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Right now people put 3 SOs a each power and know it is pretty much maxed out. It is very simple. You don't need tons of math to understand how to maximize an attribute. Whether you should is a different arguement.
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They don't know that, and its not that simple.
Example: Eagle's Claw. 142.64 points of damage, base. 278.15 points of damage with +95% slotting. 420.79 points of damage with build up. Slotting any more makes no sense, right?
Well, 4 +3 SOs would be +103%, and with build up that would be 432.2 points of damage. Most of the time 11.41 points of damage isn't worth much. Except, in this case, it might mean a great deal.
(Health of level 50 minion: 430 points)
I'm not making this up: with my current IO slotting my Eagle's Claw is currently hitting even level targets for about 428.9 points of damage. That's moderately annoying even if I don't fight even level targets often. More generally, against +2 targets there's a particular sequence of attacks I can make that leaves a +2 minion with about 3 points of health left. In actual in-game combat, some damage bonuses have almost no effect, and some have a big effect: its a fairly discontinuous jumpy behavior.
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Complexity is fine for the players who actually enjoy it but if you look at the games that succeed you will find that complexity is not popular. People need an easy path to get to more or less the same result or they will say it is too complicated. The example above shows that the Devs went back on their promise to keep SOs nearly as powerful as IOs and made it so that anyone using SOs will now be 1/2 as powerful as those using IOs. Effectively forcing everyone to not only use IOs but to use complex sets of IOs.
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They never made that promise.
You should know I've been fighting for colloquially simpler (if possibly technically more complex) powers mechanics for quite some time. This was and is a problem prior to the invention system: the invention system only makes it worse.
But some of that is unavoidable, and not even laudably addressable. The game mechanics need to be simple enough so that what a particular power, effect, or enhancement does is simple to express. But it does not, and should not, presume that players shouldn't be expected to exercise good judgement in deciding how to combine them. The effects of individual things should be easy to understand, and they should combine in relatively simple ways. But its perfectly acceptable for there to exist more combinations of things than the average person can or is willing to analyze. More options is always good, even if not everyone can fully explore them.
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Right now people put 3 SOs a each power and know it is pretty much maxed out. It is very simple. You don't need tons of math to understand how to maximize an attribute. Whether you should is a different arguement.
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I see a difference here between understanding the system and merely following conventional wisdom. As far as I know, there is no place in-game that ED is explained. People know not to slot more than 3 SOs in powers because of word-of-mouth and persistent education from people in the community.
Just as "don't slot more than three of the same kind of IO" is conventional wisdom now, "toss each of the three Heal Set uniques into Health" will be conventional wisdom sometime after i9 goes live. Give the popularizers and explainers some time to work, and I think you'll find that IOs aren't the huge hurdle that they seem like now.
Again, I stress the difference between understanding how a system works and being able to use it. I didn't understand how ED worked until two days ago, when I looked Circeus' explanation up. But I knew how to slot with ED in effect. What we need is for people to know how to avoid most of the pitfalls, not for them to be experts in the mechanics.
Scrap
Hmm so 12% x 5 = 60% + another 50% (10%X 5) and we are looking at 110% + regen, then you have the 2 unique IOs for another 45% regen setting us at 155% + regen if we use 5 attack sets that are usually a 10% buff and 5 heal sets at 12%.
155% + regen and 25% +recovery will be great on all my toons, if extremely difficult to get.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
I got a question for this post...again it is similar to do i understand this right?
I decided to respec into 6 slotted health on test. Right now, I have 2 SO, and one Heal IO, so my base health/regen is 99%. I have a Numina Proc in there, add another 15%. Since I also have 5 Sciro...they add 10% each....so that is another 50%.
I have the Numina Proc, if I add another Numina Heal in Health, and then slot 2 Numina again in Healing flames....12% bonus each set
Does the Numina regen bonus stack with that...or have I capped my regen secondary to the 5 Sciro D's? Can I add another 24% regen (to my already killer regen boost now...and it is killer)? Or is the only way to up that regen rate would be the other health procs?
edit: this is a fire tanker, and not alot of power sets in general, allow so many pbaoes. Ws, have multiple pbaoes, but the devs have limited the IO sets that can go in atleast one power. I am looking at the ws now. IA is a pbaoe but only takes stun for example. So it looks like this is anticipated/planned, when they limited some of the pbaoes in the ws.
