[ QUOTE ]
Be it -DAM RES or a personal +DAM of some sort, it effectively makes those sets with a +30% (or more) type damage boost effectively gimpy.
They don't all have to be group beneficial, but FF getting a "focusing lens" single-target bubble that you cast on an enemy that boosts your damage against him (and maybe *only* your damage) would make FF a much more viable soloer.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why not a -def? That'd be thematically correct. Make it massive enough and I'd imagine it'd be especially helpful at lower levels, especially before SOs, say.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Be it -DAM RES or a personal +DAM of some sort, it effectively makes those sets with a +30% (or more) type damage boost effectively gimpy.
They don't all have to be group beneficial, but FF getting a "focusing lens" single-target bubble that you cast on an enemy that boosts your damage against him (and maybe *only* your damage) would make FF a much more viable soloer.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why not a -def? That'd be thematically correct. Make it massive enough and I'd imagine it'd be especially helpful at lower levels, especially before SOs, say.
[/ QUOTE ]
Because a power that is only "good" at low levels has real problems later on.
"Oh, that power? Just respec out of it at level 22 when you get SOs."
I can easily see it now.
Still here, even after all this time!
[ QUOTE ]
Because a power that is only "good" at low levels has real problems later on.
"Oh, that power? Just respec out of it at level 22 when you get SOs."
I can easily see it now.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or the flipside of what happens when a power that's good at low levels becomes slotted with SOs.
This isn't necessarily a bad thing, though. RI, for example, is good at low levels and excellent later on. And if we're talking about a set that needs loving then why not talk options that would be some sweet, sweet loving?
[ QUOTE ]
The +recovery is not meant to increase dps: its simply meant to balance the actual benefit a defensive-oriented defender confers to a team relative to an offensive one.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, in that case it isn't what FF needs. FF needs some way to buff offense to compete w/ the other Defender sets. Without it, FF will always be that awesome set that Controllers and MM use so well. Even if FF gave mitigation that was better than every other Defender primary, FF would still be overall a worse set without some offense-boosting ability.
[ QUOTE ]
Even if FF gave mitigation that was better than every other Defender primary, FF would still be overall a worse set without some offense-boosting ability.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm unclear as to why. Or rather, what that seems to imply is that all defender primaries have to have basically the same amount of offensive benefit, because that's by so wide a margin the most important benefit, that no amount of defensive benefit can overcome an offensive lag.
But if they all have roughly the same amount of offensive benefit, they have to have the same amount of defensive benefit as well, or else there will be a marked defensive imbalance. They'd all have to provide, in possibly different ways, basically the same benefit. That seems to be an extreme point of view.
Or is it that *any* offensive boosting capability, however small, is somehow critical to the viability of the FF set for defenders. If so - if the issue is its mere presence, and not its relative equality with the other sets - I'm genuinely curious to know what the rationale is.
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even if FF gave mitigation that was better than every other Defender primary, FF would still be overall a worse set without some offense-boosting ability.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm unclear as to why. Or rather, what that seems to imply is that all defender primaries have to have basically the same amount of offensive benefit, because that's by so wide a margin the most important benefit, that no amount of defensive benefit can overcome an offensive lag.
But if they all have roughly the same amount of offensive benefit, they have to have the same amount of defensive benefit as well, or else there will be a marked defensive imbalance. They'd all have to provide, in possibly different ways, basically the same benefit. That seems to be an extreme point of view.
Or is it that *any* offensive boosting capability, however small, is somehow critical to the viability of the FF set for defenders. If so - if the issue is its mere presence, and not its relative equality with the other sets - I'm genuinely curious to know what the rationale is.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except for the mezz protection (which Sonic kind of shares) defensively, Force Fields *isn't* that much better. And with no offensive ability (and too many knockback effects) you get a power set that most people only take four powers or only use four powers most of the time.
And as Sonic has the same thing *plus* an offensive boost, it just doesn't work out fairly.
Still here, even after all this time!
[ QUOTE ]
Its precisely because force bolt does practically no damage that its hard to say it favors anyone on the basis of damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
I wanted to apologise for having made a mistake there; somehow I had gone through the entire thread and come away with the impression that knockback -was- better for controllers than it was for defenders. So I thought the claim of force bolt's arguable equality was especially ludicrous -- when I was the one being ludicrous.
Task Forces shouldn't need 8 people to start ... it's not fun.
