Aside from concept, why pick anything over EM?
By
Behold_Gravitas,
Posted on: 2005-12-10 17:03 in Brutes
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Rage is 80% damage buff that is still perma-able in addition it also buffs accuracy. so you need not slot accuracy in the attacks anymore leaveing you more slots to play with.
Also, my milage always seems better when i'm working with attacks that do knockdown as opposed to stun,mez,etc
knockdown they're not attacking you AND they're not superspeeding away either.
Energy Melee is heavy on Mez if i recall. Stone and Strength are heavy on Knockdown
add in the fact that Stone and Strength both have MUCH better AoE attacks (again with lots of knockdown ability and a a higher brawl index rating) and the sets begin to look a bit better.
oh yeah and one more thing. Energy Melee doesn't have a ranged attack. stone and SS both do. slow. but its there.
power isn't always measured in pure DPS.
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Regarding the AOE attacks...
Stone Melee and Energy Melee AOE attacks have the same brawl index with Energy dealing some energy damage. Super Strength's AOE has a higher brawl index but at the same time the recharge timer is much longer then the timer on EM's AOE attack.
Edit: Additionally, I believe the accuracy buff of Rage is only 20-25%. (I would have to double check as I am not sure on this ...)
Second Edit: The COH hero builder claims Rage gives 83% accuracy buff... however I would of sworn that on the Tanker forums it was around the number listed above through various testing by KaliMagelena or whatever her name is.
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Rage's To Hit buff has been quoted as being anywhere from 20% to 80%. Since it is difficult to test adequately, we just don't know for sure. The Damage buff is verified at 80%, which goes a long way to making SS at least the equivalent of EM by itself.
As to the To Hit buff, even at the low end estimate, it can effectively replace 1 ACC in all attacks. On my Tanker, I run perma-Rage with 1 ACC in all attacks & can regularly hit baddies with high DEF, so my in-game experience validates a pretty high To Hit buff.
So while SS might have nothing to match ET, EM has nothing to match Rage. The powersets are reasonably balanced IMHO. Of course if Stone Melee is balanced with non-Rage SS, there might be an argument that Stone lags both SS & EM - but it makes the screen shake! What's more SMASH! than that! 
Liberty
Mister Mass - 50 Inv/SS/NRG Mut Tank [1236]
Doc Willpower - 50 Grav/FF/Psi Mag Controller
Baron Wonder - 50 SS/Elec/Mu Mag Brute
Sound Bight - 50 Son/Son/Mu Tech Corrupter
I personally think each Primary has a very distinctive flavor to it.
Only those who are interested in min/max values will honestly pick a primary or secondary based solely on numbers.
While I can see the appeal of this, I am not and never have been a big fan of min/max. For me how the toon plays and feels is everything since I am going to be spending so much time playing it.
ymmv...
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Smashing damage is very resisted in the end game.
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Not really.
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Agreed, smashing isn't bad at all. I think psi might actually be the worst at the end (robots and carnival resist it).
Unless you spend half your life fighting freaks of course. Like in coh respec. Then energy is clearly better.
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P.S. Does anyone else think that Fire isn't really a SMASH set? I mean come on it's lethal/fire damage heh. Every other brute set has some SMASH ing in it.
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Most of the powers don't seem like it at first... But Cremate, hoo man with the sfx/gfx for the attack that one seems very smashy, and once you get a nice fury chain going one shotting minions with explosive power you start to feel it.
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My title is a little deceiving because I am only going to refer to two primaries versus Energy Melee. (I am NOT going to include Fire or Dark)
Basically, why would someone (Other then concept) pick Super Strength or Stone Melee over Energy Melee?
1) SS/SM both deal smashing damage compared to Energy Melee's Energy/Smashing Damage. Smashing/Lethal damage becomes VERY resisted in the end game. Thus, SS/SM will lose out on DPS as levels progress.
