Do dominators suck like people say they do?
By
Aleshanee_NA,
Posted on: 2006-07-05 13:59 in Dominators
Well the question wasn't: Are doms fine as they are? The question was : Do Doms suck? And the answer is no they do not suck.
I won't argue that they couldn't benifit from some improvements outside of domination, and that may even be what they need to put them on par with some builds of other AT's, but I will continue to argue that they do not suck 
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
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what 58 pages mean is its controversial.
[/ QUOTE ] Precisely.
Regarding your #3; I see that all the time. Being someone who plays a wide variety of ATs I see that many ATs come close to if not exceed dominators useful control. I find this especially true for MM secondaries.
How the devs that also play a varity of ATs cant see this is beyond me. Please dont nerf other ATs, instead boost Doms.
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58 pages in a short time and still growing strong.
I think that, in spite of what the "doms are just fine group" say, this alone is evidence that many people agree that doms need some "dev love".
Plus we are seeing many people who have played doms to high levels and played multiple doms who agree that doms need something.
Does that mean doms "suck"? Maybe suck is to strong of a word, but yes it does mean that doms need looking at.
However, grav doms suck by definition (pun 
).
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Actually, what 58 pages mean is its controversial. If everyone agreed (either way), it wouldnt go 5 pages typically.
I find my ice/nrg dom and fire/fire dom do adequate damage for the ability to halt all incoming attacks. I see the following issues:
1) Control has been nuked in some arenas - BFs in PVP and triangles in AVs, where control is no longer allowed, we need some help/buffing. More damage would help some, but I think it wont be enough, its really more a case of a control AT not being allowed to control.
2) Some AOE effects need to be evaluated, from a dom POV for recharge/duration. AOE holds recharge much too slowly for their duration for a dom. Further, some primaries have to rely on soft controls that use sleep, which is extremely weak compared to stun/disorients. Its a shame many doms skip the AOE holds because of their overall lack of usefulness. This is a large part of people preferring fearsome stare (corruptor power) to flash freeze (or glacier, as it not available to be used).
3) Control powers that come close to dom's holds in effectiveness need to be reined in. Melee stuns, disorients, knockback can be used as effectively or more effectively than most of our controls, with the AT that uses that power having more health, more damage, better defence and resistance. Other ATs dont see the value in control, as they essentially have the control themselves. One example is nrg melee, another is ice/dark corruptors (with PPP 4 holds? Doms have maybe 2?).
A little extra damage wouldnt hurt, but I dont see it fixing any of the complaints about doms. I think the root problems are above.
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Yup, I see your #3 as one of the bigger problems. Yes, Doms DO NOT suck but you can easily replace them with... say a Corruptor??! Hell, a /dark MM can do all the things I can most of the time. They can't do as efficient as I do but for most of the fights/mish, their controlling powers are good enough.
The irony is when the team needs the best control on the most dangerous situation (against AV bosses), we struggle.
I have given a lot of examples already. /dark and cold corruptor can control quite well. Just like last night I team up with lvl 33 Necro MM and lvl 33 Ninja MM. I feel I was sooooooo excluded. I feel they really don't need me. lol Necro MM has Lich who does most of the Dominator's job and then the Master himself has tar patch, fearsome stare..blah blah blah. The Ninja has Oni who uses Char, caltrops for good soft controls and even the master himself was using traps. And I can't outdamage the pets.... there is no way.
I know they don't have good recharge time but in most cases, you do not need to "over control", that's what Doms "seem" to do.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Well the question wasn't: Are doms fine as they are? The question was : Do Doms suck? And the answer is no they do not suck.
I will continue to argue that they do not suck
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heh, what other AT do you need a forum guide to make a passable build? Are the majority of the Dominators you team with going to be forum lurkers who have read ever guide to make the best use of the down time between domination to create crack attack chains that optomize control and hth atacks to do the max damage?
How many guides does it take to use Fury properly?
How many guides does it take to use Scourge properly?
I think the title is valid, as one should not have to read multiple guides to make a passable character and since you don't become powerful until your do/so days and you will never reach SO if you delete your toon before you hit 14.
The majority of players do not read the forums, I hear
therefore, the majority of dominators, don't, IMHO
People sometimes tell me I'm both pessimistic and paranoid but I think that's just because all you optimists are out to get me.
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Well the question wasn't: Are doms fine as they are? The question was : Do Doms suck? And the answer is no they do not suck.
