Official Thread for Recluses Victory: PvP Zone
By
Adam7,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 24:15 in Developers' Corner
Break Frees certainly need to be addressed in this issue, considering supergroups can now store inspirations for use by any and all members. As if 50 infamy tier 1 BFs weren't bad enough, a tier 3 BF lasts 90 seconds and provides truly stupid levels of mez protection. It doesn't take a large SG very long to farm them, nor very long for a dedicated PvP SG to abuse it.
(Other tier 3 inspirations have similar problems in PvP, but they don't come close to negating two AT's whole primary sets for minutes at a time.)
ooh i really like that idea of control attacks not being "typed" for defense to defend better against them
they'd still be "ranged" attacks though, so the positional defense would still work, but you'd still hit more often against the regular types of defense
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TP foe - increase animation so caster cant do anything when foe appears.
[/ QUOTE ]Only if that applied to PvP. Otherwise it would destroy it for the "pulling" power it is in the PvE game, especially in solo play. 
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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ooh i really like that idea of control attacks not being "typed" for defense to defend better against them
they'd still be "ranged" attacks though, so the positional defense would still work, but you'd still hit more often against the regular types of defense
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And on the NEXT episode of "Good idea, Bad idea"...I agree, BFs need to be handled more appropriately (the top tier really shouldn't allow someone to say "wow, those 3 Cons/Doms can't hold me for 90 seconds!"), but this is a prime example of a BAD idea. Untyped other than ranged means that any given powerset has perhaps MAYBE one power to defend against it at ALL. (Exception: Super Senses, I believe) Psi is an example of a not-very-well-defended against type, but untyped throws defense (AND RESISTS!) out the window. Let's look for a somewhat more reasonable solution.
Some stuff I learned from Archon_Voss:
The number of boss NPCs in Recluse's Victory will be lowered from its current level to about one third of the total NPCs, to make the 'defeat 100 enemies to reset zone' task easier for the losing side. (This will also mean that Insp drops are easier to get in RV, since you won't have to wade through bosses to get them.)
There may also be a set Prestige/Infamy award added to this task for the losing side, to give them a bit more incentive to turn the clock around quicker.
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Some stuff I learned from Archon_Voss:
The number of boss NPCs in Recluse's Victory will be lowered from its current level to about one third of the total NPCs, to make the 'defeat 100 enemies to reset zone' task easier for the losing side. (This will also mean that Insp drops are easier to get in RV, since you won't have to wade through bosses to get them.)
There may also be a set Prestige/Infamy award added to this task for the losing side, to give them a bit more incentive to turn the clock around quicker.
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Guess I should have listened to the into speech, didnt know thats what reverts the zone. I can say, there are a boatload of bosses in the zone on RV. At one point during the event, you could ignore the players because they were much less of a threat then the wardens and heros.
you can always get buffed to get more mez protection or ranged defense from a shield...
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you can always get buffed to get more mez protection or ranged defense from a shield...
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-_-...
Yes, but then, to prevent mez, you NEED to have a mez protection power buddy, or a Force Fields friend to buff you with whichever-Bubble. I'm all for teaming up and taking down foes, but requiring people to team AND get insps to protect from Mez is another layer of aggravation most people don't need in PvP...and, as anyone will tell you, NEEDING a specific power/set-of-two-or-three-powers/AT to keep Controllers (or Doms, or Ice Blasters, or...) from mezzing eveyone instantly no questions asked is a MAJOR no-no. Then, of course, there's the PvE imbalance: you thought mezzing enemies were bad BEFORE...well, yeah. I'm just pointing out that the road to Hades is paved with good intentions. Some solutions cause more problems, and that would DEFINITELY be one the devs would regret. An excuse for a "fix" is STILL an excuse.
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you can always get buffed to get more mez protection or ranged defense from a shield...
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-_-...
Yes, but then, to prevent mez, you NEED to have a mez protection power buddy, or a Force Fields friend to buff you with whichever-Bubble. I'm all for teaming up and taking down foes, but requiring people to team AND get insps to protect from Mez is another layer of aggravation most people don't need in PvP...and, as anyone will tell you, NEEDING a specific power/set-of-two-or-three-powers/AT to keep Controllers (or Doms, or Ice Blasters, or...) from mezzing eveyone instantly no questions asked is a MAJOR no-no. Then, of course, there's the PvE imbalance: you thought mezzing enemies were bad BEFORE...well, yeah. I'm just pointing out that the road to Hades is paved with good intentions. Some solutions cause more problems, and that would DEFINITELY be one the devs would regret. An excuse for a "fix" is STILL an excuse.
