I love gladiator! However, it needs some fixes

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Fantastic!

*waves hands in an eerie manner*
VoodooCompany's Arch Mage does not need to be looked at; tweak all others though.

That is all.



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you think the archmage of agony is bad.... the longbow warden is right there too.

Mesons are 400.... mesons are pathetic.

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I'll be looking at the point costs.

(It's just like wargames -- constantly twiddling with Army Point values!)

zeb

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It's Pokemon meets Table Football, Zeb. You don't have to gloss it over with a cool name. It's ok, really.

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Mesons are 400.... mesons are pathetic.

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They're 450, actually(I think...)...They're LTs
Sure, they have defense debuffs and accuracy bonuses, but they're NOT worth 450 points!

Are the bugs in certain gladiator badges going to be looked at?

For instance Abomination states "The banished pantheon fears you" This is a vhazliok unit not banished pantheon. Also supposedly the synsape tf badge gives it but shouldn't that be Positron tf? Synsaspe is fully clockwork.

Also for those gladiator badges that tied to defeat say 300 bladegrass can we get a progress bar for them?

Also some badges when you look at the unit say the Badge for the Omega Wolf why would the Silver Bullet badge give a praetorian unit instead of a council unit or a generic werewolf like the halloween event?

Also the Wraith unit shouldn't be a Diabloque faction unit it should be one the croatoa ghost bosses or a whole new bio and unit look.

Fundamentally, a proper point blance would be best, allowing the player the most freedom of choice. Unfortunately, it is very tough. Champions / Hero System has had 20 years of tuning to it, and certain teams will reliably take down certain other teams of the same point value. It can't be prevented when a wide array of powers are available. The best you can hope for is to get enough play balance to eliminate the phenomenon of a team that reliably stomps all other teams of the same point total.

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Perhaps a sort of arena economy would work. Meaning, don't bother trying to balance the costs, but set them to fluctuate up and down depending on the popularity of the gladiator. Soon the most powerful gladiators would be the most expensive, and vice-versa. Self-balancing.

People would try to find those "best-kept secret" gladiators which are not popular (and therefore cheap) but surprisingly effective -- perhaps only in combination with a particular other cheap gladiator. Of course, any effective tactic will catch on, thus raising its cost and balancing things again.

(the folowing bit is for numbers people)
The total cost of all gladiator types (added together) would not change unless new monsters were added to the game. Say 1 of each type of gladiator, all together, costs 1 million points. The cost of any individual gladiator will be a percentage of that 1 million. So if a Freak Tank starts out at a cost of 400 (0.04% of that 1 million), and its popularity raises the cost to 2138 (0.2138%) the percentage costs of all other gladiator types will be lowered slightly to keep the total at 1 million.

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Good idea. Keep adjustments for minion, lieutenants, and bosses separate though.

Actually, now that I think about it, maybe just use it as a guide for balancing. It's not very fun to have creatures' point value constantly fluctuating simply because of their popularity and not their effectiveness.

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Fundamentally, a proper point blance would be best, allowing the player the most freedom of choice. Unfortunately, it is very tough. Champions / Hero System has had 20 years of tuning to it, and certain teams will reliably take down certain other teams of the same point value. It can't be prevented when a wide array of powers are available. The best you can hope for is to get enough play balance to eliminate the phenomenon of a team that reliably stomps all other teams of the same point total.

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True, but the difference with wargames is that the characters are a known and set quantity. It's like balancing MTG or HeroClix or Warhammer - the pieces are a set and known quantity. While the collection of them may change, it's a little easier since there is no one trying to put uber defense with uber offense as the designers already determined the powers out.

It's like MechWarrior from WizKids Games when it first came out: the game kicked A$$, but the point values were a tad skewed. They've gradually fixed this, and I really think that's the only change necessary (beyond having matches available with higher or lower point costs [say, increments of 1000?]) here. As good (bad? ugly(J/K!)?) Lord Recluse pointed out, it's about messing with the point balance, and I'm glad they're looking into it

Interesting idea, but highly abusable. There would be organized gladiator fixing matches to screw with the economy right away.

Right now, the number of "best builds" is too few. Currently, this is from the unbalanced costs; however, even with better balancing, all the player needs to take into account are Cost vs Capability. There just isn't much depth in the concept of gladiator matches.

