Official Thread for Mastermind Feature: Bodyguards
By
Agent_Draven,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 13:04 in Developers' Corner
[ QUOTE ]
If I'm opening the fight and my henchman are on def/follow, and bodyguard kicks in, that's all well and good. But to assume that ALL MM players are going to be able to command 6 pets, watch their own plus 6 pet's health, attack, debuff, heal, whatever, AND be able to predict which attacks are aimed at the MM or that an aoe attack is incoming, so that the MM can quickly toggle to bodyguard is a little ridiculous.
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Personally I play a MM becuase I like to micro-manage. I haven't had a problem keeping up with it so far. I'm constantly managing orders and stances anyway, so it wasn't a big adjustment to add this wrinkle in. YMMV.
If someone doesn't want to or is unable to micro-manage stances/orders that finely, I can see where bodyguard would be more situational. However, with the right binds/macros it's not too difficult (IMHO) and the effect is pretty amazing.
To say that it "sucks" is a bit of an exaggeration. At worst you're no worse off than you were before. Nothing got taken away from you to add this. If you don't want to use it, you don't have to. A very easy use for it is to treat it as a kind of resist-based instant on/instant off PFF - pop it when you get too much aggro on you and need to retreat or get those heals/debuffs down, or you need to get buffs on those pets you just resummoned.
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That isn't what I'm seeing on test.
Since no red name has come in here to say they're looking at it, or it's working as intended, or it's a bug in one type of pet, the only conclusion I can reach about bodyguard is that it sucks.
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Then that's a bug in stance/command management on test and should be flagged as such (via /bug). It doesn't really have anything to do with bodyguard. Bodyguard is someting extra you get when your pets are in def/follow, if I understand it correctly - it shouldn't take away any AI functionality you already have on live in def/follow. In other words, your pets should not do something different in def/follow just because bodyguard is there - all that should happen is damage that goes to the MM gets spread out.
It's possible that some unrelated change (perhaps trying to fix "wonky" pet AI in certain circumstances?) is messing with the pet AI.
I personally haven't seen a difference between stance response in PvE (other than it doesn't seem to reliably work in either live or test for me), but I haven't really looked at pet AI that deeply. I can look more into it tonight. If I can nail down something specific about how the pets act or don't act that doesn't seem right, I'll /bug it.
Ah, ok. I wasn't explaining myself clearly. You posted as I was editing my post above to try to clarify.
Yes, my experience has been that IF I am in BG, and I can only assume I am as I have no icon buff to show I am, my pets are behaving differently. I don't think my mercs did what my thug is doing. I'll check them tonight.
Ok, I conducted a test. I logged on live on my 40 merc MM, test on my 40 merc MM, and test on my 5 thug/traps MM. I only used the first merc that I got, to better compare it to the single thug. None had buffs. Defensive turned on/left on.
They all performed pretty much the same behaviorally.
If told to attack and then told to follow after they were engaged, they all stopped fighting and turned to me. If they were still being attacked they did not attack back until after the 2nd hit (mercs) or 3rd (thug sometimes waited for the 3rd).
If again told to follow, they all stopped fighting and turned to me. If I immediately attacked, they joined in.
If again told to follow, they all stopped fighting and turned to me. If I was attacked, they immediately returned the attack.
On test, both merc and thug would turn and fire once then resume no attacking, if after told to follow and stopping their attacks the mob repeatedly missed them, or me. I didn't see this on live. Maybe something with bodyguard, I don't know.
I also noticed that if the thug was told to follow (and stop attacking), and we were within melee range of the mob, as soon as the mob swapped to me instead of the thug as his target, the thug would attack before I was even hit. Not sure if that's all pet behavior, thugs, or BG. I didn't get in melee range on my merc MM, and the thug didn't do that if the mob was immobilized and kept at range.
It was not the most scientific testing, but it showed me that they do perform basically the same. I think what made me feel there was something wrong was twofold. The first being that the thug seems a lot slower than the merc. Slower to run, slower to begin his attacks. Even when directly told to attack he doesn't do it as fast as the merc.
The second problem is more...problematic, but not related to MMs, I don't think.
I couldn't understand why my mercs on test kept going into aggressive mode when I had them in defensive and was issuing follow commands. They don't do that on live. I think my thug the other night was doing the same, but that was actually a different thug MM than the one I tested tonight (different secondary). I noticed with my merc MM that there's a problem with the power tray which may be related to the problem I ran into when creating both new MMs on test.
