Absolutely correct, Korith, except for a few exceptions
1) the 50s who don't care
2) the 50's who will refuse to "dirty their play style" with PLing
3) the 50s who actually want level 20-30 sets (but they can just stop the PL early)
4) the people who don't have an extra slot on their server, and refuse to open a second account
The saddest thing is that if the complaints actually get the Devs to provide a repeatable manner in which to obtain Pool B recipes, the same people who complained now will then complain that some one else is farming them, except of course, for those who are complaining in an attempt to preemptively assist their own farming enterprise.
If it were a third alternative (to doing story arcs and the yet unknown alternate method), and one that could only be claimed within the same timeframe as any "solution" to the Pool B problem, then I am fine with that.
But from the reasoning provided, the developers want to reward the time it takes to do a story arc. Given that can range anywhere between 1-6 hours for level 20+ arcs (depending on AT/Level/Arc/Team size), it probably shouldn't be more than once a day. Before anyone wants to jump on me for that timeframe, I feel the exact same way about any story arc reward alternative.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
[ QUOTE ]
I want a '57 Chevy. GM decided they wanted to limit the availablility of '57 Chevies by stopping production. I now have to decide if my desire for a '57 Chevy can overcome the financial burden of obtaining one.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except Chevy decides to give a chance to win a '57 Chevy for free to anyone throwing a birthday party. As long as they are under 50. And all the parties are held around the same day. So.. if you are 50+ you have to buy the car. If you decide to attend someone elses party this year you lose out on a chance to win one.
That is the problem with pool B.
It is not just a 50 problem but anyone who likes being on large fast moving teams. Or anyone that just likes being support. Just because it isn't your play style doesn't mean it isn't viable. And as long as it is a viable playstyle then it shouldn't be punished.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Question: Currently, cashing in 6000 bounty in Siren's Call produces the same option menu as completing a story arc. Is there any chance we could have Siren's bounty as an alternative for Pool B recipes?
[/ QUOTE ]
No PVP solution to a PVE problem, please.
Especially since the people that are going to have the IOs no matter what it takes will be the hardcore PVPers.
I already detest the amount of PVP baiting that is already in the game, and that is the only thing this sort of suggestion will do: make more bait for the hardcore PVPer.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not disagreeing with you here.
I've earned a grand total of...2 SO's through SC PVP myself. The similarity in the menu is uncanny - and if there's some sort of code sharing between one menu and the other, there's the off-chance of story arc inventions leaking into the PVP rewards menu.
Probably won't happen - but something to watch out for.
[/ QUOTE ]
My whole issue with PVP or PVE is twofold...
1 ) If a PVP zone will get you a IO or a drop after 2 hours of gameplay and a player take 8-9 hours to complete the Story arch, who comes out ahead? (besides if you know those in the zone you can "friend bounty" all day long and get boatloads)
2 ) Story arch's are non repeatable. PVP zones you can live in and continually get the drops.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Question: Currently, cashing in 6000 bounty in Siren's Call produces the same option menu as completing a story arc. Is there any chance we could have Siren's bounty as an alternative for Pool B recipes?
[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds good to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
And sounds bad to everyone who doesn't like pvp.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which makes no sense to me.
So I play PvE and I get it from arcs. He plays PvP and gets it from bounties. So what?
Perhaps those who oppose don't know how the bounty system works in Sirens? Or I having only done one bounty am not seeing how it would be a PvP exploit?
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, as stated above, the proposal suggests this would be a "Fix" to the lack of ability to get Pool B drops from Story Arcs.
As such, that is a BAD IDEA. Knowing the developers, they'll go, "Hey, for those that can't get the pool B drops from story arcs can always PVP, let's do it!" and then stop looking for PVE solutions to the problem.
I did NOT say this was an exploit. I have upthread said that those that would most likely benefit from such a "fix" would only be the hard-core PVPers that already through other means pretty much farm the heck of that kind of system.
Let me put it another way (numbers for illustration purposes only):
Let us say that doing the Lord Recluse Strike Force gave a drop that gives a +50% increased effectiveness to batteling the Heroes. Now the 2nd run would be easier, and you gain an additional +50% bonus, making the 3rd run easier. And so on until those that repeatedly do the SF can do the strike force in under 30 minutes. So the developers seeing that it is being beaten "too fast" increase the difficulty. After a few of these adjustments, the only ones doing the Strike Force would be those that are "Hard Core", leaving everyone else out in the cold.
