Official Thread for Mastermind Feature: Bodyguards
By
Agent_Draven,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 13:04 in Developers' Corner
What I believe is happening here is some people taking issue with bodyguard, when they really are taking issue with Defensive mode. This is because, in my opinion, that the majority of people who are playing MM are still using those three dinky pet macros provided to you in simple mode, none of which even use defensive mode. Let's review:
Passive: The minion does jack. Minions with special abilities won't use said abilities.
Defensive: A minion on defensive will attack a target if said target lands a sucessful attack (One that doesn't miss) on itself, any of his minion friends, you (the MM), and in some buggy cases, your teammates. Minions with secondary abilities will prefer using them to attacking *most* of the time.
Agressive: The minion will attack anything within his perception range. (which is thankfully short, I'd rather have them not attack something then aggro something I didn't want the attention of) They'll also respond to attacks as per defensive mode. Minions with special abilities will prefer attacking to using special abilities.
I also think people are forgetting a major thorn in a MM's side PvE wise: Ambushes. These mobs prefer to attack you over the minions, especially if you let them see you first. Considering I'm a MM that prefers to let his pets attack, this is the only time I grab major aggro, and thanks to a modified verson of Sandolphan's MM keybinds, two keypresses will bring all of my guys into defensive mode, which gives all of them a chance to share the damage. Sounds good to me.
PS: For those of you who don't want to bother learning the commands/binds/whatever, switch the pet window to advanced mode, click the button all the way at the top (where it says 'All pets') set your pet to defensive mode, and then drag that button down to your power bar. It automaticly creates a macro button that will set all of your pets in defensive mode, and gives you a nifty shield picture macro to boot. To truely make this a 'bodyguard' macro, right click on the macro, hit edit, and add the word 'Follow' after 'Defensive'.
Edit: Logic fix.
QFT = Quoted For Truth ; QFT = Quit $^#(ing Talking
TLAs FTW.
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I'm a lvl 41 Bots/FF and I've been playing a lot in Recluses victory on test. Now overall I approve of Bodyguard, its been pretty useful 2 or 3 times in very constrained situation. However As a FF its much much much much less worth it for me. In fact, I dont even bother summoning my pets for PvP anymore. If i cant get some heavies to do actual damage I might as well stop pretending. All i have right now, is buffs for teamates and making heavies that much harder to kill.
In any situation where i have my pets around me on bodyguard I'm sitting still for quite a while and I get ganged, and die. Yes bodyguard keeps me alive for a few more seconds, but that just means there are more hero's beating me up.
I cannot think of one situation where I lived due to bodyguard where i would have died before.
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Summed up my thoughts exactly. QFT. You can also read about an extensive list of FF problems here...
Okay so that covers the FF problems and BG, I've been playing in RV, and while normally it's 54 heroes vs. me, I've managed to get in a few (VERY VERY few) one vs. one situations... So now let me talk about body guard problems...
I've YET to be saved by it. Let me describe EVERY fight I've had so far...
Start off where I TP foe into a corner in an attempt to pin them.
Foe walks out of corner like my force bubble wasn't there, and doesn't attack me, so my pets stand there looking at him thinking... hym... what should I do.
So, I put them on attack, and back to follow, and cycle through this a few times, and I turn off force bubble, since it's not working anyway.
Hero takes an eight of a bar damage from my opening assualt (with tactics, assault running).
I take an eight of a bar damage, pets also.
Hero does something that stuns me (or roots me, or generally stops me from doing anything). Since I've already used my 300 breakfrees, I kinda stand there looking dumb. There's GENERALLY a 50/50 chance as to what mode my pets were in (Defensive, follow or Defensive, attack my target).
Assualt and Tactics drop, dispersion bubble drops, pets are reduced in effectiveness
There's another exciting bonus to using my Necro pets! BONUS: Sometimes, they'll fear the oppenent, and STOP attacking, YAY!!!11!!oneone!!! So, I'll put them on attack my target, but as BONUS 2!!: The PC can still occasionally attack while feared, YES!!!!1!!!1!!!
So being a mastermind means doing this a lot (121212121212121212121212121212 <-- Average battle, SOME fun! I'm thinking about buying a nostromo pad and just macroing it to the pad like the bards did in Everquest, if it constantly cycled 1/2 it would mean I'm in Body guard 50% of the time, not too bad)
Now, say pets are still in defensive follow for grins and giggles, the Hero will either now run pets off to get whacked, or just hit me up with the coups de gras (sp?) and off me.
Net result, I lived...about 30 seconds longer than normal, hero lived, MM's still suck in PVP.