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This would only affect stalkers, brutes, scrappers and tanks. As an invul tank, I have had PVE mobs taken down unyielding once ever (from level 12 to 50). It wasnt due to defense, it was having a mag 12 or so to holds. Same for scrappers, they have mag resistance already. Further, everyone has the instant "no holds" pill for a mere 50 infamy/influence.
Basically, these type ATs are double dipping. They cant be mezzed because they cant be hit, plus they have mez protection. It should be one or the other, not both. If I have to hit you 4 times for it to work, is it fair for me to also only hit you with that attack 1 out of 20 attempts (5%)? This makes it not just really tough to break, it is now impossible.
If that is the desired result, why not just make the AT immune and be done. I think this is something the devs have just not considered.
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you can always get buffed to get more mez protection or ranged defense from a shield...
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-_-...
Yes, but then, to prevent mez, you NEED to have a mez protection power buddy, or a Force Fields friend to buff you with whichever-Bubble. I'm all for teaming up and taking down foes, but requiring people to team AND get insps to protect from Mez is another layer of aggravation most people don't need in PvP...and, as anyone will tell you, NEEDING a specific power/set-of-two-or-three-powers/AT to keep Controllers (or Doms, or Ice Blasters, or...) from mezzing eveyone instantly no questions asked is a MAJOR no-no. Then, of course, there's the PvE imbalance: you thought mezzing enemies were bad BEFORE...well, yeah. I'm just pointing out that the road to Hades is paved with good intentions. Some solutions cause more problems, and that would DEFINITELY be one the devs would regret. An excuse for a "fix" is STILL an excuse.
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This would only affect stalkers, brutes, scrappers and tanks. As an invul tank, I have had PVE mobs taken down unyielding once ever (from level 12 to 50). It wasnt due to defense, it was having a mag 12 or so to holds. Same for scrappers, they have mag resistance already. Further, everyone has the instant "no holds" pill for a mere 50 infamy/influence.
Basically, these type ATs are double dipping. They cant be mezzed because they cant be hit, plus they have mez protection. It should be one or the other, not both. If I have to hit you 4 times for it to work, is it fair for me to also only hit you with that attack 1 out of 20 attempts (5%)? This makes it not just really tough to break, it is now impossible.
If that is the desired result, why not just make the AT immune and be done. I think this is something the devs have just not considered.
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Well then, that's why you're Anglican and i'm Episcopal (sorry, really bad joke...moving on)...
The point I'm making is that untyped = bad. There are sets and builds that will be unnecissarily burdended by this change, to specifically handle a specific issue had with some. And gee, WHERE or where (other than...everywhere) have we seen this solution happen to something and just wreck things? The point isn't so much that idea itself is terrible, it's that it is too far in the right direction. Too much of a good thing is STILL too much, and therefore a bad thing. I'd agree...certain specific powers and power combos should be scaled back in regards to this...but scaled back does not mean "annihilated." {edit} much less "annihilated across the board"{/edit}
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Well then, that's why you're Anglican and i'm Episcopal (sorry, really bad joke...moving on)...
The point I'm making is that untyped = bad. There are sets and builds that will be unnecissarily burdended by this change, to specifically handle a specific issue had with some. And gee, WHERE or where (other than...everywhere) have we seen this solution happen to something and just wreck things? The point isn't so much that idea itself is terrible, it's that it is too far in the right direction. Too much of a good thing is STILL too much, and therefore a bad thing. I'd agree...certain specific powers and power combos should be scaled back in regards to this...but scaled back does not mean "annihilated." {edit} much less "annihilated across the board"{/edit}
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Well, you can think the 500,000 other people with angel type names for my name. It was about the last attempt to name my concept toon (an angel fighting evil on Earth) before giving up on it. Anglican was a mis-spelling of Angelican, but it worked so here I am.
Anyway, right now, you have SR scrappers, Ice tanks are the main ones affected. Then, there are some others with lessar dependance on defense.
The point is, should an AT have to both hit a very high defense, and ALSO have that power not work? Thats the way holds work right now. Not only can you not hit them, but you would have to hit 3 or 4 times for it to do anything, and even then, it would only work IF they didnt have a 50 influ inspiration. Further, they dont have to burn the BF until they are held. So, they dont even burn through their inspirations very fast, as the odds of hitting a high defense 3 straight times is pretty low (1 in 20, to the third power?).
It just seems to me to be like giving an SR scrapper ~50% resistance on top of his defense, or giving a tank 90% resistance AND 50% defense. Its double covered, and equals total immunity.
On the other hand, if this was changed then PVE mobs would.......well, still be unable to break the protection and still not hold the scrapper/tanks/brutes through their mez protection.
I dont like powers that dont work. Holds dont work for doms in PVP. This is one reason why. BFs are the other reason, and really need some type of change to allow a doms main power to actually do something. Its one reason I didnt liek toggle dropping, because I think a tanks toggles should work, but there has to be a way around them (unresistable damage from blasters, AS, etc).
