(note: this post is intended for Positron, _Castle_ and a bunch of hard working FFers who know who they are)
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Force Fields
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Well, I guess this is some sort of response to FF issues.
I've got to say that after all the work my little team of expert FFers and I did for Positron regarding issues with the Powerset this response is entirely underwhelming. If after seeing all those intelligent and creative writeups regarding FF issues, the best we can get is one "it's on the drawing board but low priority" (paraphrased) then I guess we are done.
I'm probably losing my fanboy status with this post, but if this is the best the Devs can do I'm not sure I want to be a fanboy any more. I was a member of the First Boards (no, the VERY first boards - think 2001) a month after the website opened, one of the First One Hundred in Beta and I was the DevTracker - I have always been here... but I'm getting very, very tired.
-SaberCat
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So why are you worrying so much that a Controller can KB a mob as far as you can?
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Because when all you do is knockback and defense, you REALLY want to be the best at it?
Think about it, EG. Pretend every hard mez is a 100% -toHit debuff, and think exactly how FEW enemies you have to hold or disorient to break even.
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But Snow Storm is NOTHING BUT a Slow!
But Thunder Clap is NOTHING BUT a Disorient!
Are you honestly telling the Stormies that THE FUNCTIONAL ENTIRETY of two of their primary powers is simply WORSE than the Controller secondary equivalent?
It would be one thing if it was simply a status COMPONENT that was affected - in that case, I can see a case for Controllers being more status-y than Defenders - but when the Slow or the Stun is the ENTIRE POWER, then you have a seriously out of whack situation.
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The slow and disorient is just a single component. The power has other attributes, such as...
end cost
range / area of effect
recharge speed
animation time
duration (including time a debuff lingers after Snow Storm goes away)
None of those are "effects" of the power, but they are things that could be tweaked in the way Damage is tweaked for some controller/defender shared powers.
If the defender version is supposed to be better, and the disorient is supposed to be greater for Controllers, then defenders need benefits elsewhere to make make our primary powers better overall. If the controller has to get the better disorient, they should not get it for the same cost!
Have you ever played a bubbler against an AV?
Keeping dispersion bubble on an entire team often means being within range of an AV when he goes postal. I've seen more than a few bubblers get nailed by AntiMatter, for instance. That 16% defense a bubbler gets from dispersion is as good as nothing in an AV fight.
I would still rather have a dark defender against an AV. -regen. -resistance. -accuracy. A big AoE heal. A pet that's further stacking -regen, -accuracy ... a pet that's also putting up big green numbers. FF might keep a team safer at the expense of her own safety, minute by minute, but dark miasma is going to make the fight go much, much faster. I don't think many people appreciate how spectacularly good -regen is. But that's a digression.
Besides, it's just freakin' ignorant on the part of some people to distill FF into three powers, ignore the other six, and say,
"just bubl meh i pl u k?"
o_O Where is Sonic Resonance on that list?
What about the hard to see visual effects of the Sonic powers? You can only see Sonic Barrier and Sonic Haven and Sonic Dispersion really well in missions with less light, like the sewers. And only if there aren't other more dominant shields on them, like the Fire Shields from Thermal Corruptors. The same is true for Disruption Field, which emits hazy rings at the feet of the person its anchored to. Nobody actually can tell what the little orange shield icons around the mobs are for, especially when you have someone with Dark Miasma also debuffing damage resistance. Heck, just the regular blasts of powers and AoE splash effects make it hard to tell there are little orange shield icons on all the mobs indicating damage resistance decrease. You also mentioned that they are going to work on Detention Field in the Force Field set, will Sonic Cage also be getting the same treatment? In all honesty it's even less noticable sometimes than Detention Field.
I know you said that the artists are booked solid, but is Sonic Resonance at least on the list? Preferrably at a high spot on the list?
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* Balance: There is only one villian group which has vulnerabilities to psi damage and it's only in the early game when the set is weakest. By the time the set can actually do damage, most villian groups (nemesis, praetorians, Council, Carnies, Malta just to list a few) are not only not vulnerable, but have a high precentage of members with either sizable resists or defense to the entire set, save telekinetic blast, making the set feel underpowered throughout the game. (LadyMage)
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While few enemies are especially vunlerable to Mental attacks, comparatively few have defense against it, either.
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Actually, if you read what they said, youd note that MANY enemies are resistant to it. Psi sucks in PVE.
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While controllers escaberate the situation by actually be *better* with Defender Primary powers, having so many powers in the Primary set that are controllerish that everyone is "good" at very much blurs the distinction between a Defender and a Corruptor/Master Mind.
