Stetting up for Item of power! thanks ahead of tim
By
Accualt,
Posted on: 2006-07-21 14:46 in Base Construction
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Posi, is it possible to participate in the Cathedral of Pain task force if you do not have a supergroup base set up?
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If they keep the current design, the answer is no.
You need a Mission Computer to open the CoP trial, and a Raid Teleporter to get to it. So, no base means no trial. In fact, no base access means no trial for you, as you have to go via the base to get to the trial. So people without CoV are out of luck.
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The point is that you have to run the trial again if you want the bonus. Think of it as something else about bases you have to upkeep.
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It appeared to me that the item could only be kept 7 days, then lost and 21 until you could get another. Positron clarified this, but I was never a fan--nor will ikely ever be--of rent/upkeep. Rent is annoying enough to have in real life. I don't like it in game too. That's just me.
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28 day cycle.
first 7 days, the CoP trial is active and SG's can attempt to get IoPs. In fact they can acquire UPTO 5 by doing this.
After the 7th day, the CoP trial closes, and for the next 21 days, the only way an SG can acquire an IoP is by raiding another SG.
At the end of the 28th day, all IoP's in play are retrieved by the ruualruu. And a new cycle begins. Starting with the 7 day CoP trial open.
etc. etc. ad naseum
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Which is pretty silly, because the larger bases are supposed to be able to hold more than 5 IoPs and yet you can't earn them through raiding easily.
As a matter of fact, the "continual raiding to stay even" is probably going to be the biggest turnoff that I can see here.
What other game requires that you do the exact same raid to upkeep your equipment (not upgrade your equipment.)
This is adding laborous tedium to the end game when you should be trying to make it more interesting.
I do understand that they want PvP raiding and want to make it fun, but this is not the way to do it. I'd break it down into parts and parcels.
A) Earning Items of Power (Cathedral of Pain) in a positive growth manner. I would suggest that IoP returning to the Shadow Shard be entirely removed or very toned down. You can earn up to your first five during your first cycle. After that, you can only add one additional IoP from the Cathedral of Pain.
B) PvP raiding. You can earn one IoP from one raiding of a Supergroup. The losing defending Supergroup is granted a set period of immunity to losing any more Items of Power (1-3 weeks.) So you can't just grind down one supergroup and remove all of their items from one source. It also slows down the economy of raiding. (Currently it is set up that if you know you can beat a group once, you can probably beat them 2-3 more times, crushing them down unfairly.) A defending Supergroup that succeeds should garner a reward. Either immunity to being raided by the loser for that month, a prestige bonus, rent payment or a buff.
C) End of raiding period: Switches to a single mission to "protect your investments". I'd suggest a different raid, but I suppose a single re-run of the Cathedral of Pain to "throw off the Rulari" so that you don't lose all of your IoPs.
I think this would play better without being a draggin grind.
Still here, even after all this time!
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Which is pretty silly, because the larger bases are supposed to be able to hold more than 5 IoPs and yet you can't earn them through raiding easily.
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The jump is between one IoP (for the second smallest plot) and unlimited IoPs (for the third smallest).
I think they'll have increased the IoP bonus by a LOT, for exactly this reason. My guess would be 5% per IoP. And I wouldn't be surprised if they set a maximum of 5 IoPs per base.
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Losing your IoP's in PvP combat is an integral part of the design and of bases (otherwise, what good are secure plots and defense items).
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Actually what IS the good of having a secure plot? I've never been clear on what exactly it does...and most of the defensive items I've seen used in base raids had little to no effect...will any of these be getting buffs? Or do we have to have the uber stuff everywhere for it to make a difference and in that case why waste prestige and salvage on Turret Gun Beam when you can get Elite Turret Gun Beam that actually hit/hurts things...especially since smaller SGs probably wouldn't have IoPs because any uber big SG could come take it w/o a problem...
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Actually what IS the good of having a secure plot?
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Effects of a Secure plot,
- You can use more than 1 Battery, which in practical application means you can use Batteries somewhere other than your Control room.
- You can have a second energy main item. This either can give you more energy output than usual, or you can double-up and have a backup should one go down in a raid. The trade-off for this is that the extra energy room for this item is another raid spot that's vulnerable to having a Pylon planted in it.
- You can have a second control main item, which can mean more control that can't be destroyed in a raid, or more control without having to gather salvage for an AES. (or, a way to have one AES for looks and some other item to attach a mission computer.)
