[ QUOTE ]
10% is 10%, no matter the AT.
100 health vs 140 health is defintely not the same, especially considering in most cases that 140 health is being applied to someone with a good deal of damage resistance. It means that the tanker with the same scale of heal will almost certainly survive longer than a blaster with a 100 point heal.
Surely, you agree with that?
[/ QUOTE ]
You just confused me. Yes, a tanker with a 10% heal will last longer than a blaster with a 10% heal, and by longer I mean proportionly longer.
But if you give a naked tanker a 100 POINT heal (not %) it will stretch his life the same ammount of time it will for a blaster. Sure with Resistance factored in there is a diference, but i am confused since you noted first a 10% heal across ATs and then a 100 point heal comparation between blasters and tankers.
Da5id...
Your avatar just made me get a special feeling deep down inside.
"YOU GOT THE TOUCH! *WAAWAWAAWAAAA!!!*
"YOU GOT THE POWAH!
[ QUOTE ]
10% is 10%, no matter the AT.
100 health vs 140 health is defintely not the same, especially considering in most cases that 140 health is being applied to someone with a good deal of damage resistance. It means that the tanker with the same scale of heal will almost certainly survive longer than a blaster with a 100 point heal.
Surely, you agree with that?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but that isn't quite the point I was making.
Colloquially, we tend to say that 30% resistance is 30% resistance no matter your health level. We don't tend to say "30% resistance helps you more if you have higher health." If we really did that consistently, we'd say that your resistance gets stronger as you go up in level, and your health rises. We don't *tend* to say that: our perspective is that 30% resistance helps someone with high health the same amount as someone with low health, because we assume that we've already counted high health as a separate benefit already.
You bring up resistance: regeneration is a bit sticky because of how it interacts with defense and resistance. In survival terms, defense and resistance act to magnify the effect of regeneration (including heals) on a relative basis. So theoretically, Healing Flames helps a fire tanker more than it would a blaster, even if the blaster had tanker health. But thats a separate issue from scaling heals to tanker health.
How we view the heals depends on how we view the benefit of having higher health. We *could* look at +health in absolute terms: we could say that +health added X health points, plus boosted natural regeneration by Y points per second. If we did, we could also say that +health boosted the effects of heals. But then, how do you compare the benefit of +health to quantities people have a firmer intuitive grasp on, like resistance and defense? It takes seconds to explain resistance to someone in a way they'll grasp. It takes days to explain defense to someone in a way they'll claim to grasp. You'll *never* explain to the average person what the accumulated effects of higher health cap and enhanced regeneration are in terms of survival in a way they'll ever get a clean grasp of.
But you can describe +health in terms of resistance: its non-stackable resistance of value 1 - (1/healthboost). I.e a +40% health boost means you only take 1/1.4 = 71.4% of the incoming damage, and therefore you act as if you have 28.6% resistance. But this intuitive grasp of +health only works if you then normalize all heals and regeneration in percentage of health bar terms: a 10% heal is a 10% heal regardless of max health.
Break that by claiming +10% heal is stronger for someone with higher health, and now you have no way to explain the net effect of +health itself, except in very messy mathematical terms.
So it comes down to this: if you think +10% heal is really 140 points of heal for a 1400 health tanker, and thus "better" than a 100 point heal for a 1000 health blaster, then what's the precise benefit of having the higher health itself: how would you describe it in a way that doesn't double count any benefits?
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I would consider Tankers to benefit more from 50% resistance than a Blaster.
[/ QUOTE ]
I prefer to look at things in the way in which the greatest number of variables becomes scale-invariant. If tankers benefit from 50% resistance more than blasters, then level 50 tanks benefit from 50% resistance more than level 49 tanks. With each level you get more health, and thus getting a +health benefit. I would much rather call that benefit a singular benefit (-ScaledDamage), than calling it a +HealthCap +Regen +HealFactor +EffectiveResSurvival +EffectiveDefSurvival benefit. Its possible, but no thanks.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
I thought I thought it made sense....but then I thought about it some more...and......huh? What are we talking about? 
I'd argue it's the same heal, but more effective when combined with resists and defenses and natural regen rates, over say even a blaster with the same hit points, and that'd be why it's better, in a way, for tankers over blasters, much like you can't consider resists and defense separately, but you have to combine them to get the full effect.
