Consolidated Thread: Statesman's Task Force
By
abnormal_joe,
Posted on: 2007-04-03 08:09 in The Market and Inventions
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All blaster STF anyone???
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I doubt this is possible.
We had a team last night that you would think would wipe this TF off the map.
1 Invul Tank
1 Dark Def
2 Kin def
1 Grav troller
1 Kin troller
2 scrappers
We ran through with NO deaths up until recluse and the first crack at GW. we gave up on recluse after an hour of making it work.
He could 2 shot the tank.
so all blaster team. NO WAY! it couldn't happen. None of you could take the damage he would give out.
On Champion as part of Tanker Tuesday, an all-Tanker STF was attempted, but couldn't get past Ghost Widow.
@Demobot
Also on Steam
Between Test and Live I've been on the STF 6 times now. All 6 have failed. 2 due to people dropping and 4 due to 1 AV, Mako. This last attempt on Live is the one that really points out the design flaw of this encounter.
We had a team of 8. 4 Blasters, 1 Scrapper, and 3 Defenders (Rad/Emp, FF/Energy, FF/Dark).
Everything up to the point of encountering the 4 AVs in the last mission was fine. The team was able to handle the 3 other AVs. Over the course of 2 nights the team spent 6 hours on just that last mission. The first night we took out the other 3 AVs but after 60 minutes of a stalemate against Mako we were at the point we had to stop for the evening. The next night we came back, restocked INSP, and then took out the 3 other AVs again. That left just Mako to deal with.
The next 4 hours were spent trying to overcome Mako. An hour was spent trying to overcome his Unstoppable+Elude powers. We could not bring him below 25% health. At that point we pulled back so 5 of us could go to BB to get Shivans and restock on INSP. That took a little less than an hour. We then came back to face Mako again. The last battle went on for right around 1 full hour.
That last battle saw the team use 100+ INSP, 2 full recycles of Geas (and that has a 25 minute recycle time), 15+ Shivans, and at least 4 other Temp Powers. Throughout the fight Mako was no lower than 25% health. Nothing we tried would break past that barrier. At the end of the hour Mako ended up getting through all of our defenses in a quick series of lucky attacks resulting in a team wipe. At that point we gave up.
The team was having fun up to the point we had to face Mako. From that point it was like getting slapped in the face. 8 customers went away from this experience mad and dissatisfied.
Positron and company, you need to look at the data coming back off this TF. There is something seriously wrong with that AV. If 8 characters can spend that much time and resources trying to overcome 1 AV without success there is a serious balance issue.
Crey Threat Assessment: Bayne
Virtueverse: Bayne
The Defenders of Paragon
I failed again last night, I think it is best they go back to being 53s. I know we had changes to lower there resistance to debuffs but against 54s that does nothing due to the purple patch. We could not pull the AVs seperate, usually 2 or all would come. I was able to tell one of the mind trollers to sleep the extra AVs, suprisingly it worked well but the freaking shivans would switch to aggro on the AV that was sleeping.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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I know we had changes to lower there resistance to debuffs but against 54s that does nothing due to the purple patch.
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The big drop-off on efficacy is at +6 iirc, not +4. I believe it's a linear progression up to +5, at which point there's a big jump.
I'm of neutral opinion on Mako. My group beat him last night with a team of 6, but we had the right powers for it. Three of us had Tactics. Our Empath's Fortitude had 3x ToHit. Two of us had Geas (Tank/Controller though), and the two Blasters had their usual Aim buffs. None of that group of four AVs gave us any real trouble, not even GW because I (the tank) was the only one in melee with her.
The STF is meant to be difficult, though. With the rewards it offers in return for a series of five missions, it can't be as easy as the other TFs. While I have mixed feelings about having to pay close attention to the composition of the team, it's something I tend to do anyway. You go into it knowing that the last few challenges in this TF do have certain requirements. You must have a way to hit an AV with super-high defense. You must have a tank or tank+buffer or Phantom Army combo that can withstand LR's punishment. You must have a way to deal with Ghost Widow. You should have enough ranged or flying damage to deal with the Flier. You must have enough damage to kill all of the Thorn Tree vines quickly ... and so on.
Some people (myself included) who have never failed a TF before are discovering that it's possible to fail the STF, so it's a bit of a shock for all of us. It's more like a mini-Hami raid in terms of having what you need available, but for this particular TF I think that's reasonable. "Because people are failing" isn't by itself reason enough to nerf them, though I'm certainly no stranger to frustration.
