Is soul storm broke?looking for dev response.
By
Abigail Frost,
Posted on: 2006-07-26 13:27 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Whoa. Those Stalkers I've seen with that patron are going to be TICKED when that happens and no respeccing out of it. yeesh!
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Unless they're like.. eight years old, I really don't have an ounce of pity for anyone who takes that spin on this. Someone had to have been nuts to think that the current behavior was intended or balanced. That it would be corrected was so totally obvious to me it's just not funny.
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Even an eight-year-old should know better than to want to play checkers vs. an opponent who only gets three pieces.
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To be honest this isn't unexpected, but it just highlights how unfair being locked into patrons is.
It's not my fault that they screwed up. They had this on test for quite a while, in development even longer and yet it made it through into the live game. Now I'm stuck in a patron pool that is much diminished in it's pvp usefulness and unlike everyone hit by the smoke grenade I'm trapped in it.
Before I took any of my patron powers I read up on them. I checked the Ghost widow thread. No mention of it being bugged there at all. I checked the known issues page. Nothing. If in over 20 pages of discussion about the powers Ghost Widow grants nothing is mentioned about it having a known issue thats due to be fixed then the faint belief that it 'might just work like Ghost Widows' took seed. Her version ignored my integration and eventually after much stupidity I realized that a preemptive bf every 30 seconds would keep me safe from it. The player version is nowhere near that effective.
If they're going to screw up, they should fix their problems properly and thats not just the power it's all the players caught in their wake.
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And it all of that research you did, which i commend btw, do it ever once say anything about the hold being unbrakeable? Hmm? Didn't think so. When they fix the bug, you will have the power that was disgribed in all the research you read up on. It's its as good as any hold the other PPP's have... it's not better, but then, it shouldn't be anyway. And it was, by leaps and bounds. That should have been the second clue... oh, what was the first clue you ask? The fact NO other power in the GAME is unbrakeable with a BF. THAT should have been the first clue.
And yeah, this was BIG bug for miss FOO, i agree. I'm betting they where hopping that, since it's only a problem in PvP, that they could put off fixing it since it only effects a rather small # of people. Not a smart move IMO, but hey, what do i know.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
I didn't know it worked the way it did going into the patron arc no, but I had thought it might be special. The fact that he'd said the PPP's would be better, that he'd singled out Soul Storm wasn't something I had missed. Look at whirlwind, they dropped hints that it was better than most people thought and really it was. I guess that's a bad example since they ner.. fixed it also, but it helps to illustrate the point that sometimes not everything a power does is spelled out in bold.
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I didn't know it worked the way it did going into the patron arc no, but I had thought it might be special. The fact that he'd said the PPP's would be better, that he'd singled out Soul Storm wasn't something I had missed. Look at whirlwind, they dropped hints that it was better than most people thought and really it was. I guess that's a bad example since they ner.. fixed it also, but it helps to illustrate the point that sometimes not everything a power does is spelled out in bold.
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I can agree with that to a point, but something of this magnatuide would be spelled out. They would tell you, "Oh BTW, once you hold someone, they can't get loss." And they didn't. And it's the only power like it in all of CoX... so, if you look at it objectively, it's easy to see this was a bug from the start.
And who's to say the powers aren't better? I haven't compared them side by side, but better could mean, longer base duration, cost less end, recharge faster, ect. And cool factor was more then likely how it looked, the anamation it used. It IS cool.
But to think they'd make one power THAT special is unrealistic. Any MMO vet would tell you that you can't have one power outsine all the rest, or it'll cause a massive imbalance in the game, with everyone taking IT.
There has to be balance among the PPP's. If Ghost widows hold was unbrakeable, the all need to be, or else, everyones going to take hers. And that's not even dilving into the matter of, a stalker getting a hold that's better then a domanoters primary hold... No one can resonable argue that a stalker should have a better PvP hold then domonater, and yet, at present, that's what we have.
And you admit you even kind of saw this coming. Which ment some of this had to be banging around in that head of ours. So something about this power had to strike you as being too good to be true... and you know the old saying, if it seems to good to be true, it more then likely is.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
Look, cut me some slack, you seem a reasonable guy and I'm not saying no no no you can't fix it. My first post in this thread said I saw it comming, but I hope they give peolpe stuck in the pool the option to leave it. There is nothing in these pools that justifies the fact that we are stuck with them. Especially when they're apparently not finished working on them well after going live.
