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I think Defender Primaries really need to be rethought in how they relate to the other "buffing" archtypes.
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Alas, that great city.
Keep in mind, Defenders are the most balanced AT, as you yourself pointed out. Meaning I see massive nerfs heading towards any other AT out there, if Defenders are the yardstick by which they're being measured.
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
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I'm a bit puzzled by this apparent swap in defender/controller shared abilities. Initially we were told that Controler Secondaries were 80% as effective as the corresponding defender primaries. There was nothing about differentiating debuffs and controls. Now that whatever system of balance was set up determined that actually controllers have equal effectivness in most areas and even more effectiveness in some.
I share the sentiments on questioning the need for defenders in light of controllers effectiveness. Why not just eliminate all the defender sets save for dark?
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This is something that's become increasingly apparent over time - every AT has multipliers for:
Buffs/debuffs/heals
Control
Damage
Defense
And these multipliers apply whether the power is in the primary or secondary. Primaries and secondaries define, in broad strokes, what the AT does with those powersets, but a controller with a hold in a secondary will do better because all holds the controller has works off the same multiplier.
This doesn't really justify that some defender primary powers are not better than controller secondary counterparts. I mean, if you take Electrical Blast, you can see that defenders drain more end than blasters. However, you can also see that Electrical Blast is more powerful for blasters because they do far more damage. Ideally, while certain traits of defender primary powers may be inferior to the controller counterparts, the defender powers should be overall superior to the controller versions.
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Actually, the way he and others described it, Psi sounds like it's kind of up there with lethal and smashing as a very resisted set. Maybe not as bad as lethal in particular, but very close, imho. And given the low damage Defenders do already, that's a big problem. I mean, I complain about lethal damage being halved with 100% Blaster damage. With your damage being cut down that much with 66% Blaster damage... well... ouch basically! This should get looked into, imho.
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i totally agree that psy could use a look but after playing a few lethal dmg sets all the way up and reading about TA fenders complaints about their predominantly lethal dmg, I guess I find it hard to believe that psy is that resisted.
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It isn't resisted in as many mobs. In every mob that does resist it though, it is at a 50% value. It's obscene. Really, it's just sick. The only place where you don't run into these resistances are in the early levels when the set really sucks or a defender is busy taking primary powers to get their bread and butter up and going. So, Psi gets the shaft, almost everywhere and always hard. Lethal gets it everywhere but not usually hard.
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Ideally, while certain traits of defender primary powers may be inferior to the controller counterparts, the defender powers should be overall superior to the controller versions.
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Exactly, and I think the developers know it but are not sure how to approach the issue. Especially with Trick Arrow, it makes a much better Mastermind or Controller secondary than it does a Defender Primary that it is rediculous.
Why are controllers better using some powers that are from a defender powerset regardless of their actual effects? Ther DEFENDER primaries, NOT controller primaries. im not sure, but i dont think any other at runs intot his problem like we do. With blasters their main funcion is to do damage. So the sets we share with them do less damage than theirs. For tankers their main purpose is to take damage, so scrappers shared sets are weaker than the tanks versions. But with defenders, we dont ahve any one specific abiltiy. Sure you could say buff/debuff, but our powersets are so much mroe varied than that. Its not about the specific effects in the sets, but the sets as a whole. And the whole knockback thing is complete bull, especially when you think about a set like ff where kb is so heavy a feature. SUre its not a debuff in the technical sense, but it is very much a defender ability in that its a "soft" control power. Keep the mobs occupied and they do less damage. Thats debuff-like!
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
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I'm a bit puzzled by this apparent swap in defender/controller shared abilities. Initially we were told that Controler Secondaries were 80% as effective as the corresponding defender primaries. There was nothing about differentiating debuffs and controls. Now that whatever system of balance was set up determined that actually controllers have equal effectivness in most areas and even more effectiveness in some.
I share the sentiments on questioning the need for defenders in light of controllers effectiveness. Why not just eliminate all the defender sets save for dark?