2) Stone Melee/Super Strength both have knockback and Energy has disorient. All the level 8 (Knockoutblow) and 18 (Total Focus/Seismac Smash) have holds. I'd say this evens out. (Although Disorient is sometimes considered "weaker" since enemies behave oddly at times)
3) The Brawl Indexes are almost identical:
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Energy Melee-
Barrage - 0.6944 Smashing * 2 + 0.2500 Energy * 2
Energy Punch - 1.9444 Smashing + 0.8333 Energy
Bone Smasher - 2.7778 Smashing + 1.7778 Energy
Whirling Hands - 1.6667 Smashing + 1.1111 Energy
Stun - 0.4167 Smashing + 0.2778 Energy
Energy Transfer - 4.3333 Smashing + 8.3333 Energy
Total Focus - 2.7778 Smashing + 7.1111 Energy
Stone Melee
Stone Fist - 2.7778 Smashing
Stone Mallet - 4.5556 Smashing
Heavy Mallet - 6.3333 Smashing
Hurl Boulder - 4.5556 Smashing
Tremor - 2.7778 Smashing
Seismic Smash - 9.8889
-Super Strength-
Jab - 1.8889 Smashing
Punch - 2.7778 Smashing
Haymaker - 4.5556 Smashing
Knockout Blow - 9.8889 Smashing
Hurl - 4.5556
Foot Stomp - 3.9444 Smashing
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5) Here are the activation times for each set:
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Barrage 1.3 seconds
Energy Punch .6
Bone Smasher 1.5
Whirling Hands 1.7
Stun 1.8
Energy Transfer 1
Total Focus 3.3
Stone Fist .6
Stone Mallet 1.5
Heavy Stone Mallet 1.5
Fault 2.1
Hurl Boulder 3.8
Tremor 3.3
Seismac Smash 1.5 (Equal to Total Focus in brawl index)
Jab 1.1
Punch 1.2
Haymaker 1.5
Hand Clap 1.2
Knockout Blow 2.2
Hurl 3.8
Foot Stomp 2.1
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Stone Fists is (recharge 4)
Stone Mallet is (recharge 8)
Heavy Mallet is (recharge 12)
Fault is (recharge 20)
Seismic Smash is (recharge 20)
Hurl Bolder is (recharge 8)
Tremor is (recharge 14)
EM
Barrage - 2
Energy Punch - 4
Bone Smasher - 8
Whirling Hands - 14
Total Focus - 20
Stun - 20
Energy Transfer - 20
SS
Jab - 2
Punch - 4
Haymaker - 8
Hand Clap - 30
KO Blow - 25
Hurl - 8
Foot Stomp - 20
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Finally, the endurance costs are the same across the board assuming the brawl index is equal. That means if a power has a brawl index of say 5, the endurance cost is the same as the power with a brawl index of 5 in another set. (NOTE: Only applies to these sets with a few minor exceptions)
Ultimately, I am wanting to know why would anyone choose Super Strength or Stone Melee over Energy Melee? (Concept builds NOT included)
I know SS gets Rage which is a nice power but is it really worth it to sacrifice everything energy gets?
I am really hoping for a response because I cannot see why would anyone choose these two sets.
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duuuuh. Sorry if I sound like a jerkface.... but it's in the slotting. Slot one or two to hit buffs in rage and you have NO accuracy problems. you can remove ACC from your attacks and slot rechargers instead. Or end rdx. My slotting is 2 x rcharge, 3 x dmg, 1 x end rdx. with that you get solid dps.... and then there's the knock DOWN..... not back. Boss fights are a breeze for us super strong types because they end up planted on their butt's 3/4 th's of the battle. EM maybe wins the DPS/DEP battle.... but dude.... super strenght for teh overall win.
I dunno, to go with the question in the subject line...because I enjoy it 
Admittedly I play 'concept' types (SS just *fit* for China Doll, and was perfect for irony's sake, a tiny, slender animated doll who can hit like a tank), and I do admit after playing an Inv/SS tanker for awhile, switching to a SS/Inv brute appealed to me. I'm also far from a min/maxer, esp. since a year's experience with CoH has shown me...what's the perfect build now might be lousy later, while what's 'gimped' now might be teh uber later on! Everybody might be rolling Stone/Stone brutes by issue 9, who knows...
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I'm also far from a min/maxer, esp. since a year's experience with CoH has shown me...what's the perfect build now might be lousy later, while what's 'gimped' now might be teh uber later on! Everybody might be rolling Stone/Stone brutes by issue 9, who knows...
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Well put. I toyed around with EM on one of my brutes, (em/invul) and got him to 17 before i got so damn tired of the PinkPomPoms and BlingBling armor auras that I had to reroll - I wanted my brute to look and be evil.. I definately had fun playing the sets, and rolled EM thinking the high single target dmg would be fun - but it just wasn't as much fun as my DM/EA - arguably a toon that does much much much lower dmg.
The point is that you can drive yourself crazy min/maxing and then getting pissed every time an issue jacks your powers a little bit - or you can play to concept (or just pick what appeals to you aesthetically, conceptually, or whatever) and ride the issue's changes with a shrug and a grin since:
Never min/maxing means almost never sweating an Issue.
the only non-concept reason for me would be the knockdown. i've used other sets that have it and am a big fan of its reliability.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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My HeroStats numbers bear out just how much a set-changing experience finally getting ET is.
