Official Thread for Mastermind Feature: Bodyguards
By
Agent_Draven,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 13:04 in Developers' Corner
I think when you say ppf you mean PFF (I didn't see anyone giving the abbreviation ppf) which stands for Personal Force Field. It is a high defense shield that prevents you from using any powers that effect anyone but yourself.
OK, I understand the problems with Bodyguard in PVP, but in PVE it's very powerful. For example, how many other archetypes can absorb the alpha from an AV or Hero? What archetype can pull with less personal risk? Several of the complaints here for PVE have pretty easy solutions for me.
The pets won't "Follow"? Use "Heel" (that is, follow and passive) momentarily, then switch back to Bodyguard. This seems to clear the "target memory" of the minions most of the time.
The pets won't attack in Bodyguard until you take damage? Put some of your pets on "Aggressive" and the rest on Bodyguard. That way, when the enemies attack your "Aggressive" pets, the rest will start attacking too. Along this same lines, I directly control only my high-damage pets (if I am directly controlling ANY) while keeping my low-damage ones on Bodyguard. This even helps in PVP some of the time, though I still have the common problems for MM's in PVP.
In other words, I believe that Bodyguard makes the MM the best solo PVE archetype in the game. It's actually kind of similar to playing a WS or PB in PVP, because neither MM's nor Khelds have the hugely powerful attacks that often characterize PVP play (<cough>stalkers<cough>
. But both are probably unsurpassed in most PVE situations.
[ QUOTE ]
OK, I understand the problems with Bodyguard in PVP, but in PVE it's very powerful. For example, how many other archetypes can absorb the alpha from an AV or Hero? What archetype can pull with less personal risk? Several of the complaints here for PVE have pretty easy solutions for me.
The pets won't "Follow"? Use "Heel" (that is, follow and passive) momentarily, then switch back to Bodyguard. This seems to clear the "target memory" of the minions most of the time.
The pets won't attack in Bodyguard until you take damage? Put some of your pets on "Aggressive" and the rest on Bodyguard. That way, when the enemies attack your "Aggressive" pets, the rest will start attacking too. Along this same lines, I directly control only my high-damage pets (if I am directly controlling ANY) while keeping my low-damage ones on Bodyguard. This even helps in PVP some of the time, though I still have the common problems for MM's in PVP.
In other words, I believe that Bodyguard makes the MM the best solo PVE archetype in the game. It's actually kind of similar to playing a WS or PB in PVP, because neither MM's nor Khelds have the hugely powerful attacks that often characterize PVP play (<cough>stalkers<cough>. But both are probably unsurpassed in most PVE situations.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't disagree that Bodyguard is effective in PvE, however it is completely unnecessary. The MM does not get agro in PvE therefor the MM does not need the protection in PvE because the pets are doing all the killing and dying.
Bodyguard is specifically for PvP to prevent the MM from being 1-shotted without the pets even comming into play.
Also, Yes, if you set 1 pet to agressive, the defensive ones will follow suit and attack, but setting 1 to agressive removes 1 of your bodyguards, meaning you and your bodyguards take more damage, and mainly it is a player solution for something the devs need to fix. The script for Defensve states the pets will attack only if you or they are attacked 1st, but they don't.
Also, cycling Defensive to passive and back won't work because Bodyguard takes 5 seconds to activate after the pets are set to Def-Follow. In those 5 seconds it takes you to deal with an AI bug, you have NO protection.
Bodyguard may save your butt in PvP sometimes, but can get you killed in PvE if you are not careful.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't disagree that Bodyguard is effective in PvE, however it is completely unnecessary. The MM does not get agro in PvE therefor the MM does not need the protection in PvE because the pets are doing all the killing and dying.
[/ QUOTE ]
See, that's the point! The MM with Bodyguard has many more options in PVE now, including deliberately taking the alpha strike! I can jump into a group of +1 or +2 Longbow and lead off with Neurotoxic Breath -- it debuffs the enemies AND prevents the alpha from wiping out a couple of pets.
[ QUOTE ]
Bodyguard is specifically for PvP to prevent the MM from being 1-shotted without the pets even comming into play.
[/ QUOTE ]
DVP111, I cordially but firmly disagree with this point. Bodyguard was also in response to the PVE'ers who complained about ambushes targetting the MM and ignoring the pets. Also, in larger groups the MM's (especially debuffers) were always in danger of being wasted by a couple of random shots from a leut or boss in the thick of battle. Bodyguard helps solo'ers and 8-man-team'ers.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, Yes, if you set 1 pet to agressive, the defensive ones will follow suit and attack, but setting 1 to agressive removes 1 of your bodyguards, meaning you and your bodyguards take more damage, and mainly it is a player solution for something the devs need to fix.