Lets look at it as it shall be for the stalker holds after this change, GW vs BS.
Ghost Widow: acc: 100%, range 80', cost 10.66, activation 2.17 recharge 32 effect: 3.57 mag 8 second hold + 33.6 negative damage
Black Scorpion: acc:105%, range 60', cost 10.66, activation 2, recharge 32 effect: 3.57 mag 8 second hold + 50% run fly and jump speed for 15 seconds 50% recharge rate reduction for 15 seconds disable fly.
So 30 damage and 20' range vs all of that. Mako's isn't much better but has an anti fly built in. The mu lets you stack end drain. Ghost Widows goes from easily the best, to the worst. How many people still have whirlwind in their builds these days? Somewhat less than had it in it's heyday.
The rest of my replies are spent trying to explain that yes I know it's powerful but it's not an instant I win in pvp if you have a clue. Heroes demonstrate that constantly. Would everyone take it if it was left alone? Probably almost everyone so it does have to go (I get that). (Strange how pretty much every scrapper and tanker I meet in RV has FA eh? .
GW's does damage and Sirroco's drains a wee bit of end. I wouldn't really consider hers "worst". You want worst hold? Try Petrifying Gaze. It does zero damage (to any stat), zero debuff, and has the worst duration/recharge ratio out there.
GW's hold is fine.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Well the devs have confirmed that it will be fixed and is not working as intended. Thanks castle.
That being said I really liked that power and I dont have a character that can get it. In my opinion CoX needs more powers like this. Peeps act like its non-resistable, however if you pre-emptively eat a bf you have no prob. I like the fact that this was a hold that, if you slip and dont have mez resist, there is going to be consequence other than eating a purple pill and retoggling up. I also like the fact that this power was something that heros look at and say "Wow I wish I could have that power", like I do for so many of the heroes epics. I agree that it is unfair that corruptors and stalkers can get it, when in its current form it would validate the dominator archtype. A big reason I say that is I have a 43 dom and no high level stalks or corrupts. Im not saying the devs shouldnt fix the power (because it is not working as intended and invalidates the other patron choices), Im just saying that a power that acts like that is cool and different.
I am PL in RL.
Freedom- Magnet Man, Hott Sauce, Stand-Up Comic
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Well, it's just that since we're promised "hard numbers" for PPPs, you'd think the Holds would be better than usual.
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And where are the numbers wrong? The problem is that no hold in the game is supposed to be unresistible. Breakfrees not working if you are caught in Soul Storm is not working as intended.
And I have no problem with Soul Storm outperforming, say, Ice Corr holds. But no hold should be better than a Dom's hold. Currently with Soul Storm being the only unresistible hold in the game, it is infinitely better than anything else out there for PvP.
You are bitter because your "Ha ha I laugh at your twisting body while setting up AS and talking smack and you cant do anything about it" button is going bye bye.
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Nice assumption, but no, I don't even PvP with my Stalker.
I just thought that we finally have what the devs gave us, something new and different, and then poof, it's gonna be turned into something "normal." There was a difference between me being upset it'll be changed into a normal hold and me being "bitter" because my ""Ha ha I laugh at your twisting body while setting up AS and talking smack and you cant do anything about it."
I was never adverse to the idea of making it weaker than usual becase it was obviously overpowered, I'd just thought it would outperform the normal Holds.
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Look, cut me some slack, you seem a reasonable guy and I'm not saying no no no you can't fix it. My first post in this thread said I saw it comming, but I hope they give peolpe stuck in the pool the option to leave it. There is nothing in these pools that justifies the fact that we are stuck with them. Especially when they're apparently not finished working on them well after going live.
Lets look at it as it shall be for the stalker holds after this change, GW vs BS.
Ghost Widow: acc: 100%, range 80', cost 10.66, activation 2.17 recharge 32 effect: 3.57 mag 8 second hold + 33.6 negative damage
Black Scorpion: acc:105%, range 60', cost 10.66, activation 2, recharge 32 effect: 3.57 mag 8 second hold + 50% run fly and jump speed for 15 seconds 50% recharge rate reduction for 15 seconds disable fly.
So 30 damage and 20' range vs all of that. Mako's isn't much better but has an anti fly built in. The mu lets you stack end drain. Ghost Widows goes from easily the best, to the worst. How many people still have whirlwind in their builds these days? Somewhat less than had it in it's heyday.
