Official Thread for Brutes: Electric Melee
By
13th_Stranger,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 11:58 in Developers' Corner
Wow, you obviously look at the negative side of everything. I was coming from the Zen approach to natural action vs over complicated thinking. You seem to apply a dark shadow to every little thing and then redirect what then appears negative upon your own filtered reality. Nothing in your filtered view of this world can cut through this simple declaration...I LOVE YOU.
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Wow, you obviously look at the negative side of everything. I was coming from the Zen approach to natural action vs over complicated thinking. You seem to apply a dark shadow to every little thing and then redirect what then appears negative upon your own filtered reality. Nothing in your filtered view of this world can cut through this simple declaration...I LOVE YOU.
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Or just the realization that you are a jacka$$.
Back off Pink, I agree with them.
Anyhow I thnk of this set as I think of Energy Blasters after ED. I just feel incredibly weak and the aoes are not even worth it. (not counting nova or lightning rod)
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Yeah, I guess I will apologize. Unfortunately I can no longer edit my post. At least I am not trying to circumvent the profanity filter by using $$.
After much RV pvp'ing I must say I think that is a HORRIBLE idea.
Scrapper crits are a very big deal.
Cutting on maximal damage output in exchange for faster fury building is bad. That would totally neuter brutes against melee classes.
Chiming in to say that I enjoy the red lightning. Screw Blue.
chiming in to say that we should have a choice
same with the new crappy /invul colors
After playing my Katana/SR I think Jacobs Ladder should be comparable to Flashing Steel which it i not. Shadow Maul has smaller cone because it is your fist. Jacobs Ladder is electricity coming out of your hands and extending forward, same as the sword does.
i am just wondering about chain induction- have they fixed it? are they coming up w/ a new power?
Easy way to fix elec melee:
Get rid of build up and add a Rage type power, but get rid of the tohit buff and put in a recharge buff instead, maybe like 10% recharge. It makes sence thematically, it can be called "Supercharge" or something.
I think build up is one of the more boring powers in alot of powersets, I love when they have something different, rage, soul drain, etc.
Another idea for Chain Induction:
Remove the damage, turn it into a 'jumping' immobilize/defense debuff/resistance debuff.
That way it will increase the damage we do to foes without stealing xp or hampering Fury.
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I've always wanted a straight up sapper -end power in the electrics. The /ice set has Shiver, and there are powers like Heat Loss and Transference that rob a target of endurance.
Make Chain Induction rob double it's current Endurance from each target it hits, with a degredation of the effect as the chain continues. Offset the loss of continued dmg by upping the actual target dmg by 10 percent, and by giving you a chance of recovering endurance for each target hit in the chain thereafter. The amount of possible endurance drained would decrease by 10 percent with each target it carried on to.
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the problem is that Electric is designed like a scrapper set and that's not what works for brute, at least, not as well as ported Tank sets.
leave the aoe, that's fine, but add to each aoe a targeted damage component. Basicaly make them all like thunderstrike. And then put Thunderstrike back on the same DS value as the blaster version.
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▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
Electric Melee presently has 4 viable attacks: Charged Brawl, Havoc Punch, Jacobs Ladder, and Thunder Strike. This is not enough attacks for a Brute and is the fewest number in any Brute primary. The reason Chain Induction and Lightning Rod do not qualify is spelled out below.
Some might prefer Jacobs Ladder to have a wider, more reasonable arc or Thunder Strike to have a higher AoE damage component, but realistically, they are tolerable attacks as presently implemented.
Chain Induction
In summary, this attack is just awful. The XP drain simply must be fixed, as it is the most viable way to make the attack useful. Even if that problem is corrected, Chain Induction would still be poor considering its inconsistency.
If this attack is required to keep the XP drain, it must be increased to basically ridiculous levels to actually make it worth using. It is not reasonable to select and use this power when it amounts to Charged Brawl that may hit more than one target, but also costs you XP.