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And I maintain, that by creating powersets that provide heavy utilization of another AT's functions, this is by design.
Lets look at an Ice Blaster. They get two single-target holds in their primary powerset. If those holds encroach on the level of single-target holds you might find in a Controller's secondary I fail to see the problem.
We have two factors here. What ATs are supposed to be good at, and the relative value of primaries versus secondaries. My stance is that no one should have a primary power that has a single function and is superior at that function in some other AT's secondary powerset. In the worst case the two should be equal. Going back to the Ice Blaster example, no Ice Blaster, even one who has "Controller secondary strength" holds can ever be said to be a better Controller than a real controller, because a real Controller brings far more "control" to the battlefield, and a Controller has holds as a primary.
My vast preference is that implementing this would mean that powers like Thunder Clap would be made better for Defender, but if they're not going to do that then I do think it needs to be made "equally poor" on a Controller so long as it is a secondary set power.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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* PvP: Knockback suppressed players, or players with knockback resistance, can stand near a Repulsion Field for a long time without ill effect, draining the Defender of endurance.
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This is by design. It is to prevent Repel from locking enemies in a corner.
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True. Having Repel be a PvP liability is not worth the protection from Stalkers sneaking up on you.
The simple solution for this would be to make Repel a click power. This negates a lot of the PvP headache it creates for Melee types anyways (like the reason they needed KB suppression in the first place.)
Though the better design may be to leave it as a toggle, reduce it's activation time to 1 second or less, and set a maximum active time (like Phase Shift has) of 1 second. Then it acts like a click power, but still can accept End Cost enhances for the End Drain you would do to yourself, and still turn off after you hit too many targets. (as opposed to, say, coding it like Energy Transfer's -HP effect on each hit.)
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* Bug: When an attack misses its target, aggro is generated when the attack begins. This is problematic when using a power with a long activation time (such as Ice Arrow); aggro is generated and you are subject to "return" fire before the attack is actually launched. The character is rooted in place until the animation finishes. (If the attack actually hits, no aggro is generated until the attack lands; this is when a miss should generate aggro as well). This bug is not limited to the Trick Arrow set, but impacts the set more than others due to its many powers with long animation times. (Concern, Goofy_Parrot)
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This is the way the combat engine works. Fixing this would require rewriting the whole thing. This is not likely to change.
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Translation: We were utterly incompetent from the very beginnign, so screw you, players. Just give us your money and shut up, we're not going to fix this.
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This is the way the combat engine works. Fixing this would require rewriting the whole thing. This is not likely to change.
[/ QUOTE ]Translation: We were utterly incompetent from the very beginnign, so screw you, players. Just give us your money and shut up, we're not going to fix this.
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translatation: i'm a complete ahole.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
I don't suppose we squeezed in Clear Mind not providing any +perception to NPCs in PvP on the Big List o' Things to Review?
Is that working as intended?
Thanks for addressing Defender concerns, _Castle_.
I have three comments I'd like to make.
1. I feel that Defender primaries should always, in general, be superior to Controller secondaries. What we're seeing is that because of AT modifiers, there's many powers where this isn't the case. People really need an incentive to play a Defender over a Controller. There's a reason that I have not rolled another Defender after hitting level 50 (my only one). But I do have two Controllers.
2. Trick Arrow really needs a lot of help, and soon. There's been plenty of discussion on the subject, so I won't elaborate too much. It needs serious buffing, and it's long overdue.
3. Force Field really needs to get reworked. I have a level 43 /FF Controller and a level 33 /FF Mastermind, both of which have FF for concept reasons. I am constantly dissapointed with this set compared to its competition. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 3 slotted Darkest Night or Radiation Infection enough to make enemies miss as much as 3 slotted Deflection/Insulation Shield and 3 slotted Dispersion Bubble? Not to mention that the former provides the same defense to the power's caster as to the team. I don't really feel that Force Field is the master of defense, and if it is, it's not by much. Especially given other sets superior versatility. In the end, it needs more than +def and knockback. Please find ways to integrate some more defender tricks of the trade into this set. Heck, it's so bad you won't even give it to your NPC's as-is. I wish my Force Bolt did that kind of damage!
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* Balance: Snowstorm's recharge debuff is more effective for Controllers than Defenders. ( It appears the defender version is 80% as slowing as the controller version, seems they were reversed. Dark_Pyroblast)
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Controllers AT modifier for Slows is higher than Defenders. I'll talk to geko to make certain this is by design.