Please try MA arc ID 351455, "Shard Stories: Scavenger's Hunt." Originally created for the Dr. Aeon contest, it explores the wild potential of one of the City's most concept-rich but content-poor settings: the Shadow Shard.
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I'm of neutral opinion on Mako. My group beat him last night with a team of 6, but we had the right powers for it. Three of us had Tactics. Our Empath's Fortitude had 3x ToHit. Two of us had Geas (Tank/Controller though), and the two Blasters had their usual Aim buffs.
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In the group I described a couple posts back we had 3 Tactics, 3 uses of Geas (twice in one fight too), the 4 Blasters had their Aim, 1 Defender had Aim, and a Defender Rad Debuff going. Then added to that were the 15+ Shivans (about 4 out at any given time) and all the ACC INSP we were carrying. We still couldn't take Mako below 25% health.
Crey Threat Assessment: Bayne
Virtueverse: Bayne
The Defenders of Paragon
Sadly my first experience in the STF was a failure as well.
All the missions prior to the last went fine. They were challenging and fun. But when we came to the last mission it was a major cockblock. I will probably not do this TF again mainly for the fact that a) if it was designed around having a specific team set up and b) designed around having to use nukes and shivans I'm not interested in it or what rewards it offers cause nuke/shivan farming is not something I enjoy and not being able to team with people because they arent one of the "chosen" ATs for the STF really turns me off.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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In the group I described a couple posts back we had 3 Tactics, 3 uses of Geas (twice in one fight too), the 4 Blasters had their Aim, 1 Defender had Aim, and a Defender Rad Debuff going. Then added to that were the 15+ Shivans (about 4 out at any given time) and all the ACC INSP we were carrying. We still couldn't take Mako below 25% health.
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Hmm. Did Mako just stand there and take it, or did he run around a lot? How much regen debuff did you have, and were the regen-debuffing Kin/Rad/Dark characters able to hit him consistently with LR, Trans, etc?
Please try MA arc ID 351455, "Shard Stories: Scavenger's Hunt." Originally created for the Dr. Aeon contest, it explores the wild potential of one of the City's most concept-rich but content-poor settings: the Shadow Shard.
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nuke/shivan farming is not something I enjoy and not being able to team with people because they arent one of the "chosen" ATs for the STF really turns me off.
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Same, on the first. As a general rule, I hate the hassle of getting nukes from Warburg and I almost never have them. I got used to carrying Shivans back during the Issue 7 AV Regen debacle, because they were so useful. The way the STF is designed, I wouldn't say that Shivans are more necessary than say ... a tray full of purple inspirations, but like the latter they can help fill some capability gaps.
It isn't accurate to say that the STF seems designed for "chosen" ATs unless you consider every AT on the hero side "chosen." I've seen it finished by teams with a Stone tank, an Inv tank, and with no tank. I've seen it finished by many different flavors of buff, debuff, and damage. I think it's more correct to say that a successful STF requires a certain core set of team capabilities. There's a lot of complex interactions between what you do and don't have, but for most teams the list includes ...
1. Aggro control: you'll need a tank or equivalent to maintain the attention of the Grandville AVs and Aeon. In most cases, a tank should have Taunt. Gauntlet generally can't reliably keep the aggro of an aggressive +4 AV. Taunt not slotted for duration will tend to expire and lose Ghost Widow's aggro when she Black Holes the tank.
2. Buffing/Debuffing: this may include enough CM/ID/Clarity to withstand Ghost Widow's Soul Storm, enough To-Hit to hit Mako through his Elude, enough Defense to mitigate Ghost Widow's Dark Regen, enough Regen/Res Debuff and Damage to overcome +4 AV regen, and so on. There's more psionic damage and unusual mezzes than heroes are used to facing.
3. Damage: an obvious necessity, but a damage-light team that relies heavily on debuffs may have a hard time in the Thorn Tree room. Scrappers will have an easier time in that room than Blasters because of the creeper traps and other Thorn Tree attacks.
4. Shortcuts: invisibility and recall ability are incredibly useful, especially (but not only) on the Thorn Tree map.
5. Keep-away/Denial: you must have some way of dealing with the repairmen on LR's towers. A team low on aoes, knockback/down powers, or other location-type controls may find themselves spending an incredibly long time on each tower. Meanwhile, the Flier is likely to respawn and interfere.