Lightning Rod
This attack is certainly interesting, but basically unusable. It seems like an attempt to add a level 32 Blaster power to an archetype that needs consistent attacks rather than once in a blue moon attacks. This is not a once-a-fight attack. At best, its a once every 4 fights attack. Powers with a recharge time like this arent even used as fast as possible though; people sit on them waiting for the right situation to occur. The other level 32 Brute attacks will be thrown every ~12 seconds and are a signature component of those power sets. With its current recharge timer, Lightning Rod is not the premier attack in Electric Melee; it is only a curiosity.
:Removed part that no longer applies, have had this sitting on my desktop awhile:
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Also, theres the double whammy of this powers damage not being enhanced like a regular attack. Thats nonsensical. Of the ~50 attacks available to Brutes, why does only this one function differently?
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If you are talking about fury, they changed lrod to be buffed by fury awhile ago. Or do you mean something else?
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Electric Melee presently has 4 viable attacks: Charged Brawl, Havoc Punch, Jacobs Ladder, and Thunder Strike. This is not enough attacks for a Brute and is the fewest number in any Brute primary. The reason Chain Induction and Lightning Rod do not qualify is spelled out below.
Some might prefer Jacobs Ladder to have a wider, more reasonable arc or Thunder Strike to have a higher AoE damage component, but realistically, they are tolerable attacks as presently implemented.
Chain Induction
In summary, this attack is just awful. The XP drain simply must be fixed, as it is the most viable way to make the attack useful. Even if that problem is corrected, Chain Induction would still be poor considering its inconsistency.
If this attack is required to keep the XP drain, it must be increased to basically ridiculous levels to actually make it worth using. It is not reasonable to select and use this power when it amounts to Charged Brawl that may hit more than one target, but also costs you XP.
Lightning Rod
This attack is certainly interesting, but basically unusable. It seems like an attempt to add a level 32 Blaster power to an archetype that needs consistent attacks rather than once in a blue moon attacks. This is not a once-a-fight attack. At best, its a once every 4 fights attack. Powers with a recharge time like this arent even used as fast as possible though; people sit on them waiting for the right situation to occur. The other level 32 Brute attacks will be thrown every ~12 seconds and are a signature component of those power sets. With its current recharge timer, Lightning Rod is not the premier attack in Electric Melee; it is only a curiosity.
:Removed part that no longer applies, have had this sitting on my desktop awhile:
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Actually, the only tolerable attacks this primary has are havoc punch and charged brawl. They are somewhat on par with other bottom level brute attacks. Everything else costs too much endurance, has too slow recharge, has effects not effective for brute fury building, do not do enough damage and, do not hit enough mob AoE. Chain Induction is just broken. The only thing remotely cool in this set has a recharge time that borders on ludicrous. There is no rationalization that can be made to make this primary anything other than what it is; a long building joke whose punchline I only find funny when considering the number of replies made to the "conserve your electric brute name here" thread.
during the event with lightning reflexes and hasten recharge on lr wasnt to bad, but i think i remember reading they didnt mean to give it that low of a recharge.
either way i think chain induction should be just like total focus, and give the set a damage boost and it would be amazing.
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during the event with lightning reflexes and hasten recharge on lr wasnt to bad, but i think i remember reading they didnt mean to give it that low of a recharge.
either way i think chain induction should be just like total focus, and give the set a damage boost and it would be amazing.
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If they centered ELM damage with a two shot (modified chain induction + lightning rod) concept filled in by smaller, effect based attacks, that would be great. It would be a happy medium between single target demolition found in EM primary and area wide damage. At least one attack for ELM, that doesn't recharge over a period of 90 seconds, should do something similar in terms of damage in relation to the other sets or this will be the least played primary out of the brute AT.
No appology needed for the comment earlier PinkStar, I am used to people not agreeing with my outside of the box thinking at times. So I had a thought of why the Electric Damage is how it is and gave a reason as how it could be buffed from faster fury building and all people have to think about is the max damage reduction would destroy brutes yet currently max damage can not really be reached outside of PvE. After all Brutes could be much worse if they had gotten Definace 
As for endurance cost, I really didn't see a problem with endurance cost as I was running a stamina less build on Elec/Elec and also had an Elec/Invuln that did just fine with Stamina and a few endurance reductions.
My Elec/Elec stamina less build is this:
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Exported from Ver: 1.7.6.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder
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Name: Brute-Elec-Elec
Level: 41
Archetype: Brute
Primary: Electric Melee
Secondary: Electric Armor
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01) --> Charged Brawl==> Acc(1)Dmg(3)Dmg(40)
01) --> Charged Armor==> EndRdx(1)DmgRes(5)DmgRes(9)DmgRes(11)
02) --> Havoc Punch==> Acc(2)Dmg(3)Dmg(13)Dmg(29)
04) --> Jacobs Ladder==> Acc(4)Dmg(5)Dmg(13)Dmg(15)EndRdx(23)
06) --> Build Up==> Rechg(6)Rechg(7)Rechg(7)
08) --> Thunder Strike==> Acc(8)Dmg(9)Dmg(11)Dmg(15)EndRdx(23)
10) --> Static Shield==> EndRdx(10)
12) --> Combat Jumping==> DefBuf(12)
14) --> Super Jump==> Jump(14)
16) --> Conductive Shield==> EndRdx(16)DmgRes(17)DmgRes(17)DmgRes(21)
18) --> Chain Induction==> Acc(18)Dmg(19)Dmg(19)Dmg(21)EndRdx(34)
20) --> Lightning Reflexes==> Run(20)
22) --> Aid Other==> IntRdx(22)
24) --> Aid Self==> IntRdx(24)IntRdx(25)Heal(25)Heal(27)Heal(27)Rechg(37)
26) --> Acrobatics==> EndRdx(26)
28) --> Conserve Power==> Rechg(28)Rechg(29)Rechg(31)
30) --> Hasten==> Rechg(30)Rechg(31)Rechg(31)
32) --> Lightning Rod==> Acc(32)Dmg(33)Dmg(33)Dmg(33)EndRdx(34)Rechg(34)
35) --> Power Sink==> Rechg(35)Rechg(36)Rechg(36)EndMod(36)EndMod(37)EndMod(37)
38) --> Power Surge==> Rechg(38)Rechg(39)Rechg(39)DmgRes(39)DmgRes(40)DmgRes(40)
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01) --> Sprint==> Empty(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Empty(1)
01) --> Fury==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
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I didn't save my build for Elec/Invul as I will be rolling an Elec/Elec and teaming with a Kinetics Corruptor to get by until Power Sink and then later follow it up with Fulcrum Shift Lightning Rod for some AoE goodness.
Another blow to the nuts you might say.
Lightning Rod: The Recharge time is now, correctly, 90 seconds and the cast range, which was inadvertantly changed to 90' last patch, is now back to the correct 60' range.
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Another blow to the nuts you might say.
Lightning Rod: The Recharge time is now, correctly, 90 seconds and the cast range, which was inadvertantly changed to 90' last patch, is now back to the correct 60' range.
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How exactly is this a "blow to the nuts"? The range was mistakenly changed during the previous patch. Now it's back to where it was before that patch, where it should have been all along. This is called a bug fix. Not a nerf.
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Another blow to the nuts you might say.
Lightning Rod: The Recharge time is now, correctly, 90 seconds and the cast range, which was inadvertantly changed to 90' last patch, is now back to the correct 60' range.
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How exactly is this a "blow to the nuts"? The range was mistakenly changed during the previous patch. Now it's back to where it was before that patch, where it should have been all along. This is called a bug fix. Not a nerf.
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Because the set needs some love and I don't see that happening.
Intended or not, a 90 second recharge and 60' range makes LR a novelty power at best. I'll be passing on the set myself.
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In reality it just needs some minor tweaks. Overall vs minions and lieutenants I didn't see a huge difference in speed one way or the other in comparison to Super Strength and Electric Melee. So in a PvE environment that probably just means that Super Strength has some extra wasted damage when compared to the lower base damage electric until we include boss killing which Super Strength does much faster. And boss killing is more on lines of PvP encounters which is why Electric is getting such a bad rap for pathetic damage. When running through some numbers for attack chains Electric ends up about 1 BI/sec lower from base damage in comparison to Super Strength. 1 BI/sec is a considerable amount since electric runs around 2 BI/sec and Super Strength gets around 3 BI/sec. Energy damage is less resisted than Smash damage though so someone with 33% smash ressitance puts Electric and Super Strength back on par at 2 BI/sec. Then robots and such have negative resistance to energy making it possible to get the 3 BI/sec rating out of energy vs those foes but as far as I recall no one is negative resistance to smash. Making in the end Rage being the big difference overall in the constant damage output from Super Strength where Electric is more about the AoE alpha strike and the boss will take longer because of no large single target attack but isn't all that bad when you don't try and use Thunder Strike as a single target attack.
Electric is still a little behind though as the negative energy resistant foes are fewer than the non smash resistant foes but I would rather see an increase in some AoE potential damage and some slight and I mean slight increase to single target attacks.
So here is my review/suggestions for Electric Melee:
(note: I use Damage Scaler as this was included in a PM to _Castle_, to compare Damage Scaler (DS) to BI it is .36 BI = 1 DS)
Charged Brawl - .84 Damage Scaler
Havoc Punch - 1.32 Damage Scaler
Charged Brawl and Havoc Punch are good 1,2 powers for fury building, trid to replace charged brawl with boxing and fury building just didn't seem to work to good like that so elected to not take boxing and tough for that reason and the added end cost of Tough was enough to need stamina at that point.
Jacobs Ladder - 1.32 Damage Scaler
Good animation little unreliable as a cone especially after using Lightning Rod as the foes don't tend to line up very well when you teleport right in the middle of them for maximum AoE effect on Lightning Rod. Suggestion would be to just increase the cone to be equal to Shadow Maul to make it a little more reliable for 2 targets.
Build Up - Normal build up, nothing to talk about here.
Thunder Strike - 1.0 Damage Scaler single target, 1.0 short range AoE Damage Scaler
Ok single target attack however animation is a bit long for its single target damage. AoE damage is nice addition howerver its limited range seems to limits its real AoE power. Thoughts to fix this power would be to increase the Single target damage to 1.64 Damage scaler (ex. Stone Mallet) and leave the AoE damage as is or increase the AoE range to 15ft (ex Foot Stomp, Tremor). The current range is an avgerage of hitting about 5 foes on a team and is difficult to even come close to 10 foes when teaming.
Taunt - Normal Taunt, nothting to talk about here.
Chain Induction - 1.32 Damage Scaler
Unreliable AoE from what I could tell so its XP loss wasn't really noticble as it didn't seem to arc much at all. Suggestion for this power would be make it a Single target 1.64 damage scaler. This would make a great follow up power to Thunder Strike for increased single target dps (aka boss fighting).
Lightning Clap
I didn't take this power as I assumed it was very similar to Super Strength->Hand Clap. If the knockback is the same for this as Hand Clap I would like to see it changed to just knockdown to anything -1 and higher in level if the AoE range of Thunder Strike is not modified. If Thunder Strike AoE range is increased than Lightning Clap is ok to leave alone. Reason to make the change if the AoE range of Thunder Strike is left as it currently is would be that once you Lightning Clap the majority of the foes around you would then be out of Thunder Strikes AoE range.
Lightning Rod - 2.52 Damage Scaler AoE
Current 60 second recharge is nice for group to group and great knockback for damage mitigation, if it was really intended to be 90 seconds it will make it a little less useful but in the end it will still be very worth it at 90 seconds as its AoE range is very nice especially compared to Thunder Strike. So what will the difference be from 90 second recharge compared to 60 second recharge? I would guess with 90 seconds slotting would change to 1 Acc, 3 Dmg, 2 Recharge where with 60 seconds 1 Acc, 3 Dmg, 1 Recharge, 1 End Redux was what I was using to have overall difference of 10 seconds longer recharge and ~3 more endurance to use to still be very balanced for the damage done.
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Hmmm, I think the problem here is the fact that you are trying to "think".
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See your post would be so much better without this part. But comments like this just sort of take away rational discussion regardless of any good points you may have made.