[ QUOTE ]
I had my miniskirt disappear underwater yesterday too. It was the one with the rectangular cutouts on the sides. I was left with a black bikini that was obviously not from costume design, but from wanting to keep a teen rating. =)
[/ QUOTE ]
That's another issue: they're simply drawing the skirt too late.
Cliff notes explanation.
Most everything in the game updates the "z-buffer" when it's drawn, this allows the driver to know how far away it can see. That way if it tries to draw something else in the same place on sceen, it'll draw it (and re-adjust the z-buffer) if and only if the new object is in front of the current object.
This includes the surface of water, and certain other items (see my post above for at least one other).
If you draw skirts and capes AFTER water (etc), as the game is doing now, the driver will faithfully say "Humm. This water surface placed a value of 1000 in the z-buffer. Someone's asking me to render this skirt with a z-buffer value of 1010 (because the skirt is behind the water surface), so I'd better not draw it." Boom, vanishing skirt.
This is a gnarly problem because the water surface is transparent - the general best solution to this is to move all transparent objects as late in the draw order as possible.
Possible hacks are to turn of the water draw completely - doing so does cause skirts to render, but of course the water vanishes. The other hack would be to disable z-buffer writes for water. This would turn skirts on under water, but they would appear to cut a hole in the water's surface.
Neither of these will look good. Trust me.
Scrappers are just like chainsaws. Somewhat hard to handle, EXTREMELY dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane.
@Alissara - an Angry Angel
The Angry Angels. When it absolutely positively has to be spanked today.
indeed, i would like to see something along the lines of different permissions for base items. example..have it to where you can have different permission for each typf bin, that way someone with access to all cant go all renegade and rob you blind, if they only had access to insp bins..oh well take them all, and get booted later..just a thought of mine. i have heard of a few toons out there that join sg's get enough rank to get to the bins and rob them, maybe its rumor..but it is still likely as well. kinda sucks knowing that some ppl are just too lazy to earn the stuff.
Me
@The REAL Chop
My teachers always told me to follow my dreams. To bad they are all Nightmares.
[ QUOTE ]
Something that would probably get a huge amount of Hell Yeah! support from a small but vocal minority would be a config option that simply says:
[ ] Do not render other player's capes, trenchcoats and wings.
The small vocal (alright not so vocal) minority are those like myself that regularly attend hami raids.
The nice thing about this is that would also provide a stopgap fix for the cape crash problem - if I don't render other player's capes, and turn my own off, it seems to me that it'd reduce the likelyhood of a cape crash quite dramatically.
IMHO, of course.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed, and it would improve overall performance for those with lower end machines (not me, but just saying...).
And I might actually be able to play the game then. I literally cannot play right now whatsoever. What use is trying to do a mission when you'll crash before completing it? Considering that I don't want to expose a stranger to my erratic and often habit of crashing I tend to play solo, so no one "holds" the mission while I'm verifying files and re-logging in. I can't last longer than 10-12 mins in game with one specific character.
I'd love to invite a tech to my house to see this problem in action and see if it would help narrow it down on their end.
*Open Invite to come to FLA and see*
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had my miniskirt disappear underwater yesterday too. It was the one with the rectangular cutouts on the sides. I was left with a black bikini that was obviously not from costume design, but from wanting to keep a teen rating. =)
[/ QUOTE ]
That's another issue: they're simply drawing the skirt too late.
Cliff notes explanation.
Most everything in the game updates the "z-buffer" when it's drawn, this allows the driver to know how far away it can see. That way if it tries to draw something else in the same place on sceen, it'll draw it (and re-adjust the z-buffer) if and only if the new object is in front of the current object.
This includes the surface of water, and certain other items (see my post above for at least one other).
If you draw skirts and capes AFTER water (etc), as the game is doing now, the driver will faithfully say "Humm. This water surface placed a value of 1000 in the z-buffer. Someone's asking me to render this skirt with a z-buffer value of 1010 (because the skirt is behind the water surface), so I'd better not draw it." Boom, vanishing skirt.
This is a gnarly problem because the water surface is transparent - the general best solution to this is to move all transparent objects as late in the draw order as possible.
Possible hacks are to turn of the water draw completely - doing so does cause skirts to render, but of course the water vanishes. The other hack would be to disable z-buffer writes for water. This would turn skirts on under water, but they would appear to cut a hole in the water's surface.
Neither of these will look good. Trust me.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's more to this one than meets the eye (literally as well as metaphorically).
