Official Thread for Recluses Victory: PvP Zone

So the MMs and Brutes cut bait while the Corruptors and Doms do the fishing. For some reason, this still doesn't sound appealing... or like PvP to me. Sounds oddly enough like PvE. Pardon the sarcasm, but in the grand scheme of things, I would have to say that if a scrapper/blaster can do enough damage to be a frontliner, why is something that is supposed to build up more damage the more s/he gets hit and hits... sitting in a bubble pointing guns at people? You have seriously got to admit that something is way wrong here. I thought villains were supposed to be more offensive fighters, while heroes are on the defensive? Where is this damage/accuracy thing supposed to be? How is it that the healers/buffers/debuffers/ranged attacks are the ones that are the only capable fighters in RV? The only good set to play is the most defensive?

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... there was a time when goin to the hollows was terrifying. You had debt at level 5 and you had to bust your rump to get rid ot it...

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Up hill, in the snow, both ways?

No offense, the tone just brought back memories of my grandfather's "Back in my day..." speeches.

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... there was a time when goin to the hollows was terrifying. You had debt at level 5 and you had to bust your rump to get rid ot it...

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Up hill, in the snow, both ways?

No offense, the tone just brought back memories of my grandfather's "Back in my day..." speeches.

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Well, back in MY day we didn't have no fancy Hollers or yer gol-danged pee vee pee!!! We hunted Skulls and Hellions and Hydra in Perez and we LIKED it.

I hear ya thor and i understand Ya'lls point.
imho, A team of corrupters doing well in RV isn't a good case to show that high level villains are competitive in pvp. It shows 1 villain AT can compete and do it well, that's it.
Pentad vs pentad would be the best case.

I am glad ya'll are doing well and I hope to come help this weekend. But, assuming high level villains can be competitive based on the performance of one AT is jumping the gun a bit.

If your LOTD buds would have said a Corrupter team can be competitive in high level pvp I would agree, but the question is about all AT's, not just one. Heck, I bet we could find an effective all defender team but that would only show that defenders can be competitive. Get my gist?

I can't wait to see you guys in action. It will make me happy to see any villain AT do well in high level pvp, but I hope more of us can be effective too.

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So the MMs and Brutes cut bait while the Corruptors and Doms do the fishing. For some reason, this still doesn't sound appealing... or like PvP to me. Sounds oddly enough like PvE. Pardon the sarcasm, but in the grand scheme of things, I would have to say that if a scrapper/blaster can do enough damage to be a frontliner, why is something that is supposed to build up more damage the more s/he gets hit and hits... sitting in a bubble pointing guns at people? You have seriously got to admit that something is way wrong here. I thought villains were supposed to be more offensive fighters, while heroes are on the defensive? Where is this damage/accuracy thing supposed to be? How is it that the healers/buffers/debuffers/ranged attacks are the ones that are the only capable fighters in RV? The only good set to play is the most defensive?

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Yup, something totally wrong with this.
Its currently manifesting this way because the devs have made buffing/debuffing/healing/status effects overly relevant in CoX - IMO.
Its also one of the leading factors (for me) that kills the immersion.
I dont see the hulk or the joker getting spam healed and buffed so they can live up to being the hulk or the joker.

Theres simply too much status and buff jacking, not enough comic-book, knock-down drag out fights.
Heroes and villains alike dont have comic book survivability at all - this right seems reserved purely for the signature CoX AV/Hero's, while we make hospital trip after hospital trip.

Like I said before - all well and good that a team of corrupters own. Go with it and maximize it.

But like manchu said - if the highest HP villain AV, with the best defenses villain side, with the highest damage and buff potential in the game is relagated to the sidelines and refilling the water cooler - theres something deeply wrong, and that something is in direct conflict with comic-book influence.

If thats the way it works out - thats the way it works out - ill gladly play ball and do whatever is within my means to be the best team-mate I can be.

But it just basically broadcasts to me that the healing/buffing/debuffing/status-jack fest has gotten out of control.

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So... get vent, roll a corruptor, team with other corrupters and a dominator = win RV. Gotcha.

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That's pretty much what I'm getting out of this as well. If you aren't a corrupter or dominator don't bother showing up to RV.

