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Thunder Kick appears to have been "adjusted" from the CoH MA version. It now does less damage than air superiority, takes longer to recharge than air superiority, and its secondary effect triggers much less often than air superiority. Supposedly, this sort of inversion (a power pool attack being in all ways superior to a primary attack) shouldn't actually happen.
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When I was working with geko to get CAK to a better balance point, we noticed that Thunder Kick was doing damage based on it having a one second longer recharge time than it actually had. We corrected it at that time, despite it being a "nerf." We were pretty sure the other improvements in the set more than made up for us correcting what was essentially a bug.
Now, comparing it to Air Superiority is interesting. AS is a favorite power of mine, precisely because it is so effective. If it is true that it is 'better' than Thunder Kick, I'll talk to geko about getting TK's animation time shortened (if possible) or returning TK's damage, but increase its recharge time. In other words, I'll look into it.
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This si the kind of changes that should go into patch notes! Please! I have a build that is very centerted around the damage and recharge time of martial arts attacks, and any change can easily uspet the balance. So, I suppose, do others. At least tell us if you change these things, so we don't have to /bug it. Preferably, don't mess with timing!
You know, I always have found it funny that almost everyone on the dev team says "Claws is really a very good set," when players repeatedly bring it up as falling short.
There's one reason for this; the interminable animation times.
Let's take one of Spines' best attacks, Impale. This is a high damage, ranged Slowing Immobilize with DOT and -Fly. For all that, the long animation ("Here's the windup, and the pitch!") is entirely justified and even expected. It's still a great power.
Now, compare that to Claws' third attack, Slash. Same exact windup-and-pitch animation, but none of the benefits. It's just melee lethal damage. Oh, and a -Def, which is pretty minor and, let's face it, doesn't stack up to a ranged Slowing Immobilize. With DOT. And -Fly. Swipe is the same way; minor damage, but you're stuck with that horrid flailing animation for around two seconds. That's a long time for such a weak attack.
The Claws set is supposed to be a blender on legs. That's not really what it delivers, and that's why people pipe up with their dissatisfaciton when they don't get it (as I'm doing now).
On paper, the numbers for Claws may be great, but I have yet to see the animation times be taken into account by this, and in practice the set is SLOW. Worse, it even FEELS slow. I love the concept behind claws, I've got character ideas that should be claw users, but I cannot STAND the set. Relatively low damage, highly resisted (lethal being the second most resisted damage type in the game), and the ridiculously long animation times all add up to underperformance and a poor "feeling" to the set.
Could we get Claws looked at? I mean, looked at beyond the spreadsheets and numbers on paper and at the actual function of the set? I want a claws character, but the set needs work before I can stomach it.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
This is exactly why I briefly tried, then binned a Claws Stalker in beta (I'm now Ninja blade).
I played a Claws scrapper in CoH, and never truly felt satisfied with it. Sure, at high level it could dish out ok damage, but the problem is more cosmetic.
As the poster above correctly (imho) states, the claws set should fight like a blender - trouble is, it doesn't... Each animation has weighty pauses in between, with some attacks simply being ponderous. Ridiculously slow baseball pitch, long pause, single slash, long pause, a few tickles to the face, long pause.
Edit (suggestion): Personally, I'd much prefer claws if the damage per hit was lowered (along with endurance cost), but the animation time and recharge *drastically* improved - this would lend more of the blender feel to the set. Throw in a single good damage attack to use as a non-AS crit backup, and you'd have a good Stalker set (that *feels* right as well as plays right). Claws should be death by a thousand cuts.
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of course ";Kanchoureact" would be priceless.
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I assume you've read all of this?
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
claws damage is low enough. adjusting the animations of the 5 annoying attacks, swipe, slash, spin, follow, Evis, would do a heck of a lot. I'd almost want to try a version of claws where they simply took about 3/4ths to 1 second off of each of those animations. Certain powers need their end costs lowered too. Spin and Shockwave . Spin does less damage and has much lower dps than the whirling swords, but costs the same and recharges in a similar time frame. Shockwave is the same. Compared to Throw Spines, it's less damage no 2ndary effects, the same rechrage and cost.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
Now SF play fair.