I seem to recall the developers have already stated that the hard core PVPers will most likely be the ones maxing out on inventions anyways, so it follows that people that are not hard core will be toast entering Sirens Call if this is tied to the bounty system.
Also it does NOT address the fact that those who have outlevelled arcs will have less access to Pool B.
(Edited to correct an error in the second last paragraph.)
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, I see. Thanks for that explanation. It is much like the "I can't defeat X" and the response is "get a shivan" so the devs don't fix X, just expect others to get a shivan. (Please note this is not a known fact by me, just a could be.)
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
[ QUOTE ]
My whole issue with PVP or PVE is twofold...
1 ) If a PVP zone will get you a IO or a drop after 2 hours of gameplay and a player take 8-9 hours to complete the Story arch, who comes out ahead? (besides if you know those in the zone you can "friend bounty" all day long and get boatloads)
2 ) Story arch's are non repeatable. PVP zones you can live in and continually get the drops.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the crux: If B drops are designed to be limited to under 100 per character (hence attaching them to unrepeatable content), then no method of making them unlimited content works: they would need to be nerfed.
If B drops are not designed to be limited (and are therefore no more piffy than c or D drops), then we are all getting upset over nothing. At that point, you might as well add B drops to the C and D tables and call it a day.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
I'm not so much against the idea of adding a once a day chance to get a pool B from the bounty system. I just do not think that it is an acceptable alternate method to story arc completion, if it is the only solution that the developers can come up with.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
the only people this is truly a problem with are those who have to have 'em all
the solution is the same for all collectors of any item in any reality.
Pay for it
Once you make the collectable rare common, it is no longer collectable.
Anyone noticed the price on Death of Superman lately? It reflects the insane availability. Easy to obtain collection pieces are worthless.
The system will have rarity whether people want it or not. At least the 4 Pool System allows you to localize your search for your particularly desired rare. You only have to delve into Pool B for this and Pool D for that. We dont even know what will be where yet. Combining the pools decreases your chance of getting what you desire at any given time on those toons who do have available story arcs. Creating more paths to Pool B ruins the entire rarity idea.
Dear devs,
PLEASE, Keep the Pool B story arc plan.
[ QUOTE ]
the solution is the same for all collectors of any item in any reality.
Pay for it
[/ QUOTE ]
Bzzzt. We have a loser. (The idea, not the poster.)
[*] This is a game. The more like reality it becomes, the less I will appreciate it.[*] As matters stand, the only people who have to "pay for it" are the people outside the level ranges where rare doohicky "X" is a valid drop. Why are people so willing to accept a solution that only screws a part of the player base out of a potential reward?
[ QUOTE ]
The system will have rarity whether people want it or not.
[/ QUOTE ]
And rarity need not be in any way gated by level.
[ QUOTE ]
Dear devs,
PLEASE, Keep the Pool B story arc plan.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dear devs, please listen to everyone here, not just those who are convinced that theirs is the only way.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
2 ) Story arch's are non repeatable. PVP zones you can live in and continually get the drops.
[/ QUOTE ]
The goal is to find a way to continually get the drops.
[ QUOTE ]
This is the crux: If B drops are designed to be limited to under 100 per character (hence attaching them to unrepeatable content), then no method of making them unlimited content works: they would need to be nerfed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then they needed to be nerfed in the first place. Finite access is just an additional problem that in no was addresses the first.
[ QUOTE ]
This is the crux: If B drops are designed to be limited to under 100 per character (hence attaching them to unrepeatable content), then no method of making them unlimited content works: they would need to be nerfed.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that the team coming up with the Pool B wanted it limited to well under 100 drops. Rather they, and I am taking their word here, wanted a way to reward time spent on content. I would guess that the person coming up with that hadn't played this game much (but maybe other MMOs), didn't look at the mechanics of story arcs and how they award, and thought this was a good idea not knowing that the story arc rewards were one-offs.
[ QUOTE ]
If B drops are not designed to be limited (and are therefore no more piffy than c or D drops), then we are all getting upset over nothing. At that point, you might as well add B drops to the C and D tables and call it a day.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which some are calling for. My "best case" request is a repeatable story arc for each level range, set it so that the reward can only be claimed once a day.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
the only manner in which to guarantee rarity is to limit access.