Before ET, Death Shroud was my most damaging power (because I try to maximize my AoE's anyway, and DS is always on). After ET, it's not close, ET is far and away my most damaging power. Makes TF look like a joke, damage-wise. In spawns of 3, ET instantly removes one. So DS has 1/3rd less targets. End cost and recharge are low enough that it's there to use a LOT.
Pre-ET I can see how SS might be liked more, but ET makes all the difference. I hope to get to 40 before it gets nerfed. :P
[/ QUOTE ] that is a very long haul to wait did it before with my tank. i think EM=SS for the most part since remember rage adds to all attacks all the time (except that 10 sec downer). whereas EM w/ buildup may pass SS for the first 10 secs of a fight (by about 7% from the math i did). If you look at a fight over 20 secs SS is better. Of course the all s/l dmg makes it worse againsts some oponents but overall i fell the sets are balanced. The next best set imho is dark with SM being so low lvl and excellent dmg and the extreme multi-talented nature of the set it is on par even with the less dmg with SS/EM. Fire and Stone recharge/end cost and even dmg wise(to a lesser extent), need some work to be as effective in the game. YMMV.
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Yes he has 100% resistance
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You are referring to the EoB event, yeah, pretty much. The final version won't.
i think most of us were referring to maurauder, the praetorian version of back alley brawler, who is able to hit a 100+% resistance to smashing/lethal when he activates unstoppable. this was true as recently as issue 5 (the last time i fought him).
Proud captain of BOSS
The Altruist, Lvl 50 (+3) INVUL/SS Tanker
Omega Centauri, Lvl 50 SS/INVUL Brute
The OP is quite true and points out the fact that Melee sets are unbalanced in PvP. Why would you give defense weak sets a smash/lethal shield, but not an elemental/energy shield? Blasters can cap their resistance to Smash/Lethal is slotted right with the correct powers making most of the Melee sets useless in PvP accept for Energy Melee.
This is absolutely ridiculous Devs, and is a gross oversight on your part. Tankers and scrappers have to above and beyond to beat a level 50 blaster, but an EM tanker can do it easily.
Bravo.
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The OP is quite true and points out the fact that Melee sets are unbalanced in PvP. Why would you give defense weak sets a smash/lethal shield, but not an elemental/energy shield? Blasters can cap their resistance to Smash/Lethal is slotted right with the correct powers making most of the Melee sets useless in PvP accept for Energy Melee.
This is absolutely ridiculous Devs, and is a gross oversight on your part. Tankers and scrappers have to above and beyond to beat a level 50 blaster, but an EM tanker can do it easily.
Bravo.
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No blaster can cap their Smashing/Lethal resistance by themselves that I am aware of.
I don't know if anyone's used this response, but I chose SS over EM because I've already been there/done that. I have a lvl 50 Ice/EM Tank. Running through 50 more levels with a powerset I've already used extensively just doesn't seem all that thrilling to me. I like diversity!
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I don't know if anyone's used this response, but I chose SS over EM because I've already been there/done that. I have a lvl 50 Ice/EM Tank. Running through 50 more levels with a powerset I've already used extensively just doesn't seem all that thrilling to me. I like diversity!
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Yeah thats why I didn't choose Dark Melee. I have a 50 Dark Melee/Regen Scrapper and while I LOVE Dark Melee I didn't want to play it again.
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SS is nice cause you get knockout blow so early but i agree that concept would normally be the only reason to chose the other primaries
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Indeeed, the reason I don't include DM or FM is because they have their own reasons to be on par with EM. (DM has NICE utility and FM has some good AE/Fire damage)
Personally, it seems to me that Stone Melee/Super Strength might be underpowered? Unless someone can share their insight who has played EM and SM or EM and SS?
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Without reading the 7 pages (ie I don't care THAT much about this pretty obvious topic) I hope someone also mentioned the PvP aspect of this. That makes the discrepancies between the 3 sets (add Fire as well) HUGE. Bigger than HUGE. HUMONGOUS!
Seriously, an EM Brute vs any type of melee can stack Disorients on top of its less resisted Energy damage so if/when it detoggles a Tank/Brute/Scrapper etc they are screwed. What is comparable with SS and Stone????? I've made this point with a Tanker and my axe. When I finally detoggle an EM tanker my knockback sure as Hell isn't waiting there stacked. Plus his Energy is doing more damage than my smash/lethal can ever hope to dole out. (well, as long as he has the basic armors and isn't some type of very odd build) I'm not calling for nerfs by ANY means - Hell, I have an EM/Fire Brute and like it the way it is. But like so many other things in PvP it isn't even close to being balanced. 
Also, if you think SS is underpowered now you should have seen it pre I3(approx.). It has already gone through a few bumps to bring it to the level it is. That level is now on par with Stone Melee/Axe etc, but still leaves something to be desired to the big dog of Brute/Tanks.
