So in your opinion, is this working as intended or needs a buff? Because healing flames is less effective than aid self, as you pointed out.
YAY- no nerf!
Not yet anyway 
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, here's the scoop.
Heal Self is not affected by AT Mods directly any longer. I'm not certain when this changed, but it was before 9/21/2004. The Heal Self Table is now a straight 10% of the AT's base (unbuffed) Health. So, Tankers still see a greater effect from a Heal Self of even scale than a Blaster or Defender because their base health is higher.
So, these values ARE correct.
[ QUOTE ]
A level 30 Tanker using an unenhanced Healing Flames gets 178.5 health. With 2 SO's, that would increase to 296.31. 178.5 is 17.5% of a Tankers health at that level. 296.31 is 29% of a Tankers health at that level.
[/ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]
I have not tested Aid Self, but i have tested and analyzed Reconstruction vs Healing Flames.
They do not yield a better benefit to the tanker for having higher HP, actually, they give the exact same benefit to both, as 25% of a scrapper base HP is 17.5% of a tanker's base hp.
I have also not tested it personaly but i have been confirmed by various peacebringers their self heal in dwarf form actually gives then 25% of their dwarf form hp.
So, bug or no bug, changed or not changed, will it remain at 17.5%? Do you actually think its right for it to be so?
Ow!! Analized Healing Flames - that has got to hurt. 
Protector Server
Woeful Knight (BS/Regen/Body Scrapper)
Kevin Christian (MC/FF/Primal Controller)
SilverCybernaut (Eng/Dev/Munitions Blaster)
Apixie OhNo (Fire/Fire/Pyre Tanker)
Y'ru Glowen (Rad/Rad/Psy Defender)
It really does seem like it was balanced around providing a 25% heal, like so many other self heals as Starsman pointed out.
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, here's the scoop.
Heal Self is not affected by AT Mods directly any longer. I'm not certain when this changed, but it was before 9/21/2004. The Heal Self Table is now a straight 10% of the AT's base (unbuffed) Health. So, Tankers still see a greater effect from a Heal Self of even scale than a Blaster or Defender because their base health is higher.
So, these values ARE correct.
[ QUOTE ]
A level 30 Tanker using an unenhanced Healing Flames gets 178.5 health. With 2 SO's, that would increase to 296.31. 178.5 is 17.5% of a Tankers health at that level. 296.31 is 29% of a Tankers health at that level.
[/ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]
Awesome! That's fantastic, _Castle_!! Thank you so much for the time you spent checking on this power!!
Now I can truly say my flames have been healed!!
[ QUOTE ]
Especially since come i7 everyone is going to have that 50% no matter what, why not have it in the equation? It's basically a constant, a modifer on your mitigation so to speak. It's easy enough to change in the equation should the 50% change. And if the devs change the number, it does have an effect on your overall survivability, so doing so would also show that the tank's effectiveness/damage taken over time has changed.
I prefer not to think of it as my mitigation and enemies's accuracy. I prefer to think of it as %of damage taken over time with X set. Yes this means that all squishes automatically have 50% damage taken over time, but it's true.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, sorta.
Its actually mathematically sound to look at damage mitigation in either way; factoring in the base 50% tohit or not. But its not valid for mitigation ratios because then the effects of two powers become tricky to compare.
When we say a power with 20% defense has a "mitigation ratio" of 40%, we are saying that that power reduces damage by 40%. But what we tend to forget to say is "reduces from what?" If your standard is "someone without the power" then you are claiming an incremental benefit of the power. If your standard is "relative to the situation where every single attack hits" you aren't claiming a benefit of the power, but the total "benefit" of the power, and the inherent benefit everyone gets (20% + 50% = 70%).
