all. So... help me out here. what's the story? was i only imagining that I had more continous attack time with 6 slotted? any enlightenment/help would be greatly appreciated.
TIA
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, you get more with more slots in stamina.
No, it's not worth it.
Using +3 SOs:
One = +38.3%
Two = +74%
Three = 97.2%
Four = 103%
Five = 108.7%
Six = 114.5%
In essence, after it goes over 100%, each additional SO only adds 15% as much as it normally would (about 5-6% instead of 38%).
In 99 out of 100 cases you'd get more out of an end reduction in a particularly sapping attack or shield than you would out of that fourth slot.
{QR} I have to say that the change to make people put more than 3-4 slots in things to get full set-bonuses is kinda irritating.
I actually liked the simplification of 'knowing' that 3-4 slots is all I need in most things and maybe only 5-6 in big attacks or powers that have multiple "main" effects like Invincibility and Shadow Fall.
Still here, even after all this time!
[ QUOTE ]
Yep. And why didn't people believe the Devs when they said that ED would diversify things?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because this system came out over a year later instead of when ED hit?
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"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh
[ QUOTE ]
Yep. And why didn't people believe the Devs when they said that ED would diversify things?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because it didn't, and still doesn't?
Oh yeah, seeing twenty heroes all standing around bidding and selling things is real heroic and "diversified"...not.
The only thing worse than devs making bad decisions is the hoard of fanboys and bootlickers that keep cheering them on.
[ QUOTE ]
I have to say that the change to make people put more than 3-4 slots in things to get full set-bonuses is kinda irritating.
[/ QUOTE ]
I basically agree, but looking at the numbers, it seems like you can still continue to do that and operate within the same realm of success as people who use the system. Oh I'm sure there will be some uber combos but I'm personally planning on continuing to use the current simple approach. That will let me avoid grinding, it will let me play naturally, and possibly make some extra cash. Over time, if the new system becomes a little less obfuscated, I can dip into the pool gradually.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
[ QUOTE ]
Glossary? I want a program!
[/ QUOTE ]
Working on it!
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
[ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah, seeing twenty heroes all standing around bidding and selling things is real heroic and "diversified"...not.
[/ QUOTE ]
Aww come on now, it diversifies your leveling speed as you waste time selling/buying
Djeannie's Costume Creator Overhaul Wishlist
Carnie Base
"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh
[ QUOTE ]
It's even harder than that for a Regen. My I9 guide is giving me a headache.
[/ QUOTE ]
As a rule - a literal rule - I don't write power set guides. But I've been scribbling notes on a guide to invention options for super reflexes. I'm not sure if I'm going to release it whole or in part yet, primarily because I'm not sure I can fit it into the forums. If I say it could theoretically be longer than the longest thing I've ever contemplated posting, that might help illustrate the scale of the thing.
The biggest problem: unlike DA, Invuln, and Regen, the most important synergistic invention options come from *outside* the defensive set, which means taking into account non-SR related build issues, like power pools and primary sets. And that, frankly, sucks in more ways than one.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's even harder than that for a Regen. My I9 guide is giving me a headache.
[/ QUOTE ]
As a rule - a literal rule - I don't write power set guides. But I've been scribbling notes on a guide to invention options for super reflexes. I'm not sure if I'm going to release it whole or in part yet, primarily because I'm not sure I can fit it into the forums. If I say it could theoretically be longer than the longest thing I've ever contemplated posting, that might help illustrate the scale of the thing.
The biggest problem: unlike DA, Invuln, and Regen, the most important synergistic invention options come from *outside* the defensive set, which means taking into account non-SR related build issues, like power pools and primary sets. And that, frankly, sucks in more ways than one.
[/ QUOTE ]
I hope that doesn't mean that SR is really up the creek with no paddle. 
I'm kinda hoping that you'll be able to find a way to salvage SR in zone PvP. If anyone can, it's you. I've tried, but every time all I see is a lot of nothing. Well, more like stuff that is okay, but the other guys getting the better toys that completely counter my defences.
Help us Obi Arcana-Kenobi, you're our only hope!
=. .=
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's even harder than that for a Regen. My I9 guide is giving me a headache.
[/ QUOTE ]
As a rule - a literal rule - I don't write power set guides. But I've been scribbling notes on a guide to invention options for super reflexes. I'm not sure if I'm going to release it whole or in part yet, primarily because I'm not sure I can fit it into the forums. If I say it could theoretically be longer than the longest thing I've ever contemplated posting, that might help illustrate the scale of the thing.
The biggest problem: unlike DA, Invuln, and Regen, the most important synergistic invention options come from *outside* the defensive set, which means taking into account non-SR related build issues, like power pools and primary sets. And that, frankly, sucks in more ways than one.
[/ QUOTE ]
I hope that doesn't mean that SR is really up the creek with no paddle. I'm kinda hoping that you'll be able to find a way to salvage SR in zone PvP. If anyone can, it's you. I've tried, but every time all I see is a lot of nothing. Well, more like stuff that is okay, but the other guys getting the better toys that completely counter my defences.
Help us Obi Arcana-Kenobi, you're our only hope!
=. .=
[/ QUOTE ]
The way I've been thinking about organizing the options - because there really isn't a way to show *all* possible options - is to consider "archetypal" options (not in the sense of CoH archetypes, but in the general sense of the word).
For example: if you want to leverage speed, what's the best way to do that with inventions and SR as your secondary? And what's the best way to put that speed to use? If you want to go maximum defense instead, what's the best way to get the best possible defense, with the least cost? And is it credible to run with the limitations you're going to have to incur to get that defense?
Stuff like that. There are some interesting ideas in there. One interesting idea is that DM/SR, a set that is traditionally called a good PvE set but a sucky PvP set, has interesting possibilities, because its one of the best leveragers of speed (among other things).
I think while the options of the other scrapper secondaries are relatively straight forward, if tricky to calculate, SR is going to have to squeeze every last bit of toothpaste out of the tube to really get the same sort of benefits. And I've been testing some really ... unconventional things (example: I bet I'm one of the few people that can tell you what happens when you slot Kinetic Combat: Chance for Knockdown into Crane Kick. Answer: unfortunately, not much: small mag KD + CK's KB = CK's KB, and occasionally just a KD).
I was tempted yesterday to post my half-serious analysis of brawl yesterday, actually, but something came up and distracted me from doing it. Before you laugh: brawl has some interesting surprises in it when you look at slotting it with inventions.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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I'll definitely cut down to 1 or 2 slots in Stamina on my Katana/Regen, but yeah. Best I have so far is 4 in FH and 4 in Health.
Man, and right when I thought slots were no longer premium on him. XD
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