Official Thread for Recluses Victory: PvP Zone

Nemo_Utopia · 06-02-2006 02:51 PM

In the interest of not causing qwo73w47s!!1!(tm), and recognizing that you ARE trying to aim for the best, I'll do this instead and not get offended:

We both seem to want the same thing, but disagree on the best implementation. In this case, we may just have to agree to disagree. You do make some good arguments, and are reasonable. However, you make a lot of contradictions: you say that Blasters overcome high defense with Aim and BU...and then say you're against (and that it would be unbalanced to have) a smaller Domination +Acc or +ToHit buff that grows as the bar does. I'm not saying "large" or "massive", and especially nowhere even near what Aim can do by itself. I'm saying that it being there can be an easily balanced mechanic, if left as something that allows a Dom to land hits the longer they stay in a battle (that 10-15 seconds say), and would allow them to...well...dominate better without going overboard and making defense completely not matter at all (which the suggested change of untyped WOULD). You also call my mention of "gods" hyperbole....but you know perfectly well what I'm talking about. You then mention that defense vs resistance is unbalanced against holds (meaning def >>> res), but neglect that resists are far better than defense against non-mez heavy builds...an imablance that causes its own issues, and makes certain builds far better against these types than a defense build can ever hope to be. When you mention %s for defense, you're also forgetting a very key factor: defense inspirations (oh, yeah, people carry those too...). A defense inspiration SHOULD provide...well...defense! Untyped damage/attack means these inspirations do nothing, and remove even more variety and strategy from inspiration trays. We do, however, both agree that BFs are a problem. What EXACTLY that problem is (and how to fix it), I don't really have any ideas on. Your arguments against the slippery slope are sadly true however, and I suspect the reason we don't see them...but do precisely what you're asking: allow Doms to compete. It's another thing that can be specifically Dom. You can't have both sides: Mez needs to be stronger / protection weaker, or it stays where it is....there's not really a middle ground there. This is another thing that could be Dom specific, to prevent other builds from benefiting and giving Doms the needed boost. You also seem to have missed the point of the "lingering effect": it's not an extension of the full magnitude, but 1/3 to 1/6 of the original magnitude. That by itself isn't even enough to overcome Acrobatics...but stacked 6-9 times can allow another mez of the same type to overcome the protection, and can help balance groups. Yes, I understand this doesn't address your specific gripe as well as the others: defense builds....but the things that do, you don't like, and it is a possibility to allow Doms to contend. A Damage buff is a sadly needed thing as well, but its own seperate issue (and frankly, Doms do just need a flat buff across the board...this is about the one across the board change you'll see me approve of). You may dislike TD...but it IS a way to overcome what the more capable enemies are doing. I agree, a rollback was necessary...for ATs like Blasters, Scrappers, Brutes, Stalkers, Corruptors, Controllers,and perhaps Tankers. But Doms (and Defenders) should never have suffered such a severe rollback, and Mastermind sets needed to get looked at individually. It may be hard to swallow for some...I'm not a wholehearted TD fan, but it is, frankly, a useful mechanic that is able to be balanced.

In the end, still, you specifically are looking for is that either high defense sets not be quite so defending against Doms, the mez resist from such sets not be so high, or a combination of both. There are ways to do it. My ideas may not be the best (in fact, there's probably a good way we're both missing). But untyped negates it wholly...and makes resits >>> defense. Which just causes another problem, and is the point I've been trying to make.

Lycantropus · 06-03-2006 02:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
We do, however, both agree that BFs are a problem. What EXACTLY that problem is (and how to fix it), I don't really have any ideas on.

[/ QUOTE ]Simple. Only allow them to work/ be used after you're mezzed to break out of it, not for pre-emptive protection. It's called "break free" not "evade being held at all". Kinda draconian, but if it completely negates an AT's usefulness just by popping one, then it's too powerful as it is.

As for those with "armor" powers, I'm with you Anglican in disliking toggle drops (as I see a power activation as an "act of will" that is on as long as you "will" it to be) the best course of action, in my humble opinion, for Defense vs. Resist based sets could be likewise as simple.

Lower the ammount of "holds" required to lock them down, and adjust even more against Defense based sets. Say it takes 4 now to "lock down" any well-slotted Scrapper type (rhetorical number... not sure how many it is now off the top of my head)

Well, for Resist based characters, reduce that number to 3. Defense based characters, reduce it to 2. It may still not be exactly a match hold for hold, but that's 2 less to lock down an SR Scrapper than it is now (in this rhetorical discussion).