Upon entering Breakout, I moved brawl out of the first slot, but I couldn't slot any other powers into it's place, not without great difficulty. I also had powers leave my tray upon zoning, and ran into the same problem when trying to place a power in slot 1, tray 1. I could put brawl back no problem, everything else didn't work on the first try, or the second, or the third, etc., you get the point. This happened with both new MMs, but began with the one I was playing up until last night and didn't use for the test tonight. (Thug/TA)
While testing my copied over MM, whose powers were already set in slots in this layout, (a layout I use for all my MMs as far as basic pet controls go), tonight my follow button poofed off the tray during a fight. Notice it's in slot 1, tray 1. I have a suspicion that for some reason some commands are not being read from the proper tray. That would explain why when I told my mercs to follow they often went into aggressive mode. It's in the slot right above 'follow'. And what gave me that idea was this:
On test, I moved brawl (or whatever that first power in tray 3 is in my pic) when I got a temp power to summon a rikti drone. During my testing tonight, when follow poofed out of my tray, I decided to replace it in a different slot to see if it would stay. I swapped from tray 3 to 4, slotted follow in the first slot and clicked it...and summoned a rikti drone. I have since moved all my powers which were in slot one to another location. Something is wacky with the power tray in I7, particularly the first power slot on each tray. I do know others had the same problem trying to place powers, where the icon when dropped on the empty slot just disappears, but as to whether they are also having icons disappear for no reason, or setting off the wrong power, I don't know.
But that would explain why I could never seemed to get into BG mode with my mercs. They were probably swapping to aggressive and I wasn't aware at first that they were doing it. I remember being annoyed that I had to keep clicking defensive after each fight, but I thought that might have been part of the BG thing. I thought aggressive was the new default or something. This may be a bug, or just a corrupted file on my end, dunno. I'll leave this reported here, I'm not going to post it in another thread.
Sorry this was so long. 
In a group running on Relentless in an indoor mission that was all hallways (Arachnos base map), Bodyguard was freaking unbelievably overpowered. I, as the MM, would literally tank a group of 10 mobs that were +2 levels with bosses and lts.
I would run up to the group with my bodyguards behind me and throw Darkest Night on the boss. Then they all attacked me. The damage was spread around, I threw an AoE heal (Twilight Grasp) as my pets and my teammates waded into battle. I went in, too, to continually heal.
I took the alpha strke to myself and shrugged it off. I stood in the pile of AoE attacks and was barely scratched.
The */Dark MM was already overpowered, and Bodyguard makes it more so... in PvE.
See my post above why in PvP, Bodyguard is practically useless in PvP, and the MM continues to be the least effective PvP AT.
Bodyguard, IMO, is a huge, huge mistake.
See ya when I PL myself to 50.
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[ QUOTE ]
In a group running on Relentless in an indoor mission that was all hallways (Arachnos base map), Bodyguard was freaking unbelievably overpowered. I, as the MM, would literally tank a group of 10 mobs that were +2 levels with bosses and lts.
I would run up to the group with my bodyguards behind me and throw Darkest Night on the boss. Then they all attacked me. The damage was spread around, I threw an AoE heal (Twilight Grasp) as my pets and my teammates waded into battle. I went in, too, to continually heal.
I took the alpha strke to myself and shrugged it off. I stood in the pile of AoE attacks and was barely scratched.
The */Dark MM was already overpowered, and Bodyguard makes it more so... in PvE.
See my post above why in PvP, Bodyguard is practically useless in PvP, and the MM continues to be the least effective PvP AT.
Bodyguard, IMO, is a huge, huge mistake.
See ya when I PL myself to 50.
[/ QUOTE ]I ran some tough missions last night on my ninja/dark and it is a little too good, I plan to combine tough+shadowfall+scorpion shield with bodyguard and think of how sick that would be in PvE.
All I want is a nice shiny button to put my crew into BG.
I have no idea or clue on how to macro, nice ol big shiny button please. Yea I am a computer neanderthal. 
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All I want is a nice shiny button to put my crew into BG.
I have no idea or clue on how to macro, nice ol big shiny button please. Yea I am a computer neanderthal.
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It's simple, you already have the keys for "Attack my Target", "Follow", and "Heal" that were programmed for CoV launch (I drag these into my tray). Right click the "Follow" key/command...the one with the arrow, click edit, then change the text from aggressive to defensive and volia....you now have a bodyguard key 
.
I've managed to use BG effectively on my level 33 Robo/Dark
First I would have my bots attack(useing the Aggresive/attack my target bution)
Then use my new Def/Follow Macro and BAM 75% res.
Now some things to remember.
Pets are only capable of doing one thing at a time and have a goldfish memory span. If you have them attacking and then set them into Def mode they will still attack, UNLESS you make them move. Make sure they stay near you or eles they go from "kill" to "follow" and ignore foes untill attacked again.
For the most part I was always able to fight PvE without BG, my bots got all the agro. So I don't think i'll use it to offen. There are times when I CAN NOT get aggo off me, this is where it will come in handy. Even if I can only get one bot to use BG, thats still 1/3% res and much more then I had before.
I give BG a thumbs up
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It was not the most scientific testing, but it showed me that they do perform basically the same. I think what made me feel there was something wrong was twofold. The first being that the thug seems a lot slower than the merc. Slower to run, slower to begin his attacks. Even when directly told to attack he doesn't do it as fast as the merc.
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Interesting. I was playing with it in a Mayhem mission last night with my thugs and it seemed like they would not attack mobs that were attacking me no matter what I did. To be fair though, I didn't really wait more than 10-15 seconds (or I would have died). I didn't try it with my ninjas or bots - maybe the type of pet makes a difference. I went ahead an /bug'ed it for what it's worth.