Man, this thread makes me sad. Somehow I always suspected defenders were getting shafted. I just never thought it was by design that we get shafted from two directions at once. I'll try to formulate something a little more constructive later. But for now, bleh.
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ya know what i say, i say just get rid of archery or at least give some "special effect" besides extra acc i mean the damage now in pretty sucky, and i also advise improve storm, or delete it too, its not much of a defender power and its incredibly annoyin to tanks, actually my lvl 50 tank got'sa note on him sayin >do not invite unless there is a empath on team and NO STORM SUMONERZ<
Storm is amazing as it is. You simply played with someone who didn't know how to use it and now have an incorrect understanding of how good the set is. Just because one idiot caused a teamwipe with it does not mean the problem is with the powerset. As for the "only join teams with empaths" thing, well, that's not exactly giving you a lot of credibilty posting on defender issues.
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[ QUOTE ]
ya know what i say, i say just get rid of archery or at least give some "special effect" besides extra acc i mean the damage now in pretty sucky, and i also advise improve storm, or delete it too, its not much of a defender power and its incredibly annoyin to tanks, actually my lvl 50 tank got'sa note on him sayin >do not invite unless there is a empath on team and NO STORM SUMONERZ<
[/ QUOTE ]
Tanks who know what they're doing don't have a problem with Storm when played competently. Tanks who explicitly depend on Empaths aren't worth a Stormer's time in the first place; a good Storm renders that kind of tank entirely superfluous.
In short: don't call us. 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ya know what i say, i say just get rid of archery or at least give some "special effect" besides extra acc i mean the damage now in pretty sucky, and i also advise improve storm, or delete it too, its not much of a defender power and its incredibly annoyin to tanks, actually my lvl 50 tank got'sa note on him sayin >do not invite unless there is a empath on team and NO STORM SUMONERZ<
[/ QUOTE ]
Tanks who know what they're doing don't have a problem with Storm when played competently. Tanks who explicitly depend on Empaths aren't worth a Stormer's time in the first place; a good Storm renders that kind of tank entirely superfluous.
In short: don't call us.
[/ QUOTE ]
My Earth/storm teamed with a tank who kept asking for a Emp after their health spent much time in the orange/red area. Did they die? Nope. The only time anybody was killed was based on lack of tactics versus lack of a "healer." We were largely steamrolling those mishes.
Two points:
1. Dang isn't it nice that we were getting shafted both ways "by design." Seriously, though, thanks Castle for actually "manning up" and flat out telling us. I really appreciate candor, especially when it brings bad news.
2. Healing causes brain damage! Y'know the only thing I find more annoying than the stupid lack of balance between controllers and defenders is cries for "heal". The only folks that drop on my teams are those that run out of range of my heal or do something equally stupid like trying to solo a +4 AV, while the rest of the team is fighting tooth and nail with the other 3 spawns "Confidence Man" aggroed on the way in. Besides, don't all the tanker sets have a heal in their primary anyway?
[ QUOTE ]
Storm is amazing as it is. You simply played with someone who didn't know how to use it and now have an incorrect understanding of how good the set is. Just because one idiot caused a teamwipe with it does not mean the problem is with the powerset. As for the "only join teams with empaths" thing, well, that's not exactly giving you a lot of credibilty posting on defender issues.
[/ QUOTE ]
i still say the defender storm set could use some love...something to distinguish it a bit from the controller set and, in doing so, to distinguish storm defenders from their controller counterparts. as it stands now, i think the biggest distinction is that the defenders are known for scattering mobs whereas the controllers are not.
The only necessary love that storm needs is to fix the bug where hurricane will push a held mob away from the controller, not the hurricane. SO ANNOYING! This bug has been going on for a long long time, I can only hope that it is fixed in I7.
Toons:
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"...and never try that attitude with a Stormy. Storm powers used with malice of forethought are a scary thing to behold." -Jock_Tamson
Okay, we're approaching two full months since the initial post, here. I'm keeping the CDI thread on hiatus til i7 hits test anyway, but there are a few things I'd like to know.
[*]_Castle says : "Looking at the power [slows], your observation is correct. It seems to be by design, though I've added it to my list of things to be reviewed."
Has this been reviewed? If so, what was the result and reasoning? If not, what's the relative schedule of it being looked at (pre-i7, i7-i8, "Soon", post-Second Ice Age, hell freezes over, Monty Python group reforms, pigs fly, Circeus is content with Ice Tankers, "Sometime", when geko makes his PM available again)?