I think stack holds need to create reduced effectiveness for toggles eventually leading to the knocking off of the toggles.
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I think stack holds need to create reduced effectiveness for toggles eventually leading to the knocking off of the toggles.
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I think stacked holds are better than fine right now. They really need to be toned down. The only ones that have a slight resistance to it are scrappers, tanks, and brutes. On anything other than those 3, status effects rip apart any means of escaping or defense.
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you can always get buffed to get more mez protection or ranged defense from a shield...
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-_-...
Yes, but then, to prevent mez, you NEED to have a mez protection power buddy, or a Force Fields friend to buff you with whichever-Bubble. I'm all for teaming up and taking down foes, but requiring people to team AND get insps to protect from Mez is another layer of aggravation most people don't need in PvP...and, as anyone will tell you, NEEDING a specific power/set-of-two-or-three-powers/AT to keep Controllers (or Doms, or Ice Blasters, or...) from mezzing eveyone instantly no questions asked is a MAJOR no-no. Then, of course, there's the PvE imbalance: you thought mezzing enemies were bad BEFORE...well, yeah. I'm just pointing out that the road to Hades is paved with good intentions. Some solutions cause more problems, and that would DEFINITELY be one the devs would regret. An excuse for a "fix" is STILL an excuse.
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OH NO the doms might actually get to use their primary powerset? egads we can't let that happen!
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you can always get buffed to get more mez protection or ranged defense from a shield...
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-_-...
Yes, but then, to prevent mez, you NEED to have a mez protection power buddy, or a Force Fields friend to buff you with whichever-Bubble. I'm all for teaming up and taking down foes, but requiring people to team AND get insps to protect from Mez is another layer of aggravation most people don't need in PvP...and, as anyone will tell you, NEEDING a specific power/set-of-two-or-three-powers/AT to keep Controllers (or Doms, or Ice Blasters, or...) from mezzing eveyone instantly no questions asked is a MAJOR no-no. Then, of course, there's the PvE imbalance: you thought mezzing enemies were bad BEFORE...well, yeah. I'm just pointing out that the road to Hades is paved with good intentions. Some solutions cause more problems, and that would DEFINITELY be one the devs would regret. An excuse for a "fix" is STILL an excuse.
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OH NO the doms might actually get to use their primary powerset? egads we can't let that happen!
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-_-....why do I bother? My point is, fixing this for Doms, breaks this for Controllers (and Ice Blasters, and...). It's like buffing ALL the AVs when only a few needed it, like the original boss change (again, all got the same buff, but only certain ones TRULY needed it), it's like the over-done rollback of TD (yes, TD needed rollback...but not this far), it's like the stealth vs perception arms race, it's like....do I even need to continue? The more people tell the Devs we'd rather have things become viable by breaking everything else related to them, the more we yo-yo, the more we get frustrated on both sides, and the more people like you all will cry nerf. If you can't understand that, then really, don't post on the boards at all, you're only hurting the playerbase and yourself. And, yes, this post is meant to be read as me being very snippy, because so far I only see a few people who want THEIR game improvement, regardless of what it actually means. And, if you paid attention, you might realize that I've agreed with your reasoning, but NOT your solution.
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Well then, that's why you're Anglican and i'm Episcopal (sorry, really bad joke...moving on)...
The point I'm making is that untyped = bad. There are sets and builds that will be unnecissarily burdended by this change, to specifically handle a specific issue had with some. And gee, WHERE or where (other than...everywhere) have we seen this solution happen to something and just wreck things? The point isn't so much that idea itself is terrible, it's that it is too far in the right direction. Too much of a good thing is STILL too much, and therefore a bad thing. I'd agree...certain specific powers and power combos should be scaled back in regards to this...but scaled back does not mean "annihilated." {edit} much less "annihilated across the board"{/edit}
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Well, you can think the 500,000 other people with angel type names for my name. It was about the last attempt to name my concept toon (an angel fighting evil on Earth) before giving up on it. Anglican was a mis-spelling of Angelican, but it worked so here I am.
Anyway, right now, you have SR scrappers, Ice tanks are the main ones affected. Then, there are some others with lessar dependance on defense.
The point is, should an AT have to both hit a very high defense, and ALSO have that power not work? Thats the way holds work right now. Not only can you not hit them, but you would have to hit 3 or 4 times for it to do anything, and even then, it would only work IF they didnt have a 50 influ inspiration. Further, they dont have to burn the BF until they are held. So, they dont even burn through their inspirations very fast, as the odds of hitting a high defense 3 straight times is pretty low (1 in 20, to the third power?).