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Snowstorm is -recharge and -speed.... all debuff. There's no control in there.
If it is true that defenders are about buff/debuffing and controllers are about status effects, I cannot comprehend why the controller version of snowstorm should be stronger than the defender version.
Thank you for your attention on defender issues. Hopefully this is just the beginning, and not the end of developer focus on addressing defender issues.
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* Bug: Pets (such as Phantom Army) will often attack the Oil Slick target. (Concern)
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This *should* be fixed. Let me know if it is still happening.
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This is still happening. My Singularity was ferociously humping an oil slick target last night. 
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But the big three powers in FF will work twice as well as a Controller or MMs bubbles after I7 against bosses and AVs. After I7, FF Defenders will be able to cap defense to all damage types for their teammates with Manuevers. Controllers and MMs will be able to get them down to 15% or so (which works out to about 22% for AVs and such)
So why are you worrying so much that a Controller can KB a mob as far as you can?
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How about - 'cause KB is the only freakin thing my primary allows me to do that doesn't involve passively standing around.... How about 'cause it would be sorta-kinda-nice if at least half of my powerset did much of anything better than anybody else? How about 'cause FF is already the most over-specialized of all Defender sets, it would be nice if we at *least* got to be the best at both of those tricks.
Nevermind the entirely separate issue of "how many other power sets in the game could take and slot only three powers from their primary and be considered to provide 95% of the utility of the set".
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Have you ever played a bubbler against an AV?
Keeping dispersion bubble on an entire team often means being within range of an AV when he goes postal. I've seen more than a few bubblers get nailed by AntiMatter, for instance. That 16% defense a bubbler gets from dispersion is as good as nothing in an AV fight.
I would still rather have a dark defender against an AV. -regen. -resistance. -accuracy. A big AoE heal. A pet that's further stacking -regen, -accuracy ... a pet that's also putting up big green numbers. FF might keep a team safer at the expense of her own safety, minute by minute, but dark miasma is going to make the fight go much, much faster. I don't think many people appreciate how spectacularly good -regen is. But that's a digression.
Besides, it's just freakin' ignorant on the part of some people to distill FF into three powers, ignore the other six, and say,
"just bubl meh i pl u k?"
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Yes, I've played a bubbler quite often against AVs. It's usually fine. Of Course a few of them you can't keep Dispersion on the whole team.
In I7 that 16% will be pretty darned good against an AV, basically bringing them down to the level of a minion. If you keep a few lucks on hand, you can get that self same AV down to 10% which isn't bad at all.
Dark Defenders and Rad Defenders are better against AVs, but their debuff toggles are a PITA to use with teams who don't know what they are doing. A bubbler's bubbles are working whether you have an anchor or not.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Dark Defenders and Rad Defenders are better against AVs, but their debuff toggles are a PITA to use with teams who don't know what they are doing. A bubbler's bubbles are working whether you have an anchor or not.
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So the primary advantage of FF is that it works better with the unskilled and inexperienced? That's a fair tradeoff for Rad and Darks healing, offensive prowess, utility powers, and ability to protect themselves? Wow. Now that's a great way to sell a set....
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This may have changed without our knowledge, then. It's been known information for a while that, pre-ED, Tar Patch can and did regularly stack. Will attempt to test that power, but it's not exactly easy to find enough Kineticists.
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Ah! Tar Patch is an exception. Well, no, it isn't but it's tricky. A single Tar Patch will not have the Debuff stick with itself. However, multiple Tar Patches, even from the same caster, will stack with one another. This is because each Tar Patch is actually a seperate "source" from the caster, and buffs from multiple sources stack.
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Acid Mortar's -Res debuff will stack with itself (even from the same mortar)
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Dark Defenders and Rad Defenders are better against AVs, but their debuff toggles are a PITA to use with teams who don't know what they are doing. A bubbler's bubbles are working whether you have an anchor or not.
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So the primary advantage of FF is that it works better with the unskilled and inexperienced? That's a fair tradeoff for Rad and Darks healing, offensive prowess, utility powers, and ability to protect themselves? Wow. Now that's a great way to sell a set....
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I think the most distressing thing we've learned here is that our Primary Power sets are not actually better for Defenders, even though we are the best at debuffing. That's because debuffing isn't really the mainstay of all of the power sets.
Even heavy debuffing sets have a fairly large amount of crowd controls that is equaled by anyone else using the power sets or is surpassed by Controllers.
With a (crippled) sub-par secondary damage and no defining "we really are best" at what we do, Defenders are the red-headed step-children of the CoX family.
