I love gladiator! However, it needs some fixes
By
BackFire,
Posted on: 2005-11-02 19:30 in Badges and Gladiators
Actualy I dont really like any of your suggested improvements. Becaues lets say with
opt 1: Johnny X just unlocked the Tanksmasher. Now he must choose to take a powerful unit and run the gambit of not haveing enough points to balance a team or choose a large force of weak units and run the risk someone is useing warhulks/AMoA/longbow wardens. OOPS! Its not fun anymore now that his options have been nerfed sideways.
Opt2: No one would diversify teams anymore. They would just find the best way to cram as many minios and LT's onto the feild and pray for the rum shot Jimmy V felt like playing with his boss brigade today. Since no one would want to be undermanned with 4 heavy bosses VS 15 moderate minios and LT's well lets leave it at that. And since there would be over inflated minios teams about well My comp barely handels 6 man free for all. leave it at that.
Opt3: This woul just make it so people will only want to make teams of longbow wardens or just randomly click. Sure it would be cool to have outcast sluggers take down a CPT but really thats just.....no. the reason that alot of classes are diverse is to encourage good stratagy and have fun win or lose.
So maby it would just be easier to nerf the offending partys. The ones I can anmely think of are AMoA and calibans. The longbow warden may be in on it also. And to upgrade or replace the underpowerd partys such as the outcast sluggers or longbow nullifiers.
I cannot speak for any Mook/Cobra users as I havent played CoV much since beta. To busy enjoying my new CoH features.
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Actualy I dont really like any of your suggested improvements. Becaues lets say with
opt 1: Johnny X just unlocked the Tanksmasher. Now he must choose to take a powerful unit and run the gambit of not haveing enough points to balance a team or choose a large force of weak units and run the risk someone is useing warhulks/AMoA/longbow wardens. OOPS! Its not fun anymore now that his options have been nerfed sideways.
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How is this any different from the current situation? How would this be a nerf, for that matter? He said to rebalance the costs, not increase the cost of everything. If it's always one mob for one pick, minions should cost less than bosses.
And what about the opposite situation, where Johnny X just unlocked some cool minion, only to find that one copy of his new minion costs more than the Tank Smasher he already has on the team? If he wants to play with the new minion, he's not only going to be short on points for other mobs, but his new team is probably going to be strictly worse than his old one. (If you find a minion that can take a Freak Tank one-on-one, let me know.)
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Opt2: No one would diversify teams anymore. They would just find the best way to cram as many minios and LT's onto the feild and pray for the rum shot Jimmy V felt like playing with his boss brigade today. Since no one would want to be undermanned with 4 heavy bosses VS 15 moderate minios and LT's well lets leave it at that. And since there would be over inflated minios teams about well My comp barely handels 6 man free for all. leave it at that.
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I'm not familiar with the term "rum shot", but a pack of four bosses with AOE powers would mow through a group of 15 minions. Maybe if the minions were all Sappers, it'd be close to a fair fight.
How about diminishing return?
First Tank Smasher is 300, second 400, third 500.
Diversification is the current fashion anyways.
One, very long and full of work way, would be to mimick HeroClix. Instead of having minions, Lts, and bosses as distinct entities, you instead have varients of a single gladiator... in minion, lt, and boss varieties and then balance points and powers around that, with each rank up costing more but getting a little better. Some gladiators might not have boss versions and some might not have minion versions making them harder to fit in into a team as there would be no option for a lesser point version.
Why not keep costs they way they are, but limit the amount of bosses and Lts you can have to 0-1 boss, 0-3 Lts and 0+ minions per 2000 points? Or you could make it so that you only get bosses and Lts for your Gladiator badges. No minions at all. I'd rather have a Lead Brick than an Outcast Slugger or a Cannon Prince instead of a Cog, anyway, simply because the boss is cooler than the minion.
All in all, though, I'm not sure what'd really fix things but as it is now there are a fair few Gladiators that are more of a novelty than anything else.
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Why not keep costs they way they are, but limit the amount of bosses and Lts you can have to 0-1 boss, 0-3 Lts and 0+ minions per 2000 points?
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Because one boss (say, a 250 point Caliban) can two-shot ALL enemy minions AT ONCE. Lt's don't fare too much better against bosses, nor do minions against Lt's.
House Rules (only minions, only lt's, no Mage, etc.) make things more fun, but an open competition is simply not viable right now. As far as team optimization goes, haveing less than two Arch Mages of Agony WILL get you a loss against a competent player in a duel and having two or more on both teams WILL get a draw. There's no real competition without house rules.
Either way, 500 points for an Omega Wolf minion is waaaaay too much, even in minion VS minion fights. Points costs need adjusting.
The AMoA needs to cost something like 1500 points. Either that or it needs some serious nerfing.
Good ideas!