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This is just the first thing thats worked. I think there is a high likelyhood that MM's can and will contribute in this zone, we just don't have enough high level MM's that aren't playing other critical characters right now. Brutes can actually do well focusing on destroying turrets, but because the Fury bug in PvP they don't do well against other players in "straight up" combat. Stalkers are the ones that lose some ground. They don't have the team synergy and solo they are more challenging here than in the other zones. This isn't to say they don't have uses or can't be good, but they are countered pretty thoroughly by current common hero builds.

In short the best way I see a VG taking the zone is by having a two teams. One a roving assault team to engage hero groups and the second (or more) is a turret capture team. The assault team will have mostly Cor's and Dom's while the turret works well with more MM's and Brutes with a Thermal Cor or two.

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Thor is correct. Our testing with MM's and Brutes shows that there most likely role is that of guarding and protecting the turrets that have been taken. The MM's simply can't get from place to place quickly and safely enough to offensive purposes, and the brutes lack range. But for guarding turrets and pushing back close range attacks, both of those AT's would be suitable. Even stalkers might be better off helping MM's and brutes protect turrets.

So I wouldn't say those two AT's are useless, but their role is best suited for guarding and protecting. Anyone who's PVP'd in RV reguarly knows that turret fights are pretty furious, so its not like the people guarding them have a cake job.

The devs have already stated that Brutes need a fury fix, but that is gonna be a little longer coming.

Everyone has been saying that doms are useless and only stalkers are good in pvp, well here are a bunch of squishies (including doms) doing well against 3x odds, and all you people can do is gripe (more). I thought going up against trollers with status protection and uber fire balls, tier-9 scrappers, and the dreaded Focused Accuracy meant villains had zero chance?

Where is my eyeroll emote?

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So the MMs and Brutes cut bait while the Corruptors and Doms do the fishing. For some reason, this still doesn't sound appealing... or like PvP to me. Sounds oddly enough like PvE.

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Ok, let me clarify, Brutes have problems in PvP because of a known bug, they gain Fury much more slowly than was intended and _Castle_ is working to find a solution.

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Will Brutes' Fury not building properly in PVP get fixed?


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I've not figured out a way to get it working yet. It's possible I *can't* get it to work as described...


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Because of this, Brutes are relegated to "cutting bait". MM's on the other hand have one challenge to being in the assault team, they are dependent on their minions for both damage resistance and damage output, and pets don't move as well as players do. We are going to do some testing with MM's and I think we will work out some strategies that get around the problem of getting from one battle to the next. If we can get that worked out I would see the assault team adding an MM and possibly even 2 depending on the secondaries.

In addition, its important to remember that the turret team will be fighting players almost as much as the assault team will. In fact, in military terms the turret team is actually the line unit, who is taking and holding ground, with what we have termed the assault team supporting them.



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I thought villains were supposed to be more offensive fighters, while heroes are on the defensive? Where is this damage/accuracy thing supposed to be? How is it that the healers/buffers/debuffers/ranged attacks are the ones that are the only capable fighters in RV? The only good set to play is the most defensive?

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What you're pointing out is actually a key piece of how the game operates, but not neccesarily how I think it should operate. In CoX buffs >>>>>>debuffs and because of this the only way to counter a buffed team is not by debuffing them, though some of that is useful, its more by buffing up your team mates so that they are on equal footing. I don't really like that mechanic, but that's how it works right now.

I personally think that the devs have made big strides in terms of villain AT balance, but certainly there are still problems. Cors are going to form the backbone of any villain PvP team simply because buffing is so important and MM's buff's are less effective for the most part. MM's also have problems with very fluid battlefields since they depend on their pets. However, if you can get past the movement issue or in smaller venues, MM's are very good. Doms quite simply kick [censored] now. They need the support of a team for mez protection and healing, though a */Energy Dom with Power Boost and Aid Self does pretty well in that dept. The Domination change and their ability to drop toggles with their melee attacks (64% to drop one is the highest percentage except for MM & Cor Trip Mine) makes PvP Doms very happy.

I may try and write some of this up in a more coherent format, but in short things look better for villain team PvP than they ever have. Brutes have the most legit complaint right now IMO.

By the way I'd like to go on record as supporting earned prestige for all kills regardless of zone control (say 50 prestige). The side who controls the zone could then get a bonus (up to 150 prestige).

We want the zones to promote and encourage PVP. Look at what happens in Sirens when zone control is impossible or possible with several hours of work, people leave and the zone gets boring. If you want to encourage people to come to the zone and fight, there should be a reward from the start. Then by zone control that reward increases.