Now that you mention it, the thugs are definitely slow to react. I had put it down to test server lag, but I hadn't had a chance to compare it extensively to my other MMs.
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I couldn't understand why my mercs on test kept going into aggressive mode when I had them in defensive and was issuing follow commands. They don't do that on live. I think my thug the other night was doing the same, but that was actually a different thug MM than the one I tested tonight (different secondary). I noticed with my merc MM that there's a problem with the power tray which may be related to the problem I ran into when creating both new MMs on test.
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I've heard some reports of binds and macros getting messed up in the character transfer. You might double check them (even the 3 "built-in" ones) I definitely remember that my power trays did not look the same after I copied over (for one thing, the 3 "built-in" pet control macros were dropped off it) and I had to recreate some macros, but I didn't remember the specifics. My thugs/TA is from scratch on test, so I haven't had a problem with it.
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All I want is a nice shiny button to put my crew into BG.
I have no idea or clue on how to macro, nice ol big shiny button please. Yea I am a computer neanderthal.
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Type the following command:
/macro f_d petcom_all follow defensive
Gives you a button called "f_d" on your power tray that puts your pets into defensive follow. I now use that in place of the "Heel" button pretty regularly.
I personally am not enjoying the bodyguard power. I just fought a mob of vahz and the whole time I was fighting the pets stood there with their fingers up their butts watching. Up until the whole mob was almost dead, did I finally get hit, then they decide to fight. This power is completely worthless in my opinion. I really hope the devs change this to be more effective, or at least better.
Just now I was fighting a reaper and an embalmbed. I shot the reaper and he hit me. They did take the damage and killed him. When the embalmed bear downed to blow up, the pets stood there and let themselved be killed. This is my idea about BG mode. I think they should be in BG mode wether in aggressive, passive, or defensive. Not just one. Again the Mastermind doesnt want to die, but if you get hit by a orange or red or even a purple baddie your a gonner if they get one good hit off.
Since this is a long post here's an executive summary: This post will relate the nerfs of the ForceField MM to the effectiveness of the Bodyguard ability. It will first recap the negative changes that have affected the Force Field mastermind, then relate those changes to the marginal effectiveness of Bodyguard. Lastly, I'll offer some solutions to solving these issues.
Negactive Changes to FF MM's (The Nerfs):
Nerfed PFF to 2 minute recharge: Effectively this took the mind game out of playing an MM, it used to be you'd put up PFF defensively, until the person you were fighting figured out you had it on, then you'd take it off and fight, until they caught on again. This didn't always work, but it was very strategic, much like a chess match. This method allowed a force field MM a chance to PVP. The nerf caused MM's to turtle up MORE, which oddly is what the nerf was meant to repeal. This was nerfed because with Body Guard "It would be overpowered" according to castle.
I7 Beta release:
PFF Nerf: Bodyguard doesn't work when in PFF mode, this means that blasters that could kill you before, can still kill you inside of PFF, making it possibly more of a liability. This also brings into question, why was it nerfed in the first place, if it was never intended to work with bodyguard.
PFF Nerf #2 (the stealther!): Pets can no longer be controlled while in PFF, making the skill increasingly useless. Now if you use PFF and get attacked while pets are in defensive, an enemy player can run your pets into the pleathora of orange boss mobs on the map, your only option for stopping them is to drop the skill which has a 2 minute recharge.
Detoggle nerf: Our 100% chance to detoggle skill is dropped to 19%/19%. Our primary form of defense against blasters (force bolt) is also nerfed (down to 5% chance to detoggle, more effective to brawl at this point). It also reduced Repulsion field to a STELLAR 1% per half second... or roughly one toggle dropped every 45 seconds, of course, it sucks down more end than running the Boston Marathon.
With all of these slams, we've gotten 1 new ability... Bodyguard... let's talk about this skill...and how it relates to the Force Field mastermind
Now, originally, when PFF wasn't nerfed, I could use tactics to strategically heal my pets, I could unshield, heal, go offensive and if it got a little too hot, return to the shields. This worked well enough I suppose... but with the assault of nerfs, Bodyguard isnt really a benefit for us... my fights last night proved that despite other MM's quotes of:
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Nothing got taken away from you to add this.
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Something *DID* get taken away, my ability to effectively challenge people one on one has been decimated.
The bodyguard change [censored] Force Field MM's, and gave very little back. And I don't care what it did for PVE, PVE in this game is mostly dull and repetitious, I'm talking just in PVP.
Before the nerf I could earn 20-30 points a night in Warburg, last night on test, I earned 4! And that was with constantly going out and buying greens and break frees.
Bodyguard, at the cost of PFF... Not Worth It
So how can it be fixed:
Well, there are a few things that would make me happy, we'll start with the NON-PFF related ones...
Make our knockbacks not so easilily counterable with things like acrobatics, my primary method of "Control" as a master mind, is my ability to push people around. I have no slows and my primary control power (My Liches Fear) is lack luster at best.