Note that the cost of changing from Hidden to Secure, plus a second control room, plus a Supercomputer is pretty much the same cost of a larger control room plus AES in place of your current Supercomputer. Likewise, upgrading, adding a second energy room, and a second Turbine Generator may end up costing more than buying a Fusion Generator. This would only seem to be worth it if you're doing both upgrades.
However, consider raid vulnerability. You need 6 anchor rooms. In most cases, you would already have: 2 workshops, medical, control, power, teleport. If you add a second control and second power, you have 2 more rooms you need to protect from enemy Pylons. When you consider that particular vulnerability, is it worth the second set of E/C items at all?
Don't forget that some of the secure power and control rooms allow 2 mains in them so you do not have to buy that second room openeing up another possible spawn point and/or pylon placement location.
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Future Design: During the 21 days you hold the Item, you are susceptible to losing your Item of Power in PvP combat.
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Up until this point you were very specific about the details, so maybe I'm just picking nits (or its just after lunch and I'm a bit sleepy)... But we are still talking about base raids, right? Or will be we able to put an IoP on the line in the arena (ante)? Or something else maybe?
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Losing your IoP's in PvP combat is an integral part of the design and of bases (otherwise, what good are secure plots and defense items).
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I'd also like to clarify a poitn about Instant Raids. They're not going away, correct?
The whole "21 days" bothers me, because what's to stop an SG from throwing Raid Matches repeatedly on the last day, so that their Items remain "in the mix of things"? Instead, why not make it a 2 week timer, and increase the timer for every successful defense of the SG? This way, we have an incentive to keep winning, so that the IoPs would remain in our bases indefinately? After all, if one SG is at the top, whats the point of fighting since you're just going to drop (you cant get any more through the trial, and you can't raid to get anymore) below others eventually anyways?
Oh, and in the CoV beta, the IoPs only gave a bonus while one was in SG mode (of course, the +1% Exp gave an extra 1 exp at very low levels, meaning up to +10% exp for us lowbies.)
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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The whole "21 days" bothers me, because what's to stop an SG from throwing Raid Matches repeatedly on the last day, so that their Items remain "in the mix of things"?
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Because all IoPs disappear on the same set date. They don't vanish 21 days after you get them, they vanish 21 days after the end of the last CoP season.
When CoP trials start up again, nobody has any IoPs. So it sort of wipes the scorecard clean.
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The whole "21 days" bothers me, because what's to stop an SG from throwing Raid Matches repeatedly on the last day, so that their Items remain "in the mix of things"?
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Because all IoPs disappear on the same set date. They don't vanish 21 days after you get them, they vanish 21 days after the end of the last CoP season.
When CoP trials start up again, nobody has any IoPs. So it sort of wipes the scorecard clean.
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Yeah, so there's *so* much incentive to defend your base. Heck, for that last raid, I'd probably politely ask my attackers to please just take out the anchors and take the silly thing.
What a silly concept they've come up with.
Still here, even after all this time!
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Because all IoPs disappear on the same set date. They don't vanish 21 days after you get them, they vanish 21 days after the end of the last CoP season.
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This does beg the question of how motivated mid-sized groups should be about this. Large groups would cheerfully raid each other anyway, but when you get to the point where the CoP trial is going to come around again shortly, who wants to put up 100k prestige for a real raid when your prize is going to vanish?
I'm guessing that after the initial "woo! REAL base raids at last!" wears off you'll see a lot of "real" raids during the CoP week, and about a week after, then "instant" raids until the reset hits.
It's one of those things where I'll be genuinely interested to see how it plays out when "real" base raids are live. Genuinely interested from my position a safe distance away, that is. 
@Mindshadow
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Yeah, so there's *so* much incentive to defend your base.
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I have no idea how they're going to justify the risk of permanent Prestige both for the defenders (item destruction) and the attackers (fee of 100,000 Prestige to launch a raid) when the prize lasts 21 days, tops.
My guess is that they won't, and all this is working towards a much more fast and loose approach to base raiding, where it won't matter too much if you lose your IoP because it would have disappeared soon anyway.
That is, I think they'll get rid of the raid fee and the loss of Prestige from destroyed items.
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New Design: During the 21 days you hold the Item, you are not susceptible to losing your Item of Power.
Future Design: During the 21 days you hold the Item, you are susceptible to losing your Item of Power in PvP combat.