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, I see your point, but in my experience having only the 3 tier-1 pets on Bodyguard means I can still easily lead my ninjas into battle -- remember that with only 3 pets on Bodyguard you are only receiving 40% of the damage you would otherwise. 60% damage resistance with your 3 weakest pets on Bodyguard? Incredible! Also a minor quibble: your minions do not receive "more damage" if fewer of them are on Bodyguard; only the MM receives more damage.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, cycling Defensive to passive and back won't work because Bodyguard takes 5 seconds to activate after the pets are set to Def-Follow. In those 5 seconds it takes you to deal with an AI bug, you have NO protection.
[/ QUOTE ]
Heh... good point here. In PVP this can be pretty deadly. Usually in PVE you can do something to protect yourself, but in general I agree that clicking on "Follow" should totally reset the "target memory" of your minions for at least a couple of seconds -- long enough for them to disengage from all enemies and hug the MM.
Also, I am NOT trying to dismiss the genuine concerns in this thread -- yeah, the AI of the pets could use some work, PVP can be dicey, Bodyguard can be circumvented -- but I'm just saying that it is a big buff for PVE and an OK buff for PVP. Keep in mind that MM's basically have 2 inherent powers now: Supremacy and Bodyguard. My COH characters are looking pretty unloved in comparison. My emp defender in PVP? Can you say stalker-fodder?
I guess I should also say that this is very much my own limited experience with my ninja/poison MM. Sometimes, though, I run into other MM's who are like, "Whoa, how did you get only 2 pets to attack that guy?" or "How did you make your Oni stay in one place?".
Also, I know that this is for a VERY small minority of people but -- in the close quarters of a SG base raid, a ninja/poison MM can do incredibly well. Good times.
I would like Bodyguard more if the pet AI wasn't bugged, so they wouldn't:
A. Refuse to return fire even though I am taking damage.
B. Run off leaving BG range even though they are set to Defensive/Follow.
@SBeaudway on Pinnacle, TaskForce Titans Supergroup.
[ QUOTE ]
I would like Bodyguard more if the pet AI wasn't bugged, so they wouldn't:
A. Refuse to return fire even though I am taking damage.
B. Run off leaving BG range even though they are set to Defensive/Follow.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bingo, BG dosent work. I am having those exact problems too.
I still think it is a level 32 Power like Unstoppable that you are giving out for free at level one, well better than Unstoppable really since MM's do more damage and get Defender powers to boot.
Maybe it should be. At level 32. "After patient training over the past 32 levels your inherent power Supremacy, has improved. You now have the Bodyguard ability."
Have you ever been to Sirens Call? You should spend some time there watching the MMs use Bodyguard and decide for yourself.
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
[ QUOTE ]
I still think it is a level 32 Power like Unstoppable that you are giving out for free at level one, well better than Unstoppable really since MM's do more damage and get Defender powers to boot.
Maybe it should be. At level 32. "After patient training over the past 32 levels your inherent power Supremacy, has improved. You now have the Bodyguard ability."
Have you ever been to Sirens Call? You should spend some time there watching the MMs use Bodyguard and decide for yourself.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or you could go there and watch what /regen scrappers do when isntant healing is up. Or what grav troller do with containment damage propel.
My point: Lots of other AT's have some very nice abilities by the time they get to Siren's Call, don't use that as the zone to compare AT's.
[ QUOTE ]
I still think it is a level 32 Power like Unstoppable that you are giving out for free at level one, well better than Unstoppable really since MM's do more damage and get Defender powers to boot.
Maybe it should be. At level 32. "After patient training over the past 32 levels your inherent power Supremacy, has improved. You now have the Bodyguard ability."
Have you ever been to Sirens Call? You should spend some time there watching the MMs use Bodyguard and decide for yourself.
[/ QUOTE ]
A MM has many vulnerabilities, TP foe and AoEs being the best known ones, but not the only ones by far.
As time goes on, and people learn how to fight MMs, the advantage will go away.
[ QUOTE ]
Also a minor quibble: your minions do not receive "more damage" if fewer of them are on Bodyguard; only the MM receives more damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, they do. Not total damage, but damage per pet.
Ex: 100 points of damage coming in.
MM w/ 6 pets in BG mode. MM takes 2/8s or 25 points, and each pet takes 12.5 points of damage.
MM w/ 2 pets in BG mode. MM takes 2/4s or 50 points, and each pet takes 25 points of damage.