[*]_Castle_ says : "Endurance is paid as part of the casting of the power, which is calculated before any attributes of that power take effect. So, the power system has to pay for the power to go off then the target gets to choose whether or not to accept the Rez attribute. We can't do this without a lot of changes to the system. Well, technically we could, but then you would not be able to slot for Endurance Reduction."
This may be an acceptable outcome if the same coding could be used to refund the recharge timer on the power - in fact, several players brought this up. Recharge is often slotted, while endurance seldom is.
Is such coding reasonable?
[*]_Castle_ says : "Things like Clarity and Clear Mind are meant to be used on players as a cure or quick preventative measure for status effects. Maintaining the buff on a full team is not the goal of these powers. "
Clear Mind's current animation clocks in at 3.1 seconds. This makes the power dangerous if not deadly to use as a cure or quick preventative power. Increase Density has a resistance portion and animates in 2.07 seconds. Clarity is nearly identical to Clear Mind and animates in 1.5 seconds.
The short duration makes sense for a buff used mainly to cure players. The long animation, in a highly reactive set, does not.
[*]_Castle_ says : There isn't much that can be done about this [Detention Field's immobilize].
Can the magnitude of the immobilize, at least, be upped, preferably to the level of Rest?
[*]_Castle_ says : "It [Flash Arrow] is functionally the same power as Controller/Smoke and works identically to that power in terms of effect."
Personal testing shows Smoke and Flash Arrow to have the same or similar base values - a Controller seems to debuff tohit by the same value whether it be with the former power or the later. Comparatively, comparing Ice Arrow against Block of Ice gives a seperate result - the former, even when used as a controller power, takes significantly longer to recharge, has no damage portion, and has no accuracy bonus.
The first example seems to show that there is no powerset distinction for a power : it is only modified by the archetype using it. The second show a power seems to be given a bonus or penalty for being 'outside the set'.
Which is the case?
[*]_Castle_ says : The point you want to make here is that a Controller Secondary power is outperforming a Defender Primary power. We are aware of that and want to correct it at some point in the future.
Given that there are entire Defenders Primaries which work only marginally better as Controller Secondaries (or, in the case of Trick Arrow and Radiation Emission, work better as a Controller secondary), making an entire AT feel invalidated, can we at least get a timeframe estimate for this (pre-i7, i7-i8, "Soon", post-Second Ice Age, hell freezes over, Monty Python group reforms, pigs fly, Circeus is content with Ice Tankers, "Sometime", when geko makes his PM available again)?
[ QUOTE ][*]_Castle says : "Looking at the power [slows], your observation is correct. It seems to be by design, though I've added it to my list of things to be reviewed."
Has this been reviewed? If so, what was the result and reasoning? If not, what's the relative schedule of it being looked at (pre-i7, i7-i8, Soon, post-Second Ice Age, when geko makes his PM available again)?
[/ QUOTE ]
Just wanted to point out the notion that slows are better for controllers "by design" seems to indicate a reveral in direction from the I4 patch notes, which say...
[ QUOTE ][*]Increased Defenders Freezing Rain Slow debuff.
<ul type="square">[*]To make it better than the Controllers version. Defenders increased more.[/list]
[/ QUOTE ]
So, if it's "by design", it's "bey design as of I5 or later".
[ QUOTE ]
Clear Mind's current animation clocks in at 3.1 seconds. This makes the power dangerous if not deadly to use as a cure or quick preventative power.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFE
[ QUOTE ][*]_Castle_ says : The point you want to make here is that a Controller Secondary power is outperforming a Defender Primary power. We are aware of that and want to correct it at some point in the future.
[/ QUOTE ]
Aren't the heals kind of a no-brainer here? Is there some technical reason those can't be lowered to the 80% they should be instead of 88%? Just that and a reversion to I4 design for slow alone would be some pretty significant progress for most sets.
But isn't your last quote the most telling?
"We are aware that many primaries are out performed as controller secondaries and intend on looking at that in the future"
Not, we recognize the problem and have solutions coming in I-7, or I-8, or even "soon", but we'll put it on somebody's white board and after they've done everything else, maybe they'll start thinking about coming up with some solutions, which then will take months to test and code.