Basically put, if you are taking less damage over time, your heal fixes a higher percent of that damage over time, thus it's higher mitigation for a tanker over a blaster.
Or, if 1000 damage comes at your tanker, and you mitigate 500 of that as a tanker and 0 of that as a blaster, and the tanker heals for 140, and the blaster heals for 100, the tanker's heal mitigates 28% of that, whereas the blaster's heal only mitigates 10%.
And thus, the heal for the tanker is 2.8 times better in this scenario than the blaster's heal.
I'd argue that the tanker is supposed to take on many more enemies than a blaster at once tho, and all those bonuses together aren't enough for what the tanker has to face vs what the blaster has to face. But that takes a lot of math I don't have to prove.
EDIT:
Which, is quite possible that you are saying this, but I think castle said that too in his post, that it's the same heal, but when added in with resists gives the tanker more of a benefit. At least I think he's saying that.
One way to see the value of a heal is in terms of the damage done by a minion. Using iakona's numbers, a minion using a damage scale 1.0 melee attack (BI 2.7778) does 6.43% of a Tank's health in damage. This is true for a level 20 minion against a level 20 Tank and it is true for a level 50 minion against a level 50 Tank.
The fairest think I can come up with is to reference ranged ATs against ranged damage and melee ATs against melee damage. So then
Ranged ATs, 1.0 damage scale ranged attack
Blaster: 6.0%
Defender: 7.11%
Controller: 7.11%
Melee ATs, 1.0 damage scale melee attack
Scrapper: 9.00%
Tank: 6.34%
What is interesting about these tables is that it suggests that as long as a Blaster can keep out of melee range (where attacks do 66% more damage), he is the most robust of all the ATs. Scrappers, OTOH, are the most fragile. Ignoring resistances, I would say a 10% heal is worth the most to a Blaster and the least to a Scrapper.
This, of course, is a PvE argument and uses the fact that mobs are scaled to do 66% more damage in melee than at range. In a PvP environment, the difference between melee and ranged damage is considerably smaller.
[ QUOTE ]
If you are losing 25% of your health in about 2-3 seconds consistantly (40% heal, but with dull pain running, the heal is 25%, you are fighting guys you shouldn't be fighting, and nothing is going to save you. You'd be dead in about 10 seconds, and that's hardly enough to take out your enemies.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, you've never faced a +2 or +3 Freakshow, Warwolf, or Longbow boss? You've never faced an AV? You've never faced a Giant Monster?
[ QUOTE ]
It has a 20 second base recharge, why would you want to put that many recharges in it? It already comes up faster than most self heals fully slotted, unslotted.
And still, with 1 recharge and hasten, it comes up about once every 10 seconds. Even without hasten, it still has a 15 second recharge. That's pretty darn good.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure. But you can get two recharges in the other powers. Just assuming two recharges in Reconstruction gets it down to 36 seconds, and it's a 25% bigger heal (25% of your base HP as opposed to 20%, 25 = 125% of 20).
I pop Reconstruction on my DM/Regen and there is nothing but positive effect. I pop Aid Self on my BS/Invul and I stop fighting. I pop Reconstruction when my Regen is on fire and it works. I pop Aid Self when my Invul is on fire and it often does not. I pop Reconstruction while running and it works fine; I pop Aid Self while running and it fails.
I'm not trying to say Aid Self sucks somehow. I'm trying to point out that I don't believe for a second that it's massively out of balance with other self-heals. It heals for less, less reliably and for slightly more endurance, but more often. At most imbalanced I call it on par with the others, and in practice I call it harder to use correctly.
Healing Flames is really the outlier here. It does not compare favorably with the other self-heals. HF should compare favorably to Reconstruction or Dull Pain (clearly a change in the power on the latter idea).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I've tried to read though as much of this thread as i could, but i'm at work so i can't read that often. I'll apoligize if this has been asked and answered.
My question is: Why can't Healing Flames provide the same heal % as Dull Pain? Is the +toxic resistance that much of a difference in the function of the power that it has to be such a weaker heal? Would it be unbalanced to keep it the way it is and add +regeneration boost for it's duration? To clarify the +regeneration; I mean an enhanceable % that would cause Healing Flames to work like Health from the Fitness Power Pool while it was active.