Look, Devs, not that you're reading this crap, get the hint; Lord Recluse the most powerful villain is a master mind, he didn't get that way by STAYING IN DEFENSIVE FOLLOW MODE cause if he did, he'd be hiding in a corner like a LITTLE SISSY. Which is what my mastermind has become. You should change the AT title to masterhideinbiggroupsnadpraytoGODyoudon'tgetseenca useifyoudoyou'reprettymuchdead-mind.
Your bodyguard changes are worthless for PVP... Worhtless!
It's not enough to survive in PVP, if you want to WIN you need to do offensive and defensive power. This is how scrappers do it, they're little defensive powerhouses and little offensive powerhouse, a mastermind should be somewhere in there, if we're so damn weak (which we ARE) then we should be damage output masters (which we AREN'T).
Your body guard system is terribly flawed in it's logic, I think the movie about the little chess player kid (Finding Bobby Fischer?) said it best... the bum and the kid are playing some street chess, and the bum says, "What are you doing? You're playing not to loose, you gotta play to win, you gotta put it all on the line"
You've given us a skill that helps us to not loose, we still can't win.
FIX Bodyguard
FIX Force Field
...fix PVP
So, Bodyguard doesn't help you when you're outnumbered 54 - 1? Thank goodness. It sounds like you haven't had much luck in a limited number of 1 v 1 situations either. Have you had a chance to test the changes in more of a balanced team battle situation (4 v 4 or 8 v 8)? Have you ever seen a team of 8 MM's all using Bodyguard and fighting together? I haven't, but I'm pretty sure they would wreck some shop if they fought as a team and were up against a force of equal size and level.
I've been impressed by numerous MM's I've run into in pvp zones since the change, more than before.
The Bodyguard buff appears to me to be one of the single biggest AT buffs ever. It may not be what every MM wants, but it's pretty sweet. Some MM's are going to be among the best 1 v 1 pvp sets and will no doubt be a great addition to any team.
That being said, I want to do more testing.
I had a lot of discussion about this earlier, unfortunately I was basically shouted down by people who just see that something is being done to help MMs and don't really look closely to see if it REALLY helps.
1) The pet AI is incredibly stupid, even more stupid than that for NPCs. FIX IT!!! If I or my pets are shot at, I want my pets in bodyguard mode to fight back. If we have a scrapper attacking us I want them to fight back. I don't care if the attacks miss, my bodyguards better return fire.
2) Bodyguard mode shouldn't depend on defensive stance. Follow I can understand, they can't guard you if they're not there, but anyone with any military experience can testify that you don't have to be defensive to protect a 3rd party. Show me the seal team saving hostages that doesn't fire BEFORE taking fire, or more to the keeping of bodyguard...that doesn't fire before one of the team or the person they're protecting actually takes a hit.
3) Forcefield is horribly broken with regard to bodyguard. Every other secondary set allows either a way to keep your pets alive (heals) or a way to fight back (attacks and controlls). FF is primarily about preventing damage, but damage is transferred from us to the pets directly, bypassing the bubbles. This means that our PRIMARY PURPOSE IN LIFE IS BEING MADE IRRELEVANT. Heroes can kill pets faster by pumping damage into us than by targeting them, since we're easier to hit and have less resistance. Sure, they'd do this anyway, and they do to other secondaries, but FF doesn't have the powers to heal or fight back like the other secondaries do.
4) Pets totally lack movement powers. Bodyguard sounds great, but combat requires mobility, and MMs have zero mobility. We can be mobile, but leave our pets behind, or we can go slow with our pets, becoming a sitting duck, and watching anyone who cares to use hit and run attacks fade away while we are unable to stop them. Our pets don't even have sniper range attacks, so they can't do anything to those hover snipers that like to stay above us and fire with impunity. At least let the minions who are primarily RANGED have a sniper ranged attack!
5) With regard to PFF....CHANGE IT BACK! We have defenders with PFF at twice the effectiveness of our own. We have Controllers with PFF that is over 50% more effective than that of MMs. Both of these have a 15 second base reset on their PFF, which means 7.7 seconds if they slot it with 3 recharge SOs. BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE. Now we have to contend with Blasters using PFF. Their PFF is just as effective as ours, and they have only a 15second base recharge (same 7.7 seconds if they slot with 3 recharge SOs). Ours is 120 second base recharge!!!! The argument is that PFF combined with bodyguard is too powerful, but thats a load of bull dung! Not only that, but blasters have access to Force of Nature and Temporary Invulnerability as well. They can drop PFF, let rip with 7.7 seconds of devastating damage, and then put it back up, with virtually NO risk. Our damage rate is MUCH MUCH less than that of a blaster, we can't persue when a target runs, due to lack of movement powers for our pets, but we have a TWO MINUTE reset? GIVE ME A BREAK! I dont' see any game breaking benefit to a MM being able to fade in and out of PFF the same way all of the other ATs in the game with the power can.
Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice
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2) Bodyguard mode shouldn't depend on defensive stance. Follow I can understand, they can't guard you if they're not there, but anyone with any military experience can testify that you don't have to be defensive to protect a 3rd party.
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Contrary to popular belief, "how things work in the real world" isn't really taken into account when it comes to game balance. The defensive stance requirement is purely and totally to create a trade off effect: you give up being able to actively direct your minion's attacks in return for defense. It's got nothing to do with realism.
Those three little macro buttons that you get at the start of the game...they can be edited. Try changing one to defensive/follow. If I can figure that out in a handful of seconds...anyone can.
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Those three little macro buttons that you get at the start of the game...they can be edited. Try changing one to defensive/follow. If I can figure that out in a handful of seconds...anyone can.
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It's not about keybinds, it's about getting whacked and the pets just standing there looking dumb.
The pet AI is what needs to be fixed. Bodyguard, with out a useful AI is total garbage.
Today, doing more 1v1 testing on test (I'd group if more people were interested in actually testing), I got absolutely hammered by a tanker. It wasn't even close, he'd hit me with an upper cut that would stun me, he'd run my pets off into some nearby mobs, he'd come back and just crush me. It wasn't pretty. I tried putting up PFF but no such luck.
I suppose here's my quesiton, currently we suck like blasters at taking hits. A tanker can kill me in two hits, which is just terrible.
If I take damage like a blaster, why on eart do I do damage like a controller?
Bodyguard is worthless for PVP, let me tick off the reasons again for everyone:
1: Pets are dumber than rocks
2: Defensive stance doesn't work
2a: Pets stop attacking if they fear a mob that they had been previously attacking
2b: Pets are dumber than rocks
3: * Won't get into the problems force field has*
4: Pets have a serious problem with travel and getting attacked by zone NPC's are a result of it
4a: Pets, are dumber than rocks
5: We do controller damage and have blaster resistances
5a: We go down quicker than Monica Lewinsky
and lastly...
6: Pet AI is simply terrible
Some Fixes that would help Bodyguard.
1. Pets no matter what happens stay in Supremacy range.
2. Pets no matter what happens when in Follow stay in Supremacy range.
3. When a Pet reaches supremacy range and is in Defensive he returns back to his master and stops chasing the Mob.
So in short baring being knocked or teleported out of Supremacy range the Pets stay in it.
Think of Supremacy range like an electric doggie fence, Henchmen just won't move beyond it.
Lox we don't take hits like a Blaster, they have the same Hp as a Scrapper. We take hits like well see that Dominator, now put him at 90% hp and we take hits like him.
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Some Fixes that would help Bodyguard.
1. Pets no matter what happens stay in Supremacy range.
2. Pets no matter what happens when in Follow stay in Supremacy range.
3. When a Pet reaches supremacy range and is in Defensive he returns back to his master and stops chasing the Mob.
So in short baring being knocked or teleported out of Supremacy range the Pets stay in it.
Think of Supremacy range like an electric doggie fence, Henchmen just won't move beyond it.
Lox we don't take hits like a Blaster, they have the same Hp as a Scrapper. We take hits like well see that Dominator, now put him at 90% hp and we take hits like him.
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Sorry to nitpick but blasters don't have the same hp like scrappers, they have lower hp then them even with the hp boost they got.
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What I believe is happening here is some people taking issue with bodyguard, when they really are taking issue with Defensive mode. This is because, in my opinion, that the majority of people who are playing MM are still using those three dinky pet macros provided to you in simple mode, none of which even use defensive mode. Let's review:
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Those three little macro buttons that you get at the start of the game...they can be edited. Try changing one to defensive/follow. If I can figure that out in a handful of seconds...anyone can.
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Let me get something straight...
I KNOW HOW TO PUT MY PETS IN DEFENSIVE/FOLLOW MODE.
That's not the problem. The first thing I did was create defensive/follow macros to get Bodyguard on demand.
The problem is that: DEFENSIVE MODE TAKES MINIONS OUT OF FOLLOW MODE WHEN ATTACKED.
When the MM is attacked by a foe while in Defensive mode, the minions stop "following" the MM. The minions "follow" the foe. The minions run out of Supremacy range and Bodyguard drops.
In PvE, in small rooms and hallways, this is not a problem for two reasons:
1. Foes aren't that far away, and rarely run far away.
2. And even if foes are far away and the minions run out of Supremacy range, thus dropping Bodyguard, the foe AI will still most likely attack the minions.