I would rather have a high chance of obtaining a rare item from doing something I can only do once, than have a minimal chance of ever seeing one at all unless I devote enough time to make my game a job
Good luck to those who wish to see an easily obtained quickly nerfed ability. I hope you lose, but then I liked the random flight poses.
If all that the Devs want to do is reward time spent on content, then here is a rough suggestion, ready to be flamed and ripped:
In addition to Story Arcs, B drops can drop from any Mission Complete, at a rate of 1 per 18 hours (per character). They only drop if the user has completed at least 3 different missions in that 18 hour period.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
[ QUOTE ]
the only manner in which to guarantee rarity is to limit access.
[/ QUOTE ]
Limited access implies neither finite supply per character nor supply gated by level range. That's the major complaint. It can still be limited without excluding those who have leveled over certain ranges or completed all the content that would source these drops based on the original plan.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
If all that the Devs want to do is reward time spent on content
[/ QUOTE ]
Go to the very first post in this thread:
[ QUOTE ]
Now I hear you guys... you all seem to dislike the Story Arc aspect of this system. I've had some discussions with the team yesterday about what we could do instead, and still keep the flavor of the four pool system, because having the extra three pools allows us to not only reward risk/reward, but time/reward as well. Takes longer to do a Task Force? Here's a nice bonus you can't get anywhere else. Finish the Respec trial, but already have all your Respecs? Here's a nice reward that carries with it some good inherent value.
[/ QUOTE ]
Highlighted for amusement.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
[ QUOTE ]
Absolutely correct, Korith, except for a few exceptions
1) the 50s who don't care
2) the 50's who will refuse to "dirty their play style" with PLing
3) the 50s who actually want level 20-30 sets (but they can just stop the PL early)
4) the people who don't have an extra slot on their server, and refuse to open a second account
[/ QUOTE ]
You missed one:
5) the people who don't have an extra slot on their server, and can't afford to pay for a second account. I'm guessing there are a lot more in the # 5 category than the # 4 category. If they could get a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. account while still only paying a total of $15 a month I don't think there would be as many complaints.
A better solution would be to always give a new slot for each 50 on a server. This would mean each player would always have 8 or 12 (depending on if they have 1 or both games) slots available to characters who can be leveled.
The only reason to have the different pools is to encourage people to do content they may otherwise not do. If I'm not doing trials and TFs now, why do you want to me to start? I'd do them if I had the time or they were fun. I don't and they aren't. I'm surprised you don't have a PvP pool, since that is essentially the same thing.
I don't have time to do much more than a few missions here and there (lengthy sessions are out of the question) and the invention system seems like it could be a fun way to extend my waning interest.
Just throwing this out there for devs consideration.
If you really must have the different pools, just know you are rewarding some and not all. I do not have the time to complete most if not all of the TFs. I know that isn't your fault, but there it is.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If all that the Devs want to do is reward time spent on content
[/ QUOTE ]
Go to the very first post in this thread:
[ QUOTE ]
Now I hear you guys... you all seem to dislike the Story Arc aspect of this system. I've had some discussions with the team yesterday about what we could do instead, and still keep the flavor of the four pool system, because having the extra three pools allows us to not only reward risk/reward, but time/reward as well. Takes longer to do a Task Force? Here's a nice bonus you can't get anywhere else. Finish the Respec trial, but already have all your Respecs? Here's a nice reward that carries with it some good inherent value.
[/ QUOTE ]
Highlighted for amusement.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're right, that is amusing. Unless i'm reading too much into that quote, it sounds like they are rewarding non-casual gamers with full IO sets. 
Posters asked for time/reward, and here it is. Now don't say the Devs never give you nothin'.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
[ QUOTE ]
Posters asked for time/reward, and here it is. Now don't say the Devs never give you nothin'.
[/ QUOTE ]
I like the idea of adding them to x number of normal missions done as a random reward of some sort as you mentioned above.
Or perhaps a new contact that once you've done x missions of any type their bar fills up and you can go get a Pool B pattern reward or SO from them. Their bar would fill up like the detective's/Broker's bars for Safeguards/Mayhems. This would allow the developers to decide how many missions should be done before x is filled.
Djeannie's Costume Creator Overhaul Wishlist
Carnie Base
"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh
[ QUOTE ]
Posters asked for time/reward, and here it is. Now don't say the Devs never give you nothin'.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hehe, indeed. Too bad i'm not one of those posters.