Increase the effectiveness of Dispertion Bubble, so that I can have some prayer of surving hits, since everything that whacks my bodyguards AVOIDS my only method of protecting them.
Make the bubbles we use self targettable. You would basically change dispersion bubble to an AE skill same with insulation shields.
Provide us with a group heal (although I have no idea what skill you'd get rid off to be honest, I use just about every skill in the FF line)
And of course, un-screw PFF. The prefered fix would be to repeal the duration nerf. I don't care if I can't control my pets, and I don't care if I loose body guard, I do care that if I get TP/Foe'd or jumped by an AOE'er.
Another option (NOTE: This is NOT a fix for all FF'ers, just necro's) is to increase the heal of the pets significantly with out enhancements. Or make it so that the zombies have an ae heal (targetted damage, like Darks I think?).
Another idea, since the Defensive Follow option is terrible, change it to Defensive/Any. This wouldn't be a perfect soltuion but it might help, I could then respec out of PFF (amazing that you've taken a great skill and rendered it useless)
Drastically increase the range of supremcy and body guard (although this is more a melee pet fix, it doesn't help FF's all that much.)
Lastly, up our damage! More Damage! means less time I have to try and survive.
Anyway, final conclusions on Bodyguard: Not worth what was taken away from the FF masterminds, you robbed us to feed the many... we need repairs.
As a MM i would like to thank the Devs.
The single most annoying thing about pvp is one shot. Thank you for ending the pain of 3 min of botting up for 1 sec of standing there looking like an idiot.
Thank you for getting rid of 3 min of botting up, it made it a hasle to be in teams and made deaths in the arena be really really bad.
Also, being an mm that trys to have a good pvp/pve build, i think u did a good job in not interfering with the basic playstiyle of the AT u can Choose weather or not to use it.
As a /ff user, i question there wisdom.
Would u take away a aoe heal from a /dark? that is WAAAY better then pff in relation to bodyguard. as said before, it really has become a useless power, because were just gonna use the bodyguard thing in the same why we would pff.
I really like this feature. I'm a lazy and overly cautious player, and with this feature Masterminds have now become the first characters I will up my difficulty to play. It makes things that much easier.
Of course, it makes Masterminds into what I believe is referred to as a "Tank Mage" so that is probably why. With just one minion out they have effectively gained 33% resistance to all. With two it's 50%. With three it's 60%. Four makes 66%. Five makes about 71%. And with six out they have up to 75% resistance to all (they will be taking 2/8 of the damage, or 25%).
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
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Re: Official Thread for Brutes: Electric Shields [Re: Front_Loaded]
#5475529 - 05/08/06 09:52 AM
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Don't know if this has been posted - not too sure on this one, but have to do more testing with it.
It appears if a pet is on bodyguard and buffed with a damage resistance, it is reducing the total amount of damage taken between both of us.
I.e. - I was attacked by Snakes (con white) with my pet on bodyguard, with no buff on the pet. I took approx 7.52pts of dmg between the two of us. When I buffed the pet, had them on bodyguard, and attacked the NEXT group of con white Snakes, I took only 6.52 points of damage.
So if the pet is on bodyguard and buffed - it would appear while reducing the amount of damage THEY take it is also reducing the amount of damage I take.
I'm not saying this is for certain, I have to play with it a little more at higher levels (since low level attacks are a little blehhh).
I have not had a chance to read over all of the pages on this thread so this may have already been said. I'm about to give my most objective take on Bodyguard as it relates to PvP exclusively. I would think that most people who play MMs agree that we really didn't need this inherent for PvE -- at least I didn't. For the purpose of full disclosure, I have a Lv. 40 Bots/Poison and I'm a PvP addict.
As mentioned, I love PvP and have done it with my Brute, Scrapper (2), Controller, Dominator, Corruptor, Blaster, Tanker, and Mastermind. I PvP in the Champion server and for those who know of that server's reputation, it's home to four PvP heavy SGs/VGs (Have A Nice Day, Lunatic Monkey Cults, War Council, and Galactic Empire). That said, I think this provides a great amount of healthy competition and challenge.
When I first thought of Bodyguard, I was excited but quickly thought of the potential problems when applied to PvP. Here are some:
PvP Play Style
When you PvP, your regular play style changes. Your mind set changes. And sometimes your AT build changes. Some people optimize their builds to be more effective for PvP.
There are basically two things you do while you PvP with a team: play the attacker role (blasters, tankers, scrappers) or play the support role (controllers and defenders). Villians are a little bit different since I think everyone can agree that we were built to be able to solo more effectively. Nevertheless, when you PvP with villians, everyone has a role to play: attacker (stalker and brutes) and support (dominators and corruptors). I purposely didn't include Masterminds in either role because the way they stand right now, it's hard to see what their role is. In my case, I always like to think that I'm always the "attacker."