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This is something that's become increasingly apparent over time - every AT has multipliers for:
Buffs/debuffs/heals
Control
Damage
Defense
And these multipliers apply whether the power is in the primary or secondary. Primaries and secondaries define, in broad strokes, what the AT does with those powersets, but a controller with a hold in a secondary will do better because all holds the controller has works off the same multiplier.
This doesn't really justify that some defender primary powers are better than controller secondary counterparts. I mean, if you take Electrical Blast, you can see that defenders drain more end than blasters. However, you can also see that Electrical Blast is more powerful for blasters because they do far more damage. Ideally, while certain traits of defender primary powers may be inferior to the controller counterparts, the defender powers should be overall superior to the controller versions.
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Don't forget damage ranges. People keep forgetting Blasters have a different melee/range damage scale. Khelds are just goofy all around 
I'm just really sad for Lunar Arrow. Force Field is stronger for controllers, Archery is stronger for Blasters. Combined I don't really do anything...
Thanks for the response _Castle_. It's been a long time since the devs have just come out and explained things this directly and honestly, and that's what gave them such a great reputation to begin with. Appreciate the response, even if I'm told my character is simply worse by design 
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"Actually, the math shows Controllers being slightly more effective with this power compared to Defenders. Since it is a Control power, that is by Design."
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I do have one serious question based on the above quote.
Lets say all this is correct and the devs reasoning are flawless, if that is the case then why did they give defenders so many powers that are pure or mainly cc if they were never supposed to be that good at it to begin with. Why did they make four defender primaries (ff, Dark, Archery and Storm) resemble controllers if defenders were never supposed to blur that much to begin with in regards to very light cc and were bound to have many of the powers in their primary sets cut lower then even a controllers secondaries. At some point in time, it had to be intention on their part or they never would have made these classes the way they were to begin with and given them to defenders.
And I am with the others, I have always saw slows as debuffs since they DEBUFF speed and recharge.
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Why are controllers better using some powers that are from a defender powerset regardless of their actual effects? Ther DEFENDER primaries, NOT controller primaries. im not sure, but i dont think any other at runs intot his problem like we do. With blasters their main funcion is to do damage. So the sets we share with them do less damage than theirs. For tankers their main purpose is to take damage, so scrappers shared sets are weaker than the tanks versions. But with defenders, we dont ahve any one specific abiltiy. Sure you could say buff/debuff, but our powersets are so much mroe varied than that. Its not about the specific effects in the sets, but the sets as a whole. And the whole knockback thing is complete bull, especially when you think about a set like ff where kb is so heavy a feature. SUre its not a debuff in the technical sense, but it is very much a defender ability in that its a "soft" control power. Keep the mobs occupied and they do less damage. Thats debuff-like!
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That's the thing, all "debuffing/buffing" sets (I'm including all Defender Primaries, Controller, Corruptor and Master Mind Secondaries) are all set at 100% effectiveness.
Doesn't matter if it is primary or secondary. The only difference is that Defenders get a 125% out of buff/debuffs.
But Controllers get a 125% out of all *control* abilities by default too.
Master Minds and Corruptors are as good at debuffing as Controllers and as good at mezzing as Defenders...
Even though *only* Defenders get these sets as primaries.
And this is the only powersets that aren't scaled between 66%-85% effectiveness as secondaries.
Can you imagine the screaming that Tankers and Scrappers would be yelling if the only difference between their sets is that 1/3 to 1/2 of the powers has a 25% bonus based on their AT?
And I'm sure I could hear Blasters scream about Defenders that could do 100% damage compared to their 125% damage.
Still here, even after all this time!
It's a disturbing rationalization to read: that Controllers are permitted to use many Defender powers more effectively as secondaries than Defenders can as primaries purely by virtue of the fact that they are Controllers. The difference in effectiveness in even the more team-oriented sets used by both is minimal enough even at the baseline, and some Defenders face the idea that they may arguably be less effective users of their own primaries than another Archetype.
Controllers meanwhile benefit from a primary and secondary which combine their effectiveness together to control and debuff enemies while buffing themselves and teammates, with significant damage from pets and a few standout powers which is further augmented by the debuffing and by Containment. Certain Controller builds thus seem perilously close to one-man bands, upstaging the effectiveness of other Archetypes and seeming particularly dominant in PvP combat.