Thanks Pilcrow, I had missed that quote having gotten way too disgusted with it about 3/4 of the way through.
Defenders are the baby sitters of lowbies 1-20, when our damage isn't so totally eclipsed by blasters and the 6 lvl difference in primary power availability is actually felt.
And maybe that's "working as designed"
As you know, I don't share you level of dissatisfaction with the curent state of Defenders, but we have common ground in that we think they aren't getting a fair shake now and that needs to be corrected.
[ QUOTE ]
The only necessary love that storm needs is to fix the bug where hurricane will push a held mob away from the controller, not the hurricane. SO ANNOYING! This bug has been going on for a long long time, I can only hope that it is fixed in I7.
[/ QUOTE ]
that egregious bug is unacceptable. but addressing it in no way addresses the lack of distinction between defender primary and controller secondary nor does it speak to the notion that many controller secondary powers outperform defender primaries. my feeling is that this is the issue that needs to be addressed.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[*] Increased Defenders Freezing Rain Slow debuff.
[*] To make it better than the Controllers version. Defenders increased more.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, if it's "by design", it's "bey design as of I5 or later".
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if I'd trust the patch notes. They seem to be maintained by NCSoft, not Cryptic, and as a result seem to be subject to some severe inaccuraries and people thinking that they're working for the best intentions, even if that's not really the case.
EDIT : yes, I'm griping about the NCSoft web team... on their forums. They've got good folks and bad folks, I assume, like everywhere else, but their patch notes so far have really not been too well done.
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[*] Increased Defenders Freezing Rain Slow debuff.
[*] To make it better than the Controllers version. Defenders increased more.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, if it's "by design", it's "bey design as of I5 or later".
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if I'd trust the patch notes. They seem to be maintained by NCSoft, not Cryptic, and as a result seem to be subject to some severe inaccuraries and people thinking that they're working for the best intentions, even if that's not really the case.
EDIT : yes, I'm griping about the NCSoft web team... on their forums. They've got good folks and bad folks, I assume, like everywhere else, but their patch notes so far have really not been too well done.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, Statesman was personally involved in the development of the new "explaining why" patch note explanations for Issue 4. Here's his post about the patch note explanation format on 4/28/05. I4 went live May 4th, about a week later.
Of all the patch notes ever released, the I4 patch notes got the most attention from Statesman (or at least the most attention that he publicly discussed). And that's the patch from which this note was taken.
[ QUOTE ]
actually my lvl 50 tank got'sa note on him sayin >do not invite unless there is a empath on team and NO STORM SUMONERZ<
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm torn.
do I point out that you brought a thread back from "50 days dead"?
Or do I go with the "Gee, Dr Anvil was standing up against +6es for a minute and a half the other day while I watched from the floor" angle? *
Either way, johnny, it's looking bad for you.
*OK, there _was_ a Defender involved. Force Fields, to be precise.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Okay, i7 is now officially on test, and here's what I've yet to find , or have found to not yet be fixed. If you notice otherwise, or have time to test the others (such as Oil Slick's text, or Flash Arrow's perception debuff bug), feel free to comment :
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
* Bug: All disorient powers cause enemies with flight to move away at rapid speeds, even while under its effects. Individual powers with this problem are noted within their sets below. I6 has made this less common, but it still does occur.
[/ QUOTE ]Should be fixed.
[/ QUOTE ]
STILL fecking happening.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quality of Life: Detention Field's graphic needs to be more obvious -- currently teammates can't tell when an enemy is detained and waste attacks on it. Are there any plans to either make the graphic more obvious, or to otherwise make it more difficult to waste attacks on a DF'd enemy?
[/ QUOTE ]This is something that is a good idea. In fact, it is on geko's whiteboard for "when we get to it." Since it is art time, getting something like this done is problematic -- the artists are overbooked already.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good thing the art team had enough time to go over both Force Field and Gravity Control (I wasn't even away of people complaining about Grav Control), but sadly, leaving Detention Field as the exact same shade and size as the rest of the bubbles makes this problem remain.
Make it bright white. Make it opaque. Take the golden bubbles from the Shadow Shard. Take the Sonic Cage animation. But whatever you do, make it noticably different from the other eight bubbles already on the screen.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bug: When Transfusion is fired off on an enemy that is defeated before the power activates, there is no heal, though the animation fires. However, if Twilight Grasp goes off on a dying enemy, it heals the recipients. There are also reports of the same issue occuring if the enemy moves out of Line of Sight during Tranfusion's animation time. (Rigel_Kent adds: To be more technical, this seems to be a problem with all AoE effects generated around the single target of a power. Illusion Control->Blind's AoE mez effect also has this problem; if the Blind damage defeats the target, the AoE mez will not happen. AoE's generated around the user don't have this problem.)