-The Elite-[50's]Va'Leria�X'hian�Stormy Monday�Radical Burn�Mo'Mentum�Heat-Source�Professor Blaze
-World Wide Evil, Inc-[50s]Soulfire�Perma.Frost�Kold Soul�Foxphyre�Pitch-Black�Corrupt Fusion�Cassanova Brown�Tyler Thorn�Iron Siren�Solaura�Fortunauta Wade�Look'Alike�Arctic Engineer
Because Fire Tanks need to be further reduced.
I mean 3 useless powers aren't enough to kill them yet so they need 4.
[ QUOTE ]
I've tried to read though as much of this thread as i could, but i'm at work so i can't read that often. I'll apoligize if this has been asked and answered.
My question is: Why can't Healing Flames provide the same heal % as Dull Pain? Is the +toxic resistance that much of a difference in the function of the power that it has to be such a weaker heal? Would it be unbalanced to keep it the way it is and add +regeneration boost for it's duration? To clarify the +regeneration; I mean an enhanceable % that would cause Healing Flames to work like Health from the Fitness Power Pool while it was active.
[/ QUOTE ]
The recharge time on Dull Pain is *much* longer than Healing Flames. If I remember right, the base recharge on Dull Pain 6 times longer than the base recharge of Healing Flames.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
10% is 10%, no matter the AT.
100 health vs 140 health is defintely not the same, especially considering in most cases that 140 health is being applied to someone with a good deal of damage resistance. It means that the tanker with the same scale of heal will almost certainly survive longer than a blaster with a 100 point heal.
Surely, you agree with that?
[/ QUOTE ]
You just confused me. Yes, a tanker with a 10% heal will last longer than a blaster with a 10% heal, and by longer I mean proportionly longer.
But if you give a naked tanker a 100 POINT heal (not %) it will stretch his life the same ammount of time it will for a blaster. Sure with Resistance factored in there is a diference, but i am confused since you noted first a 10% heal across ATs and then a 100 point heal comparation between blasters and tankers.
[/ QUOTE ]
He didn't give a 100 point heal comparision between blasters and tankers. He said a heal that scales to 100 hp for a Blaster will give more health to a Tanker (in absolute terms). For example, if Aid Self gives a Blaster 100 hp, a tanker of the same level will get 155 hp.
It means that the tanker with the same scale of heal will almost certainly survive longer than a heal that gives a blaster a 100 point heal.
[ QUOTE ]
I prefer to look at things in the way in which the greatest number of variables becomes scale-invariant. If tankers benefit from 50% resistance more than blasters, then level 50 tanks benefit from 50% resistance more than level 49 tanks. With each level you get more health, and thus getting a +health benefit. I would much rather call that benefit a singular benefit (-ScaledDamage), than calling it a +HealthCap +Regen +HealFactor +EffectiveResSurvival +EffectiveDefSurvival benefit. Its possible, but no thanks.
[/ QUOTE ]
You really haven't messed with other ATs, then, have you?
When you start throwing control powers or multi-AT teams, you *have* to get a universalized value, or you'll really get fudgered when you toss enemies into the simulation.
Looking at things in a proportional method is great in scaled samples like the excellent work by yourself, DrRock, or Starsman, but I've tried it for group simulations, and if there's a way, it's even more complex than what I'm doing.
[ QUOTE ]
The recharge time on Dull Pain is *much* longer than Healing Flames. If I remember right, the base recharge on Dull Pain 6 times longer than the base recharge of Healing Flames.
[/ QUOTE ]
ok i totally forgot the recharge time of DP. i should clarify that i mean't, why not make Healing Flames function like Dull Pain and remove the Toxic resistance. Then the debate would be done. Right? Or they could increase the Recharge time like Dull Pain but keep the same heal %. Instead of the HP increase give it a +Regeneration % like Health that lasts the duration of the power.
I hope i'm not opening up a can of worms by asking for a regeneration power on a Tank build. I just think it would the benifit of having a Fire Tank as oppose to re-rolling as something else. Would anyone see that as unbalanced? A 10% enhanceble heal with a 40% unenhanceable Regeneration for 90 Secs?