I don't think the 0-1 boss, 0-3 lt's, and unlimited minions would work too well on just its own though, because everyone will opt for 1 boss, 3 lt's and however minions they have the points left over for- the boss and the lt's are just too important compared to the minions. I do like the idea for more bosses instead of minions though; forget bat-boys, give me Lead Scorchers! 
I also like the idea for house rules that can have minion-only or boss-only fights, but there are a lot of questions about how that would work. They could add code to change mob class to match the fight for that to work well. For example, what if a player's team is a mix and he joins a game with say, bosses excluded? It would be a hassle trying to change your lineup based on what a game allows or not, but if the bosses get bumped down and minions up to the nearest available level then there's not as much of a problem. Also, it is somewhat biased against players with few gladiators unless it allows for mob class changing. Early on a person may only have 1 or 2 enemies of each class, and for a minion fight that wouldn't be enough to fill a full team. Though there is a problem with class changing: if the point values take the mob class into mind, bumped up enemies would be about as strong as mobs normally that class, but the bumped enemy costs less. Similar thing with bumped down mobs being too expensive. Also, what if someone wants to purposefully exclude certain mobs by denying a class type? (AMoA comes to mind, it would still be nasty as a lt I would think).
I guess my point is there are a lot of questions about implementation, and the devs will probably want to use the solution that requires the least amount of coding, considering gladiator is a pretty small part of the game and they want to focus most of their attention elsewhere. Rather than the rigamarole of balancing mobs based on the fact their class can change, it might be better to allow house rules to exclude any individual mob they want. So, if the game creator wants to have no bosses, he/she can exclude all the boss types. Still makes players deal with changing their lineup though, maybe the gladiator selection window should automatically come up when a person joins a gladiator game so they can comply with the house rules easier.
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The AMoA needs to cost something like 1500 points. Either that or it needs some serious nerfing.
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Actually, it's pretty well balanced as a boss. Granted it can tank a little well (you'd think Crey or Freak Tanks would be better than a *mage,* aren't mages supposed to go squish?), but a lot of that comes from siphoning, and two mages can only siphon so much--especially with firepower focused on them. Plus, that 500 points of a second mage could be 2 Calibans. Ow. I would change mages by increasing the recharge time of a siphon to half again (150%) the current value, and that's it.
The problem is the gap between bosses, minions, and lt's. An Omega Wolf costs double what a Caliban does and the Caliban can kill indefinitely many Omega Wolves in two attacks--so two Calibans takes care of all your opponent's minions right off the bat. As do Freak Tanks. As do Warhulks.
The gap between Gladiator ranks is the problem.
Oh, and for a kick-butt team, try:
2 Freak Tanks
1 Warhulk
2 AMoA's
Damage in spades, all bosses, exactly 2000 points, optimal magery, tough as nails.
You can also do two Mages and two Wardens for a virtually unkillable team, though damage is lacking a bit (made up for only by continuous siphons).
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Oh, and for a kick-butt team, try:
2 Freak Tanks
1 Warhulk
2 AMoA's
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I fought a guy who had something similar, 2 AMoA's, 2 Calibans, 1 Crey Power Tank. Didn't lose any of them during the fight (was a 4 player free-for-all). I would have done better, but I was testing out Longbow Wardens and Nullifiers, had 2 wardens and 2 nullifiers. You'd think nullifiers would be a bit better considering they cost 450; turns out they're lt's that have burst, slug, buckshot, and M30 grenade. Rip-off! Wardens are definitely good though.
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You'd think nullifiers would be a bit better considering they cost 450; turns out they're lt's that have burst, slug, buckshot, and M30 grenade.
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They also have some sort of Sonic power to debuff other combatants. But, yes... they are rather lackluster for their price.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
Yeah, this is defintiely something that's been on my mind since I started playing with the gladiators. Currently, there's really no reason to use minions and Lts. aside from filling out your extra points or special cases where they have good powers (Storm Shaman.)
I think the solution is to mimic how Masterminds work:
Suggestion 1 - When MMs gain new pets, their previous ones lower in level. I think Gladiators should work sort of in reverse. Rather than the minion and Lt pets losing levels, they'd gain them. For example, if I was level 50, I would summon a level 50 Warhulk, a level 51 Storm Shaman, and a level 52 Cog.
Suggestion 2 - The more of a particular pet you choose, the lower its level. If I have one Calibon, he's level 50. If I had 2, they'd both spawn at level 49. 3 would spawn at 48.
Of course, both suggestions depend on how much damage a boss mob can do to a minion 2 levels higher than it. They really need to make it so all gladiators are useful in the Arena and are balanced depending on their point cost.
What I'd like to see is only being able to use 1 of each boss, 2 of each ltd and 3 of each minion.
That's way you'd only be able to use one Archmage, Longbow Warden, Caliban, etc but still be able to make a team of only bosses if you wanted.