* Bug: When Transference is fired off on an enemy that is defeated before the power activates, there is no endurance regained for those in the AOE, though the animation fires. (Dark Pyroblast)
* Bug: If Fulcrum Shift is fired off on an enemy that is defeated before the power activates, you get the single 50% caster buff, but NOT the 25% effect from the dying mob OR any mobs around him. (Quason)
[/ QUOTE ]I'll put this on the bug list. I think it takes animation time. See above for problems with that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Still occuring, in case the art team thought they fixed it.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bug: When keying up a TA or Archery power that targets an enemy while moving, if you land out of reach of that power (ie. too far away from your target), your character will perform an animation of drawing the bow, though without an arrow and the power will not trigger. Annoying since it locks you in place for the duration of the animation. No other set behaves like this to my knowledge. Keying powers outside of their range only readies them until you move into range for all other sets. (Eisregen)
[/ QUOTE ]
Known issue. It is on our bug list but requires a lot of animation work to fix. It's fairly low on the priority list.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nice to remember that bugs every player experiences with a whole powerset are fairly lower on the priority list...
That said, not fixed.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Balance: Entangling Arrow, a Defender primary power, is less effective than Devices/Web Grenade, which is in a Blaster secondary set.
[/ QUOTE ]
Known issue. The original version of Entangling Arrow was funtionally identical to Web Grenade. This gave the set too many stacking slow abilities. This is one power in the Trick Arrow set that we are looking at improving at some point in the future.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, Entangling did get buffed, but it's still worse than Web Grenade - Web Grenade has the same Immobilize duration, but also has a significantly higher recharge slow. In fact, this is true before you even consider the effect AT modifiers should have.
Web Grenade lasts nearly 12 seconds, and turns the Contaiminated Rebarb Club attack from a 10 second recharge to a 14 second one. WG activates in 1.37 seconds, recharges in four, and costs 7.8 endo.
Entangling Arrow lasts 14.5 seconds. and turns said attack from 10 seconds to a 10.9 second one. It activates in two seconds, has the same recharge, but, thankfully, does cost slightly less, at 5.2 endo.
For those interested, a Defender using Web Grenade would immobilize an enemy for 15 seconds, and slow the attack from 10 to 14 seconds (yes, it's screwed up - Defenders are just as good at recharge debuffs as Blasters are.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bug: Flash Arrow gives a perception debuff. However, when the power is recast from within enemy's normal perception range, the Defender will be spotted, regardless of whether the second Flash arrow hits or misses, and regardless of how much time is left on the first Flash Arrow. (Voiced by Concern, several others)
[/ QUOTE ]
I wasn't able to reproduce this. Is it still happening?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes.
[ QUOTE ]
Regen Scrappers are very difficult to kill for low damage characters. I *was* able to kill one, but it took several minutes, which is a highly unlikely "real"-world situation. This is a more general concern than just with Archery, but it is most visible here. No solution I can discuss, yet.
[/ QUOTE ]
No solution, yet.
[ QUOTE ]
The point you want to make here is that a Controller Secondary power is outperforming a Defender Primary power. We are aware of that and want to correct it at some point in the future.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, and not fixed. In fact, with the changes to Trick Arrow, it's starting to look like Controller Secondary POWERSETS are outperforming their Defender Primary counterparts.
[ QUOTE ]
There is some small hints of this already. Empathy, a more defensive-oriented (healing oriented) set has recovery aura. Radiation, with more offensive punch, has a weaker recovery in AM. Kinetics, which is more offensive-focused, has transference (significant, but situational).
[/ QUOTE ] I think you're on the wrong path here. Kinetics is potentially the most offensive boosting set and probably offers the best endo recovery on top of it. Speed Boost is only slotted for one thing. Transference, properly slotted, can easily keep up with anyone's endurance usage (barring ridiculous builds). In fact it surpases Rec Aura in that it can immediately replace endo on those who have endo crashes from nukes or Elude type of defenses.
As far as the real point of your post, I'll leave that to others.