Make no mistake that prestige for base raids is going to be a big deal, and a contant PVP outlet for earning prestige (instead of mob bashing) is desireable.

It would also be nice to see prestige earned for all PVP zones (IMHO) because it would provide a way for people of all levels to contribute towards thier base, etc.

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The devs have already stated that Brutes need a fury fix, but that is gonna be a little longer coming.

Everyone has been saying that doms are useless and only stalkers are good in pvp, well here are a bunch of squishies (including doms) doing well, and all you people can do is gripe (more).

Where is my eyeroll emote?

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I dunno maybe next to your /put on glasses emote?

Read the sig - I play a dom, I know all about it.
Also - read the post.
I said go with it and maximize it if it works.
You decided to make it a squishy/meaty issue for some reason.
Im not interested in an arguement like that which has nothing to do with my post.
I also am aware of the fury fix- im very much looking forward to it.

But theres plenty of reason to gripe imo.
Sorry if you dont want to read that.
Theres already plenty of fanboy's running around gawking at all the sunshine and flowers that are falling out of every dev's behind.
I love the game, apprecciate the devs. I wouldnt be posting if I didnt.

I have issue with how buffs/debuffs/heals and status effects are dominating the pvp game and are overly critical in the pve game additionally.
They need to do more damage and less status in PvP imo, so the debuffs/controls powers stay relevant, but not overpowered.

Same things with buffs/debuffs healing AT's - more damage, less importance on the buff itself.

Or my protection has to be better, because currently they can be overcome with ease.


I just got out of RV before todays maintenance after going in with a full tray of BF's.
Thats around 26 at lvl 40.
I lasted a little over 5 mins, and the spam fears and confuses still broke through.

Read it and call it whatever you want: whine, nerfherd, crying - whatever makes you feel better.

I want status effects to stay, I want debuffing to stay - I want AT's that use them to be able to overcome my protection.
Its what they do.
It would be nice if they couldnt overcome it so easily.

I just dont get how wanting my defenses to be present and effective in PvP = eating babies and wanting god mode around here.

Is that so bad considering the heroes have 2 healing/buffing/debuffing AT's with status effecting capability while the villains have 1 - and who have it as a secondary?

Is is so bad that I want my AT to be what I signed on for?

If a team of corrupters rocks - go with it maximize it, make it the best you can. Im not trying to take that away from anyone.

Corrupters are potent and as the LoTD guys have pointed out ( and believe due to my own experience) are amazing as a team in pvp.

I have to go to a corrupter and get buffs if im expected to be able to hang on the front line.

Ok..so they can own out of the box, but I have to go hooking for buffs to hang as a brute? - and I have the highest HP's and damage potential villain side with status protection and defenses to boot.

Yeah - I must be drunk - that sounds like a totally unreasonable request.

Sorry if people dont like that - but the more I pvp the more I think buffs/debuffs/heals and status effects have become overly important and hero/villain survivability as a whole is way way too low.

The fights should be longer and more true to comics.
You dont see The Thing constantly needing Sue Richards for buffs so he can live up to himself, and you dont see The Joker buff hooking at The Yellow Lantern's coat-tails to take on Batman.

But they help.


Is the fact that I play mostly a brute in PvP more than likely skewing my viewpoint?
Of course it does! How couldnt it?
Does that somehow nullify or render my opinion irrelavent?
No, hardly - especially since I see this very same experience documented by other players.

It is always said the game isn't balanced for 1 vs 1... this is my view of the current balance:

1-2 Damage AT's > 1-2 Support AT's
2-3 Damage AT's = 2-3 Support AT's
4+ Damage AT's <<< 4+ support AT's

Anyone that has ever run an all defender, controller, or corrupter team knows this is true. You can make even more potent combinations with some mixing, but the price of being good in a duo or solo is reduced contribution to a group. That is how this game is balanced.

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It is always said the game isn't balanced for 1 vs 1... this is my view of the current balance:

1-2 Damage AT's > 1-2 Support AT's
2-3 Damage AT's = 2-3 Support AT's
4+ Damage AT's <<< 4+ support AT's

Anyone that has ever run an all defender, controller, or corrupter team knows this is true. You can make even more potent combinations with some mixing, but the price of being good in a duo or solo is reduced contribution to a group. That is how this game is balanced.

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There's some truth to this, but it assumes that the support ATs sit in a pile AND that the damage ATs come forward like little lapdogs and attack that pile.

