"Toons"... are we playing Loony Toons?

Heheh, good luck taking on every studio that had a hand in 'Who Framed Roger Rabbit' - there are so many scary-big lawyer-happy names there I don't want to even mention them as I'd probably get sued for it.

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The fact is that 'toon', although inaccurate from many viewpoints, and even irritating to some people, has become a mainstream term, possibly because of the lighthearted connotations the term has.

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I disagree.

If that were the case, would we be able to have a cogent debate on the subject?

While I agree that most of the debate from the 'pro-toon' side IS similar to what you're saying... (as in... "hey, everyone else is doing it.. you dont' want to be SQUARE, do you? Comeon... the first one is free! ") I don't really buy it.

NOT everyone is doing it. I wouldnt' even say a majority of people do it. They may... but I don't think so. Now.. maybe in ten years when the current crop of kiddies grow up into full on leet speaking adults, (unless they outgrow that, which is a definate possibility) THEN it may be mainstream. But right now... it's just a slightly annoying thing that some people do, and other sigh and think to themselves "well, they probably just don't know any better".

Zeus - god of speaking all leet and stuff

A thought just occured to me... on a slightly similar note.

Many fads... and perhaps this leet speaking thing is among them... while perpetrated by kids, are not DESIGNED by kids.

Imagine if you will, a 13 year old girl watching a commercial... cool looking kids are walking around with text messengers, messaging each other in class in some lame leet speak. They get out of class, one girl is on the way home, and there's a message on her little box (Edit - heh - that wasn't intentional, but still funny) saying "PaR-T 2nite - B there!" and she giggles and heads off to the mall to buy a new pair of pink shoes.

I've seen my neices watch this kind of commercial, and seen their reactions to it. They want a text messenger, and they want to talk all cool and leet on it. And my sister, having a lot of money and no ability to handle money in any way, will buy them for her kids.



And yet... behind the scenes, that commercial was thought of and designed by a group of 40 year old businessmen. They sat around a board table and tried to figure out what kids do. "well, they like to talk with numbers". A bunch of squares sit around in business suits and power ties and make the commercials and shows that dictate what the fads actually are!

So maybe the kid fads are getting lamer lately not because the kids are getting lamer... but because the kids are SEEN as lamer by the people making up their fads, that's what the kids will become. Sure, the kids won't follow everything they see, but if they only seem to get examples of lame fads (which seems to be the case lately) they'll follow SOMETHING... and that will wind up being lame too.

Zeus - god of the history of leet speak. There will be a test on thursday.

What really irks me the most are the justifications. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck! Well, sorry. It's a goose. If I called a car a skateboard, you'd call me a moron. But using the same logic found here I can say "It has four wheels, gets me from A to B, and is faster than walking." Another is the "I'm lazy" nonsense. I have a friend that is a High School teacher, I have heard her complain that she receives Papers from student written in "texting short hand". While I understand that texting in complete words, let alone sentences can be tedious, please realize that there is a time and place for everything. If you endeavor to use proper spelling and grammar when you can, you will see how easy it actually becomes. And how much less you leave nitwits to use for ammunition when trying to avoid your argument.

Perhaps 'mainstream' is too strong a word. Unfortunately (don't forget I'm in the 'anti-toon' camp) it has become common enough that there are people I know that stretch from 11 to 40 who are using the term, and many other 'fad' terms.

It reminds me of the word 'lamer', which was a huge fad in certain areas for a long long time. Years went by until that word steadily drifted out of use, and it was terms like 'lol' and 'toon' that have steadily drifted in. With the explosion of the internet the scale of 'fad words' (maybe there's a board game in that one - 'Fadwords') has just increased.

If the internet had been so popular 15-20 years ago I'm sure 'lamer' would have been spread everywhere by the same crowd.

Its definitely true that these fads are often just company/corporate created things, or even if they aren't at first they are soon adopted by them in some way and used to make money - its the way of the world.

I don't necessarily like it though. Look at PokeMon - kids around the world went nuts for them. Nowadays people are also obsessed with the fake celebrity status and worthless professions like warbling badly into a microphone while computers process their voices. There will always be fads, and I wish some of them would die so the world would improve.

Maybe we should all get together and come up with ways to get people to believe that 'improving the world' is cool.

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Oh... one more thing... I think the reason people don't like the word toon is quite simple. Because it does NOT connotate animated characters. It implies childish animated characters.