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I find this rather frightening. This just shows that virtually no casual player will ever be able to figure out how to use this system.
While flexible it is way to complex and not nearly intuitive enough. SOs you could explain to new players in a couple sentences.
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I agree with you. I must admit that the OP was very intriguing.
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IOs new players will have to read a thesis, or more likely find a new game. 
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Some old ones too. That is what saddens me the most.
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As far as I know, there is no place in-game that ED is explained. People know not to slot more than 3 SOs in powers because of word-of-mouth and persistent education from people in the community.
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Well it's not explained anywhere persistant, but it IS explained in the game. In Outbreak when you go through the early cop contacts one of them sends you to a terminal that explains ED essentially. Enough to get a good idea what's going on. But that's consistant with a number of other things taught in the Tutorial but nowhere else. 
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I got a question for this post...again it is similar to do i understand this right?
I decided to respec into 6 slotted health on test. Right now, I have 2 SO, and one Heal IO, so my base health/regen is 99%. I have a Numina Proc in there, add another 15%. Since I also have 5 Sciro...they add 10% each....so that is another 50%.
I have the Numina Proc, if I add another Numina Heal in Health, and then slot 2 Numina again in Healing flames....12% bonus each set
Does the Numina regen bonus stack with that...or have I capped my regen secondary to the 5 Sciro D's? Can I add another 24% regen (to my already killer regen boost now...and it is killer)? Or is the only way to up that regen rate would be the other health procs?
edit: this is a fire tanker, and not alot of power sets in general, allow so many pbaoes. Ws, have multiple pbaoes, but the devs have limited the IO sets that can go in atleast one power. I am looking at the ws now. IA is a pbaoe but only takes stun for example. So it looks like this is anticipated/planned, when they limited some of the pbaoes in the ws.
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If I understand your question correctly, the rules are:
1. You can have up to five set bonuses *of exactly precisely the same type and magnitude*.
This means no matter what sets you slot, and no matter what powers they are in, if you have five of a particular buff, like +10% regen, the sixth one will have no effect. However, this does not affect all *regen* buffs, it specifically affects all +10% regen buffs. If you slot another set that has a +5% regen buff, you can have up to five of those also. As far as the set bonuses are concerned, a +10% regen buff is different from a +5% regen buff. This rule specifically *only* applies to the set bonuses: the bonuses you get for slotting more than one of a particular set into a particular power.
2. Procs and special IOs are handled completely separately from the set bonuses. They have a completely independent limit, totally separate from the set buffs. Some of them are specifically tagged Unique, which means you can only use one of them *anywhere in your build*. Once you slot one of Numina's +regen/+recovery IOs into a power, you cannot slot another one into any power, anywhere, in that character.
If the IO is not specifically tagged Unique, you can have up to five of them in your build, subject to the normal rules for special IOs (specifically, just like any other set IO, you can only have one of each specific one in a particular power: you cannot slot two Luck of the Gambler: +Recharge IOs into the same power, but because its not tagged Unique you can slot more than one into different powers.
All of the Heal specials are tagged Unique, by the way.
So I believe the answer to your question is that you'd get both Numina's set bonuses for having two Numinas in two different powers, plus the bonus of Numina's special proc, plus all five of Scirocco's Dervishes +regen buffs - because the +regen from Numina's set bonus is a different strength from the +regen from Scirocco's Dervish. If Scirocco's Dervish's bonus was +10% just like Numina, you'd be capped to five maximum, even though you had seven total sets with them.
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This is rather ridiculous. I agree that it is a put off to casual or even non-hardcore players. Loot shouldn't be this confusing or game changing.
that is what I was thinking. My regen rate is going to be unreal if I can get the second two Numina.
Thanks Arcanaville.
On paper, and using that color coded paragonwiki page is really kind of mindboggling until you start working it out in the game. Slotting in the game is not that bad. I have copied the paragonwiki pages and just putting numbers in the bonus slot segments. That has helped somewhat.