My philosophy is the best defense is a good offense. And if this is the case, then I would like to categorize Masterminds in the attack role. But Bodyguard is contrary to this philosophy since for this inherent to work, you have to:
- Stay in defensive and follow mode
- Be in Supremacy range of your minions
OK, then that would put Masterminds in the "support" role. But there is another problem with this strategy. Anyone who PvPs knows that you have to be in constant movement if not you're an easy target. Movement does not include running, movement in PvP refers to using any of your travel powers that you have available (SS, SJ, TP, Fly). But movement in PvP is contrary to Bodyguard because of the obvious reasons, pet movement -- you're only as fast as your slowest minion.
So what can you do to overcome this?
Travel Powers in PvP
To be efficient in PvP you basically have four travel powers to chose from. Unfortunately there are some travel powers that are more effective than others in PvP, at least for some ATs.
Super Jump is probably the most widely used travel power in PvP. It's fast, provides horizontal and vertical movement, and it's energy efficient.
Super Speed is probably the second most widely used travel power in PvP. It's just fast.
Fly may be the third or a close second for some ATs. It provides range defense and safety. Teleport is hardly useful when you PvP -- nevertheless, some ATs such as Stone Tanks/Brutes prefer this travel power.
All of my toons have Super Jump as their travel power of choice. Some even have Super Jump and Super Speed just so they can be more effective. My Mastermind has Super Jump.
One of the strategies that Masterminds did to overcome pet movement was to select group fly or group teleport. Unfortunately these two powers have major drawbacks.
Group Fly is slow, taxing on endurance, and not reliable to move the entire Mastermind team (player and its toons). What usually happens is that one or two of the pets fall off the Team Fly area of effect.
Group Teleport is a little bit better but you need to spend some slots on the power for it to be more effective (range, endurance reducers, etc.) But it's not effective for PvP as I have tested it since its movement is linear (up or down or side to side).
Then we're back to square one, which is the lack of fast and uninhibited movement for Masterminds (and its minions) doing PvP.
Under the current Bodyguard mode, Masterminds are basically "stationary" targets with little chances to initiate an attack. Here is why:
Lets say that I just zoned and start setting up my bots in Warburg. I obviously have to do this in a "safe" zone so I don't get killed while I'm trying to summon and upgrade them. I start moving with my pets and have be mindful about how Bodyguard works (defense, follow, Supremacy range). If that's the case, then I just have to run through the zone to be relatively safe with Bodyguard. Or move very quickly so my bots would spawn once I'm far away from them.
Lets say that I spot a scrapper. I cannot send my bots after him because I would be defenseless. I cannot move after him because I would leave my bots behind and be defenseless again. I basically have to wait until he comes and attacks me. He does that. My bots react and start attacking him. He Super Jumps or Super Speeds away. My bots go after him. I try to keep up with them but unfortunately I'm only as fast as the slowest pet. My pets and I are in pursuit. The scrapper is way faster and escapes OR just goes around a building and attacks me from behind.
This was a 1v1 scenario. A team scenario would play the same way because, I wouldn't be able to keep up with my team. My team would have to wait for me. In PvP, whether you're an "attacker" or "supporter" you basically have to move together to be effective. The most effective PvP teams are those that stay together but also are in constant movement as a team. A team with a Mastermind will be the slowest team and a far easier team to deal with.
We again are back to square one. What to do?
Well, not much we can do under the current system. Here are some possible fixes.
[b]Pet Movement[b]
I do not see why it wouldn't make sense for your pets to adopt the same travel power that you have. Pets are basically extension of yourself and serve as your primary attack powers. If you Super Jump or Super Speed, they should be able to keep up with you. First tier pets have Super Jump but the IA doesn't use it when they attack a moving target. First tier (and all other pets) basically run after the target. Make it so they move faster.
A potential problem with this is that this still leaves the Mastermid defenseless if they decide to stay behind or can't coordinate his/her movement with those its pets so he/she remains in Supremacy range.
Pets AI
This should be improved so Pets can instinctively know what to do once their master is attacked. For example, I attack a blaster or a blaster attacks me. My pets react. He automatically flies straight up and away. My pets run in circles or away instead of leaping or firing at range.
Change Bodyguard Conditions
This one would be very favorable for all Masterminds. Basically you wouldn't have to be in Supremacy range or defense mode. Bodyguard would activate regardless of what you do while PvP ONLY.
A potential abuse for this could be for me to basically send my bots after a target and I just stay behind and do nothing. The counter argument to that is that pets are not as fast and wouldn't be able to keep up.
The way this would work and be fair for all sides is that Pets would automatically return to their master if they exceed "X" number of yards away. That way it could not be abused. The scenario could play like this:
I'll move with my pets, spot a scrapper, use attack my target, but have to move along with them so they don't stop attacking. You can make the range small so I basically have to be close to my pets and fight along side them. The strategy here would be for me to constantly lure the scrapper to my pets and using myself as bait. If I face a blaster, the strategy would be the same and Bodyguard would give me as much of a chance.
Pet Taunt
Instead of Bodyguard, Pet Taunt would be the other inherent. This way, others would not be able to just focus on us but also have to deal with our pets. Pet Taunt would work the same way it currently works on test for Tankers, which is affected by LoS. So if I attack first, then the player can overcome my Pet Taunt by moving away the LoS.