When we look at a 40% resistance power, we have to be careful to be consistent: its 40% mitigation relative to the standard of someone that doesn't have the power. On the other hand, compared to the standard of every single attack hitting, the 40% resistance power actually offers a (100% - 50% * (1 - 0.4) ) = 70% benefit - because someone with only that power would, in fact, only see that much damage. There's no way to separate the inherent critter accuracy benefit from the resistance power. Doing so invalidates comparisons.
If we are going to say Defense X has net benefit of PowerBenefit + InherentPlayerBenefit, then we have to say the same thing for Resistance powers, or we can't compare apples to apples. But then, if we try to combine them, to see what the benefit of having both is, we end up double counting the InherentPlayerBenefit. This basic error has fouled up many a calculation in the past.
Bottom line: If you factor base tohit into only Defense, then you can't compare Defense and Resistance. If you factor them into both, you can't combine them. The only time this is generally a good idea is when you are calculating net damage, and aren't going to compare the mitigation numbers directly at all.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, here's the scoop.
Heal Self is not affected by AT Mods directly any longer. I'm not certain when this changed, but it was before 9/21/2004. The Heal Self Table is now a straight 10% of the AT's base (unbuffed) Health. So, Tankers still see a greater effect from a Heal Self of even scale than a Blaster or Defender because their base health is higher.
So, these values ARE correct.
[ QUOTE ]
A level 30 Tanker using an unenhanced Healing Flames gets 178.5 health. With 2 SO's, that would increase to 296.31. 178.5 is 17.5% of a Tankers health at that level. 296.31 is 29% of a Tankers health at that level.
[/ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok fire being the only tank set which does not get the added bonus of increased health this is ok somehow?
I'm confused, and that's a good indication I'm wrong about something.... so to clarify
[ QUOTE ]
Bottom line: If you factor base tohit into only Defense, then you can't compare Defense and Resistance. If you factor them into both, you can't combine them. The only time this is generally a good idea is when you are calculating net damage, and aren't going to compare the mitigation numbers directly at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, if I get you right, you are saying that if I say 25% defense is like 75% mitigation, I can't compare that with 50% resistance, unless I include the tohit, which makes that 75% as well, but if I do that, I can't obviously say .25 * .25 = my combined number.
If I got you right, I don't think I was doing that, I was puting the tohit into just my defense, then combining it with the resistance through multiplication to get my overall mitigation. (i.e. (.5 - .25) * .5 = new number)).
But I'm not sure if you were address me, or star, or just in general. You quoted me, so I'm not sure if there was a mistake I was making that you were addressing or what. My mention of squishies having 50% mitigation was in relation to my other numbers that had tohit figured in too, but I dunno.
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, here's the scoop.
Heal Self is not affected by AT Mods directly any longer.
[/ QUOTE ]
If I'm reading this right you're saying: when that modifier got removed, the effectiveness of the power was reduced.
Was that an intended change to the power? Or are we seeing a power that's been reduced as a side-effect of a code change, and should now be boosted back to it's previous level?
[ QUOTE ]
YAY- no nerf!
Not yet anyway
[/ QUOTE ]
How do you see a removal of the AT mod, and thus a reduction in the healing amount of the power as "no nerf"?
Because the nerf slipped in a while ago?
Castle, as it stands now, Aid Self is superior to Healing Flames.
Using a level 40 Tanker with 1700 Hit Points as an example:
Healing Flames slotted with 3 Heal SOs and 3 Recharge SOs yields a heal of 582 available every 30 seconds.
Aid Self slotted with 2 Interrupt Reduction SOs, 3 Heal SOs, and 1 Recharge SO yields a heal of 651 available every 15 seconds.
Pretty significant difference. To further illustrate how underpowered Healing Flames is at its current level of effectiveness, let's look at what happens in a 5 minute period where the Tanker is fighting for his life, and using his heal as soon as it recharges.
Healing Flames will heal a total of 5820 HP over the duration, for an average of 19.4 healed per second.
Aid Self will heal a total of 13020 HP over the duration, for an average of 43.4 healed per second.