It just seems to me to be like giving an SR scrapper ~50% resistance on top of his defense, or giving a tank 90% resistance AND 50% defense. Its double covered, and equals total immunity.
On the other hand, if this was changed then PVE mobs would.......well, still be unable to break the protection and still not hold the scrapper/tanks/brutes through their mez protection.
I dont like powers that dont work. Holds dont work for doms in PVP. This is one reason why. BFs are the other reason, and really need some type of change to allow a doms main power to actually do something. Its one reason I didnt liek toggle dropping, because I think a tanks toggles should work, but there has to be a way around them (unresistable damage from blasters, AS, etc).
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Which..is...my...point. There SHOULD be a way around them. But there should be a BALANCED way around them, not one that specifically handles SR while making any other, non-SR player unable to defend at all. Cry "tweak", don't cry "nerf-the-world-because-I-don't-like-them-especially-this-one-guy."
how does letting some control work for doms make things worse for controllers? i stopped reading your post after that because the rest probably didnt make sense either
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Which..is...my...point. There SHOULD be a way around them. But there should be a BALANCED way around them, not one that specifically handles SR while making any other, non-SR player unable to defend at all. Cry "tweak", don't cry "nerf-the-world-because-I-don't-like-them-especially-this-one-guy."
[/ QUOTE ]The fault lays not with the AT's, but with the powers themselves...
As long as (most) mezzes are a binary proposition (held/not held) the AT's that have them will suffer with either near-godlike power when it works or massive ineffectiveness when it doesn't, and the AT's that have the ability to resist them must have a high chance to do so, or they're dead.
SR is only doing its job when it evades an attack. It doesn't matter what that attack is. However, removing mez resistance from them when they do get hit is yet another death sentence... why? Because when it hits, all toggles drop. Those toggles drop and they're dead. Period.
The ability to mez is a powerful thing because it renders whoever is hit by it (in almost every PvP situation, and many PvE situation) dead unless they have a team that can readily help them- after that the only other details are a matter of damage and time.
The best soloution I keep coming back to time and again, is a little "give and take" with how mez's work currently.
1) Reduce the ammount of magnitude (or whatever) that overcomes armors against mez. However, as a trade, most mezzes won't drop toggles. Power activation is an act of will, and as long as you're conscious, you can will your powers to work. This will not only help the AT's with no protection, but some toggles, it might allow the melee AT's that do have such protection the breathing room needed so they can be mezzed without it being an automatic death sentence.
2) A useful side effect if they get hit but not mezzed. Give all mezzes a slottable attribute that kicks in. Pick something appropriate to the power... -acc, -spd, -def, -resist, etc... If that steps on the Defender's toes too much, then make it a blanket - spd on immob's, and a -spd -recharge on all full holds. This means that they're still functional, but they did get hit and it slowed them down a bit. If this is done with all mez type powers then suggestion 1 may not even be nescesary.
3)Make at least one "target area" AoE immob and/or hold in every set, as opposed to a "target" AoE. If that doesn't fit the flavor of a particular set, make one an "anchor" AoE toggle power. That will allow multiple chances to mez, slow or whatever, foes as long as they're in its area, and it is active. Take Snowstorm for example. Its an "anchor" AoE toggled slow. Powers like that are almost more useful than mezzes in PvP because they work reliably. Controllers and Dominators should have something in their Primary that can be as reliable, without completely decimating the competition. Though in my opinion, a speed and/or recharge debuff is like a hold/immob that just didn't take fully... so I'm biased.
Control-type powers ultimately get the short end of the stick because when they work, they really work. The above may be a few steps toward making them a little less binary.
Hope this helps 
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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The problems I see in PVP:
problem - solution
TP foe - increase animation so caster cant do anything when foe appears.
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Pointless. My Robo/FF MM? he isn't going to attack you - his PETS (and, should he be so lucky, his Heavy) will.
For a non-MM? The team-mates will do the job. And maybe the Trip Mines, Caltrops, etc.
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Jousting still works - jousting (ie superspeed by with an attack que'd up) still works and sucks. Nuke suppression and add back heavy acc penalties.
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I agree. The -acc was a better way to handle it than suppression.
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-_-....why do I bother? My point is, fixing this for Doms, breaks this for Controllers (and Ice Blasters, and...).
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I guess my question, is how does this break it for controllers? Ok, their mez hits defense based toons with mez protection. You still have BFs, you still have high mag ratings, you still have suppression, etc. As for blasters (and epic powers, as they have mez powers in all ATs, while we get ZERO mez protection), their duration is so low and lower mag to a point it would take more than one blaster to break mez protection, I believe (never fought a ice blaster without toggle drop on my tank, so not certain). Again, I fail to see the broken part of this at all.