However, again, to compensate for the easier ability to get a "hold" on "armored" characters, and therefore allowing Controllers and Dominators more worth to their Primaries in PvP, holds don't drop toggles (Just to specify, you couldn't activate new ones while held, but already active ones stay active).

Being unable to fight back, run, or take any other action is bad enough in PvP... especially if that Dom or 'Troller has a Stalker/Brute or Blaster/Scrapper buddy respectively. Without toggles, short of a few more HP, Tanks and Scrappers are just as squishy as the next AT (which is why it's so hard to get a "lock down" on them, I imagine). Now, if those "holds" don't drop toggles, then it's possible to allow them to actually get "held" more often because they'll be able to take more of the punishment that comes from it than with no toggles on. This lack of Toggle dropping will be helpful to all the other "squishy" AT's too, as they'll be able to maintain whatever forms of aid they have for themselves or their allies (Buffs/Debuffs like from their main Powersets, or Leadership, or Fighting... etc.) helping with their overall survivability in many cases too. That'll also help shorten the gap betwen those who have mez protection, and those that don't. It may not be much comfort to the "squishies" but it's more than they have now.

Also, everyone will be more inclined to carry a few break frees, since they'll need one every time they're held... but it won't be a death sentence due to total helplessness if they do get held (for more AT's/Powersets than currently so at any rate) lessening the need and/or use for them to when it's really important/ strategically useful...

Remember the new rule they've made in that you're immune for a short period to something that's already held you. That would be the new duration point for Break Frees, as opposed to pre-emptive use. Since they've been held, they pop that break free, and the new rule makes them immune to that hold for a short while, not because of the break free, but because they were held to begin with... however, they have to be held at least once for it to work. Otherwise, that break free in your tray does nothing, and the immunity doesn't occur...

Thoughts?

"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.

geombear · 06-03-2006 09:34 AM

if that dom is teaming with a brute, couldnt your scrapper be teaming with a defender, with a power to break you free from a hold?

we can play the what if game all day. I say that holds should still drop toggles

pvp balance is real tough, i've given up at it

Nemo_Utopia · 06-03-2006 09:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
if that dom is teaming with a brute, couldnt your scrapper be teaming with a defender, with a power to break you free from a hold?

we can play the what if game all day. I say that holds should still drop toggles

pvp balance is real tough, i've given up at it

[/ QUOTE ]

Nevah give up! Nevah, surrender! Or, be a Stalker and run away like a little girl

Lycantropus · 06-03-2006 10:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
if that dom is teaming with a brute, couldnt your scrapper be teaming with a defender, with a power to break you free from a hold?

[/ QUOTE ]Yup. I don't see how that would be any different than it is now, except that with the changes I proposed, that Brute/Scrapper would still get held more often, and easier, making Dominators and Controllers more useful in PvP than they are now. In my scenario, that would just mean that they don't have to worry as much about being well-stocked with break frees.

As it is, they can already have a Defender/Corrupter on team that can break holds, with that Scrapper, Tank, or Brute already possessing a high chance of not getting held to begin with from their armors. In my proposed changes, they would still provide a noticeable benefit, and Scrappers and Brutes would still get held more often. I'm not seeing how that's relevant to my suggestion..

[ QUOTE ]
we can play the what if game all day. I say that holds should still drop toggles

[/ QUOTE ]Even if it's easier for Dom's and 'Trollers to get a lockdown like I suggest? As it is, in my opinion, I believe that's why mez resistance works so well now. It's that binary proposition of all but insta-win in PvP against the "armored" AT's (having played Scrappers and Brutes in PvP, toggle dropping is a death sentence. This is usually true in PvE too).

The difference between a toggled up Scrapper/Tank/Brute/even Stalker, is huge to one whose toggles have dropped (as I said before, short of a few more HP and maybe a mild passive or two, those AT's who have "armor" powers are just as vulnerable as any squishy if their toggles are dropped).

I'm just looking for the "happier medium" (I realize it probably wouldn't be the actual happy medium, but better than it is now) Dom's and 'Trollers should get better, and more consistent use, of their Primaries in PvP, yet not be the "easy button" either. What would you suggest?

[ QUOTE ]
pvp balance is real tough, i've given up at it

[/ QUOTE ]Then why start a debate about it, or attempt to shoot down someone who's still willing to try?

"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.