No one's ripped that suggestion apart yet. Maybe I should PM it to Castle or Positron.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
[ QUOTE ]
The only reason to have the different pools is to encourage people to do content they may otherwise not do. If I'm not doing trials and TFs now, why do you want to me to start? I'd do them if I had the time or they were fun. I don't and they aren't. I'm surprised you don't have a PvP pool, since that is essentially the same thing.
I don't have time to do much more than a few missions here and there (lengthy sessions are out of the question) and the invention system seems like it could be a fun way to extend my waning interest.
Just throwing this out there for devs consideration.
If you really must have the different pools, just know you are rewarding some and not all. I do not have the time to complete most if not all of the TFs. I know that isn't your fault, but there it is.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, you actually just convinced me that there should be a PvP pool. Seriously. 
I'm also in the same boat you are, in that I haven't had more than 45 minutes of continuous play in about 6 months. 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming that all stacks, you're getting 35% +Regen and 21.9% Recovery per power. Times three it comes to 105% Regen and 65.7% Recovery. Congrats, you've exceeded the benefits of Health, but not Stamina, and now you have only at most three slots in Aid Self and Dull Pain to use for actual healing. Are you really feeling eager to slot powers like this?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's great that you have counter examples, but that does nothing for the pro examples. Lets take a Regen Scrapper. There's a lot of give and take over whether to ever slot Fast Healing. If you take Health that's another power you have a lot of slack on whether you bother slotting. Now, instead of slotting Heals in these powers, which give you +33% off the base, you could now slot straight up +Regen IOs. You get the best return out of slotting no Heals in these powers and slotting them only with +Regen IOs.
Also, for your example of an Invuln Scrapper, don't forget that he too can slot Health and even Rest with these IOs. Why gimp Aid Self to get these benefits?
[/ QUOTE ]
This was all in response to the original implication that one could use IOs to replace powers and/or power pools they feel forced into, Fitness/Stamina and Leaping/Acrobatics being the most often mentioned culprits. Using /Regen as an example of being able to go without Stamina is like me stating nobody needs to take Super Speed anymore, because IOs provide enough +Runspeed to equal it, and using a /SR build as an example; it's already commonly done by them now, so it's misleading to use it as an example of what might commonly be done by everyone in the future.
So far the only possibility of eliminating a power pool choice is the knockback protection provided by IOs, and somehow I think that will change.
But if you want to three slot Rest, go right ahead. 
[ QUOTE ]
(...) It seems that the extremely rare recipients from Pools B, C and D are going to be the desireable ones. That is if the devs are true to form. That's OK for C and D. But trying Pool B to story arcs means that there will be a finite supply of those recipies. And the supply is going to be small 40'ish CoH arcs, 12 character per server, X accounts playing on a server. And the number won't be that high as recipies are going to be spread in level range. And to top it off man players have already completed arcs or have out leveled them further limited the supply.
Now you have a very simple Economics 101 situation. Low Supply, High Demands. And if what I surmise about the recipes being highly desireable, demands will be very high. In case people don't get it, Low Supply + High Demand means high prices. I don't want to get into a situation where I'm bidding against a large, active SG with millions or billions of Influece available to its members.
Small, finite supply in a situation like this one is a very, very bad idea.
[/ QUOTE ]
Though finite at a particular moment in time, the arc enhancements are not as limited as you may imply. Rather, what's going to happen is that there's going to be a substantial time barrier to acquire them.
I envision the following:
-Someone has a 50 that they want to slot out with the best possible HO and IO combination, calculated shortly after inventions hit test.
-This someone finds a friend with a 50 in the same boat, and another friend with a lv 46 toon who wants to hit 50.
-A PLing strategy ensues, where one 50 runs a mission with the 46 and an SK'd toon from their friend
-The 46 dings 47 shortly before the PL'd toon reaches level 40, in striking range of the new arc
-The friends switch places, bringing the now-47 toon close to 48, and producing another level 40.
-I9 hits live, the 40's collect those hard-to-get level 40 Story arc awards after running some safeguards/mayhems to get contacts.
-People complain about PLing
-Time passes. The hardcore 50's get their IO's. People begin progressing naturally through the invention system, and the devs tweak inventions roughly halfway between I9 and I10.
-The 50's complain about their hard-earned inventions being nerfed, even though half of them where actually improved.