Deathrite

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again the heroes need bases

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pony up and go buy CoV. it should be real cheap now.

he thinks there is nothing else like bases in the MMO world?

he shoudl go play EQ1. the guild halls are a good bit like bases but with actual useful stuff there...

the problem with bases are there is nothing to do there... sit and look at the walls? sit and chat with SG mates? but mingling is what pocket d is for... so bases are obsolete already.
i agree with your take on the issue. statesman has no clue what the players want. he is so out of touch i have to wonder if he has ever played any RPG.

dude... where's my post?

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Having an opinion on something is fine. It's when someone goes up to a person that just said the word toon(bling), and telling him in his face he shouldn't be saying it, he should be saying character(money), seems close minded and arrogant.

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My point is that it's closed minded to think that the people who dont like something should just get over it. They may not like it for a reason. Even if that isn't YOUR reason, doesn't make it less valid. Many people don't like the term. Sticking your head in the sand and saying 'well, STOP hating the term" is closed minded.

and arrogance? Well, I see that on both sides of the debate. Many people on each side seem to think that everyone in the other side of the debate should stop whatever they're doing or feeling, because that way the problem would be gone and they won't have to do any effort themselves. THAT'S arrogance, and both sides are doing it. Both groups are saying "get over it, you have to accept what I like, but I don't have to accept what you like".



Personally... I can actually think of logical reasons to NOT use the term. how it may be inappropriate, etc... and I've yet to hear a reason that the word is superior to other words. I'm not saying that one group is right and one group is wrong, but if this were a competitive debate, the "pro toon" side hasn't seemed to try to make any actual compelling arguments. There just seems to be a consistant attitude of "haha.. you adults have to deal with us NOW, huh?" which seems an odd stance to take.



Oh... and I don't care for bling either... it sounds like an urban yokel. I don't know why anyone would want to sound like a yokel, urban or rural. (I'd rather be an out of touch old guy than an ignorant yokel)

A couple of years ago someone was using the word bling and i asked what it meant. The conversation went something like this:

me: Ok... I"ve heard this word bling... what is bling?
them: Well, if you buy something like a nice shirt, that is bling.
me: So bling would be clothing. My labcoat is bling?
them: No, that labcoat isn't worth anything.
me: So bling is expensive clothing?
them: Not just... jewlery can be bling too.
me: Ah, so anything expensive that you wear.
them: Well, other valuables are bling as well.
me: Ah! I understand. Bling is booty!
them: No, booty is totally different than bling. I would certainly hope someone wouldn't consider booty to be bling!
me: So gold peices, valuable objects, gems, jewlery, fine or rare clothings, expensive weaponry...
them: Right.
me: Booty!
them: No.. booty is a fine woman.
me: I would certainly hope someone wouldn't consider booty to be a fine woman.


It does seem to be a bit... behind the point to reuse slang, in a completely different form, before people stop using the first usage of the slang. (like booty or toon).

Zeus - god of confusion

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i will agree with bling... course i am as old as dirt too

now i will state this. i could not care less if you call your creations on CoX character, avatars, toons, guys, girls, things, dummies, idiots, hogs (but the hogs might mind), dogs (doubt dogs will care), cats (they will only care if they dont get fed), or if you call them red-pokka-dotted-round-faced-pixelstix. i just dont care. it does not hurt me in any way shape or form. it changes my world in no way what-so-ever. cars will still work and the sun still shines. the wind still blows and the birds still sing.

NOTE! i am not saying "get over it" nor and i saying "accept it" i am trying ot point out that of all the things to be getting your blood pressure higher this should be on the bottom of the list. if someone annoys you online put them on ignore. if you put everyone on ignore that uses the word toon more power to you. will i care? no. will it hurt me? no. will it change the world? no. will it make you feel better? i have no idea. if it does make you feel better feel free to max out the ignore list.

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Take anime for example. It has developed it's own language and culture. Why not just adopt the word "cartoon" or "japaneese cartoon" instead of anime? Because the word cartoon simply doesn't fit.