In PvP, it's a problem because:
1. Most PvP is outdoors, and players attack from far away or run far away.
2. Players ignore the minions running after them and circle back and attack the non-shielded, low-hp, and Bodyguard-less MM.
Let's put it this way: Would you want to play a Tank, Scrapper, or Brute with even greater defenses than you already have if all those defenses were transferred to a slow moving shield which can easily be coaxed to leave you, and dissipated every time you chose a target to attack? Well, welcome to MM-in-PvP-World.
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He shouldn't be able to stun you with one KO Blow ( I assume that is what you are talking about, uppercut) Dispersion Bubble protects against its hold. He would have to hit you with maybe the epic hold if he had it too to possibly hold you through dispersion bubble.
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2. Players ignore the minions running after them and circle back and attack the non-shielded, low-hp, and Bodyguard-less MM.
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You can't tell them to return to you while the person is circling back ?
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2. Players ignore the minions running after them and circle back and attack the non-shielded, low-hp, and Bodyguard-less MM.
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You can't tell them to return to you while the person is circling back ?
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The person circling back has a Travel Power. The minions don't have a Travel Power. They don't even have Sprint and they travel at slightly less than Sprint speed.
Rather than give us MMs what we've been asking for in PvP, i.e., Travel Powers for minions or a small chance to Taunt for the minions, they gave us Bodyguard, which would work in theory if defending minions stayed in Supremacy range or if it wasn't tied to Supremacy range. The way Bodyguard functions means that it is not the fix needed for MMs in PvP.
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Ninjas do get a bonus to SPD with the 2 tier upgrade do they not? Nonetheless, my soldiers seem to move pretty quick on test lately, I think they gave them a boost or I have just not paid attention to them. Anyways, what are you, a statue? You can't move to counter the hero?
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Ninjas do get a bonus to SPD with the 2 tier upgrade do they not? Nonetheless, my soldiers seem to move pretty quick on test lately, I think they gave them a boost or I have just not paid attention to them. Anyways, what are you, a statue? You can't move to counter the hero?
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Normally, when I have a Blaster above me, I don't run 50 yards away to a nearby building and run up the fire escape so that I can get higher in the hopes I can get close enough to hit that Blaster. Yet, that's what the minions do. Should I be following them on their useless path just to stay in Bodyguard range? Sort of goes against me being the Mastermind.
WRT speed: On Sprint alone, I can outrun my minions (except for the Ghost) and initiate an auto-tp on Test. That's a level 41 Necro and minions that are fully upgraded and enhanced.
And before anyone says, "Get Group Fly, then," let me point out Group Fly is too slow to catch up to other players (about 2/3 the speed of Fly) and minions go slower than the MM in flight and keep dropping out of Group Fly. Enhancing the speed of Group Fly does not enhance the speed of the minions in the Group Fly field.
Bodyguard is just too limited to be the fix for MMs being the weakest AT in PvP.
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So, Bodyguard doesn't help you when you're outnumbered 54 - 1? Thank goodness. It sounds like you haven't had much luck in a limited number of 1 v 1 situations either. Have you had a chance to test the changes in more of a balanced team battle situation (4 v 4 or 8 v 8)? Have you ever seen a team of 8 MM's all using Bodyguard and fighting together? I haven't, but I'm pretty sure they would wreck some shop if they fought as a team and were up against a force of equal size and level.
I've been impressed by numerous MM's I've run into in pvp zones since the change, more than before.
The Bodyguard buff appears to me to be one of the single biggest AT buffs ever. It may not be what every MM wants, but it's pretty sweet. Some MM's are going to be among the best 1 v 1 pvp sets and will no doubt be a great addition to any team.
That being said, I want to do more testing.
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I have seen a team of 6 MM's in Warburg on live. This is WITHOUT the adventage of bodyguard. Everybody left the zone because everybody would get insta-ganged by hordes of pets if they even got close. Now imagine if they made MM's tougher. that's like giving a blaster scrapper like shilds. Over powered. My Nin/Dark MM can take down a tank in about 30 seconds. 1 on 1, not many can do that. I've also sruvived a lot with bodyguard. I generaly put 3 Low pets on guard duty, while my big boys go play in most situations. Switching to full assault or full defensive depending on the situtations.
Heck, I even took out a Heavy like it was nothing. Bodyguard isn't a "I win button". It won't help you in all situations. But when used properly it does give you more breathing room in close fights.