I will continue to argue that they do not suck
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heh, what other AT do you need a forum guide to make a passable build? Are the majority of the Dominators you team with going to be forum lurkers who have read ever guide to make the best use of the down time between domination to create crack attack chains that optomize control and hth atacks to do the max damage?
How many guides does it take to use Fury properly?
How many guides does it take to use Scourge properly?
I think the title is valid, as one should not have to read multiple guides to make a passable character and since you don't become powerful until your do/so days and you will never reach SO if you delete your toon before you hit 14.
The majority of players do not read the forums, I hear
therefore, the majority of dominators, don't, IMHO
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Actually, MM is pretty tough if you dont read the guides, as the command interface is pretty pitiful if you dont make key binds (IMO). A sucky MM who cant control his pets is a team wipe waiting to happen.
Tanks also can be gimped by deciding to not take 1 or 2 powers very easily, and the power description really doesnt tell you the data you need to make a decision. For instance, an invul tank without temnp invul, invincible and unyielding but with the passives will get wiped easily and be a pitiful excuse for a tank.
For that matter, I often skip the fast recharge/low damage attack on my toons, but for my brute, he really needs to use brawl and the weakest attack in the primary to build fury asap. Further, he is nrg/nrg, and I didnt see any guides on building those, but I knew to skip the passives as I was sure they would make the passives very weak, same as invul (which I found was correct).
The list goes on and on. Imagine a stalker who read hide and didnt know how it impacted AS? The power description needs to include numbers, so you can make good decisions. The guidebook helps with its standard builds, but maybe you dont want to play the 1 stalker build in the book.
Doms are tricky, but I dont know they are that much more tricky than some other ATs. I think the easiest are blasters and scrappers and brutes, as they mainly rely on attacks, so they are almost always at least ok.
I don't know. I didn't read any guides to make my dom's. I'm sure lots of people didn't either, then again some people need a map to find the front door of their own house
Sounds like you would be happy if you had corruptor damage? Heck, so would I But I won't suck with my dom's without it.
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
I just mention that to point out most dominators I've seen need some...guidance perhaps...
Heh, my first blaster sucked, I fully admit that one. And even after I fixed it with a Respec and some forum reading, he still sucked because despite being Ex Army Artillery, I don't like performing Fire Support (or waking up at 5am, but I digress)
I have noticed in getting my IllusionRad to 50 and my experiments with Gravity/Kinetics and Mind/Kinetics that I like Active Defense. Which is why I wish my Dominators played more like any of the above or my Ice/Energy Blapper. They aren't grossly overpowered but have effective attacks and juggle controls to keep themself safe as opposed to simply throwing up RI/DN or EF
I just want the AT thats roll is Control and Assault to have parity in Control and Assault to Mind/Kinetics, Ice/Energy or Gravity/Kinetics. Is that unreasonable?
(ok, maybe not parity with Mass Hypnosis/Fulcrum Shift/Terrorize/Fireball...that sort of Power Cosmic should be in the hands of a select few)
People sometimes tell me I'm both pessimistic and paranoid but I think that's just because all you optimists are out to get me.
Sure, it's reasonable to get the most you can or want more than you have. And like I said I won't argue that doms don't need a little help outside of Domination. Maybe we do.
But I do not agree that Doms suck. I think I have expressed my opinion on this matter enough so I'm going to let it ride. If you or anyone else thinks Doms suck, so be it. I just wanted to let it be known that it is not a universal opinion. Besides which it is totally subjective and unqualified.
Suck compared to what? Suck in all areas? Suck in damage compared to a raging fury filled brute? Suck in crowd control compared to a controller? Does that count during domination with powerboost active? etc. etc.
Not every AT shines all the time. Every AT has his day, his strengths and weaknesses. Do Doms have more weaknesses than strengths compared to other AT's? I can't really answer that, but from the ones I've played the answer is it seems fairly level.
Anyway I have fun on my Doms, so I guess that's the most important thing.
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
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Sure, it's reasonable to get the most you can or want more than you have. And like I said I won't argue that doms don't need a little help outside of Domination. Maybe we do.
But I do not agree that Doms suck. I think I have expressed my opinion on this matter enough so I'm going to let it ride. If you or anyone else thinks Doms suck, so be it. I just wanted to let it be known that it is not a universal opinion. Besides which it is totally subjective and unqualified.
Suck compared to what? Suck in all areas? Suck in damage compared to a raging fury filled brute? Suck in crowd control compared to a controller? Does that count during domination with powerboost active? etc. etc.