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Yeah, and action figures aren't dolls ::rollseyes::

Anime is just a name someone came up with so they didn't feel so stupid about watching cartoons. A cartoon is a cartoon is a cartoon no matter what you want to call it.

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No, I"m talking about QUALITATIVE differences. It doesn't matter if you presonally approve of WHY they came up with a new name for it. People came up with a new name for it for a reason. If the world was filled only with you, then sure, you can dismiss that. But since that's not the case, perhaps we'd best just stick to admitting that we live in a world filled with other people. And unless everytime you speak, you're talking only to yourself, these "other people" of which I speak are the target audience for the words you choose.



And you may want to keep reading the post... because no.. speed racer isn't a cartoon. It's an animated cartoon. A cartoon is a still image. An exaggerated caricature to be precise. And I'd definately consider anime to be exaggerated caricatures, with the disproportionate features of the images. An animated cartoon is an animated form of that.

So to be fair, perhaps it would be a "toon"... or rather, some mmos could rightly be called an "animated toon". but if you're going to shorten cartoon, I suppose you'll shorten "animated" as well, so "ani toon". And that's of course only for those mmos that actually use caricatures, such as world of warcraft. For the rest of the MMOs, which are the vast majority of them, that have realistic animation and characters, well, they're not really even animated cartoons, because they're not cartoons at all.

Zeus - god of reading

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i will say only this.

go watch the cartoon network. they show more then still drawings there.

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But you're ignoring a very obvious point... and you seem like you even know you're ignoring it.

Yes.... a car has many names. Most things in the english language do. But calling a car various things doesn't irritate the hell out of a lot of people. You know that. I know that. It's common knowledge.

Yes, words conjure different things in different minds. But in this case... we KNOW what images these words conjure in various minds, so why act like we don't? It's one thing to use a word that annoys people when you don't know it annoys people... but in this case, use the word toon and you know damned well what the effect is. It doesn't matter if these people are stuck up jerks... although I give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not going go to that sort of asinine leap of illogic. It doesn't matter if there is something wrong with them instead of you. (although it is much easier if we always pass the blame for problems we encounter).

The simple fact of the matter is.. if you use the word toon, you are using a word that you KNOW has certain effects. If you don't want those effects (not conveying your point effectively, insulting the game, annoying some people) then simply don't use the word.



Oh... and I agree with you on the word avatar. It's more appropriate than toon, but I still dont' care for the term. I can understand the idea behind it... the users are like onto gods as far as the play world goes (like the movie tron) so these characters are indeed the avatars that explore the world for us. That's the explanation... But I don't really feel the need to think of myself as a god in reality. On the other hand, it is more accurate of a word, and has less negative connotations than calling all characters toons, essentially saying they're caricatures.

Zeus - god of exaggerations

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here is the simple problem.

if i say toon and you get offended/ticked off/whatever because you dont like the word whos fault is it? mine? how am i to know that word is one you do not like? so i am at fault because i cant read your mind?

the point is placing blame. if you blame me for you getting upset that i used a word that you dont like, who is really to blame there?

i know what the words conjure up in my mind. and to me toon conjures up an image very close to CoX. character conjures up any image that i have had of my many pencil and paper role playing game characters. sometimes character conjures up a TV or movie character.

this world has become a world of blame. everyone blames someone else for the things they feel. the real blame is only yourself. you are responsible for you. i am responsible for me. after all is said and done we have only ourselves to answer to.

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Oh... one more thing... I think the reason people don't like the word toon is quite simple. Because it does NOT connotate animated characters. It implies childish animated characters.

Take anime for example. It has developed it's own language and culture. Why not just adopt the word "cartoon" or "japaneese cartoon" instead of anime? Because the word cartoon simply doesn't fit. Yes, they are animated. However, there is a qualitative difference between warner brothers and anime. There is a difference in artistic style, and this is a big enough difference to be obvious to everyone.

Essentially, cartoons are commonly thought of as referring to animated drawings designed for children. If it's not designed for children, often other nomenclature is used. So... those people who don't like the word "toon".... aren't just having a stick up their respective butts. They simply think you're demeaning and insulting the game they enjoy, and don't care for it.