Sgt_Liberty · 06-03-2006 12:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would love to have holds do something like this, but it still doesnt change how an SR scrapper will be missed and unaffected while a fire tank will be hit and affected. The tank has higher mag protection, but is actually weaker to a hold due to being able to be hit. The same is true for a regen scrapper. Why should a regen resist holds worse than a SR scrapper? Again, the basic item here is that a regen scrapper has a certain mag resistance that must be overcome to be affected. An SR scrapper has the same mag level, but also cant be hit, making him virtually immune to mez while the regen is merely extremely hard to affect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because... THAT IS WHAT +DEF IS SUPPOSED TO DO. Ice Tanks, Stone Tanks, Energy Aura, Ninjitsu, etc etc, all have the same benefits.

A better question is, why do you think you should be able to hit someone with +Def as often as someone without +Def?

Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast

geombear · 06-04-2006 11:27 AM

Hibernoob · 06-04-2006 01:15 PM

I'll be back with more later, but I gotta say that the recent change to Heavies is not working.

Logged out once under Atlas, near a derelict Heavy someone had left and that had been sitting there the whole time I was in-zone. Logged back on 5-6 hours later. The Heavy was still there.

You're going to need to apply a bit more brainpower to the problem. Maybe an AI in the Heavy when it is released, so it will wander around and get PvE aggro or something to kill it off. I dunno.

But this current system sucks pretty hard, IMO.

SpawnLOD · 06-21-2006 07:59 PM

Teleport Foe needs to be removed in this zone. A new griefing tactic is to TP someone into a mob of bosses and such so people die and get a massive amount of debt. So now the zone is almost empty except for the griefers that run off all the people that come into the zone to check it out.

geombear · 06-21-2006 08:29 PM

hopefully the new debt fix in pvp will alleviate those problems, if the devs get it working right

InkMan_NA · 06-27-2006 02:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Teleport Foe needs to be removed in this zone. A new griefing tactic is to TP someone into a mob of bosses and such so people die and get a massive amount of debt. So now the zone is almost empty except for the griefers that run off all the people that come into the zone to check it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

just know that: orange inspirations help you resist TP foe...
. . yellow inspiration helps you see invisible
. . enemies...

there are few greifing tactics that cannot be neutralized with some ingenuity. Last night i found a way into the hero hospital in RV (with help from Hell Crusher)
poor unsuspecting heroes where getting AS'd as they rezzed in their hospital... untill a real heroic toon started granting invisibility to all heroes just as they ressurected in the hospital

when that one got tired a new hero took his place which completely neutralized my exploit... even had to enlist some hero aid to get me out of the hospital (ty Jetstorm)

just want to say that sometimes its the little detais that people complain about that really can bring out the villanousness in villains and the heroic in a hero

Snow Globe · 06-27-2006 07:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
there are few greifing tactics that cannot be neutralized with some ingenuity. Last night i found a way into the hero hospital in RV (with help from Hell Crusher)
poor unsuspecting heroes where getting AS'd as they rezzed in their hospital... untill a real heroic toon started granting invisibility to all heroes just as they ressurected in the hospital

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, well, aren't you a <CENSORED>.

Camping in the opposing force's hospital is griefing and an exploit.

The fact that you found a way to return to the hero hospital multiple times after you were defeated, just goes to show everyone what a jerk you are.

Yes, I got on my SG's forums this morning and heard exactly what you did, and how you did it. Just be glad it was 2 SG mates of mine that you were annoying, and not me.

I would have petitioned you for EACH and EVERY player you killed on the rez rings had I been there.

This goes to those that "helped" you as well.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

BoBoBo · 06-28-2006 03:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Well then, that's why you're Anglican and i'm Episcopal (sorry, really bad joke...moving on)...

The point I'm making is that untyped = bad. There are sets and builds that will be unnecissarily burdended by this change, to specifically handle a specific issue had with some. And gee, WHERE or where (other than...everywhere) have we seen this solution happen to something and just wreck things? The point isn't so much that idea itself is terrible, it's that it is too far in the right direction. Too much of a good thing is STILL too much, and therefore a bad thing. I'd agree...certain specific powers and power combos should be scaled back in regards to this...but scaled back does not mean "annihilated." {edit} much less "annihilated across the board"{/edit}

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you can think the 500,000 other people with angel type names for my name. It was about the last attempt to name my concept toon (an angel fighting evil on Earth) before giving up on it. Anglican was a mis-spelling of Angelican, but it worked so here I am.

Anyway, right now, you have SR scrappers, Ice tanks are the main ones affected. Then, there are some others with lessar dependance on defense.

The point is, should an AT have to both hit a very high defense, and ALSO have that power not work? Thats the way holds work right now. Not only can you not hit them, but you would have to hit 3 or 4 times for it to do anything, and even then, it would only work IF they didnt have a 50 influ inspiration. Further, they dont have to burn the BF until they are held. So, they dont even burn through their inspirations very fast, as the odds of hitting a high defense 3 straight times is pretty low (1 in 20, to the third power?).