Shockwaves knockback is the secondary effect.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
Many people believe the activation times are worth more than base damage, especially for a Stalker, and even more in PvP.
Claws and Spines are often perceived as the "old-maids" of the Stalker Primary Powersets. They were designed back in golden-days of CoH and have had very few evolutionary changes. Claws and Spines are fun sets for CoH Scrappers, but don't provide the symmetry the other powersets provide for a Stalker.
CLAWS:
Swipe /3sec
Strike /2sec
Slash /3sec
Focus /2sec
Eviscerate /2sec
Shockwave /2sec
The biggest complaints are Swipe and Slash, especially when compared to a powers like Total Focus and Bone Smasher that do substantially more damage, with 1 second activation times. I have a lvl 50 Enrg/Invuln tank, and the loss of vitality is a small disadvantage, compared to unloading a 12.66 BI attack in 1 second, even with a reduced crit component. Also, there is the redraw-animation for claws that makes attacks chains feel a bit clunky.
SPINES:
Barb Swipe: 3
Lunge: 2
Spine Burst: 3
Impale: 3
Ripper: 2
Throw Spines: 2
The biggest offenders here are Barb Swipe and Spine Burst. I am sure the analysis can go all day on this, but compare this to mid-level attack, like Bone Smasher (4.556 BI, 1 sec activation), and you have an attack with a 3 second activation providing only 2.7779 BI. Heck even Lunge provides only a 3.6112 BI with a 2 second activation. Finally Spine Burst, the AOE melee defining skill of Spines does a 3.3334 BI with a 3 second activatin time. Presently, this skill does not Crit every target if hidden. I find this odd, since this set gives up a lot compared to Energy Melee on single-target DPS, but there is a restriction on AOE Melee attacks (with a 3.334 DPS / 3 second activation) doing crits? Spines has AOE attacks, but lower single-target DPS, higher activation times, and redraw animation issues.... so why restrict AOE crits? (Golden Dragonfly and Shockwave have similar complaints.)
In summary, the Stalker is not a Scrapper and many of the powersets, not just Claws and Spines, need to be further reviewed to adjust to the tactics of the Stalker. There might be a spreadsheet somewhere that explains the present balance of Spines and Claws, but there is also a spreadsheet that explains the benefits of a trillion-dollar deficit.
Cheers,
SUN
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I posted a screen shot of how this move usually ends up looking like I'm performing a colon examination. Well whether you saw it or not, I'm wondering if it is in fact feasible to change an AS graphic or not? It doesn't _have_ to be something new, but how about something less.... intimate?
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Just shout "Kanchou!" when you do that attack. 
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Now THAT is funny. 
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Okay, in case you didn't see it on the beta boards, here it is......
Kanchou: The rectal assassin
I'm kinda wishing I would have named the character Kanchou.... how humiliatin'. I love the look of the MA set otherwise, so that's why I kept with it. I would love to see something something less personally intrusive for the AS though. A flying elbow crack to the skull. Something like that.
Anyway, as you can see in the picture, I finished examining the Aberrant and told him to come back and see me next year.... oh , and I told him to eat more fibre, and less.... corn.
Nekron: Beam Rifle / Poison Corruptor and Slayer of Evil!! (Exalted)
Intergalaktic: Fire / Time Corruptor (Exalted)
Is it possible to set cone attacks to automatically critical from Hidden whenever only one target is in range? Until L26, Ninja Blade is stuck with using their L1 power if they want an auto crit outside of Assassin's Blade.
Any chance we can get the base defensive numbers for Ninjitsu, which you mention as being the lowest. A lot of people have been assuming they were the same as the equivalent SR powers. Knowing these numbers is necessary to make an informed decision about slotting.