FINAL THOUGHTS
The Mastermind AT presents probably the most challenging case to make it an effective and contributing PvP toon because of its Pets drawbacks.
I like Bodyguard when it worked because it gave me better odds to at least be competitive or challenging when another player tried to engage me in PvP. But it's VERY limiting in how you can make it work to your advantage. Currently it forces you to be on the defensive and stationary which is highly dretimental to any AT who wants to do PvP 1v1 or in a team setting.
I really would like for Bodyguard to change its settings from defensive to aggressive but with the drawbacks of pets movement and range limitations. I would think that's a much more balanced option that it's currently.
Cheers,
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nothing got taken away from you to add this.
[/ QUOTE ]
Something *DID* get taken away, my ability to effectively challenge people one on one has been decimated.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're making the rather large assumption that the PFF nerf had anything to do with bodyguard. Personally, I think that, right or wrong, some kind of PFF nerf was coming anyway.
As for 1v1 effectiveness, I think that MMs as a class are (with bodyguard) now the kings of 1v1 PvP with the right tactics and right builds. Caveat: It may well be the case that */FF is no longer the best MM PvP build (in which case I definitely feel for you.) I don't have enough experience with it to make a judgment on how much FF's effectiveness had changed. I do think you're underestimating how powerful bodyguard can be, however.
However, so far with my ninja/poison I've beaten every single SG mate (hero and villain) I've faced in the arena except a very well built BS/regen scrapper and then only if he played at 32+ and got headsplitter (my MM is only 30 - no 2nd upgrade and I haven't optimized for PvP yet). If he fought me at 27-31 it was mostly a standoff unless my Oni got his immob stacked on him (which happened once or twice) and my jounin got caltrops down. In which case the ninja's melee in combination with the */poison debuffs (yay -regen!) wiped him out pretty quick.
I've destroyed stalkers, warshades, blasters, corruptors, defenders. Most non high damage builds (everything except the BS scrapper and the fire blapper) I almost don't have to be at the keyboard for. I sat playing "afk" for one bout with an EM stalker and he simply could not kill me before the pets messed him up.
These are not PvP noobs either - these are well tested and powerful "FOTM" builds with competent players behind them.
MM versus MM 1v1 are interesting in a way I hadn't encountered in PvP before. The tactics are not (to me anyway) as straightforward as most arena matches. Do you go for the MM and take his pets replying to you through bodyguard? Do you go at his pets and let him switch to aggressive on you? Do you kill the boss pet first, or work through the minions? How do you fit your debuffs/buffs/attacks into the mix?
It is pretty obvious, however, that the most effective use of this is in a relatively static fight. I'm considering changing super jump out for SS+CJ+hurdle (since I need to stay tethered to supremacy range) I'm definitely picking up the medicine pool ( both for the self heal and aid other).
I haven't had a chance to run with my guild in zone yet to judge how effective my nin/poison would be in a team setting. It seems obvious that it would be less so, but it does not seem obvious that I would suddenly become a liability. It seems more likely that I would be just barely dangerous and mosly not worth the effort to kill without overwhelming firepower (sorta like most tanks, brutes or scrappers). I'm reserving judgement on that until I can get a fair test.
I still do feel that the supremacy range should indeed be increased in both the arena and the zones.
As far as the pets not attacking mobs that attack you in PvE (a different poster), my /bug report on that was acknowledged and the behavior is indeed a bug. They're trying to reproduce it on the internal server now. I'll keep you posted if anything comes out of it.
In the end I think we have to accept that some classes are more PvP appropriate (brutes, corruptors, stalkers) where are some are better suited for strictly for PvE (Masterminds, Dominators).
The more we try to tweak each class for each scenario the more we're going to lose out on the uniqueness. Honestly, I NEVER PvP - although I'm prepared for it when I'm in Warburg getting a missile.
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Nothing got taken away from you to add this.
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Something *DID* get taken away, my ability to effectively challenge people one on one has been decimated.
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You're making the rather large assumption that the PFF nerf had anything to do with bodyguard. Personally, I think that, right or wrong, some kind of PFF nerf was coming anyway.
As for 1v1 effectiveness, I think that MMs as a class are (with bodyguard) now the kings of 1v1 PvP with the right tactics and right builds. Caveat: It may well be the case that */FF is no longer the best MM PvP build (in which case I definitely feel for you.) I don't have enough experience with it to make a judgment on how much FF's effectiveness had changed. I do think you're underestimating how powerful bodyguard can be, however.
However, so far with my ninja/poison I've beaten every single SG mate (hero and villain) I've faced in the arena except a very well built BS/regen scrapper and then only if he played at 32+ and got headsplitter (my MM is only 30 - no 2nd upgrade and I haven't optimized for PvP yet). If he fought me at 27-31 it was mostly a standoff unless my Oni got his immob stacked on him (which happened once or twice) and my jounin got caltrops down. In which case the ninja's melee in combination with the */poison debuffs (yay -regen!) wiped him out pretty quick.