-The Elite-[50's]Va'Leria�X'hian�Stormy Monday�Radical Burn�Mo'Mentum�Heat-Source�Professor Blaze
-World Wide Evil, Inc-[50s]Soulfire�Perma.Frost�Kold Soul�Foxphyre�Pitch-Black�Corrupt Fusion�Cassanova Brown�Tyler Thorn�Iron Siren�Solaura�Fortunauta Wade�Look'Alike�Arctic Engineer
90 seconds of +40% unenhanceable regen will get you a total of 37.5% of your health, at a rate of 0.625% per second.
I think that if you want to add a meaningful feature to the power, adding "Nerfed Health" is not the route to take.
EDIT: I sounded like a snide jerk. My point is: The buff could be higher, and enhancable, and likely wouldn't be broken.
In a way, Dull Pain and its ilk are already equivalent to a 40% regen buff at base for their duration, due to the way +HP and base Regen interact.
Mission Arc: Metatronic Mayhem (Id 1750): A tale of robots gone wrong, rogue robots gone right, and madmen gone every which way but loose.
[ QUOTE ]
I hope i'm not opening up a can of worms by asking for a regeneration power on a Tank build.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why would that be opening a can of worms? Stone has regeneration built into Rooted, so it is not new to the AT.
50 Fire/Kin Cont
50 Fire/Axe Tank
50 Spine/Inv Scrap
50 Eng/Dev Blast
50 Claw/SR Scrap
50 Emp/Dark Def
50 Eng/Elec Brute
50 Fire/MM Blast
My DeviantArt Page
I think I can see part of what Arcanaville means, even if I dont agree 100% with his points.
How I see it: 50% resistance is weaker in a scrapper than in a tanker, but even so they decided to give scrappers 75% of that, so a 50% resistance becomes 37.5 resistance, coupled with high hp, this means a WAY greater gap than just the 25% many people think separate tankers from scrappers, with a 50% number, we end up having a gap of about 42.86%, and this gap becomes bigger with higher resistance (thats part of the general tanker issue now, the numbers are so low in some sets the gap becomes less meaningful)
So, leaving it the same for both ATs, would mean the gap would be way lesser and then we do can say tankers overall dont have enough of an advantage over scrappers in survival, we need both, the high HP AND the higher base number.
So on a similar fashion, you would think, that although a 25% heal is stronger on a tanker than on a scrapper, you would make a self heal equally more powerful on the tanker than you would on the scrapper, so not only should healing flames be stronger than it is, but it should be 25/.75 as strong (in other words 33.3%). Using the formulas I describe on the guide on my signature, though, JUST giving 33.3% base to healing flames would make fire tankers just as good as non-granite stone tankers unless you are facing fire damage. Not what Id ever call overpowered.
Yeah, of course self-heals are underperforming for Tankers. I've been saying that even in that stupid "Tankers can't tank" thread in the general AT powers forum. It's why I thought Healing Flames should be bumped to a much higher scalar than it currently was.
Scrappers have ~72% of a Tanker's health bar. At least for the example of Invuln, they get ~75% of the efficenct for a defense buff / resistance buff that a Tanker does. As a result, the design plan is for Tankers to have 185% survivability of a scrapper - that's the absolute value difference between a defense buff and a resistance buff between Tankers and Scrappers.
That's obviously not how things work in practice, even with Invuln - Dull Pain and the defense debuff on Unyielding get in the way - but it's where the line in the sand has been drawn.
But self-heals work at a high 72% effectiveness for Scrappers. That's ridiculous compared to the other powers, and it's also why /regen seems so strong compared to the other sets.
Healing Flames heals the player for 17.5% HP, correct?
Yet in comparison to other self healing powers available to the other Tanker Primaries it is inferior.
I could whine about other aspects of the Primaries, imbalances and such, but let's be honest.
Healing Flames is weak. 17.5%, with a long animation, tends to equate to next to nothing. Numerous people have complained that by the time Healing Flames finishes they've already lost what they healed.
I know you have the animation crew looking into that one issue, but what exactly helps to compensate for the far inferior amount healed in comparison to other Tanker Primary self-heals?
[ QUOTE ]
90 seconds of +40% unenhanceable regen will get you a total of 37.5% of your health, at a rate of 0.625% per second.
I think that if you want to add a meaningful feature to the power, adding "Nerfed Health" is not the route to take.
EDIT: I sounded like a snide jerk. My point is: The buff could be higher, and enhancable, and likely wouldn't be broken.