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In PvP, it's a problem because:
1. Most PvP is outdoors, and players attack from far away or run far away.
2. Players ignore the minions running after them and circle back and attack the non-shielded, low-hp, and Bodyguard-less MM.
Let's put it this way: Would you want to play a Tank, Scrapper, or Brute with even greater defenses than you already have if all those defenses were transferred to a slow moving shield which can easily be coaxed to leave you, and dissipated every time you chose a target to attack? Well, welcome to MM-in-PvP-World.
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This I agree with. But this isn't a problem with bodyguard. This is a problem wiht pet AI. They need to make pets a bit smarter, or give them more modes or options in controling their behavior.
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while the pets get no resistance to the shared damage.
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So, say a group member puts sonic or fire shields on my bots, those shields somehow cease to exist when the bot interposes itself between me and the attack? That's just dumb. The attack should auto-hit on the bot of course, but the bot's resistances should still apply, his metal hide, or any resistance based shields aren't going to just vanish.
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while the pets get no resistance to the shared damage.
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what about pet's that have defense not resistance? at some point what makes sense in real life has to give way to game balance.
So, say a group member puts sonic or fire shields on my bots, those shields somehow cease to exist when the bot interposes itself between me and the attack? That's just dumb. The attack should auto-hit on the bot of course, but the bot's resistances should still apply, his metal hide, or any resistance based shields aren't going to just vanish.
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I dropped a Heavy Solo without bodyguard or Supremacy.
(I was hiding behind a turret with my Bots about 100 feet ahead of me)
6 Blasters using Ae attacks can do the same thing better actually. Take 6 Fire tankers using Burn and they can do the same thing. 6 of any AT using AE Dot attacks can chew thru almost any other AT in a matter of seconds. Same overpowered set up. Learned that lesson in Dark Age of Camelot while defending and attacking keeps.
Its a problem with Bodyguard if all someone has to do is snipe you and then run away so his buddy can now kill you. If they haven't fixed the attack any teammate and everyone's pets will chase him down defensive bug then One guy can wipe out six masterminds with a snipe and then running thier pets into a Group of Longbow including at least one Boss. While thier pets are busy he can come back and kill em one at a time.
Please make this happen. I would love to just click on a button that puts whatever henchmen into bodyguard mode. Also, I would like to see an option where I can make it that the henchman doesn't go out of bodyguard mode even if I click the macro button on the menu bar for All attack my target.
Its a shame that a family can be torn apart by something as simple as a pack of wild dogs. - Jack Handy.
Proud member of:
Gunstar Heroes (Protector)
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I dont' see any game breaking benefit to a MM being able to fade in and out of PFF the same way all of the other ATs in the game with the power can.
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Huh ? You don't see any problem with the one set that has multiple pets to fight for it being able to quickly duck in and out of indestructable mode ?
That's like a Phase shifted Controller pre-phase shift nerf.
MM's can sit and hide behind PFF, having their pets do the fighting for them, your just not allowed to pop in and out of PFF to respawn pets and get cheap shots in. That is some semblance of balance.
The more this game evolves the more I find that the sets we thought were going to be UBER in PVP are the ones that got whacked hard with the nerf stick to prevent them from achieving dominance.
Phase Shifted controllers = Phase shift nerf
Elec Blasters/defenders = Endurance drain nerfed to uselessness
Anything with PFF = Defenders in PVP yeah right ?
ED prevents blasters from ruling PVP.
FF MM's are nothing but their pets, and pets don't amount to much in PVP
Regen Scrappers = Okay Regens are still tough, but their not G0DLY anymore
MM's won't truly be good in PVP untill they get ice/cold Masterminds. Since I just made them up, that could be a long way off 
Ice critters would make b4d455 pets.
Centinull
what about trollers with illusion (or other pets) going in and out of PFF dropping holds in the interim? why was that not nerf-worthy?
Especially since Illusion pets are unkillable
I'm also sure you have no problem with a Blaster charging straight at someone with PFF up and then Dropping it to obliterate an opposing player and then popping it back on and running off?
I'm a lvl 41 Bots/FF and I've been playing a lot in Recluses victory on test. Now overall I approve of Bodyguard, its been pretty useful 2 or 3 times in very constrained situation. However As a FF its much much much much less worth it for me. In fact, I dont even bother summoning my pets for PvP anymore. If i cant get some heavies to do actual damage I might as well stop pretending. All i have right now, is buffs for teamates and making heavies that much harder to kill.
In any situation where i have my pets around me on bodyguard I'm sitting still for quite a while and I get ganged, and die. Yes bodyguard keeps me alive for a few more seconds, but that just means there are more hero's beating me up.
I cannot think of one situation where I lived due to bodyguard where i would have died before.