I'd also echo the concern of level 50s missing out on a key source of rewards. Maybe make the high levels provide more of a particular type of reward in order to promote trades with the ones they cannot access?
Example, 50s gan probably get a lot of AV rewards. They can use these for themselves, or trade them for the story arc ones they need.
Doc! Thanks for returning to help shed some light on the situation. Also glad the devs are keeping their ears to the ground as far as feedback is concerned.
Eagerly awaiting Test time to quantify some findings on the Hypothetical Framework 
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Much better system but think there should be a very small chance for to get stuff from other pools. Something like
Doing Pool A stuff 97% of the time you get Pool A; 1% from Pool B; 1% from Pool C; 1% from Pool D
Doing Pool B stuff 97% of the time you get Pool B; 1% from Pool A; 1% from Pool C; 1% from Pool D
Doing Pool C stuff 97% of the time you get Pool C; 1% from Pool A; 1% from Pool B; 1% from Pool D
Doing Pool D stuff 97% of the time you get Pool D; 1% from Pool A; 1% from Pool B; 1% from Pool C
This way you could always have a small chance to get something without having you "Must do X to get Y'.
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Now if this is what the Doc is actually saying I'm all for that.
EDIT: As I re-read what he posted, it sounds like that is what he is saying.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
So you're saying there are 1-off recipies (for lack of a better term) from pools B-D which do not add up to a part of a set? Innnnnteresting.
As for story arcs, as said above, the trouble is accessability. Badges had this problem, but you can exemp along with a friend to join a badge mission. Why not make arc completions the same? *do* the mission, anyone's copy, and you get a recipe, limit one recipe per character per mission. If needed, add a requirement that they only drop the recipe in the contact's range, or only drop for people at or above the contact's range.
Thanks for the updates. Good to have some regular communication going with someone.
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Doc, can we get a little clarification on "what parts" you are referring to that are only dropped by Story Arcs, Trials and Task Forces?
Are the "Parts of a set" each a different, exclusive part in the story arcs, trials and task/strike forces?
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From what I understood, if a set is a 5 piece set, you can get something like enough recipes for 4 of those sets by beating stuff up, but the recipe fo the fifth piece might be harder.
This would allow people to collect pieces of the set rather easily (thus getting some of the bonuses), but completing the set much trickier.
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Well that is the case for *some* of the sets.
* The majority of sets are available exclusively through defeating enemies. This means that all the pieces of the set are attainable by beating up things.
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And I would argue that NONE of the sets should be this way. As it unfairly punishes 50s, for whom Inventions was mentioned as a way to improve without raising the lvl cap.
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Can you or can you not improve your 50 without the storyarc IOs?
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Not the way that the devs explained the Inventions system wotuld work.
The idea was that you could basically keep improving your 50 as being equal to them keeping increasing the lvl cap.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Ack no EG I don't do TFs or Trials, but I do as many story arcs as I can before out leveling them. Your saying I can't get any of the rarer recipes?
grrrr.
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I don't do trials either. The time commiment just isn't something I can give. The last TF I was in was Positron... right after TF's were turned on... 8 or 9 hours and a numb butt later I swore never again. And yeah, I know not all trials are 8 or 9 hours long, great. Anyone wanna babysit two toddlers for me?
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* Not every level has all four pools (early levels don't have Pool D, the Trial pool)
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Well, in THAT case...
... why not just remove the Story Arc pool from levels 45-50, and assign all the relevant rewards to trials and TFs, since level 45-50 characters can do ANY trial or TF from anywhere in the game?
The story arch inventions just won't work for us that have high level characters. I really like the sound rest of the system, but high levels--the ones looking for something to do and who would appreciate collecting these--are being left out.
Do we all have to start over from scratch for a chance to get full sets?
Level 50: Furlon the Grim, BS/Regen Scrapper, Virtue
Current creations:
Slaughterface, DB/Elec Brute
Captain Warhead, Rad/Rad Defender, Virtue
Capt. Scar, Arch/Ice Blaster
Global @ Capt. Scar
Thanks for the clarification, Doc.
Again, I love the idea of tying drops to repeatable but special content like TFs and Trials. That's a wonderful, wonderful idea that also adds a lot of flavour.