The Controller concept is as follows:
The Controller is at the same time the weakest and yet the most powerful of the archetypes. The Controller has few offensive attacks and possesses the fewest hit points. But the Controller has access to a range of powers that no one else has: the Control power sets. Armed with these powers, a Controller can affect the behavior of villains - from freezing them in place to routing them away. Armed with such abilities, the Controller is the backbone of many groups involved in large-scale battles - but the Controller depends upon his teammates for protection.
Hit Points: Low
Damage: Low
Primary Power Category - Control
Secondary Power Category - Buff
The "Low" hit points are much less of a vulnerability when they get an entire buff set as a secondary, and when that secondary is not uniformly inferior to its use as a Defender primary, and particularly when their entire primary serves as highly effective damage mitigation. The "Low" damage isn't low at all when augmented by the buffs and debuffs available in secondaries--and by Containment, especially with its 3x (!) PvP damage.
Where am I going with all this? Controllers outcontrol Defenders, but also outdamage them (I believe significantly, especially in PvP), are arguably as survivable or more survivable, and at most are only slightly less effective in their use of the very same buff/debuff powersets (and in some situations, they are more effective with those same powersets).
The above description makes it seem as if Controllers were supposed to be as fragile as Defenders or even more so, as low-damage as Defenders or even more so, made them seem as if their primary was vastly more defining than their secondary in the way they played, and ultimately suggests they were supposed to have been as team-dependent as a Defender or more so. I don't believe that any of this has been made true in the game as it stands, and Controllers are, almost without exception, notably more effective both solo and in teams than Defenders are.
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* Bug: Detention Field's Immobilization effect is easily resisted. (Rigel_Kent)
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There isn't much that can be done about this.
[/ QUOTE ]Could you look at increasing the magnitude of the immobilize? It's bad enough that enemies are standing still with a nigh invisible intangible effect on them in the back - it's really frustrating to have an enemy with a nearly invisible intangible effect running around mingling with other mobs randomly.
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* Balance: Currently the last three powers in the FF set are highly situational and generate a great deal of aggro, all of which is drawn on to the least defended member of the team -- the FF Defender. (Telok)
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Drawing Aggro only applies in Teams. If you are teaming, try to get someone with Taunt to be on your team. So long as you aren't hunting +4's, Taunt should last long enough to mitigate this. As far as situational, that is by design.
[/ QUOTE ]I'm sorry, Castle, but this isn't acceptable. You are, in essence, saying that while in other ways you support a variety of teams, a FF Defender, in order to use a large portion of their toolkit, is required to find a Tanker with Taunt to be on the group. That seems unusually contrary to the flexibility philosophy as seen in action.
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Detention Field has the exact same effect for Controllers as Defenders.
Repulsion Field has the exact same effect for Controllers as Defenders.
Force Bubble has the exact same effect for Controllers as Defenders.
[/ QUOTE ]..the math shows Controllers being slightly more effective with this power compared to Defenders.
Controllers have the same modifier as Defenders for this.
Controllers have the same modifier as Defenders for this.
[/ QUOTE ]I think the problem here is that people get a bit peeved when an AT is as effective or more effective when using powers AS A SECONDARY than they are AS A PRIMARY, especially when they don't have a corresponding nod.
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* Balance: Repulsion Bomb
[/ QUOTE ]The knockback portion is the same. The Damage is higher for Defenders. The Stun lasts longer for Controllers.
[/ QUOTE ]Powers with damage in that class, essentially, only do damage as a mechanism of incurring appropriate amounts of aggro. They are not meaningful as damage powers. An increase in a negligible damage is not a significant increase. A penalty in the primary effect of the power, however, is rather insulting.[ QUOTE ]
No other Defender set provides the level of Defense as a Force Field Defender.