Further, all the other ATs were given complete and total protection from Mezes by the introduction of BFs the way they are now. Controllers were compensated by being given 3 tmies their normal damage when mez works. Doms were given, oh, wait, Jack (and I dont mean Frost either).
In other words, I hear your concern, but theres no detail in HOW ITS BROKE!! Versus all but psi, you have DOUBLE PROTECTION from mezzes. In other words, its harder to break a defense build mez protection on a scrapper than to break a resistance build mez protection on a tank. This is because you have to hit first, then the mag of the hold is increased. Balanced? Nope.
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As long as (most) mezzes are a binary proposition (held/not held) the AT's that have them will suffer with either near-godlike power when it works or massive ineffectiveness when it doesn't, and the AT's that have the ability to resist them must have a high chance to do so, or they're dead.
SR is only doing its job when it evades an attack. It doesn't matter what that attack is. However, removing mez resistance from them when they do get hit is yet another death sentence... why? Because when it hits, all toggles drop. Those toggles drop and they're dead. Period.
The ability to mez is a powerful thing because it renders whoever is hit by it (in almost every PvP situation, and many PvE situation) dead unless they have a team that can readily help them- after that the only other details are a matter of damage and time.
The best soloution I keep coming back to time and again, is a little "give and take" with how mez's work currently.
1) Reduce the ammount of magnitude (or whatever) that overcomes armors against mez. However, as a trade, most mezzes won't drop toggles. Power activation is an act of will, and as long as you're conscious, you can will your powers to work. This will not only help the AT's with no protection, but some toggles, it might allow the melee AT's that do have such protection the breathing room needed so they can be mezzed without it being an automatic death sentence.
2) A useful side effect if they get hit but not mezzed. Give all mezzes a slottable attribute that kicks in. Pick something appropriate to the power... -acc, -spd, -def, -resist, etc... If that steps on the Defender's toes too much, then make it a blanket - spd on immob's, and a -spd -recharge on all full holds. This means that they're still functional, but they did get hit and it slowed them down a bit. If this is done with all mez type powers then suggestion 1 may not even be nescesary.
3)Make at least one "target area" AoE immob and/or hold in every set, as opposed to a "target" AoE. If that doesn't fit the flavor of a particular set, make one an "anchor" AoE toggle power. That will allow multiple chances to mez, slow or whatever, foes as long as they're in its area, and it is active. Take Snowstorm for example. Its an "anchor" AoE toggled slow. Powers like that are almost more useful than mezzes in PvP because they work reliably. Controllers and Dominators should have something in their Primary that can be as reliable, without completely decimating the competition. Though in my opinion, a speed and/or recharge debuff is like a hold/immob that just didn't take fully... so I'm biased.
Control-type powers ultimately get the short end of the stick because when they work, they really work. The above may be a few steps toward making them a little less binary.
Hope this helps
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I agree with most of this. I feel that tanks and scrappers (tough, melee types) should be affected by mezzes. But, when mezzed, should have real good odds of surviving it. So, it should come down to which PLAYER (not AT) is better when they have the upper hand (ie. can the tank kill the dom/troller when suppression is on, versus can the dom/troller stay alive until the hold strikes after suppression ends). I know this would cause some PVE problems, but really I think tanks should get mezzed but live, while squishies should have ways of avoiding mez (cause they die when mezzed). This would mean (for example) an invul tanks passives would give them the majority of their damage resistance, and a toggle drop would not do that much to them, other than no attacking and no movement.
BTW- my thought was NOT to remove mez protection, rather have ST holds not be classified as a type of damage or postion for defense. The mag protection is what is supposed to protect that AT from mezzes, not their defense, but right now they are double protected.
This is similar to the idea that holds dont drop toggles as listed in your post, only using existing powers to do that. I also think more, larger effects of holds that dont break the mag of a target would help a lot. If they are going to nuke holds, at least let it do something good (idea #2 of your post). And lets be real, BFs as they are nuke holds.
Another idea, is to remove the mag protection, and use resistance. Resistance reduces the duration of the hold. A tank with reduced hold times and his high health plus suppression will not likely lose to a dom, unless the dom is a better player (which is proper).
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I think stack holds need to create reduced effectiveness for toggles eventually leading to the knocking off of the toggles.
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I think stacked holds are better than fine right now. They really need to be toned down. The only ones that have a slight resistance to it are scrappers, tanks, and brutes. On anything other than those 3, status effects rip apart any means of escaping or defense.
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Which is why they gave you BFs, which is why Doms truly suck in PVP. Give me a inspiration with 100% boost to resistance which I can buy for piddle, and see how a blaster adds up. BFs have nuked holds. The only ones effectively using status effects now are blasters, EM based toons, that only need two hits to win, and they use the stun to keep you there till they can trigger the second attack. That is faster than you can hit a BF, so it works (only needs a 2 second duration or less to work).