Take anime for example. It has developed it's own language and culture. Why not just adopt the word "cartoon" or "japaneese cartoon" instead of anime? Because the word cartoon simply doesn't fit. Yes, they are animated. However, there is a qualitative difference between warner brothers and anime. There is a difference in artistic style, and this is a big enough difference to be obvious to everyone.

Essentially, cartoons are commonly thought of as referring to animated drawings designed for children. If it's not designed for children, often other nomenclature is used. So... those people who don't like the word "toon".... aren't just having a stick up their respective butts. They simply think you're demeaning and insulting the game they enjoy, and don't care for it.




Oh... and just for the heck of it I looked up the word "cartoon"... and what I suspected is correct. It has nothing to do with animation. Actually those are called "animated cartoons". A cartoon is merely an unrealistic drawing - it has nothing to do with animation of any sort. The difference between a drawing and a cartoon seems to be of exaggeration and unrealistic style... caricature is often associated with it in the various definitions, as is humorous satire. And I'm not sure that CoH would qualify as even 'animated cartoon' since it is not based upon a lack of reality... in fact, just the opposite. I think WoW would qualify however. The characters themselves are merely caricatures, after all. (with the exception of the females, it's hard to make a caricature hot)

Zeus - god of disillusionment

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if you watch the bugs bunny cartoons again you will see jokes that a child would not grasp.
as for design.. CoX is technically designed for a younger crowd. us grown-ups were not the real target market to start with.
anime is adult cartoons. it is called anime to denote that it is not based on our culture here in America. not all of it is in english. alot of it has blood guts and gore. some of it has nudity.
cartoons does denote drawings as well. have you looked at some of the comics? the Dark Horse ones?

CoX is very cartoonish. watch the civilians run. watch that lost Lt pull that 9 foot sword from the back of his neck. watch that grav person throw a car at someone.

the bottom line is it is a word. words mean different things to different people. to me these "characters" are toons. if you are offended by that i wont say sorry because it is not my fault. if you call them avatars i might get offended. is that your fault? no. it is mine. i should not get offended over some little thing like that. so what is you call them characters, toons, avatars, spots mutts or jeffs. in the end who cares? if i dont understand you i will ask.

but to get offended because someone calls these creations toons is just asking for high blood pressure.
so sit back and chill out. grab a beer and relax. some one will be along shortly to call these creations an entirely new word that will raise the hairs on the back of our necks. so for now take it easy.

These conversations always turn out to be very much the same as the "punctuation in player name" debate.

By this I mean it's a topic that largely doesn't matter, yet people will cite extremes to bolster the rightness of their opinion. Player xXW01v3rineXx will be used as an excuse for player Razerbolt. to be viewed unilaterally as an idiot. Likewise, someone who is somehow unable to conduct any sort of coherent correspondence without using shorthand or l33t will be used to prove the silly-ness of the player wo occasionally says "toon" or "lol" during an otherwise coherent /tell.

Use of any word in conversation is not copyright infringement. If it were "word of mouth" would be flushed down the toilet.

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I have a friend that is a High School teacher, I have heard her complain that she receives Papers from student written in "texting short hand".

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People seriously do this?!? I'd fail someone instantly for this. Perhaps give one warning, but after that...

That's disgusting, I mean really disgusting. Wow, I'm really bent out of shape about it

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I have a friend that is a High School teacher, I have heard her complain that she receives Papers from student written in "texting short hand".

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People seriously do this?!? I'd fail someone instantly for this. Perhaps give one warning, but after that...

That's disgusting, I mean really disgusting. Wow, I'm really bent out of shape about it

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I hafta agree there. That's not good, considering I believe the children are our future.

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But you're ignoring a very obvious point... and you seem like you even know you're ignoring it.

Yes.... a car has many names. Most things in the english language do. But calling a car various things doesn't irritate the hell out of a lot of people. You know that. I know that. It's common knowledge.

Yes, words conjure different things in different minds. But in this case... we KNOW what images these words conjure in various minds, so why act like we don't? It's one thing to use a word that annoys people when you don't know it annoys people... but in this case, use the word toon and you know damned well what the effect is. It doesn't matter if these people are stuck up jerks... although I give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not going go to that sort of asinine leap of illogic. It doesn't matter if there is something wrong with them instead of you. (although it is much easier if we always pass the blame for problems we encounter).

The simple fact of the matter is.. if you use the word toon, you are using a word that you KNOW has certain effects. If you don't want those effects (not conveying your point effectively, insulting the game, annoying some people) then simply don't use the word.