[/ QUOTE ]I beg to disagree. I regularly mitigate more damage than Force Field defenders can/do without using heals with other powersets. [ QUOTE ]
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* PvP: Knockback suppressed players, or players with knockback resistance, can stand near a Repulsion Field for a long time without ill effect, draining the Defender of endurance.
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This is by design. It is to prevent Repel from locking enemies in a corner.
[/ QUOTE ]The problem here is not the inability to knock the foe back, but rather the fact that the enemy can flatline the Defender's endurance merely through proximity. This is because the extra endurance cost hits the one using the repel power each tick, but the power fails to mitigate against it's own endurance drain when used on a knockback resistant target. Picture Force Boy stepping into the battle, 'Stand back' he calls and leaps into the fray, the next panel shows thugs being hurled from him, but the wily villain simply settles onto his feet with his acrobatic skills and steps forward.. Next panel, Force Boy is seen gasping for breath, not from any attack but MERELY BECAUSE THE VILLAIN IS STANDING NEAR HIM. [ QUOTE ]
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Balance: Archery seems underpowered in solo due to low base damage compared to other sets, largely due to animation times and reliance on lethal damage.
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Archery has long animations so that it looksas good as possible while trying to keep the set playable.
[/ QUOTE ]I wouldn't mind the animation times if the resulting attack had enough effect to make it worth it. As it stands, it does not, my Storm/Archery was severely outdamaged by a Storm/Electric, and my archer is in no way deficient in damage output, nor was the electric noticably more offense-focused. If I am going to have to wait through a 3 second attack animation, I would like the attack to do 3 second animation damage - presently, it feels more like 2 second animation damage instead. The accuracy effect is not enough for me to remove the acc SO, yet one Acc SO brings sets which lack the Archery bonus to a sufficient accuracy that effectively there is only a very minimal difference. The effect really is only usful when fighting enemies that are powerful enough that I would rather not be. It seems to fall to an inconvenient point on a stairstep function, essentially.[ QUOTE ]
While few enemies are especially vunlerable to Mental attacks, comparatively few have defense against it, either.
[/ QUOTE ]However, I would like to note that comparably few enemies have much defense against -anything-, really.. Psy, in PvE, 'feels' like it is defended/resisted against at a similar frequency overall as Energy damage. Robots and enemies with defenses against psi damage are not uncommon, and enemies with defenses against energy, cold, or negative are in no way ubiquitous enough in my experience to double or triple dip the balancing equasion.
A no attack "Group-Friendly" Defender is like a "Team Friendly" basketball player who won't dribble, run, or shoot, under any circumstances. "I'm a PASSER."
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Don't forget damage ranges. People keep forgetting Blasters have a different melee/range damage scale. Khelds are just goofy all around
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I don't think this is entirely true. That is, the engine doesn't really distinguish between melee and ranged attacks. Melee attacks are just attacks with a range of 5 feet.
Blaster melee attacks were boosted in issue 1 or thereabouts, this is true. However, I don't think they're actually on a different scale.
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First, a quick note. Many things I refer to as 'fixed' in this post may be fixed only in I7. It's taken me long enough to go through this list, that I honestly don't know which fixes are in which builds.
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* Bug: Pets (such as Phantom Army) will often attack the Oil Slick target. (Concern)
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This *should* be fixed. Let me know if it is still happening.
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Quick FYI, I can confirm that this is still happening on Live (dunno about Test). A couple of days ago, I was hanging out in portal corps in PI with my illusion/TA controller, waiting for other teammates to travel to the zone. Killing time with self-entertainment, I cast Oil Slick at the feet of another teammate, and then PA. My decoys attacked the Oil Slick, which was amusing because it looked like they were attacking my teammate. 
But yeah, it's still happening on Live.
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Just want to add that +range also does not make Psy balanced. If we were talking about a blaster, +range would be awesome, but for a defender, they would get booted quickly if they stayed all the back at max range where they can no longer use any of their buffs/debuffs/heals or bubbles because they are too far away to reach.
[/ QUOTE ]Have to nitpick here - my /psy Defender gets put on pulling duty pretty often because of that range. However, it is pretty irritating that very quickly, a /psy snipe has shorter range than pretty much any enemy in the game.