Now, as we all know, Aid Self is an interruptible power. However, in my testing, 2 Interrupt Reduction SOs makes the interrupt window negligible, provided you don't try to activate the power while moving. It is even able to activate between the ticks of many DoTs. But for the sake of fairness, I'll run the same scenario with Aid Self's activation being interrupted 4 times.
Total healing in 5 minutes is 10416 HP, or an average of 34.72 per second. Still nearly double what Healing Flames can achieve.
The old Healing Flames with the nonbroken AT modifier came much closer, with an ability to heal 8840 HP over a 5 minute period.
Fiery Aura's relatively low resistance has always been explained as a balance to its high damage output and excellent ability to retroactively mitigate damage. The damage output no longer exists, so we really need a strong healing ability to survive. The set as it sits now ranks dead last for survivability in most situations, and with Defense getting fixed next Issue, the gap is only going to grow. Buffing the base value of Healing Flames would do a great deal to alleviate that. I'm not going to attempt the math for calculating Time To Survive, but my gut feeling is that Healing Flames needs a base value right around the 30% mark for Fiery Aura to achieve parity with the other Tanker sets.
[ QUOTE ]
Healing Flames slotted with 3 Heal SOs and 3 Recharge SOs yields a heal of 582 available every 30 seconds.
Aid Self slotted with 2 Interrupt Reduction SOs, 3 Heal SOs, and 1 Recharge SO yields a heal of 651 available every 15 seconds.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow. I hate fire tanks in general (still sour from the i4 days when they made all my hereos obsolete 
), but that's messed up.
Can anyone pull this same comparison for all the other tanks and scrapps self heals?
just to add my 2 cents as a lvl 50 fire tank..
please help healing flames
You know you forgot to mention the boost that dull pain, hoarfrost and earth's embrace just got with heal enhancements adding to max as well as increasing heal. Along with the defense boost that is coming fire tanks are only tank not getting a buff.
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, here's the scoop.
Heal Self is not affected by AT Mods directly any longer. I'm not certain when this changed, but it was before 9/21/2004. The Heal Self Table is now a straight 10% of the AT's base (unbuffed) Health. So, Tankers still see a greater effect from a Heal Self of even scale than a Blaster or Defender because their base health is higher.
So, these values ARE correct.
[ QUOTE ]
A level 30 Tanker using an unenhanced Healing Flames gets 178.5 health. With 2 SO's, that would increase to 296.31. 178.5 is 17.5% of a Tankers health at that level. 296.31 is 29% of a Tankers health at that level.
[/ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]
Er... anyone see a problem here?
Level 30 Fire Tanker :
1275.88 base health, self-heal modifier of 127.588
Healing Flames provides 178.5 health. Base scalar is ~1.4. Base Recharge is 60 seconds, animation time is somewhere around 3.3 seconds.
Level 50 Regen Scrapper :
1338.62 base health, self-heal modifier of 133.862
Reconstruction provides 334.66 health. Base scalar is 2.5.
Base Recharge is 60 seconds, animation time is around 1 second.
Endurance cost for both powers is the same, at ~10 endo. Resistances seem to favor Reconstruction, but I don't have the most perfect testing for this.
Now, we know from Flash Arrow/Smoke/Smoke Grenade that powers don't actually get a base scalar bonus or penalty regardless of things like archetype or other powers of damage mitigation, and seldom get a bonus due to animation time.
So, why's Healing Flame have a penalty to its heal value?
I know you can't change balance decisions, _Castle_, but can you please either bring it up with Geko or show us the relevant parts of the formula which decide the heal scalar for these two powers?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, here's the scoop.
Heal Self is not affected by AT Mods directly any longer. I'm not certain when this changed, but it was before 9/21/2004. The Heal Self Table is now a straight 10% of the AT's base (unbuffed) Health. So, Tankers still see a greater effect from a Heal Self of even scale than a Blaster or Defender because their base health is higher.
So, these values ARE correct.