Oh... and just for the heck of it I looked up the word "cartoon"... and what I suspected is correct. It has nothing to do with animation. Actually those are called "animated cartoons". A cartoon is merely an unrealistic drawing - it has nothing to do with animation of any sort. The difference between a drawing and a cartoon seems to be of exaggeration and unrealistic style... caricature is often associated with it in the various definitions, as is humorous satire. And I'm not sure that CoH would qualify as even 'animated cartoon' since it is not based upon a lack of reality... in fact, just the opposite. I think WoW would qualify however. The characters themselves are merely caricatures, after all. (with the exception of the females, it's hard to make a caricature hot)

Zeus - god of disillusionment

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if you watch the bugs bunny cartoons again you will see jokes that a child would not grasp.
as for design.. CoX is technically designed for a younger crowd. us grown-ups were not the real target market to start with.
anime is adult cartoons. it is called anime to denote that it is not based on our culture here in America. not all of it is in english. alot of it has blood guts and gore. some of it has nudity.
cartoons does denote drawings as well. have you looked at some of the comics? the Dark Horse ones?

CoX is very cartoonish. watch the civilians run. watch that lost Lt pull that 9 foot sword from the back of his neck. watch that grav person throw a car at someone.

the bottom line is it is a word. words mean different things to different people. to me these "characters" are toons. if you are offended by that i wont say sorry because it is not my fault. if you call them avatars i might get offended. is that your fault? no. it is mine. i should not get offended over some little thing like that. so what is you call them characters, toons, avatars, spots mutts or jeffs. in the end who cares? if i dont understand you i will ask.

but to get offended because someone calls these creations toons is just asking for high blood pressure.
so sit back and chill out. grab a beer and relax. some one will be along shortly to call these creations an entirely new word that will raise the hairs on the back of our necks. so for now take it easy.

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I use both terms, they mean the same to me. It's not like we don't know what the other is refering too when either term is used, they both serve the same purpose in conversation.

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I don't agree.

From what I can tell, there are two terms you can use. character and toon. The word character leads to a certain end - that everyone knows what you're talking about. That's pretty much all it leads to.

Toon, on the other hand, has a slightly different effect. It clearly annoys many people. It clearly makes some people think less of you for various reasons that don't really matter. It gets the point across as well, but it does appear (and you can tell with threads like this) to have other effects as well.



So... in choosing your words, perhaps the intent just doesn't matter sometimes. Sometimes the effect of words is more important than the intent, because the entire point of language is to express a point - a point that is supposed to carry with it certain connotations. And I think the people using the word "toon" are simply not expressing themselves well. Because the words they use carry connotations that I don't think they intend, therefore they are choosing the WRONG words.


For some audiences, I'm sure it's fine. But there seem to be a decent amount of people who don't respond well to the term. You can rationalize wanting to use the word all you want, but eventually you really need to look at the FUNCTION of a debated word. It doesn't matter if you agree with it. Your agreement over whether or not people SHOULD get upset over the word toon has no effect whatsoever on the reality that they do.

Zeus - god of function over form. At times.

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interesting points.. but... if i say that all people who use the term "character" to refer to the creation on CoX are stuck up jerks then i am sure i would offend people.

take a look at this.

the correct term for automobile is also called a car, vehicle (which might be said to be more correct), ride, horseless carriage, or mechanical horse. which do you call it? does it matter? will it change the shape and way the automobile is used or how it works? can a word physically change something? each name produces a different mental picture and THAT is what people have a problem with.

i see bugs bunny takeout a bat from nowhere and hit elmer fudd. i see a scrapper take out a sword from nowhere and whack a person throwing fire from his hamds. CoX is more cartoonish then the other MMOs i have played. where does the axe tanker keep his axe? where does that scrapper keep that sword? and that mace.. looks painful.

the words i say conjure images in my mind. will they conjure the same images in your mind? i doubt it. if you have ever run a PnP RPG you would know you have to put in alot of detail most times to get a clear picture across. an avatar to me is the earthly incarnation of a god. so i hate that word used as it normally is on these places. do i get my knickers all in a wad over it? no. its a word. words change in meaning and use.