The rest of my replies are spent trying to explain that yes I know it's powerful but it's not an instant I win in pvp if you have a clue. Heroes demonstrate that constantly. Would everyone take it if it was left alone? Probably almost everyone so it does have to go (I get that). (Strange how pretty much every scrapper and tanker I meet in RV has FA eh? .
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Well, being stuck in your PPP is a whole nother argument, and one i'd agree with you on. I really think being locked in to them isn't the greatest idea, but it's not my call. I just don't want them wasting time coming up with a way to let the GW people remake there choice. If they were to do that, theyy should do it for everyone. And I don't think they will.
And the REASON i don't think they should get to repick is this. The ONLY people who can complain about this change are PvPers, who knew the power was unbrakable, and wantted an unfair edge in PvP. Anyone else, how took the power for concept reasons, for style, or to run GW's story arch, they are totally uneffected by this change. Only the people who wanted to exploit an unbrakeable hold will be really adversily effected. And I have a hard time mustering up sympith for them, i'm sorry. (not saying you are one of them people, just to be clear.)
But like i said, if they make PPP's respecable to everyone, i'm all for that, but just for these guys, no, i think not.
But should they make a habit of "twicking" these powers, they really NEED to make them respecable. Somehow.
*** and as for FA, yeah, I'd consider it a problem power too. I fully expect SOMETHING to be done eventually, but this is an example of poor forsight on the dev's part, not a bug, like GW's hold.***
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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But what would surprise me is if it was a bug for Ghost Widow and that we should be able to BF out of hers and they fix it so we can. That'll shock the hell out of me. 'Cause, see, then it wouldn't be har... uhh... I mean fun enough.
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Since the bug is in the animation, not the power, any fix will affect Ghost Widow's power, as well as the patron power version.
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Please tell me you're not going to screw up yet another one my toons but with this time with getting rid of the cool animations of the power. Please tell me whatever you're doing will still allow the animation effects of the power that are in place now, will still be happening after this "fix" to the break free problems. If you make it just some boring hold I'll be quit upset. The spinning around part of the power is what makes it so cool! Please figure out some way to make break frees work, but not take away the animation.
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But what would surprise me is if it was a bug for Ghost Widow and that we should be able to BF out of hers and they fix it so we can. That'll shock the hell out of me. 'Cause, see, then it wouldn't be har... uhh... I mean fun enough.
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Since the bug is in the animation, not the power, any fix will affect Ghost Widow's power, as well as the patron power version.
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Please tell me you're not going to screw up yet another one my toons but with this time with getting rid of the cool animations of the power. Please tell me whatever you're doing will still allow the animation effects of the power that are in place now, will still be happening after this "fix" to the break free problems. If you make it just some boring hold I'll be quit upset. The spinning around part of the power is what makes it so cool! Please figure out some way to make break frees work, but not take away the animation.
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I'm not a dev, but my bet is that the animation will continue for as long as the break free isn't used. If there is no break free, the power and the animation subsists until it expires. If a break free is used the animation dissipates as the power is negated.
I can hardly see them allowing the animation to continue when the power is negated by counter measures.
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!
It's ok if the break free works and they drop on their face to ground. I just don't want the animation to go away for those who don't have a break free. I want to spin them till they r dizzy and puke.
On their face... probably not, but likely will land on their feet as though from a short fall.
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!
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Well, it's just that since we're promised "hard numbers" for PPPs, you'd think the Holds would be better than usual.
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And where are the numbers wrong? The problem is that no hold in the game is supposed to be unresistible. Breakfrees not working if you are caught in Soul Storm is not working as intended.
And I have no problem with Soul Storm outperforming, say, Ice Corr holds. But no hold should be better than a Dom's hold. Currently with Soul Storm being the only unresistible hold in the game, it is infinitely better than anything else out there for PvP.
You are bitter because your "Ha ha I laugh at your twisting body while setting up AS and talking smack and you cant do anything about it" button is going bye bye.
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Nice assumption, but no, I don't even PvP with my Stalker.
I just thought that we finally have what the devs gave us, something new and different, and then poof, it's gonna be turned into something "normal." There was a difference between me being upset it'll be changed into a normal hold and me being "bitter" because my ""Ha ha I laugh at your twisting body while setting up AS and talking smack and you cant do anything about it."