Not every AT shines all the time. Every AT has his day, his strengths and weaknesses. Do Doms have more weaknesses than strengths compared to other AT's? I can't really answer that, but from the ones I've played the answer is it seems fairly level.
Anyway I have fun on my Doms, so I guess that's the most important thing.
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I can answer for you: yes, they do.
Doms don't suck, they are still playable, and they can "get through" the game content. That's fine.
People are arguing what makes them inferior to the other ATs. This is the whole problem.
I think a simpler way of saying it is: Doms don't suck and are playable, but they do suck when compared to other ATs.
QFT
and doubly so in PvP
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Constant_Motion, posters on internet boards tend to have accepted standards of exaggeration. I know it sounds silly, but they do.
Nerf: originally from when an archer-type class in another game had an attack so severely downgraded that they "might as well have been using a Nerf Bow and Arrow". "Nerf" became "any massive downgrade to a class/ability"...it's now "any downgrade whatsoever". Standard usage is a blatant exaggeration.
I mention this to set up what most posters mean when they say "it sucks!"...they don't mean "it sucks", they mean "it in any way underperforms when compared to the alternatives"--as most players agree that Dominators do underperform, however slightly, the forums are going to be filled with "doms suck" when, in all probability, a couple relatively minor changes could make them equal.
Basically, this is my longwinded way of saying that they do "suck" but only because it doesn't take much at all to fit the accepted use of the word, at least in forums like this. Something can "suck" by being slightly weaker.
Edit: in my mind, Dominators don't suck. They do underperform, but all it would take to achieve parity is a small boost to their normal play and a shift in how AV's resist control effects.
However, the way "they don't suck" will be interpreted as "they don't need any help at all" by those accustomed to the exaggerations.
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Constant_Motion, posters on internet boards tend to have accepted standards of exaggeration. I know it sounds silly, but they do.
Nerf: originally from when an archer-type class in another game had an attack so severely downgraded that they "might as well have been using a Nerf Bow and Arrow". "Nerf" became "any massive downgrade to a class/ability"...it's now "any downgrade whatsoever". Standard usage is a blatant exaggeration.
I mention this to set up what most posters mean when they say "it sucks!"...they don't mean "it sucks", they mean "it in any way underperforms when compared to the alternatives"--as most players agree that Dominators do underperform, however slightly, the forums are going to be filled with "doms suck" when, in all probability, a couple relatively minor changes could make them equal.
Basically, this is my longwinded way of saying that they do "suck" but only because it doesn't take much at all to fit the accepted use of the word, at least in forums like this. Something can "suck" by being slightly weaker.
Edit: in my mind, Dominators don't suck. They do underperform, but all it would take to achieve parity is a small boost to their normal play and a shift in how AV's resist control effects.
However, the way "they don't suck" will be interpreted as "they don't need any help at all" by those accustomed to the exaggerations.
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yes, that's what I was trying to say...thank you. hehehe.
Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I do not subscribe to the "accepted standards of exageration".
I can understand that any downgrade to a power is considered a nerf. Acceptable.
I can not accept, that because brutes do more damage and some corruptors come close to a level of control that is sufficient, that Dominators suck.
But whatever, really this thread is getting old and it's always the same story every week. Hopefully the developers will make some improvements so more people are happy. Either way I'm still having fun.
edit: Exian, with all due respect you may not answer for me, you may answer for yourself
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
I sometimes wonder if the dev are tired of reading this sort of "Dom needs improvement/fix" threads. It always ends up flame-wars and Dominator and Stalker seem to have the most of this kind of threads... gee, I wonder why.
Maybe, JUST MAYBE, there is an obvious problem with these two ATs?? I used to play MMs and I rarely read threads that keep talking about how MMs can be improved... until I came here.
I don't think Dom sucks 'cause this game isn't that hard (besides the elite boss, AV fights, SF) with ANY AT especially if you only set it Villianous. I don't feel I am sucky but I do feel underperformed when I compare myself to other ATs (besides Stalker). This is where the frustration comes from. I feel Corruptors/MMs should never have any hold powers. There is almost no "uniqueness" in Dominator...
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
The question was...
"Do dominators suck like people say they do?"
...and asks why people keep saying "doms suck" so I think it's fair to point out that, when most people are getting all huffy over the "suckage", often they're referring to relatively simple deficiencies.
You might not subscribe to their usage of the word, but the topic does require acknowledging what they mean by it. If you like using more precise meanings, like I do myself, that's great--but we are dealing with their meaning here.