The problem with Story Arcs really is that they're not freely repeatable at any point in the game. We still have the Story Arc bug that will sometimes lock you into old Arcs, keeping you from getting new ones if you don't realize it -- and while we now have the little book icon to tell us when that happens, I've seen people who've plain not noticed the icon anyways. We'll have more incentive for people on teams clamoring to have their arcs done over anybody else's missions which does to some extent discourage teaming unless you have a well-coordinated crack team of friends -- but many casual players depend on pickup teams.
Lastly there's the issue of level 50 characters requiring specific Recipes and being out of Story Arcs. I thought Inventions were also meant to encourage dusting off those 50s with their millions of Influence and doing something with them. After all, the way it was sold, Inventions also contain the scrapped 'Legends' system.
You see my point, I trust. I'm all for tying special drops to special content. But then, it should be repeatable content. Anything that includes auto-exemplaring qualifies. Anything that includes a form of reward for the entire team qualifies. While Story Arcs make sense and definitely should stay up there in my opinion, they shouldn't be the exclusive way of earning particular drops.
Instead, to offer an alternative, it would be more sensible to (also) link the StoryArc drops to Badges for example. While Accomplishment Badge missions are probably fewer than Story Arcs, the reward for them is given to everyone involved, and at least in COV, many Badge missions are part of Story Arcs already. The best thing about rewards tied to Badges is that for those, we know they can be retroactively awarded if it's still an issue. With Story Arc Souvenirs, I'm not so sure. And Accomplishment Badges still represent a viable state of immersion into the game, don't they?
Lastly, a question. What level will drops from auto-exemplared venues like Trials and TFs be? Will they drop at the level of the TF (eg. doing Posi drops a 14-16) or will they depend on the unexemplared level of the character? Or -and that's my worry here- will they suffer from the same bug HO drops currently suffer when someone is exemplared at a Raid?
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
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I'd also echo the concern of level 50s missing out on a key source of rewards. Maybe make the high levels provide more of a particular type of reward in order to promote trades with the ones they cannot access?
Example, 50s gan probably get a lot of AV rewards. They can use these for themselves, or trade them for the story arc ones they need.
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There are no AV rewards. Doc just said that Minions and AV's drop the same stuff. Enemy defeat is enemy defeat.
That said, the 50's have more access to the Trial and SF/TF stuff.
@Quasadu
"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick
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Doc, can we get a little clarification on "what parts" you are referring to that are only dropped by Story Arcs, Trials and Task Forces?
Are the "Parts of a set" each a different, exclusive part in the story arcs, trials and task/strike forces?
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From what I understood, if a set is a 5 piece set, you can get something like enough recipes for 4 of those sets by beating stuff up, but the recipe fo the fifth piece might be harder.
This would allow people to collect pieces of the set rather easily (thus getting some of the bonuses), but completing the set much trickier.
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Well that is the case for *some* of the sets.
* The majority of sets are available exclusively through defeating enemies. This means that all the pieces of the set are attainable by beating up things.
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And I would argue that NONE of the sets should be this way. As it unfairly punishes 50s, for whom Inventions was mentioned as a way to improve without raising the lvl cap.
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Can you or can you not improve your 50 without the storyarc IOs?
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Not the way that the devs explained the Inventions system wotuld work.
The idea was that you could basically keep improving your 50 as being equal to them keeping increasing the lvl cap.
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So you're saying that your 50 won't be able to use any IOs just because you're out of storyarcs?
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure. --- Thomas Jefferson
Formerly known as YFNDBA
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Much better system but think there should be a very small chance for to get stuff from other pools. Something like
Doing Pool A stuff 97% of the time you get Pool A; 1% from Pool B; 1% from Pool C; 1% from Pool D
Doing Pool B stuff 97% of the time you get Pool B; 1% from Pool A; 1% from Pool C; 1% from Pool D
Doing Pool C stuff 97% of the time you get Pool C; 1% from Pool A; 1% from Pool B; 1% from Pool D
Doing Pool D stuff 97% of the time you get Pool D; 1% from Pool A; 1% from Pool B; 1% from Pool C
This way you could always have a small chance to get something without having you "Must do X to get Y'.
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Now if this is what the Doc is actually saying I'm all for that.
EDIT: As I re-read what he posted, it sounds like that is what he is saying.
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I don't think he's saying that.
If he *is* saying that (and I'm misreading) then my response is: No.
Actually, not just no, it's... HELL no.