There are various ways to make up for any given team's weaknesses. PA can sub for a tank. Vengeance, Shivans, and (ouch) Warburg nukes are all useful. Trays full of purples can solve the problem of Ghost Widow's healing. If anything, the STF favors a team well-balanced in terms of ATs, except for certain super-specialized teams. It slightly favors some PvE builds over PvP builds. It gives in some ways (Scrappers less vulnerable to Thorn Tree room attacks) and takes away in others (Scrappers more liable to Ghost Widow's heal). Niche powers like Group Fly are great to have versus the Flier. AV pulling tends to work best if you have the ability to invis/stealth your sniper.
And so on. The STF is different from the other hero-side TFs. You can brute force your way through pretty much any FP TF to the AV stomp at the end, but success in the STF is less guaranteed. It is important and necessary to examine the capabilities of your team when starting an STF. If you're low on damage, or buffing, or whatever, you will have to find a way to compensate because there are specific challenges with those needs, but at the same time there are enough ways to compensate that success is feasible. It can be finished without a tank or an empath (I know this from experience). Some parts of the TF will be more difficult as a result, though.
I really (really!) am sympathetic to Mako, GW, and LR being serious obstacles, but it's more appropriate for this particular TF than any other.
Last night, my six-man team (1x Tank, 1x Defender, 2x Controller, 2x Blaster, 2x disconnects) beat Mako, GW, and LR without Shivans or Nukes. Well, that's not quite true. I did drop a Shivan on LR, but then the Flier interfered. Recluse was back to 100% health and my Shivan expired before we finished destroying the Flier, so I might as well have not used the Shivan. So yes, I can attest that it can be done.
Please try MA arc ID 351455, "Shard Stories: Scavenger's Hunt." Originally created for the Dr. Aeon contest, it explores the wild potential of one of the City's most concept-rich but content-poor settings: the Shadow Shard.
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In the group I described a couple posts back we had 3 Tactics, 3 uses of Geas (twice in one fight too), the 4 Blasters had their Aim, 1 Defender had Aim, and a Defender Rad Debuff going. Then added to that were the 15+ Shivans (about 4 out at any given time) and all the ACC INSP we were carrying. We still couldn't take Mako below 25% health.
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Hmm. Did Mako just stand there and take it, or did he run around a lot? How much regen debuff did you have, and were the regen-debuffing Kin/Rad/Dark characters able to hit him consistently with LR, Trans, etc?
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For the majority of the fight he stayed confined to the small alley. A couple of times he would jump up above us or run around a little in the local area, but he always came back to the location. Keep in mind that 7 of the 8 team members were fighting him with ranged attacks so we didn't really have to chase him down much.
There was 1 Rad Defender. I didn't get a good sense from her a quantified amount of resistance or misses from the debuffs she was doing.
The FF/Dark Defender was able to hit with Tenebrous Tentacles about half of the time I think. Same for his other powers.
Crey Threat Assessment: Bayne
Virtueverse: Bayne
The Defenders of Paragon
We finally beat this monster last night. Actually to be fair we crushed it. Our team was 4 controllers, 2 blasters, 1 peace bringer, and a tank.
A few things we found.
* Force bubble (the one power most FF's hate) made this possible. I really believe we wouldnt have been able to do this without this power.
*O2 boost was a big help as well. Our tank kept getting his endurance drained on previous runs. Once I started spamming O2 boost we could protect him from that in addition to having some healing going his way.
*Ventrillo or something like it isn't 100% needed but god does it make this mission easier.
In the last mission our pull got 3 of the 4 sig villains (mako, sirocco, black scorp). Our peace bringer dwarfed up and tanked black scorp for us while our stone tank taunted the other two to the other end of the platform.... after black fell our PB went got us sirocco to take down, finally the tank rejoined us with mako in tow and we took him out. We built our team with Ghost widow in mind which is why no scrappers (sorry my scrapper friends but you guys are getting the shaft on this TF) we slowed and immobilized GW while our tank taunted from ranged and we blasted her. The flier has to be the easiest part of the entire TF.
Finally for Recluse we used a combination of tactics I got from the forums and an idea I had. We had our tank hug one side of the red tower while the rest of the team went on the other side. Our FF'r put up dispersion and force bubble and we went to work on the tower. All of us (by the way this is the idea I got from the forums) being so close allowed us to keep everyone buffed and force bubble kept everything other than Recluse away from the tower. Of course we killed repairmen as needed and once red went down we moved to yellow with the same plan. At some point a repairman came out and fixed the red tower right after we destroyed the yellow one. At that point I stayed at the yellow location with hurricane up and the rest of the team went back to red and took it down than green. Once we started fighting Recluse we got him down to low health and bam he summoned every boss he has on the payroll.... Team wipe
We dust our selves off and go back to start the fight again this time I have an idea what if we pull recluse to the ledge on the tower where the base portal normally is? We get him up there right on the edge (that makes a diff and you'll see why in a sec) our bubbler once again turns on force bubble I turn on hurricane and we start fighting recluse again. This time when he spawns his many many bosses force bubble and hurricane tosses them right off the side of the tower and away from us allowing us to fight LR without him getting help from the flier or his summons.