[ QUOTE ]
A level 30 Tanker using an unenhanced Healing Flames gets 178.5 health. With 2 SO's, that would increase to 296.31. 178.5 is 17.5% of a Tankers health at that level. 296.31 is 29% of a Tankers health at that level.
[/ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]
I have not tested Aid Self, but i have tested and analyzed Reconstruction vs Healing Flames.
They do not yield a better benefit to the tanker for having higher HP, actually, they give the exact same benefit to both, as 25% of a scrapper base HP is 17.5% of a tanker's base hp.
I have also not tested it personaly but i have been confirmed by various peacebringers their self heal in dwarf form actually gives then 25% of their dwarf form hp.
So, bug or no bug, changed or not changed, will it remain at 17.5%? Do you actually think its right for it to be so?
[/ QUOTE ]
Somthing is out of whack. PB's Reform Essence and White Dwarf Sublimation, Regen/Reconstruction heal a 25% of base Health every 60 secs. DarK Melee/Siphon Life, Warshade Essence Drain and Black Dwarf's (Drain) attack heal 10%(?) of Base Health every 15 seconds. That's seems to be consistent accord powers and ATs. 25% for Self-Heal and 10% for a Drain type attack.
I seem to recall of my observations that Healing Flames healed a min. of 25% of Health. And Fire Tanks friend of mine had remarks about the difference in Healing Flame between the past and now. Something seems to have changed recently. And much later then Sept 2004 at that.
Note: And in regards to the Kheldian Dwarves and Healing. AFter I4, Dwarf's Health was boosted to Base Tanker Health levels while in Dwarf form. (Before I4, Healing was 25% and 10% respectly for White and Black Dwarfs). But the Healing powers weren't changed to reflect the increased Health. We didn't know if it was intended or a bug. It turned out to be a bug and was eventually fixed. Respite type Inspirations are still bugged. They only heal based on the human form HEalth and not the Dwarf form Health.
Assuming the same level 40 Tanker with 1700 base HP, Dull Pain, Earth's Embrace, and Hoarfrost yield a heal of 1341 available every 182 seconds for an average of 7.36 HP per second. Of course, that average is not truly correct since the 60% HP boost increases regeneration by quite a bit.
Reconstruction and the PB and WS heals have already been discussed here, but Dark Armor has a very significant heal, as well. Dark Regeneration with 1 Accuracy SO, 3 End Redux SOs, and 2 Heal SOs yields a 52% heal per mob hit with it available every 30 seconds. Substitute a Recharge SO for a Heal SO and it goes to a 41% per mob hit heal up every 21.6 seconds.
Don't forget that the hp boost from the dull pains also makes aid self work that much better.
I just hope that the devs don't read this and decide to nerf aid self instead of boosting healing flames
The thought had crossed my mind. Too often in this game, they blunt the sharp knife instead of sharpening the dull knife.
[ QUOTE ]
I seem to recall of my observations that Healing Flames healed a min. of 25% of Health. And Fire Tanks friend of mine had remarks about the difference in Healing Flame between the past and now. Something seems to have changed recently. And much later then Sept 2004 at that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nah, while everyone has been saying it was on I5 that it got messed i have been constantly telling i think it has been this way almost forever. Its just after I5 that people start noticing the issue since ED took everything down to a point where every bit of power is now required, forcing even the casual players to min max builds and bump into this issue really fast. So its not something that resent, its just something that we trully feel we need fixed now.
[ QUOTE ]
Don't forget that the hp boost from the dull pains also makes aid self work that much better.
I just hope that the devs don't read this and decide to nerf aid self instead of boosting healing flames
[/ QUOTE ]
Unless Aid Self works diferently, all self heals work of your pure base. You can test this on a regen scrapper easily by activating dull pain and then using recontruction, you will see how the ammount healed back is the same as if you used whithout dull pain.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Healing Flames slotted with 3 Heal SOs and 3 Recharge SOs yields a heal of 582 available every 30 seconds.