I don't want to run a TF and end up 1% of the time getting a drop I could have gotten killing Longbow on the street. if I run a TF I want a reward for running a TF. It's a huge time commitment, you need some guarantee of what that will yield.
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Inventions has been touted as something that shelved level 50's can partake in. Level 50's that have completed all their story arcs already. Please, how can both of those occur? Level 50's can not experience IO's if they are locked out of acheiving specific rewards because they happened to hit the level cap before I9.
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It's like I said, we are looking into other options that keeps the mechanic of the four pool system. Our intention is to not make people feel "gimped" for previously completing all their story arcs.
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* Giant Monsters don't drop recipes so they are not farmed for recipes, causing camping issues we are actively trying to avoid. As for reasons to fight Giant Monsters... well the Hive and the Abyss now contain very good reasons to defeat these guys.
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Let me guess - the first phase of the Hamidon Trial entails defeating 5 Giant Monsters?
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Much better system but think there should be a very small chance for to get stuff from other pools. Something like
Doing Pool A stuff 97% of the time you get Pool A; 1% from Pool B; 1% from Pool C; 1% from Pool D
Doing Pool B stuff 97% of the time you get Pool B; 1% from Pool A; 1% from Pool C; 1% from Pool D
Doing Pool C stuff 97% of the time you get Pool C; 1% from Pool A; 1% from Pool B; 1% from Pool D
Doing Pool D stuff 97% of the time you get Pool D; 1% from Pool A; 1% from Pool B; 1% from Pool C
This way you could always have a small chance to get something without having you "Must do X to get Y'.
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Now if this is what the Doc is actually saying I'm all for that.
EDIT: As I re-read what he posted, it sounds like that is what he is saying.
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No, I do not think that how the current system works but would be my suggestion on how it should work.
This is a service-oriented business, and it's all
about keeping the player happy over the long term.
So you have to listen and pay attention. If a large
portion of your playerbase is screaming about
some change, you be wise to listen. - Raph Koster
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* Not every level has all four pools (early levels don't have Pool D, the Trial pool)
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Well, in THAT case...
... why not just remove the Story Arc pool from levels 45-50, and assign all the relevant rewards to trials and TFs, since level 45-50 characters can do ANY trial or TF from anywhere in the game?
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Or add some repeatable arcs or something to the 45+ game.
Something. Anything. Otherwise, there's no point to playing a character right now for fear of missing something and outlevelling da kewl loot.
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I've had some discussions with the team yesterday about what we could do instead, and still keep the flavor of the four pool system
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I can think of a few options
A) Killing anything EB and higher
B) Completing a mayhem
C) Keep it for finishing story arcs, but make it for anyone in the team who is on the team for said completed story arc. That way 50s can exemp down and keep helping people complete story arcs.
D) Make it the 3 pool system and take the story arc pool and mix it in with the other 3 pools
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Now I hear you guys... you all seem to dislike the Story Arc aspect of this system. I've had some discussions with the team yesterday about what we could do instead, and still keep the flavor of the four pool system, because having the extra three pools allows us to not only reward risk/reward, but time/reward as well. Takes longer to do a Task Force? Here's a nice bonus you can't get anywhere else. Finish the Respec trial, but already have all your Respecs? Here's a nice reward that carries with it some good inherent value.
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WHY STORY ARC EXCLUSIVES ARE BROKEN:
Because they are the ONLY thing you can't repeat. The only. Think about everything else on the list posted by Dr. Brainstorm:
TF - Any character 12+ can do Positron's TF (if a hero, obviously) ANY TIME THEY WANT.
Trials - Any one 24+ can do a respec trial ANY TIME THEY WANT.
Killing mobs of all levels - With exemplar you can do this ANY TIME YOU WANT.
You might need a team, that's OK. But story arcs can only be done once. Fix that or no recipes be available only from story arcs. All you're going to accomplish is creating:
ULTRA RARE LOOT
Which goes against everything you said you wanted to accomplish. It will make the game more hardcore than WoW or Everquest II.
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Please note, this is totally divorced from whether it's fair to people who've already done the story arcs. Even if the game launched with inventions, it would be wrong to gate loot to content that cannot be repeated.
Devs, this must change. Every single recipe and piece of loot must be available from content that's available to all characters. Otherwise, you're going to have a system where people monopolize the most rare loot and charge exorbitant prices for it.