Holds dont work now in PVP at all. They are either auto win or buttons that can be removed from the power tray for all the effect they have. Both sides of that are wrong. At least in COH, most ATs can get mez protection. Doms dont have mez protection, and their primary dont work.
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how does letting some control work for doms make things worse for controllers? i stopped reading your post after that because the rest probably didnt make sense either
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I'll put a consolidated answer here, and this is @Anglican and others, too:
First, we'll establish what is known:
1) Doms are not that great at PvP.
2) Ice Blasters and Controllers ARE (however, it is known they are not "walking gods" like BS/Regen and other power builds, and do not always do well against said build).
3) This is due to Mez (Hold, stun, whadevuh) + damage follow up to the mezzed target.
4) This works because a Mag protected target can still have that mag outdone, and even a split second of this drops ALL toggles.
5) Dropping all a toon's toggles drops the majority / all of that toon's resistances.
Now, let's look at what this does with the way things currently work:
People can still pop the old BF and other stuff...but they darn well do it BEFORE they are actually held (and you would be amazed at the number of people who don't, can't, or otherwise don't realize). SR, specifically is the set causing trouble, since it's doing what it's supposed to: protecting the user from one person mezzing through its defenses and protections...and giving ample time to pop a BF if said hero/villain believes they are in danger of having that protection overcome. Most control sets (Controller/Dom) have two holds: target and AoE. The combined application is Mag 6, and is easily reapplied within their own duration = Mag 12. If this becomes an untyped attack, then people who can do this (as well as the non-usual AT who can pull it off) will NOT have to contend with Defense....barring certain, specific situations. Not ALL sets have Mez protection, and also have varying levels. Also, not all sets have defense...and then to varying degrees. So to handle SR, we'll do an across the board buff/nerf which allows holds to be applied enough for Doms to succeed....and make at least Controllers and certain other builds that much more powerful as well, able to hold a target: period, barring perfect BFs and timing of their use. This is in addition to making Doms literal gods among PvP...we already know how much people don't like gods in PvP, but want balanced fights. Especially since that's what you CLAIM to want, anyway. So: we can go with what is OBVIOUSLY a bad idea, or we can work with something else.
Just a few examples, off the top of my head, that while certainly not perfect, are definitely better and more able to be worked/tweaked:
1) Buff Dom (specifically, Dom, since this prevents it from affecting other, balanced [or already unbalanced] ATs/powercombos) accuracy or tohit specifically against players as their Domination Bar builds, reaching a cap when it is full/active.
2) Introduce a mechanic that makes it so that a toon that is under a hold, sleep, or stun (Disorient) lose a certain effectiveness to their other powers, scaling so that it is proportional somehow to remaining protection (slippery slope effect...still overcomeable by enough protection [read: BFs] but a definite danger).
3) Give Dom holds (and other mez, but specifically Dom) a "lingering aura"...the effect wears off normally, but undercuts mez protection by a very small amount for an additional duration after it has actually worn off (so for 0-100, the hold is full effect, and then for 101-200, the effect undercuts mez protection by 1 Mag (or even only a 1/2 Mag level)). Enough lingering aura wouldn't do anything by itself...but would allow the application of an actual mez of the same type to do its thing.
That's just three, and took all of 5 seconds to think up. Oh, and:
4) Increase Dominator TD chances across the board. Other classes are fairly balanced without high TD chances: Doms obviously are not. An increased TD for Doms (not massive, but a step-up process every so often until the "right nubmer" is found) would allow this and give them a niche function that suits their playstyle, is thematic to them, and is synergetic with what they do.
My argument is NOT to keep Holds or Dominators useless, or make mezzes trivial: it is that you need to do so with a balanced thing, not by a board sweep effect or in some way that tips the scales the other way and just causes nerfs, bad blood, and a whole ocean-full of problems all its own. Now is this really so hard to understand, or do you REALLY need to touch our collective hands to the red-hot fire and get burned first?
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I'll put a consolidated answer here, and this is @Anglican and others, too:
First, we'll establish what is known:
1) Doms are not that great at PvP.
2) Ice Blasters and Controllers ARE (however, it is known they are not "walking gods" like BS/Regen and other power builds, and do not always do well against said build).
3) This is due to Mez (Hold, stun, whadevuh) + damage follow up to the mezzed target.
4) This works because a Mag protected target can still have that mag outdone, and even a split second of this drops ALL toggles.
5) Dropping all a toon's toggles drops the majority / all of that toon's resistances.
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Please recognize that #3 is true also for nrg melee using stuns. In fact, nrg blasters and EM tanks are much better at it than ice blasters or controllers. Controllers often are nothing more than a base for their defender powers, as they have the same BF issues to apply to them as doms, only they have things like hurricane to fall back on. In fact, this disadvantage is ALREADY overcome via the blasters using aim + build up, and tanks using FA, tactics and build up.