No nukes or shivians were used and generally after much trial and error IMHO the best way to put a team together (again my opinion there are many other options) for this TF is (seriously don't take this as me telling you it can't be done without this set up) has below:
Tank (prefer stone armor but other types may work)
Controller
Controller
Defender
Defender
Blaster
Blaster
Blaster
We did have some flexibility with the controllers/defenders as they are somewhat interchangeable. Also Blasters, Peace Bringers and War Shades can also also swapped in and out. Last but not least at most the TF can only have two melee toons one of which will of course be the tank so we can take one scrapper in place of a blaster but sadly it doesn't appear to be able to be beaten with more than two melee (we can do two tanks or tank and scrapper) AT's. The main reason for such a specific team build is to counter the various AV's you encounter... Ghost Widow for example must be fought at range if anyone stays in melee range with her she is able use a massive heal on herself. For Mako you need a ton of debuffs to regen and defense in order to beat him as he runs nearly perma elude and has an incredible regen rate.
"I think I'm cute. I've got gold medals.
I've got the moves that make them all tap out.
The Angle Slam, the Ankle Lock.
Marty Jannetty...still can't walk.
I'm just the sexy Kurt.
I'll make your ankle hurt.
I'm just the sexy Kurt.
I'll make your ankle hurt."
Kurt Angle
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the best way to put a team together for this TF is below:
Tank (prefer stone armor but other types may work)
Controller
Controller
Defender
Defender
Blaster
Blaster
Blaster
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For all that is holy, please don't turn the STF into the RSF where you have to give freaking pity spots. Don't perpetuate this nonsense that you have to have a perfect team to win. YOU DON'T.
You don't need that team setup. My successful STF didn't have a tank, didn't have a rad, had only one blaster, and three *REGEN* scrappers (you know, the ones that can't survive more than 2 big hits from these AVs.)
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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the best way to put a team together for this TF is below:
Tank (prefer stone armor but other types may work)
Controller
Controller
Defender
Defender
Blaster
Blaster
Blaster
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For all that is holy, please don't turn the STF into the RSF where you have to give freaking pity spots. Don't perpetuate this nonsense that you have to have a perfect team to win. YOU DON'T.
You don't need that team setup. My successful STF didn't have a tank, didn't have a rad, had only one blaster, and three *REGEN* scrappers (you know, the ones that can't survive more than 2 big hits from these AVs.)
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Not saying it can't be done other ways but almost everyday this week we tried with various setups and usually could get to the final mission where the unique abilities of the last 5 AV's (ok lets keep it real mako, Ghost Widow, and Recluse + towers) stopped us. We found this set up the best way for us to go and use the tactics we had. Others AT's and powersets mixed in would have changed those tactics and likely our team build. I am so not trying to be the person who has people not allowing scrappers to join their team just giving my opinion on what works really well.
"I think I'm cute. I've got gold medals.
I've got the moves that make them all tap out.
The Angle Slam, the Ankle Lock.
Marty Jannetty...still can't walk.
I'm just the sexy Kurt.
I'll make your ankle hurt.
I'm just the sexy Kurt.
I'll make your ankle hurt."
Kurt Angle
That's how the RSF exclusionary strategies started out, people giving their opinions on what works really well.
People see "this works," and stop thinking, "well, maybe this will work, too?"
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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So do you suggest that nobody share their opinion or tactics if it doesn't include each AT?
"I think I'm cute. I've got gold medals.
I've got the moves that make them all tap out.
The Angle Slam, the Ankle Lock.
Marty Jannetty...still can't walk.
I'm just the sexy Kurt.
I'll make your ankle hurt.
I'm just the sexy Kurt.
I'll make your ankle hurt."
Kurt Angle
I suggest that people don't make comments that include "this is what I think is the best team to beat the STF." Because while it may be the best team, it doesn't matter, because unless your team makeup is such that you can't outdamage their regen, it doesn't matter what kind of teammates you have.
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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ehhh we agree to disagree. I do get your point and as the proud owner of a lvl 50 ice/ice dom that only once got a pity spot on a RSF I know the pain of not getting an invite based soley on your AT.