Aid Self slotted with 2 Interrupt Reduction SOs, 3 Heal SOs, and 1 Recharge SO yields a heal of 651 available every 15 seconds.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow. I hate fire tanks in general (still sour from the i4 days when they made all my hereos obsolete ), but that's messed up.
Can anyone pull this same comparison for all the other tanks and scrapps self heals?
[/ QUOTE ]
With proper sloting and, pool powers and no regeneration powers:
Brutes of 1.4
Scrappers of 1.25
Stalkers of .95
Tankers
Fire tankers heal 1.105 * 1.75 = 1.93375 hp per second
Invuln, ice & stone heal 0.422 * 1.75 = 0.7385 hp per second
Brutes
Fire heal 1.105 * 1.4 = 1.547 hp per second
Invuln & Stone heal 0.422 * 1.4 = .5908% hp per second
Scrappers
Invuln heal 0.422 * 1.25 = .5275 hp per second
Regen heal 2.005 * 1.25 = 2.50625 hp per second
Stalkers
Ninjitsu heal 1.583 *.95 = 1.50385 hp per second
Regen heal 2.005 * .95 = 1.90475 hp per second
I do have to say, note that it matters not much how much one power compares to others in other sets because other powers in this set may actually give such a high benefit that thigns do are balanced.
Unfortunately fire tankers are geting the short end of the stick on every aspect since the combination of all it's powers end up being sub par to other sets. I sugested a simple change to Consume earlier, to make it similar to energy drain, that would make set it in line with fire and ice sets. I posted it on this same thread.
[ QUOTE ]
Don't forget that the hp boost from the dull pains also makes aid self work that much better.
I just hope that the devs don't read this and decide to nerf aid self instead of boosting healing flames
[/ QUOTE ]
We already had that out. Castle said they'll leave Aid Self alone even though he acknowledged that the recharge was much better than they thought it should be. As for the unfairness to the primaries and secondaries with self heals, that's ok because we can take Aid Self too and those heals are cheaper.
That's what we were told.
In my opinion, Burn covered up the fact that Fire tanks were broken for far too long. No one cared because they had their PL tool, but the set is not an adequate tank without heavy support and you would be better off with a DA or Regen Scrapper (See Arcanaville's excellent analysis on the Scrapper boards).
I used to think that small changes could do it, but the more I think about it, the more I think that Fire needs several powers to change to be able to tank sufficiently.
WHAT I WOULD DO TO FIRE ARMOR
Fire Shield - Remove Disorient protection - remainder unchanged
Blazing Aura - Unchanged
Healing Flames - Lower animation time; make a 25% base heal
Temperature Protection - Becomes a click, keeps the fire and cold resists (which don't figure highly into survivability) and adds standard Tanker protection to Hold, Sleep, Immobilize, Disorient and KB
Consume - Damage lowered to about 1/2 of a brawl, recharge reduced to 120 sec.
Still worse than Energy Absorbtion.
Plasma Shield - The only change is that the Hold and Sleep resists would be removed.
Burn(ing Aura) - Burn goes away as the limited pet and become a melee defense 5%; and melee ranged -acc debuff like Smoke.
Firey embrace - Unchanged
RoTP - Unchanged.
Well I can dream can't I. 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Ok, here's the scoop.
Heal Self is not affected by AT Mods directly any longer. I'm not certain when this changed, but it was before 9/21/2004. The Heal Self Table is now a straight 10% of the AT's base (unbuffed) Health. So, Tankers still see a greater effect from a Heal Self of even scale than a Blaster or Defender because their base health is higher.
So, these values ARE correct.
[ QUOTE ]
A level 30 Tanker using an unenhanced Healing Flames gets 178.5 health. With 2 SO's, that would increase to 296.31. 178.5 is 17.5% of a Tankers health at that level. 296.31 is 29% of a Tankers health at that level.
[/ QUOTE ]