It just seems to me to be like giving an SR scrapper ~50% resistance on top of his defense, or giving a tank 90% resistance AND 50% defense. Its double covered, and equals total immunity.

On the other hand, if this was changed then PVE mobs would.......well, still be unable to break the protection and still not hold the scrapper/tanks/brutes through their mez protection.

I dont like powers that dont work. Holds dont work for doms in PVP. This is one reason why. BFs are the other reason, and really need some type of change to allow a doms main power to actually do something. Its one reason I didnt liek toggle dropping, because I think a tanks toggles should work, but there has to be a way around them (unresistable damage from blasters, AS, etc).

[/ QUOTE ]

no, your just [censored] that your character is not the "i win" AT tanks are called tanks because they are ->HARD<- to put down
but not impossible. this game is not intended for 1v1 pvp, but it is also not intended for having mandatory AT's in your group during GvG. and this is all im saying on the topic

I believe in quality, not quantity. also i have a short attention span...

Guardian
Main: Goomba: 50-Tank Inv/stone...2892 hours
33-Brute
Pinnacle
Secondary Main: Captain Battleship: 22-Tank Inv/SS

SteelOnyx · 06-29-2006 05:53 AM

RV is boring without a bounty system

FrozinFury · 07-04-2006 11:25 PM

I got one for this, 2 Lvl 50 Fire/Ice tanks, that can tank a lvl 52 AV alone, but get taken by a Stalker and you think this is balance. Give tanks back their D*&m powers. Invis on STalkers is WAYYY overrated. while attacking can just disappear???? [censored]? and this heat exaustion taking ALL my endurance from me?? like I said you want to talk about balance within the game against NPCS???? look into your power sets and create a new balance.....you now have PVP to work on....

Paris_NA · 07-05-2006 05:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I got one for this, 2 Lvl 50 Fire/Ice tanks, that can tank a lvl 52 AV alone

[/ QUOTE ]
But 2 tanks are not supposed to be able to take an AV. Or 2 of anything for that matter.

The author of this post is speaking in generalities from his personal experience.
Your experience may vary.

geombear · 07-05-2006 05:32 PM

i dont remember my stalker ever getting heat exaustion...

and overrated means people say it's good but it really isnt, i think you meant to say overpowered.

and one stalker took on two lv 50 fire armor tanks? wow. he must be really good, or you were being really dumb

ZmanX · 07-06-2006 09:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Teleport Foe needs to be removed in this zone. A new griefing tactic is to TP someone into a mob of bosses and such so people die and get a massive amount of debt. So now the zone is almost empty except for the griefers that run off all the people that come into the zone to check it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

just know that: orange inspirations help you resist TP foe...
. . yellow inspiration helps you see invisible
. . enemies...

there are few greifing tactics that cannot be neutralized with some ingenuity. Last night i found a way into the hero hospital in RV (with help from Hell Crusher)
poor unsuspecting heroes where getting AS'd as they rezzed in their hospital... untill a real heroic toon started granting invisibility to all heroes just as they ressurected in the hospital

when that one got tired a new hero took his place which completely neutralized my exploit... even had to enlist some hero aid to get me out of the hospital (ty Jetstorm)

just want to say that sometimes its the little detais that people complain about that really can bring out the villanousness in villains and the heroic in a hero

[/ QUOTE ]

So... You admit your a POS griefer.
I want everyone to remember to include this thread link in their petitions the next time he does it. Not only is he an *bleep* but he's a STUPID *bleep*

Nemo_Utopia · 07-07-2006 05:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Teleport Foe needs to be removed in this zone. A new griefing tactic is to TP someone into a mob of bosses and such so people die and get a massive amount of debt. So now the zone is almost empty except for the griefers that run off all the people that come into the zone to check it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

just know that: orange inspirations help you resist TP foe...
. . yellow inspiration helps you see invisible
. . enemies...

there are few greifing tactics that cannot be neutralized with some ingenuity. Last night i found a way into the hero hospital in RV (with help from Hell Crusher)
poor unsuspecting heroes where getting AS'd as they rezzed in their hospital... untill a real heroic toon started granting invisibility to all heroes just as they ressurected in the hospital

when that one got tired a new hero took his place which completely neutralized my exploit... even had to enlist some hero aid to get me out of the hospital (ty Jetstorm)

just want to say that sometimes its the little detais that people complain about that really can bring out the villanousness in villains and the heroic in a hero

[/ QUOTE ]

So... You admit your a POS griefer.
I want everyone to remember to include this thread link in their petitions the next time he does it. Not only is he an *bleep* but he's a STUPID *bleep*

[/ QUOTE ]

See now, he could have even said it while telling the truth without revealing himself to be a @#%^!. All he had to do was say "I observed" instead of "I did" type statements, not name any names, mention it's still a problem, and he'd have been fine. Think like a politician man!!! Actually...on second thought...don't.