I was never adverse to the idea of making it weaker than usual becase it was obviously overpowered, I'd just thought it would outperform the normal Holds.
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First of all I was rude and snarky in my previous post and I apologise for that.
Secondly, you said above that you thought it would outperform the normal holds. What is your baseline for a "normal hold"? Ice Blast's freeze ray or Ice Control's Block of Ice?
I am of the opinion that no PPP power should outperform an equivalent power of the AT that the power is optimised for. Dark Obliteration does not outperform a Corr's AoE. Dark Embrace for a Dom provides less resistance than it does for a Brute. Soul Storm should not outperform a Dom's ST hold.
M'Teru couldn't get the job done. So she sent Mot to Astoria. Bad call.
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Please tell me you're not going to screw up yet another one my toons but with this time with getting rid of the cool animations of the power. Please tell me whatever you're doing will still allow the animation effects of the power that are in place now, will still be happening after this "fix" to the break free problems. If you make it just some boring hold I'll be quit upset. The spinning around part of the power is what makes it so cool! Please figure out some way to make break frees work, but not take away the animation.
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That is the goal. We really like the animation since it is such a signature move. No promises, but we really don't want to change the look of the power.
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Matt Miller:
The Patron Powers are stronger and more powerful than the equivalent powers in City of Heroes (the Ancillary Power Pools), because there is less diversification and the fact that Patron choices are permanent alterations to your character
That and having also read this: Talkin' 'bout Soul Storm
(relevant part of the interview inserted here):
Will the new power sets unbalance the game a bit to the Villains favor? What is your favorite new power set and abilities?
We certainly hope that there is a balance maintained between the two games, but sometimes its like comparing apples to oranges. At the end of the day you have to realize they are both food, with some commonalities like they both have calories and sugar content. We have to play with those commonalities to make sure that things remain balanced between the two games.
My personal favorite Patron Power Pool would be Ghost Widows. The Soul Storm ability is simply too awesome for words.
All this made me think that you know, maybe it wasn't a [censored] bug and it was actually just a cool power. Powerful in pvp: Yes. Easily countered by any experienced PvP'ers?: Yes.
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Ok, so we should blame Matt Miller for this power making it into the game in it's current state? Can I have HIS e-mail address so I can send him my Demo of being "pwn'd" in RV by some obnoxious Stalker who thinks he's so awesome for holding be while I pop 6 breakfrees only to have him AS me and dance over my body. Oh yea thanks Matt Miller... Thank you very much.
-The Elite-[50's]Va'Leria�X'hian�Stormy Monday�Radical Burn�Mo'Mentum�Heat-Source�Professor Blaze
-World Wide Evil, Inc-[50s]Soulfire�Perma.Frost�Kold Soul�Foxphyre�Pitch-Black�Corrupt Fusion�Cassanova Brown�Tyler Thorn�Iron Siren�Solaura�Fortunauta Wade�Look'Alike�Arctic Engineer
Note to Castle: proceed to QA department. Facilitate communication. Terminate hostilities.
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Ok, so we should blame Matt Miller for this power making it into the game in it's current state? Can I have HIS e-mail address so I can send him my Demo of being "pwn'd" in RV by some obnoxious Stalker who thinks he's so awesome for holding be while I pop 6 breakfrees only to have him AS me and dance over my body. Oh yea thanks Matt Miller... Thank you very much.
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The "awesomeness" you speak of is the neat animation. Not the BUG (note, BUG) in which it ignores Breakfrees. The devs obviously never designed it to be the only power in the game that completely trumps mez resistance, that'd just be silly. So, once the game's patched so the power acts like a normal hold (albeit a cool looking one) all will be well.
Global @Twoflower / MA Creator & Pro Indie Game Developer.
Mission Architect Works: DIY Laser Moonbase (Dev Choice!), An Internship in the Fine Art of Revenge (2009 MA Award Winner!) and many more! Plus Brand New Arcs for Issue 21!
So far what I gather is that the bug is caused because the animation is basically a prolonged knockdown so a breakfree cannot be used?
Is it possible to just allow breakfrees to be used while knocked down (since they can be used while held etc.)? Even if breakfrees would then be able to be used to negate a knockdown, if you were able to set its knockdown protection to like 1 second all it would be able to do would get you up quicker normally.