Same thing for teams in general. How many times have you seen established teams sit behind their bubbles, their buffs, and their vents and wait for the solos to run up to them and be killed?

Solos/dam dealers do that little death dance because it's fun and a challenge, not because it's most efficient. If doms require more than one to be effective, then you don't fight more than one. You pick them off in transit, or you tp them to where you want to kill them.

I'm beginning to think that RV may be more fun than the other zones, because there is some motivation for teams to MOVE AROUND -- rther than just sit on the beach in warburg and do their broadcast taunt thing.

Of course, there are currently villains sitting outside of the base in RV too, so I don't know if the motivation to take the bases is great enough to force people to accept some risks. We'll see.

I still tend to think that taking the bases will get old and roaming the zone for the prestige bonuses or whatever is going to start to look and feel like farming the freak missions, with only the truly dedicated (or addicted) doing it over and over and over again.

Just like work.

But we'll see.

use recall friend on a mm from over 200 yards away, it'll tp his pets with him

so go from pillbox to pillbox quickly that way

That's one of the strategies we're thinking about, it just means that someone else has to give up a power.

The fact as I see it is that in order to take a pillbox or turrets is that you need a good team of ranged attacks and meat shields brutes(and mm) can't be left to def only I agree that they may be best to defend but going after a turret with no brutes or MMs is crazy whos going to take the dmg a Corr? or Dom? won't last long.... The turrets have a good self def system unless heros or villains get a large number of toons to take a turret a few stalkers and a mm or 2 should do just fine. but only time will tell after .. i'll adimt my time in RV is limited to only a few hours.. I can't stand the lag but after it goes live and villians get up to 50 we'll see.

Damage from the turrets < resistance buffs

Its really quite manageable to take the turrets with an all squishy team, it just takes a bit longer than a Fury'ed Brute. The turret damage looks like its all S/L so its not really a problem.

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Yep, well once the children that Drone teleport for 2 hours straight leave the zone it actually becomes fun..

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There's an easy way around this, of course: Stay away from the opposing base.

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That is true.. but when there are no villains around, except for the ones hiding in the base, what to do? Try and kill level 54 turrets.. ehh too hard, try to tackle a AV that can 1 shot you? No thanks. I'm thinking this will be solved by the time i7 goes live, and more villains get to 50.. but we'll see.

Villains generally hide in the base because the turrets are camped, the base is camped, the bots are camped, and they want to go for the single targets but get omgbbqpwned whenever they leave the base or do the other fun stuff. Most of the time it is just hanging out waiting for the heroes to leave the base alone.

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Yep, well once the children that Drone teleport for 2 hours straight leave the zone it actually becomes fun..

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As opposed to folks like you who TP villains out of the base and into the 15 hero strong gank squad waiting just outside drone range? Funny how every night I log into RV I can expect to see some version of Sal's character huddled nice and tight in his PFF until it's time to TP gank some villain who's just trying to get into the zone. Hypocrites make the best whiners.

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And i find that funny that i haven't even tped someone OUT of the base into a group of +8 of heroes since the first day i7 went live, and even that it was the people that were tping.. --Boost range will forever be better then drones :P--

Oh.. and take a better look at my powers next time.. only one respec'd version of my blaster has tp foe and boost range, the one thats always in RV.. in PFF is my good PvP build WITHOUT tp foe. (and even tping into a group of heroes is not as bad as drone teleporting... you walk what? 10 feet click a teleporter and you are outside villains base again? but heroes have to ss/sj/fly/teleport all the way to the base again just to get tped into another drone!)

yeah whats the deal with the turrets? some are lv 50 and some are lv 54...

being +4 to everyone in the zone seems pretty ridiculous, the purple patch makes them way harder than they should be

No one ever admits that they TP Gank folks unless the are SiDu or GoV, and they just say it to flamebait people.

Also, in game, villains can no longer info a hero. All we see is *someone* TP Ganking and make the broad generalization and drone anyone camping the base.

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And i find that funny that i haven't even tped someone OUT of the base into a group of +8 of heroes since the first day i7 went live, and even that it was the people that were tping.. --Boost range will forever be better then drones :P--

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If you say so. I may just be remembering you from that one day because you're the only one I've seen that uses Boost Range to TP gank.