In a way, Dull Pain and its ilk are already equivalent to a 40% regen buff at base for their duration, due to the way +HP and base Regen interact.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why is it when a "suggestion" is made for a power that isn't quite what it's being compared to that power is immediately "nerfed"? this is why i avoid posting suggestions in threads such as this. If that isn't enough of a buff why don't you suggest a way to improve the suggestion?
ps. even after your edit you still sound like a snide jerk.
-The Elite-[50's]Va'Leria�X'hian�Stormy Monday�Radical Burn�Mo'Mentum�Heat-Source�Professor Blaze
-World Wide Evil, Inc-[50s]Soulfire�Perma.Frost�Kold Soul�Foxphyre�Pitch-Black�Corrupt Fusion�Cassanova Brown�Tyler Thorn�Iron Siren�Solaura�Fortunauta Wade�Look'Alike�Arctic Engineer
[ QUOTE ]
So, you've never faced a +2 or +3 Freakshow, Warwolf, or Longbow boss? You've never faced an AV? You've never faced a Giant Monster?
[/ QUOTE ]
I have with teammate support and some of those solo (+3 freakshow are nothing to write home about.... the bosses, sure they do crapton of damage, but they wait a year inbetween their attacks too, so it's not 25% health per 2 seconds), and if those guys do damage that fast, I'm not going to kill them in that amount of time anyways.
Anyways I said consistantly doing 33% health every 2-3 seconds. Burst damage is one thing, but if you are literally losing 100% of your life every 8 seconds, there's no way you are going to win. Considering that one attack animation is 33% of your life gone... yeah.
But I'll give you that Reconstruction is as good if not better than aid self. It's for a regen set so something would be wrong if it wasn't.
I remember using Dark Regeneration yesterday. Now there's a real self heal. I think you are probably right that compared to heals like that, aid self isn't overpowered. But dull pain is almost weak compared to aid self or even healing flames, in terms of healing over time, although DP has different benefits, it's hard to even include it in the same selfheal category.
[ QUOTE ]
A 10% enhanceble heal with a 40% unenhanceable Regeneration for 90 Secs?
[/ QUOTE ]
This would actually be much weaker than it currently is. With no real defenses to go on, we'd basically just have a much weaker heal as the regeneration wouldn't be that good without defenses or other regen to stack on.
I'd much rather they just remove the animation time problems and increase the heal to 25% base. Then I'd be fine with it.
When i'm healing, If both the blaster and the tank drop to 25% at the same time, I heal the blaster first becuase he is more likely to die on the next hit and the tank is more likely to still be going on the next it.
[ QUOTE ]
10% is 10%, no matter the AT.
100 health vs 140 health is defintely not the same, especially considering in most cases that 140 health is being applied to someone with a good deal of damage resistance. It means that the tanker with the same scale of heal will almost certainly survive longer than a blaster with a 100 point heal.
Surely, you agree with that?
[/ QUOTE ]
No, I do not agree with that. That is, the numbers are right, but then the Tanker and Scrapper OTHER defenses, such as Resists, should also be the exact same %, and Tankers should just get more effect out of them because of higher HPs.
In other words, it's not that Healing Flames doesn't match up with the most direct analogue in the Scrapper powersets. It's that it doesn't match up, while all the other direct analogues have the Tanker defense as stronger than the Scrapper. It is the one comparable power that is no better for Tankers than for Scrappers, while other powers are better for Tankers. In short, it's underpowered not by comparison with Scrappers but by comparison with how the other Tanker powers match up to Scrapper powers.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would you say that 50% resistance was "stronger" for tankers than blasters? I wouldn't. But 50% resistance acts to increase survivability between the two in a proportional way, not a linear way. Resistance doesn't buy everyone a fixed amount of time, everyone reacts to resistance in a percentage way; incoming damage drops by the same fraction, survivability goes up by a different fraction.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I would consider Tankers to benefit more from 50% resistance than a Blaster...
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, that's exactly Arcana's point! Yes, the tanker's survivability is proportionately larger, but the saying that the resistance itself is stronger is a misuse of terminology, and just tends to confuse the unwary.
Imprecise definitions of "stronger", "survivability", "offense/defense" etc do more to confuse the comparisons between the ATs than they do to help it.