That said I do believe that since the TF is so new we (the community at large) should be sharing as many team builds and tactics as possible. In fact my hope would be someone looks at how we did it and refines it even more. Adding or removing AT's powersets as they see fit to make this work for them.
"I think I'm cute. I've got gold medals.
I've got the moves that make them all tap out.
The Angle Slam, the Ankle Lock.
Marty Jannetty...still can't walk.
I'm just the sexy Kurt.
I'll make your ankle hurt.
I'm just the sexy Kurt.
I'll make your ankle hurt."
Kurt Angle
Feel free to say, "My team that succeeded was this, this, and this."
Do not say, "This is what I think you should have to win."
Because that is not helpful at all to those people who DO NOT HAVE those winners.
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
|
[ QUOTE ]
No nukes or shivians were used and generally after much trial and error IMHO the best way to put a team together (again my opinion there are many other options) for this TF is (seriously don't take this as me telling you it can't be done without this set up) has below:
Tank (prefer stone armor but other types may work)
Controller
Controller
Defender
Defender
Blaster
Blaster
Blaster
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there you go edited... for your approval....LMAO
"I think I'm cute. I've got gold medals.
I've got the moves that make them all tap out.
The Angle Slam, the Ankle Lock.
Marty Jannetty...still can't walk.
I'm just the sexy Kurt.
I'll make your ankle hurt.
I'm just the sexy Kurt.
I'll make your ankle hurt."
Kurt Angle
Nice job at being condescending.
My statement stands though, I personally think you should take that entire part out. *shrugs* Because that's how the RSF exclusions started.
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
|
I'm sorry I totally admit I am a tad cranky since I was up till 4am doing freaking positron last night than got up for for work at 8:30. SO I do apologize if I am being anything other than civil.
As I said before I understand where your coming from but I disagree. There are more than enough opinions and team builds out on the forums that are beating this thing (just read a post with 5 scrappers that did it and antoher post with 1 tank and 7 controllers) so I just can't see how providing the method we used to do the TF will cause any AT to be excluded going foward.
"I think I'm cute. I've got gold medals.
I've got the moves that make them all tap out.
The Angle Slam, the Ankle Lock.
Marty Jannetty...still can't walk.
I'm just the sexy Kurt.
I'll make your ankle hurt.
I'm just the sexy Kurt.
I'll make your ankle hurt."
Kurt Angle
One tactic we had to separate one AV from the rest was to first try to pull one and pull that one all the way to boat for two reasons. One, if you died you were right back in the battle in a matter of seconds. Two, we were hoping for some Longbow help. (They did help one time and the ship guns fired on Mako, but the guns lost interest or ran out of bullets. :P) Anyway, if we had more then one AV we would have some brave soul strip the other unwanted AVs and pull them all the way back to their starting points and sacrifice themselves and take a hospital ride back the boat.
We were successful with this tactic for 3 out of the 4 AVs but did not have the right team make up to on GW. She was a total pain in the ever loving [censored]. I would have to agree with some that dropping the level of the AVs down just one level might help a lot. It is almost ridiculous to say that this TFs level range is 45-50. IMHO there is no way a team of anything less then lvl 50 heroes or 4 50s with 4 sidekicks can complete this task force.
<QR>
Just read something in another thread and wanted to ask it here too.
Someone mentioned that possibly the blue tower is tied to LR's summoning of the EBs?
Our debuff heavy tankless team (1 rad defender, 2 rad trollers and a myself on a /storm troller) eventually gave up on the TF since we could not come up with a strategy for dealing with the huge wave of EBs that he summoned.
I've seen some people describe huge waves of EBs while others say it was simply a matter of controlling them. For those of you able to control the EBs, did you take out the blue tower?
My Characters
We did take out the blue tower and he still summoned help however since we had him up on the tower ledge with force bubble and hurricane running all his spawns fell to the ground where they couldn't touch us. I didn't notice if he summoned less with the blue tower down... next time we run it I will fly down and see how many are on the ground below.
"I think I'm cute. I've got gold medals.
I've got the moves that make them all tap out.
The Angle Slam, the Ankle Lock.
Marty Jannetty...still can't walk.
I'm just the sexy Kurt.
I'll make your ankle hurt.
I'm just the sexy Kurt.
I'll make your ankle hurt."
Kurt Angle
Is freezing rain still causing Mako to run?
If I've done my math correctly (please someone correct me if I'm wrong) tornado 3 slotted for defense debuff will bring a 24% debuff which doesn't even bring it to the base of freezing rain. Would be nice if I could use them both together on him.
My Characters