A no attack "Group-Friendly" Defender is like a "Team Friendly" basketball player who won't dribble, run, or shoot, under any circumstances. "I'm a PASSER."
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I did a pass on all the End Costs of the Archery Powers and reduced the cost of Snap Shot, Aimed Shot, Fistful of Arrows and Blazing Arrow.
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Oh, please, please, please tell me you did this to the blaster primary, too. I only asked for this on day one of the first public beta test of Archery, after all.
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PSI IS NOT A RARELY RESISTED DAMAGE TYPE. IT IS ONE OF THE MOST RESISTED DAMAGE TYPES IF NOT THE MOST RESISTED IN THE GAME
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i'm pretty sure there are some assault rifle blasters, trick arrow and archery defenders who might want to argue this point with you.
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Actually, my /psy Defender is reduced to tears at facing obscene resists much more often than my /archery Defender is. It's more painful to face one mob with 80% resist to your damage type than to face a couple mobs with 15% resist.
A no attack "Group-Friendly" Defender is like a "Team Friendly" basketball player who won't dribble, run, or shoot, under any circumstances. "I'm a PASSER."
I will add to the choir of praise for Castle. Clearing out old mistakes seems to need it's own department at Cryptic, and I am proposing Castle as chairman!
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* PVP: Hurricane does not debuff the ranged attacks (APP, Claws/Focus) of Scrappers and Tankers as it should. (Stormbringer) It also debuffs the range of Blaster melee attacks to zero. (Soyuz)
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The current system is working as designed. We may eventually get code put in that more adequately handles Melee AT's with Ranged attacks and Ranged ATs using Melee attacks, but it is fairly low on the priority list.
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Although working as designed, the current system was (i believe, please correct me if i'm wrong) introduced as a temporary fix for a coding problem that prevented melee ATs from launching melee attacks against someone using hurricane. The band-aid the devs placed on the boo-boo was simply that hurricane would not debuff ANY attacks from melee ATs--melee or ranged. This overkill was introduced as a temporary fix and has lingered like a bad smell, unfairly penalizing hurricane users against melee ATs in pvp by denying them one of the most useful and defensive secondary effects (-range debuff) of their primary defensive power (hurricane). I repeat, this fix was to be temporary, until the devs could recode the melee attack/hurricane interaction. This issue STILL needs to be addressed.
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Do not forget that the melee attacks of blappers are negated. Actually, I think Hurricane comes out ahead through this bug, as the ranged attacks of melee ATs are generally much less dangerous than the blapper's melee attacks.
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Just want to add that +range also does not make Psy balanced. If we were talking about a blaster, +range would be awesome, but for a defender, they would get booted quickly if they stayed all the back at max range where they can no longer use any of their buffs/debuffs/heals or bubbles because they are too far away to reach. [ QUOTE ]
Have to nitpick here - my /psy Defender gets put on pulling duty pretty often because of that range. However, it is pretty irritating that very quickly, a /psy snipe has shorter range than pretty much any enemy in the game.
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I can see where you are going with this, but that is only one attack in the entire set that the added distance makes a small difference. I can use the normal range in almost any snipe to do the same thing. Castles point as well as the other devs point all along has seemed to be that powers such as even mental blast and subdue are balanced because of the added range to them. This was what I was arguing against, a defender can not capitalize on the added range to their normal attacks in a way to justify everything wrong with the set and use it as an excuse of it being balanced.
Besides, you are talking opening move, I am talking about a defender hanging back beyond the range of the team during the entirety of a battle rather than moving closer to use their buffs/debuffs/heals and bubbles when they might be needed.
I have already thanked Castle for caring for these important issues. Thanks again!
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* Quality of Life: Currently all powers that prevent status effects last between 60 and 90 seconds, making them impractical for team buffing. Is this intended?
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Yes. Things like Clarity and Clear Mind are meant to be used on players as a cure or quick preventative measure for status effects. Maintaining the buff on a full team is not the goal of these powers.