This new megaslotting health is the bomb! Hang in there folks....this is REALLY good stuff!
lets hope the bat doesn't come back for 10!
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This is rather ridiculous. I agree that it is a put off to casual or even non-hardcore players. Loot shouldn't be this confusing or game changing.
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I don't see how it's all that confusing?
Slot more of the same set into a power, you get bonuses.
How many people do you realistically think will have more than 5 of the same bonus from set bonuses without learning about it? I expect that the initial reaction will be much like prior to discovering 1 Acc / 5 Dmg slotting, and then after that 1 Acc, 1 End, 1 Rchg, 3 Dmg slotting.
It will be a matter of personal preference, experimentation, talking to group members, etc... People will see set bonuses, either because they dropped or because they got curious and went to Wentworths. They'll look at the inventions for higher levels and see the values go up and decide whether or not they might want to make one of those at some point.
Inventions are really not super complex. It's a decent amount to digest all at once, and it's got a TON of options, but for the most part, people don't really need to know all about all of the options to function, or even to function well. I mean, a character who slots SOs is not going to be significantly weaker than someone who only slots single aspect IOs. Only a character who has a many set bonuses will have advantages, but most of them are not going to be game changing (The recovery bonuses in some special enhancements are the exception) simply because of the values attached to the bonuses.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
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I find this rather frightening. This just shows that virtually no casual player will ever be able to figure out how to use this system.
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Well, there are two types of "casual players".
One, like me, doesn't get much play time but wants to maximize capabilities with the few characters they have. I'll be putting some time into studying this, and at worst I'll read guides written by people who put even more time in to look for ideas. I expect to get out of it what time I put into it; I'm sure others will be better optimizers, but I think I should be able to gain some significant benefits at least.
The other type, like a couple of my friends and, I suspect a lot of the people who aren't on these forums, actually may have more play time but aren't really interested in guides, or maximizing efficiency, or anything like that. They like to play for the concepts, the eye candy, teaming with others, soloing tough missions. . . They'll hear about or figure out a few inventions, put them in, and be happy. The game isn't so tough that they are going to suffer unduly because they aren't twinked out.
You are describing a "casual player" who is desparately unhappy if they aren't optimized, but *also* doesn't want to put any time into learning the system to do it. I haven't actually seen a lot of overlap between those two behaviors, other than from a few forum whiners (which I don't consider you, by the way, you bring up a very valid concern, this system is complex).
If IOs bring such great performance differences that in the average PvE mission someone is feeling completely overshadowed by another similar character, it would be a problem. The devs say they are trying to avoid that issue, hopefully they will succeed. From what I'm reading so far, I think performance in missions will continue to be dominated by (1) player skill and (2) character build (power choices, general slotting), over IO use.
I will min/max the heckipoos out of my toons, given the correct information.
Fortuneately/unfortuneately, the information I can use at this point is sparse and undeveloped. This guide is the KEY to what I know I can do with some of my toons, if only I can figure out what. (I knew about the Health stuff, though not that detailed).
The SECOND someone sits down and puts IOs in a ToonPlanner I'm gonna be in heaven. I'll spend HOURS figuring out max End recovery, HP recovery, global recharges and procs and secondary effects until I feel that I'm at a sweet spot for effectiveness.
Then I'll make me a nice shopping list, and go a-killin'. I'll craft till I'm blue in the face, buy what I HAVE to, and in the end, I'll be back to I3 levels in my mind (Look at the numbers in the OP, that's DAMNED close to Regen's glory days using Regen slots if done right).
After all that, I'll quickly shelve that toon, and bring out the next one. and the next, and the next, and the next.
Then, sometime next year, I'll have finished with the 5 or 6 toons I actually care about and move on to other obsessions in the game, like the I13 content (can't wait to see what Issue 13 will do to the game, I hope it comes out on a Friday the 13th just to make it all the more hokey).
The only real negative thing I see this doing to me as a casual player (maybe 1-2 hours a day) is that I'll stop playing all my alts as much and focus on anything above 30. At which point, having my DM/FA Brute completely unstoppable and deadly to behold, I'll think about making other toons using the I12 AT/Powersets/whatever comes out till then.