The char that had the problem is Amarone, my L35 is scrapper. Keeping that in mind, Alissara (L50 scrapper) was running with a costume that has both a cape AND a skirt, and neither of them vanished under water.
Needless to say, that got me to thinking. Only some skirts and capes vanish underwater. Pleated skirts vanish, while "plain" or "straight" skirts don't. Straight rectangular capes don't vanish (as Alissara has), while Amarone has the "swallowtail" cape, which does.
And there was the blinding flash of inspiration. So, I added a quick hack that drops the game into line draw mode, and the results are hugely interesting, albeit completely unsurprising to me.
Back view of Amarone w/ swallowtail cape
On the left is what we normally see. I've highlighted the "bottom" of the cape in blue. The right shows linedraw, the cape comes out in purple. As you can see, it's drawing the entire "short rectangular cape" area and using alpha blend to create the shape.
Which explains why it's where it is in the draw order. Guessing now, but this would suggest a system that (correctly) delays drawing of alpha blended stuff to the end of the frame. The problem now becomes the fact that characters are drawn after scenery, therefore if they maintain draw order within the delay, character alpha stuff gets drawn after scenery alpha stuff, leading to what we see.
So, it's still a problem of being drawn too late, but the reason for the lateness is becoming clearer.
The fix for this is a little uglier, either two delayed queues of alpha stuff, one for character stuff and one for scenery, or some sort of priority system, so that even though character stuff is added later, it gets drawn first.
Note also that this fix WILL introduce other artifacts, but they will probably be less objectionable. Consider the space that's created when the bottom of the cape is "cut out" by alpha blend. It's a sort of half circle shape below the blue line. If that half circle would have water drawn in it, the water would vanish.
Scrappers are just like chainsaws. Somewhat hard to handle, EXTREMELY dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane.
@Alissara - an Angry Angel
The Angry Angels. When it absolutely positively has to be spanked today.
[ QUOTE ]
The fix for this is a little uglier, either two delayed queues of alpha stuff, one for character stuff and one for scenery, or some sort of priority system, so that even though character stuff is added later, it gets drawn first.
[/ QUOTE ]
Couldn't you just re-create the capes with the cut-out portion built in to the geometry?
You seem to know a lot about the 3d graphics stuff, so can I ask: I thought alpha blending stuff was a really expensive operation. If they're doing this to acheive effects like different cape shapes, could this explain why this game has such big performance issues around things like Arachnos lab maps, where it seems like they might be using the same strategy?
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
Uhm...wow. Just....wow. 
I humbly bow before the awesomeness of your computer game graphics engine understanding. 
My contribution? I like chocolate milk. 'Nuff said. Carry on! 
Basically too many 50's to count, but I'm generally a brute/scrapper/tank kind of guy.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The fix for this is a little uglier, either two delayed queues of alpha stuff, one for character stuff and one for scenery, or some sort of priority system, so that even though character stuff is added later, it gets drawn first.
[/ QUOTE ]
Couldn't you just re-create the capes with the cut-out portion built in to the geometry?
[/ QUOTE ]
Highly undesirable, for two reasons.
1. Physics. Right now, they only need one physics routine that places the vertices for the rectangular cape, all the other shapes will have their movement happen correctly by default. It's highly likely that messing with the geometry would entail tuning the cape physics for each shape. That falls into the "You just don't want to go there" bucket.
2. Some of the capes are partly see through - kinda a lacy effect. That requires alpha blend. Period.
[ QUOTE ]
You seem to know a lot about the 3d graphics stuff, so can I ask: I thought alpha blending stuff was a really expensive operation. If they're doing this to acheive effects like different cape shapes, could this explain why this game has such big performance issues around things like Arachnos lab maps, where it seems like they might be using the same strategy?
[/ QUOTE ]
Could well be.
Cliff notes answer. A non-alpha blended write is a single operation against the framebuffer memory: a write. Alpha blend requires a read-modify-write against the framebuffer, effectively cutting your framebuffer bandwidth in half.
In practice, there's a lot of other factors involved - caching, pipelining etc, so you can't simply say "alpha-blends slow down drawing to 50%".
The bottom line is that alpha blending almost always costs something, but it's not at all easy to say exactly how much. Worse yet, the cost will vary from one card to another. That's probably why different people see different amounts of slowdown, anywhere from hardly any at all to "it just went from fine to unplayable."