Perhaps more factors need to be introduced.

One idea is Battle Experience. Basically, make it so that your gladiators can gain levels in battle. Experience is gained over time (by staying alive) and by defeating others. The Experience tables vary by gladiator type so that at the battle's end, Sluggers may end up gaining 5 levels (provided they can last that long), while AMoA's won't even level once. The idea of battle experience is to put not only a unit's raw Capabilities into figuring against Cost, but also a unit's Potential. It also introduces risk, as you're betting that your unit can reach that potential.

The other idea is customization points. After you buy all your units, you have a separate pool of points with which you can customize your units. Possible customizations:<ul type="square">[*]enhancements -- you can buy enhancments for your gladiators. Severe Enhancement Diversification penalties kick in for Bosses at 0%, Lt's at 16%, and minions at 33%. You can buy a total of 1 enhancement per unit, and each unit can use up to 6 enhancements. For example, you have 1 boss, 2 lieutenants, and 5 minions, so can buy up to 8 enhancements. You get 6 SO and 2 DO damage enhancments, sticking all the SO's into the boss for +30% damage after ED, and the 2 DO's in the Lts.[*]inspirations -- you can use customization points to buy inspirations for your gladiators. Minions can carry 4 insps, lieutenants can have 2, and bosses none (they're above using them) Hopefully, the AI can be smart enough to use it when appropriate.[*]temporary powers -- limited to a max of one power on each unit. The temp. powers would be utility powers like minor pool powers (Swift, Hurdle, Boxing, etc.), and limited use powers (like flash or web grenades). There could be some more powerful (and more costly) single use powers like Embalmed self-destruct and self-revival (Crey style with constant DoT until death).[/list]Hopefully customization would provide flexibility for different stratgies even between folks who chose the same set of gladiators.

I'm surprised so few people are talking about the Gladiators considering how fun they are. They definately need a lot of tweeking though. Three Arch Agony Mages are industructable unless you have two people attacking you with their armies at once.

I've never lost with 3 Agonies...always a stalemate. Everyone I've ever fought with 3 Agonies either stalemated with me or won.

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It's like MechWarrior from WizKids Games when it first came out: the game kicked A$$, but the point values were a tad skewed. They've gradually fixed this, and I really think that's the only change necessary (beyond having matches available with higher or lower point costs [say, increments of 1000?]) here. As good (bad? ugly(J/K!)?) Lord Recluse pointed out, it's about messing with the point balance, and I'm glad they're looking into it

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I'd love to have 1000 point and 3000 point battles.

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Right now, the number of "best builds" is too few. Currently, this is from the unbalanced costs; however, even with better balancing, all the player needs to take into account are Cost vs Capability. There just isn't much depth in the concept of gladiator matches.

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I don't know. I think that if there were more buff/debuff/healing mobs, or the existing minion/lt ones were equalized with bosses, there would be a good amount more strategy to constructing a team. Even currently, "Capability" isn't the same for every mob...AMoAs have pretty low damage potential for bosses, but their huge resists and heals make them great, while other bosses are used for damage potential.

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One idea is Battle Experience. Basically, make it so that your gladiators can gain levels in battle. Experience is gained over time (by staying alive) and by defeating others. The Experience tables vary by gladiator type so that at the battle's end, Sluggers may end up gaining 5 levels (provided they can last that long), while AMoA's won't even level once. The idea of battle experience is to put not only a unit's raw Capabilities into figuring against Cost, but also a unit's Potential. It also introduces risk, as you're betting that your unit can reach that potential.

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Eh...I don't like this idea. Currently, part of the draw (for me, at least) of gladiator matches is the lack of consequences. I don't have to worry about losing a 10,000 prestige object from my base, or getting XP debt, or having to kill another 300 Ancestor Spirits if I lose. If my gladiators started gaining experience but started over when they died, I'd be very averse to playing gladiator matches because I'd be losing a time investment if things went against me.

Also, this system would provide reinforcement in an unbalancing way. If you start out winning, the game gives you an edge over your opponents, making it more likely that you'll keep winning. If you lose, your opponents' units get stronger while yours stay the same (or even get weaker, if they lose their accumulated experience when they die), making it more likely that you'll keep losing.