Oh... and I agree with you on the word avatar. It's more appropriate than toon, but I still dont' care for the term. I can understand the idea behind it... the users are like onto gods as far as the play world goes (like the movie tron) so these characters are indeed the avatars that explore the world for us. That's the explanation... But I don't really feel the need to think of myself as a god in reality. On the other hand, it is more accurate of a word, and has less negative connotations than calling all characters toons, essentially saying they're caricatures.

Zeus - god of exaggerations

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here is the simple problem.

if i say toon and you get offended/ticked off/whatever because you dont like the word whos fault is it? mine? how am i to know that word is one you do not like? so i am at fault because i cant read your mind?

the point is placing blame. if you blame me for you getting upset that i used a word that you dont like, who is really to blame there?

i know what the words conjure up in my mind. and to me toon conjures up an image very close to CoX. character conjures up any image that i have had of my many pencil and paper role playing game characters. sometimes character conjures up a TV or movie character.

this world has become a world of blame. everyone blames someone else for the things they feel. the real blame is only yourself. you are responsible for you. i am responsible for me. after all is said and done we have only ourselves to answer to.

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Take anime for example. It has developed it's own language and culture. Why not just adopt the word "cartoon" or "japaneese cartoon" instead of anime? Because the word cartoon simply doesn't fit.

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Yeah, and action figures aren't dolls ::rollseyes::

Anime is just a name someone came up with so they didn't feel so stupid about watching cartoons. A cartoon is a cartoon is a cartoon no matter what you want to call it.

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No, I"m talking about QUALITATIVE differences. It doesn't matter if you presonally approve of WHY they came up with a new name for it. People came up with a new name for it for a reason. If the world was filled only with you, then sure, you can dismiss that. But since that's not the case, perhaps we'd best just stick to admitting that we live in a world filled with other people. And unless everytime you speak, you're talking only to yourself, these "other people" of which I speak are the target audience for the words you choose.



And you may want to keep reading the post... because no.. speed racer isn't a cartoon. It's an animated cartoon. A cartoon is a still image. An exaggerated caricature to be precise. And I'd definately consider anime to be exaggerated caricatures, with the disproportionate features of the images. An animated cartoon is an animated form of that.

So to be fair, perhaps it would be a "toon"... or rather, some mmos could rightly be called an "animated toon". but if you're going to shorten cartoon, I suppose you'll shorten "animated" as well, so "ani toon". And that's of course only for those mmos that actually use caricatures, such as world of warcraft. For the rest of the MMOs, which are the vast majority of them, that have realistic animation and characters, well, they're not really even animated cartoons, because they're not cartoons at all.

Zeus - god of reading

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i will say only this.

go watch the cartoon network. they show more then still drawings there.

Yes people really do it and yes she fails them instantly, with the option to rewrite the paper in english, to be re-graded.

And "lamer" was popular enough to have been "leetified" into llama. It was ubiquitous in my FPS Ladder days.

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Having an opinion on something is fine. It's when someone goes up to a person that just said the word toon(bling), and telling him in his face he shouldn't be saying it, he should be saying character(money), seems close minded and arrogant.

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My point is that it's closed minded to think that the people who dont like something should just get over it. They may not like it for a reason. Even if that isn't YOUR reason, doesn't make it less valid. Many people don't like the term. Sticking your head in the sand and saying 'well, STOP hating the term" is closed minded.

and arrogance? Well, I see that on both sides of the debate. Many people on each side seem to think that everyone in the other side of the debate should stop whatever they're doing or feeling, because that way the problem would be gone and they won't have to do any effort themselves. THAT'S arrogance, and both sides are doing it. Both groups are saying "get over it, you have to accept what I like, but I don't have to accept what you like".



Personally... I can actually think of logical reasons to NOT use the term. how it may be inappropriate, etc... and I've yet to hear a reason that the word is superior to other words. I'm not saying that one group is right and one group is wrong, but if this were a competitive debate, the "pro toon" side hasn't seemed to try to make any actual compelling arguments. There just seems to be a consistant attitude of "haha.. you adults have to deal with us NOW, huh?" which seems an odd stance to take.