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Now, let's look at what this does with the way things currently work:
People can still pop the old BF and other stuff...but they darn well do it BEFORE they are actually held (and you would be amazed at the number of people who don't, can't, or otherwise don't realize). SR, specifically is the set causing trouble, since it's doing what it's supposed to: protecting the user from one person mezzing through its defenses and protections...and giving ample time to pop a BF if said hero/villain believes they are in danger of having that protection overcome. Most control sets (Controller/Dom) have two holds: target and AoE. The combined application is Mag 6, and is easily reapplied within their own duration = Mag 12.
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AOE holds take forever to recharge, and are one use/fight at best. This means you easily hit mag 6 by using two powers, then 9 when the single target hold recharges, and then yet another recharge to hit 12. Further, these must stack, meaning a single miss equates to no hold at all.
To compare, how many attacks does it take to kill a dom? Im thinking it rarely takes more than 4 to kill a dom, and 2 isnt uncommon. So, a dom has to hit 3-4 times in a row, in order to try to be able to attack without dying. He then must hit maybe 8-10 attacks to win. Meanwhile, if the opponent has hit 3-4 times, the match is already over.
As for SR doing what its supposed to do, whats the mez protection power supposed to be doing? With NO DEFENSE AT ALL, they can wait for the single target hold to be thrown twice and THEN use a BF and STILL be IMMUNE. Only now, I dont know that a SR scrapper even needs to carry BFs, while all other ATs do (even doms and trollers, because of the massive number of holds, stuns, fears that melee toons can cast).
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If this becomes an untyped attack, then people who can do this (as well as the non-usual AT who can pull it off) will NOT have to contend with Defense....barring certain, specific situations. Not ALL sets have Mez protection, and also have varying levels. Also, not all sets have defense...and then to varying degrees. So to handle SR, we'll do an across the board buff/nerf which allows holds to be applied enough for Doms to succeed....and make at least Controllers and certain other builds that much more powerful as well, able to hold a target: period, barring perfect BFs and timing of their use. This is in addition to making Doms literal gods among PvP...we already know how much people don't like gods in PvP, but want balanced fights. Especially since that's what you CLAIM to want, anyway. So: we can go with what is OBVIOUSLY a bad idea, or we can work with something else.
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So, removing a blaster's 3% defense from weave makes a dom a GOD? Wow, I never knew we were so close.
Who currently has decent defense? Only a few ATs, SR being the main one, but also some tanks. Why should they have virtually immunity to holds, while resistance based melee toons have to worry about it (assuming waiting for a power to recharge and be thrown 3-4 times which needs a single inspiration to completely overcome and which can be taken AFTER the hold works is something to worry about).
Clearly, this makes no sense at all and is hyperbole.
Blasters, controllers, defenders are all vulnerbale to holds on the first cast, unless they have a special epic power (IW for example). Acrobatics does not protect from a dom or controllers holds. As insights dont make doms GODS now, I dont see reducing the benefit from defense to holds as making everyone quake in fear from a controller or a dom.
What it WILL do is give a dom or controller a fighting chance to overcome mag resistance of a defense based melee toon if they can survive for 10-15 seconds of combat (not likely, but at least possible).
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Just a few examples, off the top of my head, that while certainly not perfect, are definitely better and more able to be worked/tweaked:
1) Buff Dom (specifically, Dom, since this prevents it from affecting other, balanced [or already unbalanced] ATs/powercombos) accuracy or tohit specifically against players as their Domination Bar builds, reaching a cap when it is full/active.
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So, instead of bypassing an SR defense (but they have increased mag), instead ALL doms get a massive accuracy bonus? This is more balanced? Im just talking about removing an unneccesary unreasonable advantage that defense based melee toons have to be immune to holds. You are adding in a large accuracy bonus that would have to put Dom accuracy around 80% to other ATs in PVP such that doms can hit SR scrappers 50% of the time. This seems much less balanced to me.
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2) Introduce a mechanic that makes it so that a toon that is under a hold, sleep, or stun (Disorient) lose a certain effectiveness to their other powers, scaling so that it is proportional somehow to remaining protection (slippery slope effect...still overcomeable by enough protection [read: BFs] but a definite danger).
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I would love to have holds do something like this, but it still doesnt change how an SR scrapper will be missed and unaffected while a fire tank will be hit and affected. The tank has higher mag protection, but is actually weaker to a hold due to being able to be hit. The same is true for a regen scrapper. Why should a regen resist holds worse than a SR scrapper? Again, the basic item here is that a regen scrapper has a certain mag resistance that must be overcome to be affected. An SR scrapper has the same mag level, but also cant be hit, making him virtually immune to mez while the regen is merely extremely hard to affect.