Scrappers are just like chainsaws. Somewhat hard to handle, EXTREMELY dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane.
@Alissara - an Angry Angel
The Angry Angels. When it absolutely positively has to be spanked today.
Capes = Doom?
A nerfarious Recluse plot?
Tune in next week to find out ...
[ QUOTE ]
Capes = Doom?
A nerfarious Recluse plot?
Tune in next week to find out ...
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep.. thats got to be it... but... wait... Recluse just d/c'd himself, cause he has a cape, as do the minions he summons... Stupid dumb Recluse and his stupid dumb plots.
Weird that I've never DCd, but I did once get the lego effect... Cerise had on a Baroque cape when it happened... Switched her to the Trench, and everything came back as if that lego never happened.
So... I think there's something wrong with Alpha Blends then. May be the key? She's the ONLY character I've ever gotten the Legos with.
August 31, 2012. A Day that will Live in Infamy. Or Information. Possibly Influence. Well, Inf, anyway. Thank you, Paragon Studios, for what you did, and the enjoyment and camaraderie you brought.
This is houtex, aka Mike, signing off the forums. G'night all. - 10/26/2012
Well... perhaps I was premature about that whole 'signing off' thing... - 11-9-2012
[ QUOTE ]
Weird that I've never DCd, but I did once get the lego effect... Cerise had on a Baroque cape when it happened... Switched her to the Trench, and everything came back as if that lego never happened.
So... I think there's something wrong with Alpha Blends then. May be the key? She's the ONLY character I've ever gotten the Legos with.
[/ QUOTE ]
You realize that by now, the devs are probably looking in on this, and grading us on how close we are to the probem. 
Possibly grinning a lot while doing so.
As of right now, my personal suspicion is that the mix of an alpha blended (cape or trench coat (*) or skirt) and certain auras is causing either the lego effect and/or the cape crash.
(*) I'm not online, so I don't know whether to include trenches in this. To be 100% sure I'd need to throw a trench coat on someone and then do a linedraw job. Although I seem to remember them having a deep slit up the back, which is a strong suggestion of alpha blending going on. Not a 100% proof though.
Has anyone seen lego auras when not wearing a trench coat or cape, but on a female char with a pleated skirt?
Enquiring minds want to know.
Bottom line is that alpha-blend keeps rearing it's head in this issue. I'd say the problem's somewhere in there. I just don't have any clue where.
Scrappers are just like chainsaws. Somewhat hard to handle, EXTREMELY dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane.
@Alissara - an Angry Angel
The Angry Angels. When it absolutely positively has to be spanked today.
i think whenever you make or roll a new toon you should have speedos and speedos only, well females get a sports bra or sumthn..then as u lvl u get more costume pieces,gives the devs more time to work out all the costume bugs..heh..obviosly im kidding, but it would still be funny.
Me
@The REAL Chop
My teachers always told me to follow my dreams. To bad they are all Nightmares.
Lightning aura's detail is gone when you use the recommended in the graphics options. Makes it look like thick blue lines moving on your body.
This has always been a problem not sure if it's fixable though.
Frankly I am Just curious as to whats going on with the Frost Fire Mish. Obviously the game stills sees the ice there since people go sliding around, Im just curious as to if anyone knows why the ice turnned invisible etc? I know this may seem like a silly question (If they knew why itd be fixed by now etc) But to be honest I am a curious sort, I like to know how things work, so with something like this it just seems like a fun puzzle.
Also sort of curious why this hasnt been brought up more in this forum since it is a popular mish and this "invisible objects" thing is apparently the culpret, im surprised more people dont bring it up.
P.S. Are controllers really supposed to be a solo class? Didnt the Devs say that some ATs are meant to be used for team work, and especially with certain power pools. (Recent Positron interview anyone?)
"Where does he get those wonderful toys?" - The Joker
Thats fixed on the current test build.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
[ QUOTE ]
Frankly I am Just curious as to whats going on with the Frost Fire Mish. Obviously the game stills sees the ice there since people go sliding around, Im just curious as to if anyone knows why the ice turnned invisible etc? I know this may seem like a silly question (If they knew why itd be fixed by now etc) But to be honest I am a curious sort, I like to know how things work, so with something like this it just seems like a fun puzzle.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's two sets of geometry in the game: The visible geometry that gets drawn, and what's known as the collision geometry, which is used to determine if you bump into something, or if you can slide on a surface.