Still here, even after all this time!
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This may have changed without our knowledge, then. It's been known information for a while that, pre-ED, Tar Patch can and did regularly stack. Will attempt to test that power, but it's not exactly easy to find enough Kineticists.
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Ah! Tar Patch is an exception. Well, no, it isn't but it's tricky. A single Tar Patch will not have the Debuff stick with itself. However, multiple Tar Patches, even from the same caster, will stack with one another. This is because each Tar Patch is actually a seperate "source" from the caster, and buffs from multiple sources stack.
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Acid Mortar's -Res debuff will stack with itself (even from the same mortar)
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We were actually told at one time that debuffs would always stack, buff would not stack from one target.
It seems they want to revise that.
Still here, even after all this time!
Ok, now that I've taken a moment to read and digest the whole post... First, I want to say thanks to Castle for devoting time to investigating the defender issues, and also for getting back to us with a nice long explaination. I really do appreciate the dev's willingness to listen to players in this game.
Now, regarding the issues themselves... I'm seeing some problems:
1) Defenders don't want to be forced into a role of being a buffbot. However the dev attitude is a bit strange to me. On the one hand we're being told "You have all these great situational powers to use, so you *should* be more than buffbots" And on the other hand we're being told "It's by design that controllers use your situational powers better than you do"... "oh, and it's also by design that your damage and debuffing abilities are effectively useless in PvP." What does that leave us with? Pretty much just the role of being buff-bots.
2) There are a lot of things on this list that are "low priority" or "we'll get to it eventually." Some of these issues (like the entire Trick Arrow powerset) have been recognized problems for a long time now. Now I understand that dev resources are limited, and that CoV has been the focus for the past few months. Still, between I7 being mostly CoV content, and comments about some of these CoH issues being low priority, I can't help but wonder how long we'll be waiting.
3) It saddens me to say that I may never roll up another defender... I also may wind up deleting an old storm defender. Let's face it, controllers are better at defending a team (I love my controllers BTW). Controllers are also better at PvP, and since so much of the new content is PvP focused, I guess I'd better keep playing controllers if I want to experience that.
Well, I've been saying for more than a year that FF makes a far better secondary than a primary. It's good to have that confirmed.
Thanks for the response Castle
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Dark Defenders and Rad Defenders are better against AVs, but their debuff toggles are a PITA to use with teams who don't know what they are doing. A bubbler's bubbles are working whether you have an anchor or not.
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So the primary advantage of FF is that it works better with the unskilled and inexperienced? That's a fair tradeoff for Rad and Darks healing, offensive prowess, utility powers, and ability to protect themselves? Wow. Now that's a great way to sell a set....
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I think the most distressing thing we've learned here is that our Primary Power sets are not actually better for Defenders, even though we are the best at debuffing. That's because debuffing isn't really the mainstay of all of the power sets.
Even heavy debuffing sets have a fairly large amount of crowd controls that is equaled by anyone else using the power sets or is surpassed by Controllers.
With a (crippled) sub-par secondary damage and no defining "we really are best" at what we do, Defenders are the red-headed step-children of the CoX family.
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Which is the huge ol' problem for Defenders.
As of now, it's hard to see how any Defender debuff primary is better than a Controller secondary. A Controller's secondary mez effects are better, slows are better, and knockbak is equal. That leaves the accuracy/resistance/-accc/-resist debuffs, and the effective difference between the two is already negligible.
Defenders=Empaths. That's the CoH being presented.
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Defenders=Empaths. That's the CoH being presented.
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And a /Emp controller is still better in PvP 
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As a Bubbler, what it boils down to me is, I only have *4 powers* between my entire primary and secondary that function any better for me than they do for any other AT in the game with access to them (and several other ATs have such access). In return, my entire secondary is inferior in every way to the Blaster equivalent (I am FF/NRG - and we do not get any KB bonus or such with energies secondary effect). And several powers in my primary (Detention, RB) actually function *better* for Controllers than they do for me.
So show me *any other AT in the game* that gets hit like that. I can certainly point to other Defender sets in similar situations (Trick Arrow, Storm Summoning). We Defenders are just "lucky".
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But the big three powers in FF will work twice as well as a Controller or MMs bubbles after I7 against bosses and AVs. After I7, FF Defenders will be able to cap defense to all damage types for their teammates with Manuevers. Controllers and MMs will be able to get them down to 15% or so (which works out to about 22% for AVs and such)
So why are you worrying so much that a Controller can KB a mob as far as you can?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.