"The best thing about being a robot duplicate of Lord Nemesis is, well... Everything."
Before any diversification schemes, I'd just prefer some mobs performed better outright compared to their cost basis.
The 7th Gen PPs are pricey, but they are squishy as all hell and didn't seem to pack much of a punch (plus you get a random power, sometimes claws, sometimes Energy blast).
All Longbows are pricey, and have no "punch" that I've seen.
Wolfs started out great, but got dropped in a split second and I'm not sure how (opponent had only 2 pets left, and I had ~5...wolf got dropped hard and fast).
Not really sure the point of having Sluggers. Cannon fodder?
Side note: Boulders are funny because when they die, the rubble that forms, has no controller. They can attack what they want, but usually attack your opponents pets; you just can't control them.
I've already forgotten about most of you
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All Longbows are pricey, and have no "punch" that I've seen.
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Longbow Wardens are great--they're like AMoA-lite. Easier to kill (and just as expensive), so they're not quite as good as AMoAs, but then, what is?
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All Longbows are pricey, and have no "punch" that I've seen.
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Longbow Wardens are great--they're like AMoA-lite. Easier to kill (and just as expensive), so they're not quite as good as AMoAs, but then, what is?
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I may not have seen these particular ones....what's the badge for them?
Pretty sure I haven't seen these if their cost is ~500 like the Arch Mages'.
I've already forgotten about most of you
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I may not have seen these particular ones....what's the badge for them?
Pretty sure I haven't seen these if their cost is ~500 like the Arch Mages'.
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I believe you get them by finishing a door mission in a PVP zone (one of the ones that buffs your side or debuffs the opposing side). They've got psychic blasts (I think they use mental blast, subdue, and the psychic tornado), they can fly (so you can have them hover-blast if the map allows) and they have a PBAOE heal (I think). In my experience, they do better damage than the AMoA (at least when he's avoiding melee), but they're much easier to kill.
Some of the gladiator lists I've seen have had a "Longbow Warden 1" and a "Longbow Warden 2". I'm not sure what the difference is.
Archmage Accolade, I think.
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I may not have seen these particular ones....what's the badge for them?
Pretty sure I haven't seen these if their cost is ~500 like the Arch Mages'.
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I believe you get them by finishing a door mission in a PVP zone (one of the ones that buffs your side or debuffs the opposing side). They've got psychic blasts (I think they use mental blast, subdue, and the psychic tornado), they can fly (so you can have them hover-blast if the map allows) and they have a PBAOE heal (I think). In my experience, they do better damage than the AMoA (at least when he's avoiding melee), but they're much easier to kill.
Some of the gladiator lists I've seen have had a "Longbow Warden 1" and a "Longbow Warden 2". I'm not sure what the difference is.
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The hero I've used for Gladiator matches hasn't done any PvP zone missions due to being level 50; so I know I haven't used this particular one.
I'll have to get someone to exemp with me to run one of those. The 2 Longbow critters he can use are 300 or less, and basically just suck.
I've already forgotten about most of you
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The 7th Gen PPs are pricey, but they are squishy as all hell and didn't seem to pack much of a punch
...
All Longbows are pricey, and have no "punch" that I've seen.
...
Wolfs started out great, but got dropped in a split second and I'm not sure how
...
Not really sure the point of having Sluggers. Cannon fodder?
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The gladiators you mentioned, besides a couple longbow, are minions. Bosses can easily one- or two-shot them. Lt.'s don't have much more trouble.
Minions are basically useless in an open match, take bosses whenever possible.
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The 7th Gen PPs are pricey, but they are squishy as all hell and didn't seem to pack much of a punch
...
All Longbows are pricey, and have no "punch" that I've seen.
...
Wolfs started out great, but got dropped in a split second and I'm not sure how
...
Not really sure the point of having Sluggers. Cannon fodder?
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The gladiators you mentioned, besides a couple longbow, are minions. Bosses can easily one- or two-shot them. Lt.'s don't have much more trouble.
Minions are basically useless in an open match, take bosses whenever possible.
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Exactly. The prices associated with the ones I listed are out of whack compared to others, either same rank or not.
I've already forgotten about most of you
I'll be looking at the point costs.
(It's just like wargames -- constantly twiddling with Army Point values!)
zeb
Fantastic!
*waves hands in an eerie manner*
VoodooCompany's Arch Mage does not need to be looked at; tweak all others though.
That is all.
I've already forgotten about most of you
Perhaps a sort of arena economy would work. Meaning, don't bother trying to balance the costs, but set them to fluctuate up and down depending on the popularity of the gladiator. Soon the most powerful gladiators would be the most expensive, and vice-versa. Self-balancing.