Losing your IoP's in PvP combat is an integral part of the design and of bases (otherwise, what good are secure plots and defense items).
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You (as in the Powers-That-Be) are setting up for one ugly scenerio. People who have utterly no interest in PvP are now going to do this mission, get an IoP, and, well, enjoy it. Then, the switch to turn on the raids will certainly upset many people, as they suddenly find out that IoP's are "not for them". Yes, people would probably know ahead of time that this will eventually lead to base raids, but I think it's tasting the forbidden fruit that will bring the anger. Giving cool content then forcing PvP down their throats to keep it is not a good idea, IMHO.
I don't understand the "integral part" statement. How is allowing some PvP-focused group to come into our PvE-focused base, trash it and take an item that we gained in a PvE mission an "integral part" of this? Especially when the item goes away after 21 days anyhow? Now, if the IoP came from a PvP event and not a PvE event, I could possibly understand the concept (we stole it from one group, so we have characters made for PvP, so it's fine to also be raided). And if the item is kept until stolen, perhaps. But, as it currently stands, I just don't get it. Please explain "integral part". 
Linking the PvE method of aquiring the IoP to a PvP base raid just doesn't make sense, except to try to get more people to do base raids. Please consider allowing this content for groups who simply don't want to be forced into PvP when they want to enjoy the content of the game. I'm sure most players would enjoy weaker IoP's or whatever if it meant we didn't need to have our PvE characters face down "L33T-Boi" and Co.
CoH has been unique in the sea of cloned MMOs.There are years of possibilities still
in such a well designed, well supported and well loved game.Shutting it down now doesn't
make sense on any level except, perhaps, on some spreadsheet�s bottom line. I do not
consider this an act of a company that has the interests of its customers at heart.This
calls into question why I would want to be part of any further ventures involving NCSoft.
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I don't understand the "integral part" statement. How is allowing some PvP-focused group to come into our PvE-focused base, trash it and take an item that we gained in a PvE mission an "integral part" of this?
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Because IoPs were designed for base raiding and for no other purpose. Conceptually, the point of an IoP is to give attackers something to steal, and defenders something to defend. It's the 'flag' of base raids, which has to be 'captured'.
The only reason IoPs have in-game benefits is so that people will go to the trouble of earning and defending them.
One thing: What happens if the defending SG simply rips out their base prior to a raid? You know, liquidating everything that could be destroyed? What if they just liquidated the anchors? What if we are not on during a scheduled raid?
No, I haven't done a base raid. Nor do I want to ever do a base raid. But the CoP and IoP do sound like fun content.
I'm just thinking of how a non-PvP group could ignore the base raid all together and hand over an IoP if they really don't want to fight (or even listen to) "L33T-Boi" and Co.
I'm also wondering what the incentive is for a PvP-based group to do the PvE mission to obtain one in the first place. To obtain an item of power, your group has to either be both PvE and PvP capable, or just PvP capable. Which group sounds like they have an upperhand?
It is possible I'm missing something here. I ignored much of the IoP concept when they forced PvP on them.
CoH has been unique in the sea of cloned MMOs.There are years of possibilities still
in such a well designed, well supported and well loved game.Shutting it down now doesn't
make sense on any level except, perhaps, on some spreadsheet�s bottom line. I do not
consider this an act of a company that has the interests of its customers at heart.This
calls into question why I would want to be part of any further ventures involving NCSoft.
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Because IoPs were designed for base raiding and for no other purpose. Conceptually, the point of an IoP is to give attackers something to steal, and defenders something to defend. It's the 'flag' of base raids, which has to be 'captured'.
The only reason IoPs have in-game benefits is so that people will go to the trouble of earning and defending them.
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So they give in-game benefits that only PvPers can enjoy? Since my PvE group doesn't enjoy base raids, we can't enjoy the PvE benefits that some PvP group has? In the same PvE situation? No 1% defense for us, since we don't PvP? Even though we can gain the IoP thru a PvE mission?
This doesn't sit well with me in the slightest. This reeks of "catering to PvP", which I thought wasn't going to be happening here. The benefits should be limited to PvP if they can only be kept by players who PvP. This harkens back to the UO player who has all the l33t loot because he was the best at ganking the most people. Not happy times. Not at all. 