By their standard of what "sucks", which is the standard you accept for what's "nerfed", most people think they do suck.
The corruptor forums have no talk about being underpowered. It's the opposite, there is people in those forums that are posting videos saying that corruptors are probably overpowered for certain things...lol.
Ah, nothing like a few red posts to give an old thread new life...
A guide to the deranged, degraded inhabitants of the forums.
Nonsense, I could just as easily pose the question: Are Doms as good as people say they are? Works both ways.
Saying Doms suck is different that saying a power was nerfed. When something is nerfed it is reduced in power. That definition I have accepted. However, saying Doms suck is totally subjective. Saying Doms do not suck is also subjective.
Not everyone says Doms suck and I for one think they do not. There are two sides to this arguement.
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
You are looking far too deeply into the word "suck"
Maybe so I think I will leave this thread alone Nothing good will come of it.
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
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The corruptor forums have no talk about being underpowered. It's the opposite, there is people in those forums that are posting videos saying that corruptors are probably overpowered for certain things...lol.
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The Brutes on my party this morning were bragging how easy RSF mish is.... and they were the first ones that REQUESTED for a Corruptor to heal/buff them. They actually ask the leader (who is a Stalker) to find a Corruptor. The first time we tried the mish on relentless, we got owned by those Wailers. I had a feeling they didn't want me... lol
Then they added two Thug MMs and a Corruptor with Warm. The mish becomes instant easier. The MMs were using tar patch, fearsome stare. I don't think they really miss my holds... and my damage was barely noticeable in comparison to Brute/Stalker's AS. Those Energy Brute can stun too and one of the Brutes is a Dark/Dark with fear aura. God, I so wanted to quit my Dom. I could hold the boss which they could kill in like 10s.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Nonsense, I could just as easily pose the question: Are Doms as good as people say they are? Works both ways.
[/ QUOTE ] Um, you're making exactly the same mistake here--you're discussing someone else's opinions but not using their definitions of the words involved. Their opinion of what qualifies as "good" in that sentence has exactly the same relevance as their opinion of what qualifies as "sucks", but you're accepting one as valid and dismissing the other?
I think you're thinking too hard--it means what they think it means if we're talking about their opinions and not correcting their diction, which was the case.
In brief: You do not think they suck, but they do suck like people say they do because, when they say it, they're not talking about the same thing as you are
Some folks have said that doms suck because they can't solo. Yet my doms solo fine. Some say that doms suck because they're bad for teams. Yet my doms get compliments from teammates. Some folks say that doms suck because they're not competitive in PVP. Yet I have fun and do moderately well in PVP (casual PVP, anyway). So in my experience, no, doms don't suck the way people say they do.
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).
58 pages in a short time and still growing strong.
I think that, in spite of what the "doms are just fine group" say, this alone is evidence that many people agree that doms need some "dev love".
Plus we are seeing many people who have played doms to high levels and played multiple doms who agree that doms need something.
Does that mean doms "suck"? Maybe suck is to strong of a word, but yes it does mean that doms need looking at.
However, grav doms suck by definition (pun
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Actually, what 58 pages mean is its controversial. If everyone agreed (either way), it wouldnt go 5 pages typically.
I find my ice/nrg dom and fire/fire dom do adequate damage for the ability to halt all incoming attacks. I see the following issues:
1) Control has been nuked in some arenas - BFs in PVP and triangles in AVs, where control is no longer allowed, we need some help/buffing. More damage would help some, but I think it wont be enough, its really more a case of a control AT not being allowed to control.
2) Some AOE effects need to be evaluated, from a dom POV for recharge/duration. AOE holds recharge much too slowly for their duration for a dom. Further, some primaries have to rely on soft controls that use sleep, which is extremely weak compared to stun/disorients. Its a shame many doms skip the AOE holds because of their overall lack of usefulness. This is a large part of people preferring fearsome stare (corruptor power) to flash freeze (or glacier, as it not available to be used).
3) Control powers that come close to dom's holds in effectiveness need to be reined in. Melee stuns, disorients, knockback can be used as effectively or more effectively than most of our controls, with the AT that uses that power having more health, more damage, better defence and resistance. Other ATs dont see the value in control, as they essentially have the control themselves. One example is nrg melee, another is ice/dark corruptors (with PPP 4 holds? Doms have maybe 2?).
A little extra damage wouldnt hurt, but I dont see it fixing any of the complaints about doms. I think the root problems are above.