People would try to find those "best-kept secret" gladiators which are not popular (and therefore cheap) but surprisingly effective -- perhaps only in combination with a particular other cheap gladiator. Of course, any effective tactic will catch on, thus raising its cost and balancing things again.
(the folowing bit is for numbers people)
The total cost of all gladiator types (added together) would not change unless new monsters were added to the game. Say 1 of each type of gladiator, all together, costs 1 million points. The cost of any individual gladiator will be a percentage of that 1 million. So if a Freak Tank starts out at a cost of 400 (0.04% of that 1 million), and its popularity raises the cost to 2138 (0.2138%) the percentage costs of all other gladiator types will be lowered slightly to keep the total at 1 million.
Hello all.
), but I think the problem runs much, much deeper than just specific instances.
), it will give teams composed of primarily liutenants and minions a fighting chance to win through force of numbers. Speaking of numbers, that brings me to option two...
. Needless to say, minion costs would have to go up to prevent lag and overcrowding from all-minion teams duking it out; I'm guessing the average for all mob types should be 400-500 or so, since it's already possible to have dozen gladiators (if I did the math right... 3x100 Outcasts + 3x150 buckshot + 3x150 Cog + 3x200 Button Man = 12 guys at 1800 points). This method would make minions and lieutenants more useful via the amount you can bring to the field.
.
I think Gladiator matches are a cool idea and I have enjoyed the matches I have been in so far (I have an obsession with watching computer controlled characters beating on each other, hence the MM main). Nevertheless, the balance between different gladiators available is seriously out of whack. Some people have already mentioned a few specific cases like Arch Mages of Agony, Calibans, and Mook Capos (OK, so I'm the only one who thinks the mooks are powerful- love those wiseguys!
It has to do with the fact that any single boss gladiator outclasses all lieutenant or minion by a large margin, and the point costs do not reflect this difference.
Just compare one boss against its point equivalent in minions or lieutenants. A tank smasher costs 300 points, and a Nebula elite buckshot costs 150 points. Is there any way on earth two buckshot minions could take down a freak tank? Also consider some of the more outrageously priced minions and lieutenants. A lancer costs 350, the same as a lost Pariah. A longbow nullifier costs 450 while a Cobra costs 250; instead of one lieutenant, you could have two bosses for only 50 more! The costs as they stand are more arbitrary than anything: the enemy groups encountered later in the game tend to cost much more than the ones found early on, independent of their actual usefulness.
I think there needs to be a new paradigm for mob classes, and I see three different possible ways to accomplish this: (1) cost revamping, (2) 3:2:1 ratio, or (3) power equalization.
(1) Cost revamping
This is somewhat self-explanitory, keep the current setup but change all the numbers to be more equal. What I consider as equal is whether the fight would be relatively close using equivalent point value teams of one mob against the other, with slightly higher values assigned to mobs with useful tactical properties that might not be apparent in a 1-on-1 match (healing, mez, etc.). Considering that it would be nice to keep the numbers divisible by 50, and 100 is baseline for one minion, I think the costs for most all bosses will have to increase significantly. I think the average boss will have to cost 500 points in order for there to be enough breathing room below for minions and lieutenants, with extra-powerful bosses costing even more. While this will eliminate teams of 6 bosses (I'll miss my Cobra/Mook Capo squad
(2) 3:2:1 Ratio
Personally this would be my favorite solution to the problem. Quick summary of the idea: change the point values for all mobs to be about the same, varying a bit for mobs with useful powers, but have each slot of a lieutenant mob give two lieutenants, and each slot for a minion give three minions. Actually I think 4:2:1 would be easier to balance considering how strong bosses are compared to minions, but 3:2:1 is more catchy
(3) Power Equalization
This is definitely my least favorite of the options. The big idea: eliminate distinction between minions, lieutenants, and bosses, giving them the same amount of HP and similar base damages for their attacks. Bosses and lieutenants would still cost more than minions due to their more impressive array of attacks or resistances, but for any given attack/resistance value they would all do identical damage and have identical surviveability. While this does solve the problem, it would make combat a lot more bland. All the mobs are essentially the same, some just happen to have more attacks or better resistance than the others. It also saps a lot of the thrill of using a heavy-hitting boss type in your team- who would want to see two or three Outcasts with bats taking down a Crey Power Tank? Ugh.
So, any one among those options would alleviate the power discrepancy, though some are more interesting than the others. As a disclamer, I don't have very solid evidence backing up these statements, I have tried to get into every gladiator fight I could but they don't seem to happen too often... only have had a handful so far, and a lot of these claims are based on my experience in those few fights, and just the point costs themselves. If a volunteer with a good array of gladiator badges wants to coordinate with me or others to go to the test server and get some solid data on what beats what, that would be great. I typically only play on the weekends but I wouldn't mind putting in some time on the test server for the gladiator cause
So, comments?