On that topic, this also goes against one of the other aspects of gladiator matches that I enjoy--it's a reasonably even footing. AMoAs aside for the moment, there aren't really any major time investments required to compete. The only time investment is basically badge hunting, which is something you'd probably do anyway. You don't have to worry going in that your opponent might have spent 400 hours playing Gladiator matches and stomp you with an incredible starting advantages--the only thing he's going to get from 400 hours of Gladiator is better strategy.

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The other idea is customization points. After you buy all your units, you have a separate pool of points with which you can customize your units. Possible customizations:


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This would be interesting.

Well off in the land of not using AMoA or Longbow Wardens (which are just as bad if not worse), I've been able to learn a good bit about some gladiators.

Warhulks: Worth all 400 points. Very capable, very deadly.

Crey Power Tanks: Kinda meh for the price. They run out of endurance too quickly, but are good otherwise.

Calibans: You get too much for the price.

Swift Steel: Worth it, very nice.

Meson: Absolutely horrid! 450 for a fragile piece of junk that deals hardly any damage and can't live long enough to fulfill its purpose well (defense debuffs).

Raider Engineer: No use having more than 1, the generator's a tad fragile anyway.

Wraith: Good, but not 450 points good. Would be 450 points good if they kept Chill of the Night up constantly rather than cycling it.

Pariah Anchorite: Good for the cost.

Advanced Drone: For 350 points? yeah right! Triple its damage and then maybe we'll see about that.

Tank Smashers: Almost too good for the price, especially when they rez.

Avalance Shaman: On the rare occasion he actually uses Earthquake, he's worth it. Otherwise he's not.

AMoA + Longbow Warden: Ridiculously overpowered.

A combo I'm using right now is Swift Steels + Calibans with some other random thing for support. It seems the last thing calibans need is 3 kineticists, each of which deals a good amount of damage himself.

Warhulks + Calibans will give you a good mix of killage and tankage. Set the warhulks at flamethrower distance and let them cycle through their 2 ranged attacks for great justice. Throw in a swift steel and you've got some pain.

I've not been so impressed with the Warhulks myself. They do absolutely insane damage, but they seem to go down a lot quicker than the other tank types.

I agree that the Bosses are undercosted for the most part and Minions are overcosted considerably. Even 8 Cogs or Nebula Buckshots (getting 4 per buy instead of 1) are going to have a tough time against a single Tank. AoEs just slaughter them and even if they don't, the bosses one-shot them while their peashooters just plink off of the armor.

Devs: Maybe you should run controlled trials to figure out how much each thing should cost? Perhaps create a testbed where you have a standard mix of enemies (few minions, a lt or two and a boss), and send a few of each gladiator type against that mix. Record how much damage they do and how long they last, and then use that to calculate the point costs. It wouldn't be perfect, but it'd probably get you something pretty close and I can assure you that it won't tell you that two Cogs are as valuable as a Freak Tank.

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True, but the difference with wargames is that the characters are a known and set quantity. It's like balancing MTG or HeroClix or Warhammer - the pieces are a set and known quantity. While the collection of them may change, it's a little easier since there is no one trying to put uber defense with uber offense as the designers already determined the powers out.

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Isn't it already kinda like that though?

It really should be absurdly easy to jury-rig a better point scaling system long enough to figure it out. My Termagants (an Omega Wolf at 500 points) cost more than my Hive Tyrants (300 point Tank Smasher).

Just make minions cost 0-150 points, Lt.'s cost 200-350 points, and bosses cost 400-550 points for now. Rebalance based on real testing later.

Edit to remove redundancy.
Edit for sentence structure.
Edit for spelling too.
It must be too early in the morning for me to type today.

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One idea is Battle Experience. Basically, make it so that your gladiators can gain levels in battle. Experience is gained over time (by staying alive) and by defeating others. The Experience tables vary by gladiator type so that at the battle's end, Sluggers may end up gaining 5 levels (provided they can last that long), while AMoA's won't even level once. The idea of battle experience is to put not only a unit's raw Capabilities into figuring against Cost, but also a unit's Potential. It also introduces risk, as you're betting that your unit can reach that potential.