Oh... and I don't care for bling either... it sounds like an urban yokel. I don't know why anyone would want to sound like a yokel, urban or rural. (I'd rather be an out of touch old guy than an ignorant yokel)

A couple of years ago someone was using the word bling and i asked what it meant. The conversation went something like this:

me: Ok... I"ve heard this word bling... what is bling?
them: Well, if you buy something like a nice shirt, that is bling.
me: So bling would be clothing. My labcoat is bling?
them: No, that labcoat isn't worth anything.
me: So bling is expensive clothing?
them: Not just... jewlery can be bling too.
me: Ah, so anything expensive that you wear.
them: Well, other valuables are bling as well.
me: Ah! I understand. Bling is booty!
them: No, booty is totally different than bling. I would certainly hope someone wouldn't consider booty to be bling!
me: So gold peices, valuable objects, gems, jewlery, fine or rare clothings, expensive weaponry...
them: Right.
me: Booty!
them: No.. booty is a fine woman.
me: I would certainly hope someone wouldn't consider booty to be a fine woman.


It does seem to be a bit... behind the point to reuse slang, in a completely different form, before people stop using the first usage of the slang. (like booty or toon).

Zeus - god of confusion

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i will agree with bling... course i am as old as dirt too

now i will state this. i could not care less if you call your creations on CoX character, avatars, toons, guys, girls, things, dummies, idiots, hogs (but the hogs might mind), dogs (doubt dogs will care), cats (they will only care if they dont get fed), or if you call them red-pokka-dotted-round-faced-pixelstix. i just dont care. it does not hurt me in any way shape or form. it changes my world in no way what-so-ever. cars will still work and the sun still shines. the wind still blows and the birds still sing.

NOTE! i am not saying "get over it" nor and i saying "accept it" i am trying ot point out that of all the things to be getting your blood pressure higher this should be on the bottom of the list. if someone annoys you online put them on ignore. if you put everyone on ignore that uses the word toon more power to you. will i care? no. will it hurt me? no. will it change the world? no. will it make you feel better? i have no idea. if it does make you feel better feel free to max out the ignore list.

The Simpsons seems to me to be a Cartoon=Toon,

But.... since it has changed the way people view things... it's considered Animation....

Toon=Animation.......

What's the diff?

My heroes are just that HEROES. I will stop calling them Toons.....


(Is gulity of the Toon thing. )

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I'm arguing more for your case than against it.
I never implied YOU in particular were trying to correct anyone else.

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Cool. You were listed as replying to me, so I wasn't sure if I was being dressed down. Just checking, and what you're saying does make good sense.

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I'm arguing more for your case than against it.
I never implied YOU in particular were trying to correct anyone else.

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Cool. You were listed as replying to me, so I wasn't sure if I was being dressed down. Just checking, and what you're saying does make good sense.

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Thanks!! Want some pie? Or a cookie? I got lotsa leftovers.

This is stolen from the "Slow Turn" thread but I found it rather apropos.


Quoting ZadkielSalubri who is Quoting Ethereal_Savior:

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I see many people who seem to think people who find characters from the SNES era "hot" are losers or stupid. That always gets me because it shows the people criticizing don't understand the very simple notion of a character concept as enticing. They may be "just pixels," but they're accompanied by personality and backstory along with enough visual cues to form your own mental image. When we get down to it, it's the mental concept that captivates the person, not the little dots of color on the screen. And if that's somehow "wrong," prose fiction wouldn't even exist.

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Here here! They're also just from a generation where they can't fathom the concept of video games in anything less than 3D rendered amazing detail. I've had kids complain about the "lame" graphics of PS1 games, for gawd's sake!

Me, I can recall when I first beat Metroid for NES and saw that SAMUS was a woman and rushing to get close to the screen when she took off her armor at the end, to admire those 8 bit curves. Back then, a female leading character in a video game was nigh unheard of!

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You know what occured to me here too? This could be at my root for my feelings about the term "toon" as well. I come from an era when my "toon" was a green box and "->" was a sword. Nothing "cartoony" about any of that.

I picked up the term from my good buddy who got me playing this game in the first place. He plays the most pun-tacular characters around too. Perhaps I was doomed from the start. It was the first term for a character introduced to me in "short form" outside of PC from my GURPS days. Yeeesh... GURPS ate a signifigant hunk of my soul. Gamers of any kind are fraught with slang and acronyms is my point. I always figured it comes with the territory.

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My heroes are just that HEROES. I will stop calling them Toons.....

(Is gulity of the Toon thing. )

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Good for you!

The uninitiated often use terms which are inappropriate/inaccurate. I know people who call their computer cases "hard drives" until someone opens up the case and point out the actual hard drive and explains to them the difference. "Toon" is a similar misnomer. It's reflective of the way in which some people were introduced to the concept of super-heroes. They have the idea in their head that the concept of the super-hero is rooted in cartoons and animation, without realizing or understanding the stronger canonical connection to early sci-fi and fantasy literature (true novels and literature) and comic books.