I still have a level 10 AR/EM Blaster and a Sonic/Devices Blaster from when those went live. My PB is still 10, my WS is a hair better, I just can't get away from the 6 or so toons I made during prelaunch. I'm funny like that.
I don't think the casual player who doesn't read the boards will be too affected by this, but I do think that it'll be a SLIGHT advantage for those of us who do. There's no UBERENHANCEMENTOFDEATH!!! in this system, so that should help the balance a bit, and other than extreem cases of cheese the bonuses really AREN'T that great. 2.5% resist to a 100 point damage burst is only 2.5 points absorbed. Even stacking that's not so bad, and they'll suffer for having so many sets slotted.
As pointed out already, the key is to mix SO's, IO's and HO's to get maximum effect. Not all of one type.
So far as I can tell you can, with 6 slotted health and 5 attack set bonuses, only get to (5 x 12%)+ (5 x 10%) + 45%( uniques) + 80% (health's own buff) for 235% + regen, not counting any kind of +HP bonuses.
235% is like 1 slotted Integration or a bit better than 3 slotted Rooted.
This is no where near old school regen that had some thing like 2000% +regen when Instant Healing was a toggle.
235% is very very nice, and so is the accompaning 25%-30% +recovery though.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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235% is like 1 slotted Integration or a bit better than 3 slotted Rooted.
This is no where near old school regen that had some thing like 2000% +regen when Instant Healing was a toggle.
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It's not game-breaking (a regen scrapper on Live today with 3-slotted, SOed Fast Healing and Health has a native regen buff of +224.825%), but it sure is intriguing. This is where I think a lot of the fun of set bonuses lies - in allowing builds to overcome some of their inherent weaknesses. Fire/fire tanks and brutes are a good example, because IOs allow them to overcome two of their most griped-about defects: lack of inherent knockback protection and lack of defense. This +235% regen will be excellent if layered on top of fiery aura's respectable resistances, and even better if further augmented with pool powers. Combined with the recent Healing Flames buff, I expect fire tankers to acquire a whiff of regen scrapping. It's nothing like regen levels of recovery, but then regen scrappers get nothing like fiery levels of resistance 
For what it's worth, my next slotting example will be melee attacks, then I may toss out an example of a build to show how you can stack set bonuses for real, powerful, passive and free (endurance-wise) buffs. I expect to use a fire/fire tank as the build template, mainly because I've done most of the thought work and now it's just a matter of writing it up. From there I can do a toggle +res shield example exercise, click self heals, and PBAoEs without much trouble.
Of course, I've been on a business trip all week and so haven't had much time to do any writing. Tomorrow on the plane ride home, if the person in front of me doesn't recline.
Scrap
By the way, the best regen buff I've been able to get for my fire/fire tank without seriously compromising her performance is +213.2%. This is an AE, Tough, Burn and former-Acrobatics tank, btw. Her single target attacks have been gutted to fully slot her AEs (6 slotted Burn!). So her ability to solo bosses and kill single targets in general is reduced, but her AE efficacy is only increased, and her overall defense is dramatically increased. It's a good example of how you can aim to maximize set bonuses but also have to pay the price of extreme specialization. Any powersets with many similar powers can do this, some more effectively than others (SR comes to mind as a less potent example).
Scrap
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I find this rather frightening. This just shows that virtually no casual player will ever be able to figure out how to use this system.
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Nah. All it shows is that, just like now, casual players will have trouble working out the most efficient or the mathematically 'best' way of slotting without doing some research.
Just give it a few weeks for the number crunchers to experiment and post their guides. We'll be right back to where we are now, with the majority of people following the herd and doing what's recommended while a brave few try and do things themselves.
Hey Scrap,
Acutally doing this and slotting is not that bad..it is just much more confusing on paper. You kinda have to decide which sets have the best benefits you are looking for.
The casual players will pick this up, if by anything, word of mouth in the game.
Ball parking the fire tankers...
I am running 5 Sciro...50%
Health Numina Heal, Miracle Heal, IO heal and then the Numina proc....100 pluse the 2 Num @ 12% , plus Proc 15%? then I need the other two Health Pocs....one should add 25%
Numina Heal/end Numina for 12% in HF
then slotting 2 Devastions, for another 24% in Fire Blast and in char (just started slotting those two)
Is that how you did it? Ball parking, says that is pretty close.