Once again, this effect does much more to potentially unbalance ATs than my idea. This weakens every type of mez protection in the game, while my idea simply made all scrappers equal, and all scrappers weaker than all tanks.
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3) Give Dom holds (and other mez, but specifically Dom) a "lingering aura"...the effect wears off normally, but undercuts mez protection by a very small amount for an additional duration after it has actually worn off (so for 0-100, the hold is full effect, and then for 101-200, the effect undercuts mez protection by 1 Mag (or even only a 1/2 Mag level)). Enough lingering aura wouldn't do anything by itself...but would allow the application of an actual mez of the same type to do its thing.
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Ok, so you are extending the base duration for a hold to overcome resistance and allow the hold. Again, this is much more powerful than what I suggested. Im thinking you didnt understand what I was suggesting at all.
My understanding is that all scrappers have a toggle that raises the magnitude required for them to be held to a set level (say, from 3 for normal heros to 9). In addition, a defense based melee type gets their defense, such that the holds cant hit, as well as having basically zero effect until three or more have stacked. This means the odds of a defense based toon being held is much, much, much lower than a comparable scrapper (say, SR versus regen).
To review the effect on non-melee type toons, how much defense can most toons get? 3 % for stealth (when fighting suppressed to 50%?). Weave is around 3% for non-melee toons. Defenders and such tend to get ~3% from buff powers (manuvers, shadowfall, etc). Its unlikely a non-melee toon has as much as 10% defense. With a base 50% to hit in PVP, with 2 acc inspirations and assuming no inspiration use, thats about a 16% difference. Frankly, that hardly makes one "a literal god" or requires PERFECT BF usage. In fact, you could wait until held, then open your inspiration tray, look around, take a bite of a sandwich, and then trigger the BF and easily escape from most doms in PVP. Our burst damage is nowhere near killing even a squishy in three or four hits, though fire may do it with the imps included and if running HF and FE.
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That's just three, and took all of 5 seconds to think up. Oh, and:
4) Increase Dominator TD chances across the board. Other classes are fairly balanced without high TD chances: Doms obviously are not. An increased TD for Doms (not massive, but a step-up process every so often until the "right nubmer" is found) would allow this and give them a niche function that suits their playstyle, is thematic to them, and is synergetic with what they do.
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This is what the devs are doing. Frankly, I dislike toggle dropping. I dont mind having to overcome a resistance, as long as I have a means to do so (ie, melee without ranged attacks being the only ones with mez protection, etc). I dont want to drop someones power with some bogus mechanism. I just want a decent chance to have my method of winning (ie. hit them many times with a ST hold and hold them) actually work. As it is, with a defense based toon, doms dont have any possible way to do it. I have had people sit there and laugh at me spamming holds on them, and without them using BFs. Is it right? Balanced? Its not balanced for team play, solo play, interAT or intra-AT.
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My argument is NOT to keep Holds or Dominators useless, or make mezzes trivial: it is that you need to do so with a balanced thing, not by a board sweep effect or in some way that tips the scales the other way and just causes nerfs, bad blood, and a whole ocean-full of problems all its own. Now is this really so hard to understand, or do you REALLY need to touch our collective hands to the red-hot fire and get burned first?
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Really, I dont think this would cause cats and dogs to start living together, although you clearly think otherwise. If this would be as huge a change as you suggest, all I would need to do as a dom to be a "literal god" of PVP is use insight inspirations. Maybe you should lay off the coffee.
Are there other possible fixes? Sure. One of the best ones is to make holds with too low a mag to effect someone have a strong -recharge, slow effect, or a large acc penalty. Or, keeping with toggle dropping (though I dislike it), give holds a high chance of dropping a toggle. That would almost work like a "critical" hold in that it might drop the toggle that gives mez protection.
However, all these require to hits to work. So in each of these, for some reason a defense based toon is >>>> resistance based toon. I dont think this makes sense, or is intended by the devs.
Ok, I've finally gone to RV.
My conclusions are : if you're not teamed, you're not likely to have any fun. What good is my hero when I can't see what is attacking me? I'm not trying to take anything away from the stalkers. The guy that got me, whoever he was, didn't talk smack, he just defended a pill box. He did his job.
however, common sense should have told me that there was a reason it was under villain control. Sadly, I wasn't even thinking about PvP. not sure why, I knew it was a PvP zone. I guess I figured folks would actually be testing, not playing. Anyways, I found no missions to do there, no contacts, so what's the point of this zone? PvP? Aren't there already three PvP zones that go underused 20 hours out of 24?
PvE is the cash flow engine that drives this train, I suggest you make things interesting for those customers as well.
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase