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Nah, while everyone has been saying it was on I5 that it got messed i have been constantly telling i think it has been this way almost forever. Its just after I5 that people start noticing the issue since ED took everything down to a point where every bit of power is now required, forcing even the casual players to min max builds and bump into this issue really fast.
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this is distorted. ED closed the gap between min max builds and casual builds by cutting off the min maxers at the knees. the rest of the game didnt change; casual players wern't greatly effected.
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Casual players weren't affected by ED, they were affected greatly by I5.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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this is distorted. ED closed the gap between min max builds and casual builds by cutting off the min maxers at the knees. the rest of the game didnt change; casual players wern't greatly effected.
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The joint of I5 and I6 didnt only lowered the max capability of the tanker, it also lowerd the minimal capability. Yes, the gap between min and max is shorter now, but min is extremely low and max is, depending on the tanker, far from enough (fire, non granite stone) or simply holding there (ice/invlun)
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Casual players weren't affected by ED, they were affected greatly by I5.
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ED also affected.
I was never a min maxer until I5 came arround, and i was pushed worse with I6.
I5 hurt casual players the most i agree, but with I6 i was able to six slot just 3 powers and feel way closer to a real tank (we all know fire was never the strongest thing arround).
So, to get back power i had to go for tough and other minmax build options, even so i perform poorly compared to invuln and ice. Having 3 powers 6 sloted was not really minmaxing, it was actually the first thing you would think about doing as a noob, to six slot the power that keeps you alive or the attack you feel is the best.
Look- this has been going on for a long time now.
Fire has the lowest hp of all tankers
Fire has the lowest heal of all tankers
Fire has the highest damage of all tankers
None of this is disputable.
The issue lies in not lowest/highest but relativity towards other tankers. While I5/I6 stripped defenses, multiple nerfs were incurred to Burn.
The set itself is out of whack. Not just HF. Not just Burn. Not just Temp Prot. Not just Fiery Embrace.
Burn needs a counterpart -a hold to be used at its' potential. Like Ice Patch.
Fiery Embrace needs a Fire secondary to be used at its' potential.
Why does a power require another power to be used at its' potential? That's just not right. That's borderline forced teaming.
EVERY power in a set should be desireable on its' own merits. This set is just out of whack. Serious attention should be paid to it to correct the laziness of the devs.
Yes - I said the laziness of the devs.
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Look- this has been going on for a long time now.
Fire has the lowest hp of all tankers
Fire has the lowest heal of all tankers
Fire has the highest damage of all tankers
None of this is disputable.
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Burn is the only argument of damage in the fire tanker (auras are in other sets and fiery embrace... a no acc buildup with double the recharge... yea... right...)
Burn is situational, and not everyone likes the power anyways. It does not do that much damage, defnitively not enough to make the tanker weaker than a scrapper, for you get not the offense of a scrapper with it even on those rare situations.
Oh and heal wise, truth is, healing flames is better heal per second than dull pain.
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Oh and heal wise, truth is, healing flames is better heal per second than dull pain.
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I'll try to remember that when I take the alpha next time.
There is more utility there than health recovery.
Not sure what you mean by Burn is the only argument there...
Are you excluding Consume and Burning Aura,....?
What does that first sentance mean?
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I'll try to remember that when I take the alpha next time.
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Heal per second is not what helps you against the alpha, its the big HP buff that does
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There is more utility there than health recovery.
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I didnt argue the HP point you made, comparing those two powers heal sides alone, healing flames simply does more healing over time than dull pain. Im not arguing the power to be better overal.
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Not sure what you mean by Burn is the only argument there...
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Burn is situational, if you cant hold/imob the enemy its no use, this means the mayority of fire tankers see no benefit from it.
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Are you excluding Consume and Burning Aura
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Burning Aura cant really be counted as an advantage, every tanker but invuln has a damage aura.
As for consume, the damage it does is the most pitful thing you will see in this game, damage wise. I think Cobra Strike does more damge over the same ammount of time against 3 enemies (and yea i may be exagerating but its horrible for damage on a horrible timer, you use the power for the weak end drain, that does not compares to Ice's Energy Absorbtion)
I think you and I are on the same page.
I was being sarcastic in my first line.
And, I understood the words you were saying, just didn't understand where you are coming from.
All I'm saying is is that the Fire/ has more damage than any tanker. We can agree on that-no?
Fire/ has less utility (read as health utility) than any other tanker. As well as lower overall hp.
What my point was was that while we can agree that Fire/ has more damage and less Hp utility, the disparity between the two is what is discouraging when in relation to the other tanker sets.
As far as the set of powers themselves, well, I'm just disapointed in the lack of effort/thoughtfulness of the devs.
FE- requires /fire to be truly effective
Burn requires a hold to be truly effective
If there was a holdin /fire, that would be different, but as it stands, one of the powers gets left out in the cold- pun intended.
It's sad that each power cannot stand on its' own. They should, without having to rely on other powers. At least not to this extreme.
Stars- it may be just too early for me to be hashing the boards, think I'll get some coffee 
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Burning Aura cant really be counted as an advantage, every tanker but invuln has a damage aura.
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Yes, but all the other damage auras do less damage.
That's like saying that, since every tanker set has a resistance auto, we should ignore them in balance considerations. But I wouldn't put RPD and Permafrost in the same category, just as I wouldn't include Blazing Aura and Icicles.
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Burning Aura cant really be counted as an advantage, every tanker but invuln has a damage aura.
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Yes, but all the other damage auras do less damage.
That's like saying that, since every tanker set has a resistance auto, we should ignore them in balance considerations. But I wouldn't put RPD and Permafrost in the same category, just as I wouldn't include Blazing Aura and Icicles.
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Im not saying it does not get to be considered, I mean it cant be pointed as as an "advantage we must penalize your survivability for"
As for it doing more damage than other auras, i'll see if i run some tests on that to see how big of a diference it is.
According to hero builder
Blazing aura = .6111 fire
Icicles = .5556 s/l
Mud Pots = .4161, with a slow and immobilize component
Hero builder has been wrong before, but if it's right, that extra .06 brawls is negligible, and mud pots has great effects for the whole .2 brawls lower damage. I've never paid enough attention to my aura, but I'll say it does feel to be around 1 brawl, although my character is a brute, so I may have a higher brawl index for that (but I doubt it). Oh well.
On the subject of heals, dull pain is good for absorbing alpha, but it's not very good for sustaining you in a fight, unless the mobs have problems beating your regen. Healing flames is decent enough to last you a bit, but you won't absorb alphas with it nearly as well.
But again, if you take into account aid self, the dull paining tanker has a 60% better aid self, whereas the healing flame tanker doesn't.
So I think fire tankers lose out in that part of the heal aspect too, once you take pool powers into consideration.
So what's to balance out lower mitigation over all, worse self heals, no knockback resists, and a useless 9th tier power? Firey Embrace apparently, but I honestly doubt that. However, Blazing aura is no where near strong enough to justify it as a balancing point, burn is useless, and that's the damage powers right there.
So I dunno, I guess having firey embrace is in the devs eyes worth all the cons.
At any rate, I'm enjoying the fire/fire brute side, but I won't complain if they end up buffing us up eventually.
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I just hope that the devs don't read this and decide to nerf aid self instead of boosting healing flames 
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I'd like to do both, actually (and both my Brute and my Stalker use it!) But, alas, Aid Self isn't changing. Healing Flames, on the other hand, might get a boost.
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I just hope that the devs don't read this and decide to nerf aid self instead of boosting healing flames
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I'd like to do both, actually (and both my Brute and my Stalker use it!) But, alas, Aid Self isn't changing. Healing Flames, on the other hand, might get a boost.
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T H A N K Y O U ! ! !
And all fear, if castle is not nerfing aid self yet its because they have not figured how to prevent its use for tankers without hurting squishies or because he has not convinced Geko to give the green light, but it will happen sooner or later!!! :P (just joking but it may be true)
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I'd like to do both, actually (and both my Brute and my Stalker use it!) But, alas, Aid Self isn't changing. Healing Flames, on the other hand, might get a boost.
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Huzzah for _Castle_!
You know, even if Healing Flames doesn't get a boost, I'd still buy Castle a couple of beers just for responding to a thread AND actually looking into the code to do something about it.
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So what's to balance out lower mitigation over all, worse self heals, no knockback resists, and a useless 9th tier power? Firey Embrace apparently ...
So I dunno, I guess having firey embrace is in the devs eyes worth all the cons.
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As a newbie to high-level tankers, I've been staring alot at the numbers provided in these forums. So I'll apologize in advance for my inexperienced opinion on the subject.
answering the "So what's to balance ..." question above, my opinion is that Fiery Aura is offering an offensive-minded aoe tanker the tools he needs. And this opinion is supported by:
1. Fiery Embrace to encourage pairing up with Fiery Melee's AoEs
2. Consume to feed the endurance-heavy aoes
3. Blazing Aura at level 1 as an offensive pbaoe taunting aura (correct me if I'm wrong about gauntlet working with blazing aura)
And I've become convinced that the Fire/Fire tank "misfit" was originally designed to pair up with the Defender "misfit" of Force Fields/*. And since the FF defender powerset was not catching on, they developed Sonic Resonance as the Fire^2 tank's partner.
Here's hoping we can get that boost!
Thanks for the corespondence Castle.
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I just hope that the devs don't read this and decide to nerf aid self instead of boosting healing flames
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I'd like to do both, actually (and both my Brute and my Stalker use it!)
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So now we learn the truth.
We always thought Geko and States were the nerf happy folks, and _Castle_ and Posi the nice ones looking for places to help us.
_Castle_'s been playing on both sides...
Oh, you so sneaky.
Thanks for the info Castle! I know it's been said before but I'll say it again. You rock! Thanks for all the hardwork and feedback.
Have a cookie!
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I'd like to do both, actually (and both my Brute and my Stalker use it!) But, alas, Aid Self isn't changing. Healing Flames, on the other hand, might get a boost.
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I just hope that the devs don't read this and decide to nerf aid self instead of boosting healing flames
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I'd like to do both, actually (and both my Brute and my Stalker use it!) But, alas, Aid Self isn't changing. Healing Flames, on the other hand, might get a boost.
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Aid Self has saved my fire blaster occasionally while soloing. Please don't change it. Not everyone plays melee characters with built-in defenses.
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I just hope that the devs don't read this and decide to nerf aid self instead of boosting healing flames
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I'd like to do both, actually (and both my Brute and my Stalker use it!) But, alas, Aid Self isn't changing. Healing Flames, on the other hand, might get a boost.
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Aid Self has saved my fire blaster occasionally while soloing. Please don't change it. Not everyone plays melee characters with built-in defenses.
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Since he said they're not changing it I feel comfortable saying this. Aid Self is overpowered. It's on a third of the timer that the other self heals are and it heals for more than Healing Flames. My Blaster loves it, but a 20 sec. recharge is just silly.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I just hope that the devs don't read this and decide to nerf aid self instead of boosting healing flames
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I'd like to do both, actually (and both my Brute and my Stalker use it!) But, alas, Aid Self isn't changing. Healing Flames, on the other hand, might get a boost.
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Yay. 
I can't see any reason for it to heal so much less than Reconstruction.
Although I think of the Envoy of Shadows and Baphomet with a boosted Healing Flames and worry just a little.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Although I think of the Envoy of Shadows and Baphomet with a boosted Healing Flames and worry just a little.
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Well, remember the old Statesman Standby: strength in numbers.
Or, in other words, bring more friends.
~Gabriel
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Since he said they're not changing it I feel comfortable saying this.
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There is always tomorrow.
In other words: Shhh.
Thanks for eight fun years, Paragon.
Most likely, if they nerf it, they'll mess with the interrupt, make it less enhanceable or something, so that it isn't so impossible to stop once slotted. That'd honestly be how I'd balance it, if I were to do such a think. But at the cost of a whole pool power and 2 power slots just for healing yourself, I think it's actually fairly balanced. It's just that certain heals are a bit unbalanced.
EDIT:
Oh and *does the happy dance cause a red name replied to him*
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I'm confused, and that's a good indication I'm wrong about something.... so to clarify
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Bottom line: If you factor base tohit into only Defense, then you can't compare Defense and Resistance. If you factor them into both, you can't combine them. The only time this is generally a good idea is when you are calculating net damage, and aren't going to compare the mitigation numbers directly at all.
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So, if I get you right, you are saying that if I say 25% defense is like 75% mitigation, I can't compare that with 50% resistance, unless I include the tohit, which makes that 75% as well, but if I do that, I can't obviously say .25 * .25 = my combined number.
If I got you right, I don't think I was doing that, I was puting the tohit into just my defense, then combining it with the resistance through multiplication to get my overall mitigation. (i.e. (.5 - .25) * .5 = new number)).
But I'm not sure if you were address me, or star, or just in general. You quoted me, so I'm not sure if there was a mistake I was making that you were addressing or what. My mention of squishies having 50% mitigation was in relation to my other numbers that had tohit figured in too, but I dunno.
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Basically, that's fine: if you equate 25% defense with "75% mitigation" relative to damage sent instead of damage taken by defenseless players, and its simply a shortcut for calculating damage, that's basically fine. In fact, that's essentially what I do when scribbling damage calculations on paper myself, or roughly estimating them in my head.
But I tend not to echo it in writing, because there are a lot of people reading the forums that will misinterpret that calculation badly.
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In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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Nah, while everyone has been saying it was on I5 that it got messed i have been constantly telling i think it has been this way almost forever. Its just after I5 that people start noticing the issue since ED took everything down to a point where every bit of power is now required, forcing even the casual players to min max builds and bump into this issue really fast.
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this is distorted. ED closed the gap between min max builds and casual builds by cutting off the min maxers at the knees. the rest of the game didnt change; casual players wern't greatly effected.