Seriously, this is exactly what you don't want. The best solution is to allow use to flashback and do any content we want anytime we want. Stop gating content by level and stop locking story arcs. I would prefer this because it would allow my main to reexperience some of the great story arcs and changes made to the game.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Doc, can we get a little clarification on "what parts" you are referring to that are only dropped by Story Arcs, Trials and Task Forces?
Are the "Parts of a set" each a different, exclusive part in the story arcs, trials and task/strike forces?
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From what I understood, if a set is a 5 piece set, you can get something like enough recipes for 4 of those sets by beating stuff up, but the recipe fo the fifth piece might be harder.
This would allow people to collect pieces of the set rather easily (thus getting some of the bonuses), but completing the set much trickier.
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Well that is the case for *some* of the sets.
* The majority of sets are available exclusively through defeating enemies. This means that all the pieces of the set are attainable by beating up things.
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And I would argue that NONE of the sets should be this way. As it unfairly punishes 50s, for whom Inventions was mentioned as a way to improve without raising the lvl cap.
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And I am not arguing against you there. He said he was talking to the design team about the Story Aspect of things, so we shall see. Good news is, it sounds like at least the majority of the content won't be unattainable for the moment.
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Ack no EG I don't do TFs or Trials, but I do as many story arcs as I can before out leveling them. Your saying I can't get any of the rarer recipes?
grrrr.
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I don't do trials either. The time commiment just isn't something I can give. The last TF I was in was Positron... right after TF's were turned on... 8 or 9 hours and a numb butt later I swore never again. And yeah, I know not all trials are 8 or 9 hours long, great. Anyone wanna babysit two toddlers for me?
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No they are not all 8 or 9 hours.
Some are 15 hours long. Shard tf anyone?
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Inventions has been touted as something that shelved level 50's can partake in. Level 50's that have completed all their story arcs already. Please, how can both of those occur? Level 50's can not experience IO's if they are locked out of acheiving specific rewards because they happened to hit the level cap before I9.
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It's like I said, we are looking into other options that keeps the mechanic of the four pool system. Our intention is to not make people feel "gimped" for previously completing all their story arcs.
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FLASHBACK
FLASHBACK
FLASHBACK
FLASHBACK
FLASHBACK
It's not a difficult problem.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Seems a lot of people are worried about 50's not having any Arcs to do. Thus missing out on one of the four ways to get IO's.
So, why not just add in a level 50 Arc that can be repeated as many times as you like. Maybe a few of them, the shadow shard would be a good place for that.
It'd give 50's more content. And a way to get Story Arc IO's
Just a thought
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Inventions has been touted as something that shelved level 50's can partake in. Level 50's that have completed all their story arcs already. Please, how can both of those occur? Level 50's can not experience IO's if they are locked out of acheiving specific rewards because they happened to hit the level cap before I9.
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It's like I said, we are looking into other options that keeps the mechanic of the four pool system. Our intention is to not make people feel "gimped" for previously completing all their story arcs.
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Thank you. Very much.
I'm sorry if I'm sounding like a broken record about this, but it's a big deal for me. I've got two 50's that I want to want to play again. I've got a 36 that I'm seriously not wanting to play right now for fear of missing something. I want to like this system. Really, but it's hard if parts of it are forever out of reach. That's why I'm all broken record sounding.
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So, why not just add in a level 50 Arc that can be repeated as many times as you like.
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Or just remove the Story Arc pool from the last levels in exactly the same way as the Trial pool is removed from the first levels!
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Doc, can we get a little clarification on "what parts" you are referring to that are only dropped by Story Arcs, Trials and Task Forces?
Are the "Parts of a set" each a different, exclusive part in the story arcs, trials and task/strike forces?
[/ QUOTE ]
From what I understood, if a set is a 5 piece set, you can get something like enough recipes for 4 of those sets by beating stuff up, but the recipe fo the fifth piece might be harder.
This would allow people to collect pieces of the set rather easily (thus getting some of the bonuses), but completing the set much trickier.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well that is the case for *some* of the sets.
* The majority of sets are available exclusively through defeating enemies. This means that all the pieces of the set are attainable by beating up things.
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And I would argue that NONE of the sets should be this way. As it unfairly punishes 50s, for whom Inventions was mentioned as a way to improve without raising the lvl cap.
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Can you or can you not improve your 50 without the storyarc IOs?
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure. --- Thomas Jefferson
Formerly known as YFNDBA