Sparrow_Hawk · 07-07-2006 04:19 PM

This discussion has strayed from a discussion of break frees, but I'd like to make a small suggestion:

Have break frees dramatically lower accuracy. Their primary function should be for escaping overwhelming situations, not for plowing through holds and beating the neutered Dom/Controller down. Make break frees the escape inspiration, not the the attack with impunity inspiration.

SparrowhawkHummingbirdDungeon MasterCapricornHour WomanQueen NefariaJunkyard GirlDoll FaceStitchbladeRed MinstrelMimic

Nemo_Utopia · 07-07-2006 06:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This discussion has strayed from a discussion of break frees, but I'd like to make a small suggestion:

Have break frees dramatically lower accuracy. Their primary function should be for escaping overwhelming situations, not for plowing through holds and beating the neutered Dom/Controller down. Make break frees the escape inspiration, not the the attack with impunity inspiration.

[/ QUOTE ]

/signedwithouthesitation

Is it overcomeable by Yellows? Sure. But at least it will help.

MrTogo · 07-07-2006 09:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This discussion has strayed from a discussion of break frees, but I'd like to make a small suggestion:

Have break frees dramatically lower accuracy. Their primary function should be for escaping overwhelming situations, not for plowing through holds and beating the neutered Dom/Controller down. Make break frees the escape inspiration, not the the attack with impunity inspiration.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like that idea. I never thought about putting a penalty with it, but it's something to think about.

Old_School · 07-08-2006 01:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This discussion has strayed from a discussion of break frees, but I'd like to make a small suggestion:

Have break frees dramatically lower accuracy. Their primary function should be for escaping overwhelming situations, not for plowing through holds and beating the neutered Dom/Controller down. Make break frees the escape inspiration, not the the attack with impunity inspiration.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like that idea. I never thought about putting a penalty with it, but it's something to think about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay this quite possibely be one of the worst ideas ive ever heard. Ill explain.

Situation: A blaster is about to duel a mind/Rad. Any kind of blaster doesnt matter. Without breakfrees the blaster is insta held, killed and dealed with in a easy manner. With the break free change you guys want to implement he pops the break free and gets a -acc penalty. So...he has -acc penatly from the breakfree and rad. He trys hitting through it without BU AIM...misses and is dealt with again just as easily as the first time.

Next time he pops a breakfree uses BU and Aim. Hits through everything because he had a them well slotted. Well..the mind/rad uses powerboost..heals ...ya know..hold dmg...rad LR all that good stuff to death.

Basically this change would be so tramatically bad because squishies need breakfrees to get from A to B. Your prolly saying to yourself...well doesnt that render my holds useless? no a good controller or dom will break a breakfree easily EASILY. Also if your always relying on your targets being insta held your a [censored] controller or dominator. Breakfrees are just a way to level the playing field for squishies...otherwise controllers and doms would isnta own every non squishy with incredible ease.

geombear · 07-08-2006 01:43 AM

blasters are all about burst dmg before someone can hold/kill them...i dont see a problem. pop some lucks instead of the breakfree, or pop the BF and a couple yellows (or buildup, OR aim, OR have tactics)

MrTogo · 07-08-2006 03:05 PM

So you're basically saying all controllers are /rad with a huge acc debuff and the primal mastery? Well, if that's the case, the blaster is obviously ice/nrg, and has holds and power boost himself. This means the controller has to keep a breakfree popped which also drops his accuracy.

So, you would have choices like, don't pop the breakfree til it looks like you might get killed while held (dominators don't get containment, so being held only stops you from attacking back) or wait for the timer to make it so you can't be held. If you dont' want to do that because you have alot of necessary toggles, then probably one of those toggles gives you a tohit buff, and that evens it out again.

It sounds like you basically completely shut the door on at least a decent idea without giving it a first good thought. You chose a lopsided fight and used that as an example. Not just controllers rely on holds to kill stuff or help. Any AT has some sets that either have holds or stuns, and through the EAT or patrons, I believe just about everyone has access that would require someone to use a breakfree to get out of.