I don't have a problem with Bodyguard. I think the MM's need it and gameplay is better overall. I usually switch it on if I get into trouble with my MM. It allows me to be more of a participant in battles since I get some protection from my pets when I need it.
However, I play alot of Alts... alot. All made and levelled the hard way and I think MM's are most similar to Blasters. The damage doesn't spike as much, but it seems about equal over 10 seconds after viewing the results. Masterminds get Bodyguard/Supremacy. Blasters get Defiance which is nothing compared to Bodyguard/Supremacy's many Buffs that are always there working if the MM is near his pet army.
So I think Bodyguard is fine and all the other Inherents should work as well as Bodyguard. If not then Bodyguard will be seen as a very unbalanced Inherent. MM's need it, but many of the older AT's need something as nice and as applicable as Bodyguard and they are just being ignored at the moment.
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
Hi there! 
[ QUOTE ]
So I think Bodyguard is fine and all the other Inherents should work as well as Bodyguard. If not then Bodyguard will be seen as a very unbalanced Inherent. MM's need it, but many of the older AT's need something as nice and as applicable as Bodyguard and they are just being ignored at the moment.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think bodyguard is unbalanced at all. It's great for what it is but hardly imbalanced. Also, once your pets are down it's useless. You'll drop in a flash. It's totally dependant upon your pets and their proximity to you and being in a specific mode to work that FOR it to work AND to use your pets in combat you actually have to take damage.
It's a great "oh crap" utlitiy, or on teams where there's enough aggro being spread out where you can get one guy to hit you and tick off your henchies but solo it'd slow you down and limit your control since the second you issue an attack/passive/stay/aggressive order etc you lose it. You'd have to aggro every group you come to, get hit etc. Solo it's usually safer to just send them in.
Personally I feel it balances itself quite well with its own limitations.
I have only used Bodyguard in PvE, but I think it's an excellent ability that allows more choices for a MM in terms of power selection. It is now possible to create a fun, effective mastermind even if you choose to focus your powers/slots on attacks and the secondary powerset. (MM attacks still have slightly high endurance costs, in my opinion, but that's an issue for a different thread.)
I think that the trade-off of having to have a pet in defensive follow (giving up some control for better defense) is a fine price to pay for the benefit it provides. It's probably a good idea to limit the behavior of the melee pets (ninjas, zombies) so they don't run off and leave the MM stranded, but I prefer the ranged pets and have little experience with that.
Since I have not PvPed with a MM in Issue 7, I can only imagine that in the confines of the arena, it's an incredible advantage (or at least balancing factor, since pre-bodyguard MMs in the arena were two-shotted by any heavy-hitter archetype) to have effectively four times as many hit points.
To sum up, I have no problems with bodyguard, and really appreciate the build flexibility it provides for those MMs who want to focus on their personal offensive capabilities instead of those of their henchmen.
My MM gets ported all of the time in PvP and the only times I get killed are if I get ported onto mines (and that doesn't always kill me) or there are at least 4 heroes and one of them has something that will take away my ability to leap away after popping a BF should I get held or mezzed. It is really not a big deal. Why is that, because I don't spend all my time running around in BG mode!
I see way too many MM's running around in BG mode acting like that is supposed to be the only thing that they have to do. Kind of the same way the PFF guys used to run around behind their bubble sending their pets after everyone.
To me BG mode is a nice thing to help me prevent from getting one shotted by a blapper ambush and allows me to withstand that initial spine/regen scrapper assualt while the stupid animation for darkest night goes into effect.
Prior to BG mode 80% of my deaths were mid animation deaths while attempting to counter an intial attack. Now in BG mode I can at least survive long enough for the powers to kick in and then switch it up to pure aggressive or some variation of mixed and aggressive depending on how many people I am fighting and what the AT's are.
Also keep in mind, not every MM build is suited for PvP the same way not every Blaster, Scrapper, Brute or Corruptor build is either. Mine happens to be Merc/Dark with Leaping/Teleport as my travel powers.
The key to getting kills in PvP as an MM is mobility and proper delpoyment of resources, not BG mode. BG mode is just one of the tools, not a crutch.
What I'd like to see them do is give us an extra damage bonus when we have the pets in attack my target mode even if it is just for a few seconds. Even though we may be able to do the same amount of damage as a blaster over 10 seconds (which I don't think is accurate, especially when one factors in BU + AIM), most heroes don't sit still long enough to make that happen and a good percentage of my targets wind up in running away with a quarter bar of life before I can finish them off.
what do you mean PPF?