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All kidding aside, it baffles me every time I see someone refer to their character as their "toon"... Maybe it's because I'm a P&P RPGer and not a video gamer, but where in the heck did that originate? I think it sounds pretty silly.

Thanks

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I use the term character my self...because the term toon or alt i feel like it lets others know you could care less.

I take pride in my characters...

I am surprised you have not noticed people saying the other idiotic phrase.. "I rolled up..." as in "I rolled up a toon last night" or "i rolled another alt last night"

I like the terms generated or created.
Since in no way did i roll dice or create a random character...since this game does not have that feature.

But with such a culture as the human race's throw away mentality...and how it has gotten worse over the years...i am not surprised by the term toon or alt.

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Rolled up isn't on the same level as toon. Toon has Loony Toons conotations, rolled up has D&D conotations. And D&D would have more deep characters than Bugs Bunny.

I just dislike toon because it trivilises the character. I spend a lot of times on my theme, power selections and costume. Calling it a cartoon demeans it.

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i can understand that. my first MMO was EQ.. and i had/have characters there. then i got CoH... and after 2 years of playing and making/deleting around 200 toons they are no longer true characters.

i have PnP D&D characters i have played for years and years. but once i saw that most MMO "characters" follow some kind of cookie cutter mold... they just turned into toons... animated characters that are set in a universe where the "normal" laws do not apply.

but if you must call them characters feel free. but some of us will call them toons. some will have other names.

i for one hate the saying " i rolled..." when reffering to "characters" on a MMO. over 20 years of D&D makes me miss my dice at times...

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All kidding aside, it baffles me every time I see someone refer to their character as their "toon"... Maybe it's because I'm a P&P RPGer and not a video gamer, but where in the heck did that originate? I think it sounds pretty silly.

Thanks

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i played PnP RPGs for about 28 years before getting into MMOs... and i call the MMO characters "toons" because they are animated and are very limited in what they can do. my characters in PnP RPGs could pick up anything they could carry. they could carry a rope, a bucket, a small child (with injury of course), and were mine to control in every way shape and form. MMOs toons are handed to us. we get to pick some of the outer look but we are very limited in our actions. most times even the outer look is limited.

i call them toons because they are animated versions that while some are very close to how i imagine them or want them to be they are never JUST right. in a PnP RPG i can describe my character and while you might not see him in your mind how i see him... in my mind he is JUST how i want him to be.

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well i cant see what else you would call "nerfing" burn

posi might not remember it but its one of those powers that we "use" to use

since hes not nerfing things..maybe he can tell us when he plans on fixing the power he messed up then?

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I would call Burn's change many things:

Power alteration
Reduced in effectiveness
Strength modification
Debuff to the power
etc.

Just because I don't use the word "nerf" does not mean things will never be adjusted in a downward direction.

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history will note... the Reign of Poitron, The Debuffer of Power

does have a kinda ring to it...

a rose by any other name...

again Bunker you forget that blaster dont have the defense and hps of tankers. every boss i have come across in the game so far (up to lvl 20) that has been an equal level boss can and has taken me out with 2 or 3 hits. 4 if i have hover on and i DO have defense on that hover. and yes more then one.

ok Bunker... you play a fire firre TANKER.... and you are complaining about blaster AoEs???? i PLAY a fire fire BLASTER and all an AoE does for me on reds and purples is get me a fast ticket to the hospital. i suggest you make sure of the level of blaster doing the AoEs before complaining.
if anyone should be nerfed its you fire fire tankers... from what you said they are WAY too strong. 100 hours to lvl 40???

ok to model22 i have to comment... you want more grouping in the game... well i come from everquest.. and they did that.. promoted grouping. they also screwed up the game so much that not only tons left.. but those that stay now find they have to get groups to kill mobs 1, 2, even 3 levels BELOW then (at higher levels). i for one see no real issue with AoEs in CoH. the only alpha strikes i can do are on either good bit lower then me critters or with someone there with AoE root.
please do not beg and plead and hound the dervs for more reasons to group. that will lead to a game like EQ. and if you love EQ then you hate CoH. and if you hate CoH why are you playing it?
please dont screw up a VERY good game like CoH.