Please throw some brain power behind the khelds!
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Please throw some brain power behind the khelds!
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I think that will be my next project after I do my fire tank write-up, which should appear some time tomorrow.
Incidentally, I did my Example IO slotting: Melee Attacks miniguide, but I posted it in the Inventions forum instead of here, since Ex Libris seemed to want us to move discussions there. But now that I'm watching both boards, it seems like this one is still where everything is happening. Oh, well
Scrap
Great. I would love to see another post. Maybe a different approach.
If Ex wants us somewhere else, noted.
I went from fire tanker to ws....lol. It was almost mind boggling what you can do to that toon.
Looking forward to another perspective!
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Set IO slotting #3, combination:
1 Miracle 15% recovery global IO,
1 Regenerative Tissue +25% regeneration global IO,
1 Numina's Convalescence +20% regen, +10% recovery global IO
heal: +0%
This employs all of the unique Heal set IOs. The total benefit is an 85% regeneration buff (8.7% better than SO slotting) and a 25% recovery buff (equal to unslotted Stamina). This is an interesting middle road, although it's worth noting that it's not far different from the recovery slotting above: about 10% better regen and 10% worse recovery. This is a small example of how set bonuses can start to mitigate otherwise
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought you were only able to slot 1 unique IO in your character?
Or is it 1 unique from each set in your character?
Because I was thinking of slotting my regen scrapper as follows:
Health:
1 Numina's Convalescence +20% regen, +10% recovery
1 Numina's Convalesence: Healing
1 Doctored Wounds: Healing
Set Bonus: +12% Regen from Numina's Convalesence
Fast Healing:
1 Numina's Convalesence: Healing/Endurance
1 Numina's Convalesence: Healing
1 Doctored Wounds: Healing
Set Bonus: +12% Regen from Numina's Convalesence
Intergration:
1 Numina's Convalesence: Healing/Endurance
1 Numina's Convalesence: Healing
1 Doctored Wounds: Healing
Set Bonus: +12% Regen from Numina's Convalesence
Now does the set bonuses stack from each power? Or does the bonus only apply once?
Im not good at math but from your previous numbers I think Intergration and Fast Healing would work better this way rather then using 3 Heal IOs.
If Im wrong someone please let me know I would appreciate it a lot.
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The set bonus will stack (up to 5 times).
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Unique means one copy of a particular "unique IO" per character. Or, as you put it, "one Unique per set".
You are not, however (thankfully!) limited to only one Unique IO per character (that would suck). That is, you are allowed to slot both Numina's Convalescence and, say, a +Stealth IO (which are both classified as "unique") somewhere on your character.
Currently: 50s (5), 40s (3), 30s (5)
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Would best place to put numinas 20%/10% super io i like to call.. Intergration and should I six slott itergration than my normal three SO slot. would it be that much greater and worth it ?
The best place for the Numina IO is in an auto power, not in a toggle power.
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Right now people put 3 SOs a each power and know it is pretty much maxed out. It is very simple. You don't need tons of math to understand how to maximize an attribute. Whether you should is a different arguement.
With this they will never be able to figure out what to do except to have someone tell them. And different people will tell them different things about stacking, they will get disgusted and quit.
Complexity is fine for the players who actually enjoy it but if you look at the games that succeed you will find that complexity is not popular. People need an easy path to get to more or less the same result or they will say it is too complicated. The example above shows that the Devs went back on their promise to keep SOs nearly as powerful as IOs and made it so that anyone using SOs will now be 1/2 as powerful as those using IOs. Effectively forcing everyone to not only use IOs but to use complex sets of IOs.
The fact is in the current game most of the players won't even spend the time to learn how to get the best use out of their powers, much less spend an extended amount of time to get the most use of enhancements. This will end up being FOTD builds for everyone in self defense.
I like complex strategy games but I am getting fed up with IOs myself. Enhancements are not supposed to be the point of the game. There is a difference between complexity which serves the game and complexity which is just complex.
Of course you can tell people to avoid them until they understand the game better but there will be lots of people argueing not to, making everything EVEN MORE confusing for new players.
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.