I've destroyed stalkers, warshades, blasters, corruptors, defenders. Most non high damage builds (everything except the BS scrapper and the fire blapper) I almost don't have to be at the keyboard for. I sat playing "afk" for one bout with an EM stalker and he simply could not kill me before the pets messed him up.
These are not PvP noobs either - these are well tested and powerful "FOTM" builds with competent players behind them.
MM versus MM 1v1 are interesting in a way I hadn't encountered in PvP before. The tactics are not (to me anyway) as straightforward as most arena matches. Do you go for the MM and take his pets replying to you through bodyguard? Do you go at his pets and let him switch to aggressive on you? Do you kill the boss pet first, or work through the minions? How do you fit your debuffs/buffs/attacks into the mix?
It is pretty obvious, however, that the most effective use of this is in a relatively static fight. I'm considering changing super jump out for SS+CJ+hurdle (since I need to stay tethered to supremacy range) I'm definitely picking up the medicine pool ( both for the self heal and aid other).
I haven't had a chance to run with my guild in zone yet to judge how effective my nin/poison would be in a team setting. It seems obvious that it would be less so, but it does not seem obvious that I would suddenly become a liability. It seems more likely that I would be just barely dangerous and mosly not worth the effort to kill without overwhelming firepower (sorta like most tanks, brutes or scrappers). I'm reserving judgement on that until I can get a fair test.
I still do feel that the supremacy range should indeed be increased in both the arena and the zones.
As far as the pets not attacking mobs that attack you in PvE (a different poster), my /bug report on that was acknowledged and the behavior is indeed a bug. They're trying to reproduce it on the internal server now. I'll keep you posted if anything comes out of it.
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Only two questions:
1. Did the people that you PvP against, I'm assuming this was done in the Arena or maybe in FC, let you bring your all of your pets and completely upgrade them before they engaged you?
2. Or was this done in a open zone with fully upgraded pets not including FC rules?
Just curious...
Cheers!
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You're making the rather large assumption that the PFF nerf had anything to do with bodyguard.
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Castle has stated (although I couldn't find the post where he was quoted) as saying something like 'Because of upcoming changes to the MM set, PFF had to be reduced' So it's not an assumption, it's from the Devs.
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Caveat: It may well be the case that */FF is no longer the best MM PvP build (in which case I definitely feel for you.)
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We went from first to last, this is a bit extreme IMO. And it's not because of just the PFF nerf, although that hurts, it's a combination of the toggle nerf, pff nerf, and the fact that bodyguard bypasses our pet defenses, combined with our inability to group heal or to debuff our opponents in any way shape or form.
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I do think you're underestimating how powerful bodyguard can be, however.
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It's okay, but it really does suck for offense, especially in a set that is already gimped for offense (PVP)
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then only if he played at 32+ and got headsplitter (my MM is only 30 - no 2nd upgrade and I haven't optimized for PvP yet).
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When I7 comes out I really have no intention of playing in Sirens if I can avoid it, why would I want to? Players really do skyrocket in effectiveness post 32, so you should probably try it again at a higher level.
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*/poison debuffs (yay -regen!) wiped him out pretty quick.
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Force field has no debuffs, which also reinforces my earlier point.
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MM versus MM 1v1 are interesting in a way I hadn't encountered in PvP before.
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Every MM that wasn't FF, 1v1 crushed me that I've fought. Dark are simply insane and poison wasn't much easier. I havent fought a traps or TA yet.
I believe that my post on the previous page stands, the Force field set has been [censored] so that the other MM's could benefit.
The FF set, needs something to counteract the massive amount of nerfs they've been hammered with to pull them out of the basement of PVP usefulness.
It is my belief that NO class should be considered "PVE only" ...ever.
~Walks Among You~
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Only two questions:
1. Did the people that you PvP against, I'm assuming this was done in the Arena or maybe in FC, let you bring your all of your pets and completely upgrade them before they engaged you?
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Mostly arene so far. I specifically told them to come at me as fast as they could - no holds barred. All 3 pet tiers are summoned within a few seconds on startup, faster than the opponent can possibly get to me. The instant the pets show up they're on bodyguard and protecting me while I buff them.
In one match, a stalker AS'd me as I was putting the 2nd pet buff on, my ninjas turned and beat the snot out of him as I finished buffing. (BTW: it was funny as hell to see 7 "ASSASSIN STRIKE" messages go up )
Against the BS/regen with headsplitter (the only one to beat me solo and one of only two to even kill me), I ran like the dickens when I respawned until I could get pets back. He won 4-1 I think. What's amazing about that is that he got the first kill; I managed to get respawned and take him out once. He also told me afterward that he had blown an entire (level 50) tray of inspirations to my half (level 30) tray.
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2. Or was this done in a open zone with fully upgraded pets not including FC rules?
Just curious...
Cheers!