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Oh.. and take a better look at my powers next time.. only one respec'd version of my blaster has tp foe and boost range, the one thats always in RV.. in PFF is my good PvP build WITHOUT tp foe.

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As wook said, I can't see your powers. But now that you mention it, I don't normally see you TPing when using PFF. I guess by "good PvP build", you meant the build you use to stand around for hours being obnoxious and not actually engaging in any type of combat.

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(and even tping into a group of heroes is not as bad as drone teleporting... you walk what? 10 feet click a teleporter and you are outside villains base again? but heroes have to ss/sj/fly/teleport all the way to the base again just to get tped into another drone!)

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Unless Rest hasn't even had time to recharge from the last TPgank induced trip to the hospital.

If you're trying to claim the moral high ground because you have to use a travel power to cross a subsection of Atlas Park...well...can we at least get a rim shot, because that's comedy gold.

I have one version of my 50 hero with no travel power at all (specced for Arena), just sprint, swift, and hurdle slotted to move fast in enclosed areas...and even she can get across AP in less than 15 seconds.

I guess it's okay that you get a kick out of being a camper, to each his own. I just think it's ironic that you don't hesitate to whine when someone chomps a few yellows and drones you through PFF when you could have just as easily gone away on your own.

Well this is what is to be expected when there is no Teleport defense for people.

I actually posted a long time ago on a post from positron about the pvp zones and said that Teleport foe would become very much abused is what would happen.

What the developers should do is make it so that certain places will not allow that power to work is all...

And that would stop alot of the telport into drones and telport out of a base in to a group of people.

But then again perhaps a more elegent solution would be to have roving patrol type non-players with teleport foe powers that will show up every so often and teleport people.

in that way if a so called Gank group shows up, if they hang around too long they will assurdely start getting teleported by enemies just as they are doing to other people.

Another solution i think that would be neat would be a teleport foe supression...they totaly wailed on the holds in that way...so why not on teleport foe.

After a missed teleport foe or a successful one the player cannot be teleported with teleport foe for say 2 to 5 minutes after wards.

And in that way, it wont become easy for people to stand back and keep trying to teleport knowing full well if they keep trying eventually they will succeed.

instead they will be penalized and unable to cheese everyone else, they will have to change targets,

And in addition if such an effect is put in place....then players trying to telport someone else should be given a message telling them why they failed.
And also the players who get teleport foe attempts on them should have a message and maybe somthing designating the player who tried telporting them.

In that way not only will people not have to waste time trying to telport people but also the people constantly targeted will be able to get revenge just like the computer controlled enemies if they so choose to try.

If they can't camp the villain/hero base, they camp the bot spawn points.
If they can't camp the bot spawn points, they camp the turrets.

This zone is very camp heavy. The biggest part of why SC was fairly successful in preventing this was the hotspots were overrun with arachnos and longbow. The prevented in a way the smaller groups to stand back a bit and evened out the zone with the possibility of debt. This was not so much a deterrant for heroes, however, because at 50 you only accrue debt and lose it with the exemplaring.

This is quite a predicament. I see this zone becoming more fun when sec level 50 villains are more populous and the dual/triple boost enhancements are available. Then the debt payback/prestige will seem more appealing to the villains. This may be more 3:1 with heroes dominating the zone until everyone is up to snuff. I think the AVs popping up at the bases is a good facsimile for the hordes of mobs, but it may also be a farming aspect as well.

I decided to try it on the other side today, and logged in my lvl 50 Invuln/Em tank out of mothballs onto test. Let me say this...wow...I can solo an anchor point with little difficulty, and I wracked up in the area of 50 rep just hopping around destroying villain teams solo. Nerf Tankers :OP (jk) but seriously, something is wrong when I can literally hop into a smallish (4 man team) expect to kill 2 or even 3 of them, and get away without much fear of death. The hardest part of the whole zone is the large mobs of flying Mu and their end drain, not the Villains...

Points of note: FA+Tactics+Invincibility=no wiffs vs tier 9 defense powersets-Many a stalker found out that you can't expect to rely on just elude/kuri attack then run away with me

The villains with PPP's didn't do any better than those without PPP's-if a squishy had armor they met with my stun, if they had a debuff it was never enough to matter before they died.

The villain base needs to be opened up more-less camping but also less tp foe spam because of the greater area.

The only time I died all night besides being Droned was to a team of about 12 villains who stacked a ton of slows, immobs on me and even then if i had teleport I could have gotten away before dying.