I don't think that makes sense but I'm just thinking out loud - because I would be so unhapy if they have to change the animation. I'd rather it just be an uber-hold 
@Bengal Fist - Freedom - Authority SG
Bengal Fist (SS/EA) - Thirt3en (Time/Elec) - Aussi (Elec/Shield) - Potamoi (Water/Time) - Parkr (Staff/Ela)
Break Frees provide KB protection already...
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No, it isn't. Maybe it's doing better than some other MMOs, but either the QA team here is crap, or the Cryptic coders are so woefully slapdash as to make the QA department overworked. The list of very major and very easily caught bugs that they've overlooked is surprising.
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I've played a lot of different games and the bug list here doesn't seem to be any larger then they are elsewhere, at least in my experience. There will always be bugs, both big and small, no matter how good their QA departments are at either Cryptic or NCSoft, and who knows what exactly needs to be done to correct the seemingly easily caught ones that squeak their way through. If it's not destroying your ability to enjoy the game, I'd vote for patience.
"His Imperial Majesty's Minister of Restraints and Leather" -LHF
Two naughty acronym teams / Ascension / Convenient / Artic and the Chillz / Fap / Other teams I can't remember (sorry.. mind is goin')
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I'd vote for patience
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What is this "patience" you speak of? I cannot find it in my 'Forum Posting for Dummies' book. Please explain. Or sum up.
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Ok, so we should blame Matt Miller for this power making it into the game in it's current state? Can I have HIS e-mail address so I can send him my Demo of being "pwn'd" in RV by some obnoxious Stalker who thinks he's so awesome for holding be while I pop 6 breakfrees only to have him AS me and dance over my body. Oh yea thanks Matt Miller... Thank you very much.
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LMAO...you too a DEMO of you getting whupped in PvP....LMAO!!!
Heck, by your post hysteria, we should all be forced to have only brawl in pvp. That way everything is fair and balanced and you wouldn't be able to get a Demo of you getting "pwn'd" by a stalker....unless you really weren't paying attention.
On a more serious note, it's a known issue, and they are fixing it. So in the meantime DEAL WITH IT.
There are PLENTY of outstanding problems in the CoH/V world, not limited to a single power in PvP. You think MasterMinds are at all happy with the Schtuff that Issue 7 brought them? Those have been known issues since before Issue 7 went live. We've dealt with it, and they are slowly fixing the problems. (nother topic nother thread).
Bugs happen, they get addressed and fixed. In the mean time the players have to DEAL with them. Doesn't get much simpler than that.
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No, it isn't. Maybe it's doing better than some other MMOs, but either the QA team here is crap, or the Cryptic coders are so woefully slapdash as to make the QA department overworked. The list of very major and very easily caught bugs that they've overlooked is surprising.
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I've played a lot of different games and the bug list here doesn't seem to be any larger then they are elsewhere, at least in my experience. There will always be bugs, both big and small, no matter how good their QA departments are at either Cryptic or NCSoft, and who knows what exactly needs to be done to correct the seemingly easily caught ones that squeak their way through. If it's not destroying your ability to enjoy the game, I'd vote for patience.
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That's a very defeatist attitude, and wholly ignores the fact that major bugs have repeatedly "squeaked" through QA, only to be caught almost immediately by the playerbase on Test, then often to once again "squeak" through to live.
(At this juncture, it's standard operating to bring up the +7 enemy debacle on the internal test server, the -50% Unyielding DEF, and then move onto the slew of other issues, some of which the Devs have apologised for, and then vowed to do better with in future...)
Honestly, though, why should we accept shoddy products just because others are also producing them? I can't play my Illusion/Kinetics Controller right now because he crashes constantly. The global channels are bugged. Bases kick you out at random intervals. Invincibility was bugged, offering triple DEF, and sets were balanced around this ability which was subsequently fixed with no conmensurate fix to the sets.
I don't need my enjoyment "destroyed" in order to point out this process is not assuring quality.
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To other posts after yours, the QA team may have some issues and made some bad mistakes since launch, but it's still head and shoulders above other major companies. That doesn't mean some of their more painful messups are ok, but it should still be considered when general slams are going to be issued.
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No, it isn't. Maybe it's doing better than some other MMOs, but either the QA team here is crap, or the Cryptic coders are so woefully slapdash as to make the QA department overworked. The list of very major and very easily caught bugs that they've overlooked is surprising.
And, yes, a hold that essentially has no counter qualifies in my book as a pretty major bug.