Using the excuse that comic books or cartoons are the basis for the super hero genre reveals an ignorance of the history of the super hero. Doc Savage, the Shadow, Tarzan, John Carter of Mars, Zorro, Beowulf, Hercules, The Scarlet Pimpernel, Hugo Danner from Gladiator, and uncountable others formed the basic concept of super hero. All of these would be considered super heroes. None of these began as cartoons or drawings. They began as CHARACTERS in stories.

The historical precedent for nomenclature has been set. CHARACTER is more accurate, both from an RPG standpoint and a literary history standpoint. TOON is derivative and simplistic, and reflects a certain level of naivete.

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All kidding aside, it baffles me every time I see someone refer to their character as their "toon"... Maybe it's because I'm a P&P RPGer and not a video gamer, but where in the heck did that originate? I think it sounds pretty silly.

Thanks

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The first place I heard 'Toon' used was on The Realm many years back, where it was common. Apparently, the 'toon' vs. 'character' thing largely depends on what your introduction to online gaming culture was. There isn't really much of a difference.

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I use the term toon as well. It is absolutely precise. When you say "toon" there is no chance of miscommunication, it is exact. Character, Hero, Villian, etc, all come with a chance of misunderstanding. For that reason alone I would use it.
-Teklord

Meh, toon is fine, it all means the same. I'll use whatever word I feel like using. /shrug

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if i say toon and you get offended/ticked off/whatever because you dont like the word whos fault is it? mine? how am i to know that word is one you do not like? so i am at fault because i cant read your mind?

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It doesn't matter whose fault it is. What matters is that an effect WILL happen, YOU know it will happen, I know it will happen, so what does it matter WHY it will happen or whose fault it is THAT it will happen. How are you supposed to know it's a word people don't like? Well, that may be a moot issue in another debate, but not really here, since you already know a lot of people don't like the word toon. It's not a matter of mind reading here. It's a matter of established fact. Now if you didn't happen to know, that's one thing... but after you DO know, like you know now... the ignorance argument just doesn't hold water, that's my point.



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i know what the words conjure up in my mind.


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And if your target audience for all your speech is yourself, then this would make a difference. What I'm saying is that you're talking to OTHER PEOPLE... so THEIR interpretations are what matters. If you use words that conjure mental images that you don't intend, then you are simply not communicating effectively. In this case.. if you use a word that you KNOW conjures a different mental image in other people's minds, and choose to ignore that fact because you're insistant that they should have the same mental images that you do... that that's merely ignoring reality.

People don't have the same mental images that you do. So why assume they do? You don't know how they think specifically, but you know general trends. I'd say roughly 50% of anyone hearing the word "toon" is going to cringe a bit. Will that guy over there cringe? I don't know... but why irritate him when there are more appropriate word choices? It's not like there's ANY advantage of the term... while there ARE disadvantages.

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you are responsible for you. i am responsible for me. after all is said and done we have only ourselves to answer to.

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Quite so. But this isn't really relevant to the conversation. While you are responsible for your actions, you are also obligated to realize that the world is filled with differeent people... like it or not, like THEM or not, we have to deal with the fact that these other people are not just like we are.

Zeus - god of percentages

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i will say only this.

go watch the cartoon network. they show more then still drawings there.

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Yup. they show animated cartoons, and non-cartoon animation as well. They don't specialize in cartoons, despite the name. They specialize in animation.

Zeus - god of subtle differences

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I never said it "doesn't" affect others. I said it doesn't "devalue" in the normal everyday useage.

It is used all the time on these forums in a neutral, nonderogatory manner. If you think in everyday useage it devalues them then please have a word with the Devs who use the term.

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A term doesn't have to be used with intentional malice for it to devalue its subject. "Toon" carries an implication of shallowness for many. You know, becasue cartoons are two-dimensional etc. (And however 'cartoony' Co*'s visual style may be, it's interesting to note that the art is actually 3D, while cartoons are traditionally 2D.) A character has depth and is richly detailed. A cartoon is a shallow caricature. However much you protest, this IS the interpretation that many people (some but not all) attach to this word - yes, in everyday usage.

And please don't hide behind the skirts of the devs. They're not some kind of magic gods who are always right about MMO culture at large. Some people attach negative connotations to "toon", and some don't, and the devs are people. It's - gasp - even possible that there are devs that don't like the term either. (They probably just have better things to do than take a stand in such a trivial argument.) But either way, their opinions don't actually hold any more water than anybody else's.