CoH has been unique in the sea of cloned MMOs.There are years of possibilities still
in such a well designed, well supported and well loved game.Shutting it down now doesn't
make sense on any level except, perhaps, on some spreadsheet�s bottom line. I do not
consider this an act of a company that has the interests of its customers at heart.This
calls into question why I would want to be part of any further ventures involving NCSoft.
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This doesn't sit well with me in the slightest. This reeks of "catering to PvP", which I thought wasn't going to be happening here.
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Considering that it will probably have taken over a year, when all is said and done, to even start seeing the item of power PvP system in live usage, I hardly think one can argue that they're spending all their development time on PvP...
There are already in-game benefits you can only get by risking PvP, as well, and have been since CoV hit live.
As long as they don't break what limited PvE functionality bases have, I could care less about wether some SG, somewhere, can work their butt off to gain a benefit smaller than what you'd get from ++ing your SOs.
@Mindshadow
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I'm just thinking of how a non-PvP group could ignore the base raid all together and hand over an IoP if they really don't want to fight (or even listen to) "L33T-Boi" and Co.
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In beta, we were allowed for a brief time to put IoPs in our bases for free, just to test out their existence, I guess. They were placed, moved, and removed like any other base item. Unless something has changed, you will be able to simply delete your IoP like anything else if you don't want it for whatever reason. Better yet, just don't place it in your base in the first place. No IoP in the base, no raid. Simple.
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So they give in-game benefits that only PvPers can enjoy?
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Yes, that's the design.
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Since my PvE group doesn't enjoy base raids, we can't enjoy the PvE benefits that some PvP group has?
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Yes. The IoPs have PvE benefits to make them worth getting in the first place.
What the Devs could have done, I suppose, was give the IoPs purely PvP benefits, but I think the idea is to encourage more people to do base raid PvP.
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... Considering that it will probably have taken over a year, when all is said and done, to even start seeing the item of power PvP system in live usage, I hardly think one can argue that they're spending all their development time on PvP...
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RV was a groundbreaking 4th PvP zone. That's significant development time. The COP trial was on test how for how long since CoV release? Add that development time. How much development time has been spent on power adjustment because of PvP since CoV was released? Count that time as well. No, development time may not have been saturated on PvP since CoV's release, but it has been a tad more significant a chunk of time than you paint it to be.
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...As long as they don't break what limited PvE functionality bases have, I could care less about wether some SG, somewhere, can work their butt off to gain a benefit smaller than what you'd get from ++ing your SOs.
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QFT.
Posi, I along with others here have a problem with length a group gets to keep an IOP before a reset. Belonging to a pvp group with a large base we have found it hard enough to continually grow our base while paying the monthly rent. With the short window which an IOP is around for before it resets it's pretty impratical to spend 100k in prestige for an opportunity to raid for an item for a bonus that will only be around for a few weeks. I hear alot about other pve groups talking how their "forced" into pvp, well pvpers are being forced into grinding pve content for prestige to just be able to raid. The prestige loss of items in base isn't so much a concern as I know the base items are difficult to destroy and their are ways to get the recovery close or to 100%, and lets face it, your sg is responsible for your base and its defense. However the short time before the IOP's reset and not knowing what IOP/IOPs your are raiding for, well it does nothing to encourage what could be great pvp content.
Don't let the ppl spaking out against the way that the CoP and IoPs are *intended* to be discourage you guys devs....Without this IoP aspect, raiding will surely die. (A little exageration? I think not.) This is a PvP reward. They make it a PvE mission to try to *convert* the people who are not friendly to the Enviroment(PvEers...It sounded semi-funny in my head. 
) and although the zones have proven that PvE content in PvP zones does not encourage the PvEers to PvP but just encourages them to outcry against it, don't give in. I mean, come on, you have to have a raid teleporter anyway. What is a PvE group going to do with a raid teleporter?
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Without this IoP aspect, raiding will surely die.
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While I don't disagree that the Items of Power system will help base raids immeasurably, I would have gone with "Without a fix to the crashing/lag issues"...
Priorities, man. 
@Mindshadow
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With the short window which an IOP is around for before it resets it's pretty impratical to spend 100k in prestige for an opportunity to raid for an item for a bonus that will only be around for a few weeks.
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It costs nothing but your time to do the CoP trial and EARN an IoP
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ok so final clarification for us stupid ppl, CoP trial is currently not live and will not be live until at least i8 correct.
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Not correct. CoP trial will go live BEFORE I8. Base raids for IoPs, on the other hand, will go live when they're fixed, whenever that may be.