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Eh...I don't like this idea. Currently, part of the draw (for me, at least) of gladiator matches is the lack of consequences. I don't have to worry about losing a 10,000 prestige object from my base, or getting XP debt, or having to kill another 300 Ancestor Spirits if I lose. If my gladiators started gaining experience but started over when they died, I'd be very averse to playing gladiator matches because I'd be losing a time investment if things went against me.
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Sorry, wasn't being clear -- I didn't mean to imply that battle experience would be persistent. I totally agree that experience -- if persistent -- would be a Very Bad Thing. However, if it's only temporary, it adds another factor to the battle. Right now, once you see what everyone has at the start of a battle, the outcome is more often than not predictable, since the total power of your army can only go down. But with units able to level, players must not only take into account what's currently in the arena, but also the possibility of what they might become.

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The other idea is customization points. After you buy all your units, you have a separate pool of points with which you can customize your units. Possible customizations:


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This would be interesting.

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Yes. Like Battle Experience, Customization will be another factor for players to consider. Currently, just by looking, your opponent knows all the abilities and general tactics that go with those units. But with customization, your hidden customizations can allow you to deviate from the usual tactics. For example, normal minions aren't worth crap against bosses, but when equipped with Embalmed bombs they'll become an actual threat. Or perhaps you can slot units up with range enhancements, using them as artillery while your tanks keep the enemy beyond normal attack range. More possibilities, more tactics.

You forgot to mention Mook Capos, Quizzles. You never were able to take down my team with 3 of those

Personally I think you overrate the Wardens just a bit. If they had better healing AI they would be superb, but they have a tendency to waste all their endurance on mediocrte psychic attacks rather than timely heals. I thought the 2 Cobra, 3 Mook, 1 Warden team was way better than the 2 Cobra, 3 Warden team, because the extra offense from the Mooks outshined the extra healing. Still a good pick though, even for 500 points.

I'm also somewhat disappointed with Warhulks, because their accuracy seems a little iffy. This might have just been luck but it seemed that they always had a missing streak when I needed them to pump out damage. I did really like the Freak Tanks though, except when they were low on andurance and just kept hand clapping over and over.

When you had only 1 Swift Steel, it seemed like it was just a fast-moving, hard to hit nuisance. That team with 3 Swift Steels and 3 Calibans though, seemed to completely dice my squad with all those damage boosts.

Cobras seemed extremely good for 250 points, with AoE acid spray and powerful melee attacks.

I hope gladiator becomes more popular, I want to try out a 6+ player free-for-all

I agree that that AMoAs are way overpowered. My lvl 50 has a pretty good selection of Gladiators to choose from; yet I was pwned consistantly by an SGmate who had AMoAs no matter what I brought to the table.

It also might be nice to bump up the number of Minions one can purchase. Locking Bosses at 3 is fine, but maybe bump it to 4 for Lieutenants and 5 for minions?

One major thing I've seen with the archmage of agony. They appear to use absorb pain but without the downside. May be interesting to see how uber they are with that turned to the hero version.

I'd like to see an option to set what kind of gladiators are used. A little button that you can select for Minion, Lieutenant, or Boss. That way you could have all Minion only, or Minion and Boss only, or Boss only, or whatever combo you liked but it would give a chance to use those Minions more effectively.

I'd like to be able to edit my gladiator picks after I've joined the chat for a battle. I don't want to have to drop out of the match chat just to swap a couple of choices, especially an invite-only match.

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I'd like to be able to edit my gladiator picks after I've joined the chat for a battle. I don't want to have to drop out of the match chat just to swap a couple of choices, especially an invite-only match.

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/Concur

I think the gladiator window should just pop up alongside the match window when you join a gladiator match. It would be much easier to change on the fly, and might be helpful to those new to gladiator as well so they don't enter a match with no gladiators. Just one of those quality-of-life features I'd like to see.

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The AMoA needs to cost something like 1500 points. Either that or it needs some serious nerfing.

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I think that the AMoA should either cost 1250 or be entirely removed.

They need to bump it up to 'Elite Boss' too, so that more inexperienced people understand how dangerous it is. I had three Warden 1s and a Pariah Anchorite on him, and he wasn't going down.