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Haven't done much zone yet (and I never do FC ), but I'm looking forward to trying it. I spent quite a bit of time with both my bots/traps and my nin/poison in BB and Siren's on live over the last few months trying to get a good feel for it, and I think it could be made to work. My only unsurmountable problem on live is (and always was) the blaster or scrapper jumping in and 2 shotting me.
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I believe that my post on the previous page stands, the Force field set has been [censored] so that the other MM's could benefit.
The FF set, needs something to counteract the massive amount of nerfs they've been hammered with to pull them out of the basement of PVP usefulness.
It is my belief that NO class should be considered "PVE only" ...ever.
~Walks Among You~
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Your post has kinda turned from a "bodyguard sucks" (which I disagree with) to a "FF needs help" (which I do agree with.)
Anyway..
Again, I don't play FF so I can't really comment on how much FF has been affected based on personal experience. All I'll say is that I was told before I rolled my nin/poison that ninjas were totally gimp (very weak, melee so they can't get to anything, yada yada yada), but they've turned out to be frighteningly good in the right circumstances. My challenge as a nin MM was to maximize those circumstances.
If you did had to rely mainly on PFF to be effective in PvP, that does sound screwed up. Personally, I think having a "you can't hit me without major buffs" power that you can turn on and off at will is broken (no matter the AT), but if you're saying FF needs a buff to make up for the loss of that, the loss of toggle dropping with force bolt, the ubiquitousness(sp?) of knockback protection (FF's main secondary effect) and the reduction in effectiveness of force bubble, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you.
The other powers in FF do need to be buffed to be more effective IMHO. Force bolt, for one, seems to be pretty useless now (according to what a few FF MM guildies have told me)
Do some tests, show how FF underperforms compared to other sets. Suggest some changes to FF. I'll be right there with you.
Bodyguard by itself, however, is an awesome buff for both PvE and PvP. I'll continue to stand by that.
Running a Robot/Dark
I have found body guard to be great. Overall, I feel less squishy, which is the point. Its great to be able to have some protection while I am mez'ed also because my darkest night has dropped. This is tricky as you have to have pets in defense/follow going into the mez, but well worth the auto-defense that fights back.
I don't PvP much. I might seriously PvP once I get to a level where debt doesn't matter. I played for a good 30mins in sirens call, and joined in an epic battle in the waters north of the villian base. I had one PvP death and one PvP death that resulted in debt. I also helped take down quite a few heroes. The bodyguard system made it so I was no longer just an easy target. I can survive an attack chain now, so that makes me happy as that means that the devs are taking baby steps towards making a 'so-so' fast action fun PvP game (I have high standards for PvP. I've already played tons of enjoyable PvP games).
Freeedom
H: Victra Defile (Rad/Dark) & Hot Hits (Fire/SD)
V: Spike Cream (NW) & Crescent Wind (Nin/Storm)
Sub Hero Inc ARC: 1541
--If you don't like what I have to say, it was probably a typo you are refering to.
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The trick in PvE on test, as it stands now, is to put them into bodyguard right when and only when you're taking a direct attack. With some practice, you can keep them in attack most of the time, recall to bodyguard for a second or so to absorb an incoming attack, then resume beating on your target.
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If I'm opening the fight and my henchman are on def/follow, and bodyguard kicks in, that's all well and good. But to assume that ALL MM players are going to be able to command 6 pets, watch their own plus 6 pet's health, attack, debuff, heal, whatever, AND be able to predict which attacks are aimed at the MM or that an aoe attack is incoming, so that the MM can quickly toggle to bodyguard is a little ridiculous.
Now, that might even be okay if what I was seeing was that my pets actually were in bodyguard mode when set to def/follow, because I'm not seeing it. That's always been my default setting for pets. On test, when my thug is in that mode he doesn't attack back when I take the first shot. Or he doesn't always do that. He may do it sometimes and I'm missing it because he likes to stay behind me for the most part, and he doesn't begin attacking immediately even when I tell him to. However, last night I made sure to get right next to him during a fight and then issue the follow command (while he was in defensive mode) and he stopped attacking and just stood there. While he was getting beat on, and while I was getting beat on. So I wind up issuing an attack command to him which guess what, takes me out of bodyguard mode.
On live, after I'd complete a solo mission, occasionally I get the remains of an ambush if I hang around in the mission. With my pets on def/follow, as soon as the ambush catches up to me and attacks me my pets turn to the attacker(s) and fight back. They are defending me in that instance. Now let's take that example and say...during the return fire by my pets I tell them to follow me. Normally they break off attacking and turn their attention to me. But, if I just stand there, as soon as I'm attacked again my pets turn back to the attacker and return fire. They are after all, still on defensive, they're doing their job.
That isn't what I'm seeing on test.
Since no red name has come in here to say they're looking at it, or it's working as intended, or it's a bug in one type of pet, the only conclusion I can reach about bodyguard is that it sucks.
*edited to add: What I'm saying is that if I am in fact in bodyguard mode , my pet really isn't defensive any more. He's just a damage sponge. If this is what the devs had in mind with BG, I'll pass, thanks. I won't even attempt to use it, provoded that not using it means I can still play my MM as before (in PvE), with the same success.