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* Balance: Clear mind's animation (4 seconds) makes prebuffing a large team prohibitive, and using it as a release deadly. (LadyMage)
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See note above.
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In recent updates, the duration of all mez, PvP and PvE, have been reduced. Few mobs put you out of action for more than 5-10 seconds. While this is a long time in a fight, it is not really long enough to make a reactive stance on de-mezzing possible.
In order to un-mez someone, that person has to realize he has been mezzed, report it in the team channel, the un-mezzer has to see it, finish whatever he is doing, select the target, hit the button, and the power needs to activate. Assuming 1 second for each step (Clear mind takes 4 seconds, but assume 1 for the case of the argument), that is a delay of eight seconds. Eight seconds when few mezzes last more than ten?
Add to this that the people who die from being mezzed are meleists, those whose mez resistances were reduced recently. Reactive mez protection is pointless for them, as even 0.1 second of mez will drop their toggles, getting them killed. As they absolutely need enhanced mez protection on larger teams when facing (among others) Malta, these powers have to be used ahead of time.
Changes in the game have made reactive un-mezzing nonviable. Lets accept this, realize that these powers need to be applied beforehand, and increase their durations so they are not a PITA to use. At the moment, these powers are just not worth taking, which in turn makes tanking Malta an impossible task. Yay tanks.
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Although working as designed, the current system was (i believe, please correct me if i'm wrong) introduced as a temporary fix for a coding problem that prevented melee ATs from launching melee attacks against someone using hurricane. The band-aid the devs placed on the boo-boo was simply that hurricane would not debuff ANY attacks from melee ATs--melee or ranged. This overkill was introduced as a temporary fix and has lingered like a bad smell, unfairly penalizing hurricane users against melee ATs in pvp by denying them one of the most useful and defensive secondary effects (-range debuff) of their primary defensive power (hurricane). I repeat, this fix was to be temporary, until the devs could recode the melee attack/hurricane interaction. This issue STILL needs to be addressed.
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You might want to tally up just how many ranged attacks are available to melee characters.
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I'll keep this civil. I'm formally requesting that this be looked again and changed. Basically telling any and all Storm Defenders that they would have been better off as Storm Controllers does not work. And it's too late to pull Storm from the list of Defender Primaries.
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I suppose this is why there is no Storm Summoning in CoV - it is just to hard to make it work. The developers gave up on it.
I have a going theory that it involves summoned effects and Scourge. Storm has both Tornado and Lightning Storm. Elec Blast, which is also 'missing' has Voltaic Sentinel.
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
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I have a going theory that it involves summoned effects and Scourge. Storm has both Tornado and Lightning Storm. Elec Blast, which is also 'missing' has Voltaic Sentinel.
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Ice Blast has both Ice Storm and Blizzard, which are summoned effects that can scourge repeatedly.
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True and true. Also Rain of Fire and I'd assume the Freezing Rain knockoff Cold gets. No idea how Dark Servant works with Scourge. But outside of Blizzard those all do very small increments of damage. A single hit from Rain of Fire is not exactly comparable to a lightning bolt from LS.
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
[ QUOTE ]
True and true. Also Rain of Fire and I'd assume the Freezing Rain knockoff Cold gets. No idea how Dark Servant works with Scourge. But outside of Blizzard those all do very small increments of damage. A single hit from Rain of Fire is not exactly comparable to a lightning bolt from LS.
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However, the damage over time from Rain of Fire is quite impressive. When all the orange numbers and Scourge! popups finally clear from my screen, most everything is nearly dead.
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Actually, the way he and others described it, Psi sounds like it's kind of up there with lethal and smashing as a very resisted set. Maybe not as bad as lethal in particular, but very close, imho. And given the low damage Defenders do already, that's a big problem. I mean, I complain about lethal damage being halved with 100% Blaster damage. With your damage being cut down that much with 66% Blaster damage... well... ouch basically! This should get looked into, imho.
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i totally agree that psy could use a look but after playing a few lethal dmg sets all the way up and reading about TA fenders complaints about their predominantly lethal dmg, I guess I find it hard to believe that psy is that resisted.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
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