As far as I can tell, the collision geometry remained unchanged throughout this, while the visible geometry stopped being drawn. There are two reasons something might not draw: firstly the data is sent to the card, but due to some sort of misconfiguration it does not appear on screen, or secondly it doesn't get sent to the card. In the case of Frostfire mission ice, it was the second: the data wasn't being sent down.
Why that happend is almost impossible to determine, unless you're a dev. It might have been removed from the source artwork (unlikely), the exporter that prepares the data could have had an error that caused it to reject that particular set of artwork, or something went wrong in the game engine itself that caused the failure. Or something else - this is not an all-inclusivelist of causes.
As noted, it's now largely academic since a fix is coming down the pike at us .....
Scrappers are just like chainsaws. Somewhat hard to handle, EXTREMELY dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane.
@Alissara - an Angry Angel
The Angry Angels. When it absolutely positively has to be spanked today.
How about the "Glowie spawning inside office staircase" bug? Can we see some fixing on that one?
OOOH I had that happen... And I waited an hour to get a GM before I gave up. And not ONE email either.. :P
August 31, 2012. A Day that will Live in Infamy. Or Information. Possibly Influence. Well, Inf, anyway. Thank you, Paragon Studios, for what you did, and the enjoyment and camaraderie you brought.
This is houtex, aka Mike, signing off the forums. G'night all. - 10/26/2012
Well... perhaps I was premature about that whole 'signing off' thing... - 11-9-2012
They like to do that. I had to start 4 different trouble tickets to get a response on my veteran power going *poof* before I got a response. But don't worry Houtex, you didn't miss anything other than a copied and pasted reply that had nothing to do with your issue... trust me.
[ QUOTE ]
How about the "Glowie spawning inside office staircase" bug? Can we see some fixing on that one?
[/ QUOTE ]
Hell if I know. I have a green name, therefore I'm not a dev.
Scrappers are just like chainsaws. Somewhat hard to handle, EXTREMELY dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane.
@Alissara - an Angry Angel
The Angry Angels. When it absolutely positively has to be spanked today.
[ QUOTE ]
It's been a while since I posted a top issues list, and for that I am very sorry.
We've been working on a few of the bigger bugs that have been hindering your overall gameplays and I just wanted to chime in and let you know that we are looking into the following with a high priority:
* Framerate drop when exiting a mission
* Missing (invisible) objects on mission maps.
* Client crash due to capes.
The last thing on the list (the cape crash) is causing us some major headaches and long nights, so it might not get fixed fully in the next build for Training Room, but hopefully it will be improved. For the meantime, if you find yourself on a team that is crashing a lot, you may want to have everyone switch to non-caped costumes for the duration. This includes trenchcoats unfortunately. Not the best solution I know, but we are working hard to get this completely fixed. Watch the boards and patch notes for when it's safe to put your capes back on.
In addition, we've made a bunch of fixes to power FXs for various powers to improve framerates. I don't have a list in front of me, but if I get one today, I will post it into this thread.
[/ QUOTE ]
You forgot invisible Heroes, also known as "out of sync." This bug is happening more and more frequently and its very annoying. Can we get a comment on this please? An acknowledgment? Something???
Here's a thread on it begging for some help here.
Thanks, NC Soft, for closing my favorite game ever without warning and with plenty of life still left in it, and thus relieving me of the burden of EVER wanting to buy, try or even hear about another game from your company. Will my decision make a dent, or persuade them in anyway, shape or form? Nope, obviously not. Don't care. NC Soft is dead to me. ~ PsyFox
[ QUOTE ]
So how soon until someone starts up the posts of 'Please run without your trenchcoats/wings/capes for the time being, to help reduce random crashes of everyone, TYVM!'?
Seems like it'd be a worthy goal, try it out for a bit, see if it helps. Anyone want to sound the alarm?
[/ QUOTE ]
Something that would probably get a huge amount of Hell Yeah! support from a small but vocal minority would be a config option that simply says:
[ ] Do not render other player's capes, trenchcoats and wings.
The small vocal (alright not so vocal) minority are those like myself that regularly attend hami raids.
The nice thing about this is that would also provide a stopgap fix for the cape crash problem - if I don't render other player's capes, and turn my own off, it seems to me that it'd reduce the likelyhood of a cape crash quite dramatically.
IMHO, of course.
Scrappers are just like chainsaws. Somewhat hard to handle, EXTREMELY dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane.
@Alissara - an Angry Angel
The Angry Angels. When it absolutely positively has to be spanked today.