This is all so true about energy. It has too many advantages, especially when it comes to blasters using it. Add to this the unresisted damage which tanks already lost a HUGE portion of post i5-i6. Detoggling, stacked stuns, and knockback, along with no energy resists....WTH...I mean if no one can see the implications of this in PVP, they have got to be blind. Heck I even have a EM brute, and a SS tank, along with other blaster sets. Energy is hands down, along with ice following up there after above the rest. In PvP blasters with these sets chew me up all day long. Not asking for nerfs...but come on.
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Yes he has 100% resistance
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You are referring to the EoB event, yeah, pretty much. The final version won't.
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Thanks Castle I forgot about that.
Although like someone pointed out, I was referring to the Praetorian version.
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This is absolutely ridiculous Devs, and is a gross oversight on your part. Tankers and scrappers have to above and beyond to beat a level 50 blaster, but an EM tanker can do it easily.
Bravo.
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First of all, I think we need a change of thinking. Heroes shouldnt be worrying that much about fighting other heroes. A scrapper or tanker should never really have to go against a blaster, unless it's in the arena for fun. All matters of balance should be heroes vs villains and vise versa. And once again, it should be stressed the PvP and PvE shouldnt affect each other.
'If Champions Online is what "CoH was supposed to be", I'm glad that I have what I have rather than "what it was supposed to be".' - The Alt oholic
"I solo'd Hamidon...but I also totally cheated." - Back Alley Brawler
"It is still early. Someone is going to get stabbed tonight I can feel it." - Ishmael (said in Jello Shooters chat)
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This is all so true about energy. It has too many advantages, especially when it comes to blasters using it. Add to this the unresisted damage which tanks already lost a HUGE portion of post i5-i6. Detoggling, stacked stuns, and knockback, along with no energy resists....WTH...I mean if no one can see the implications of this in PVP, they have got to be blind.
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This is one of the reasons I won't play an energy brute...as I said before, the most popular classes are usually the ones first in line to be whacked with the nerf bat. Ever since SWG, where I watched my MCH/MTKA turn from a powerhouse into panzy***, I have taken to playing the less common classes and types. Nothing is more frustrating than having a load of power then having it taken away. Far better to be lacking and suddenly find yourself beefier one day.
The other reasons? Don't like pompoms. Don't like "hissing." I do like using big stone hammers to SMASH pathetic little mobs with, and I like the SMASH sound effects that go with it. I also like the bodies flying through the air...I find it therapeutic.
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Because, quite simply, not everyone is a min maxer. And they don't worry about such things.
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Yup, this is probably the best response out of them all. I took Super Strength and Dark Armour just cuz it was fun. I like the animations of SS, not to mention it just looks cool with my hoofed Brute
Min Maxing is interesting once, but if you're going to play the game long term, playing for fun and interest is much more, well, fun
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Yes he has 100% resistance
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You are referring to the EoB event, yeah, pretty much. The final version won't.
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I know the pratorian version of this guy has 100% resist to all but psi when he hits unstoppable.
You activate the eagles claw power
You eagles claw back alley brawlerleader for 0 smashing damage
You critical back alley brawlerleader with your eagles claw for an additial 0 lethal damage
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Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Yes he has 100% resistance
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You are referring to the EoB event, yeah, pretty much. The final version won't.
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I know the pratorian version of this guy has 100% resist to all but psi when he hits unstoppable.
You activate the eagles claw power
You eagles claw back alley brawlerleader for 0 smashing damage
You critical back alley brawlerleader with your eagles claw for an additial 0 lethal damage
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No he has only 100% to smashing/lethal. I know because my Illusion/Radiation controller soloed him pre-issue 5.
My energy attacks (Energy EPP) dealt energy damage (albeit very small when he had it going) and the smashing was nullified.
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This is all so true about energy. It has too many advantages, especially when it comes to blasters using it. Add to this the unresisted damage which tanks already lost a HUGE portion of post i5-i6. Detoggling, stacked stuns, and knockback, along with no energy resists....WTH...I mean if no one can see the implications of this in PVP, they have got to be blind. Heck I even have a EM brute, and a SS tank, along with other blaster sets. Energy is hands down, along with ice following up there after above the rest. In PvP blasters with these sets chew me up all day long. Not asking for nerfs...but come on.
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The problem is with blaster's MASSIVE toggle dropping ability. That's the only thing that needs a good solid nerfing. Especially after I5 and ED.
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not to mention all the comments about how big my hammer is...
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They say that compensates for other areas that one may find.... lacking :P
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Extraplanar 50 Mind/Kin
Argos the Beast 50 Stone/Stone
Everblaze 50 Fire/SS
Falcon's Fury 50 Kat/Inv
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