Scorus
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Okay, in case you didn't see it on the beta boards, here it is......
Kanchou: The rectal assassin
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"One thousand years of pain!!"
Castle old buddy, will these upcoming reworkings of Claw and Spine powers make the leap to the Hero versions of the sets as well?
Just wondering if this'd be identical to the recent Martial Arts changes.
"I'm flying free with my beautiful butterfly wings!" ~ Randy Marsh
There's a very simple solution for NPC following and stalkers.
Allow them to hide and still be followed... but:
When the NPC follower gets in aggro range of a MOB, he won't move until you clear out those MOBs. Obviously there's aggro range AI on some of these NPCs, in the Zig prison break mission the damn NPCs won't stop aggroing and attacking, all you have to do is change the AI on the non-combat NPCs so aggro = freeze instead of fight.
It just seems like the MMO developer's common knee-jerk reaction to perceive a problem and go for the easiest "solution" without considering how it affects a class' gameplay. I know that you guys can be creative when you want to be, you've created a game that I'm still playing after all this time.
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When the NPC follower gets in aggro range of a MOB, he won't move until you clear out those MOBs. Obviously there's aggro range AI on some of these NPCs, in the Zig prison break mission the damn NPCs won't stop aggroing and attacking, all you have to do is change the AI on the non-combat NPCs so aggro = freeze instead of fight.
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Yes, that's perfect. They can just start doing the 'cheer' emote, or even run up to your enemies (their friends).
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All of the secondary sets should include powers similar to Ninjutsu's "crowd control" abilities, to give the Stalker something to do that lets him stay close, while waiting for hide to reactivate. In short, increase the tactical options for stalkers to more than just "Stand 'n' Scrap" and "Run 'n' Hide."
[/ QUOTE ] Not likely to happen. Ninjitsu has the most 'toys' but pays for it by having the weakest overall defenses Stalkers have available. It's a heck of a fun set to play, though.
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Has this changed since the end of Beta? In my testing, I seem to remember that EAs defensive numbers were worse than Ninjitsu's.....
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Castle old buddy, will these upcoming reworkings of Claw and Spine powers make the leap to the Hero versions of the sets as well?
Just wondering if this'd be identical to the recent Martial Arts changes.
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Probably. I haven't done comparisons for Scrapper sets, yet, and it is entirely possible any changes made would be different between the two AT's.
That said, remember this is all a long way off. I've been playing with numbers and still have to get it all to the way I like it. Then, I talk to geko and he and I go over everything to make sure he agrees with my assessments (and we are never 100% in agreement on this sort of thing!) After that, we need to get animation time, which is in very short supply. It will *probably* be in the next Update, but it may be sooner, and it may be much later.
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Castle old buddy, will these upcoming reworkings of Claw and Spine powers make the leap to the Hero versions of the sets as well?
Just wondering if this'd be identical to the recent Martial Arts changes.
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Probably. I haven't done comparisons for Scrapper sets, yet, and it is entirely possible any changes made would be different between the two AT's.
That said, remember this is all a long way off. I've been playing with numbers and still have to get it all to the way I like it. Then, I talk to geko and he and I go over everything to make sure he agrees with my assessments (and we are never 100% in agreement on this sort of thing!) After that, we need to get animation time, which is in very short supply. It will *probably* be in the next Update, but it may be sooner, and it may be much later.
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I would really hope that Claws scrappers get any boost you give to stalkers. Claws has needed loving since coh release but has seen very little if any. Not to mention that stalkers with claws get build up, which already makes them better than the claws scrappers.
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Not to mention that stalkers with claws get build up, which already makes them better than the claws scrappers.
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I really hate when people say things like this. With ED, build up isn't as powerful as it was. At least follow up is essentially always on and Very ED friendly. (Two Acc to make sure it hits even the high def foes, a recharge or two, and two To hit Buffs make this power very solid)
It's obviously Build Up is better for stalkers because hitting your opponent with Follow Up before trying to Assassinate is worthless, no arguement on this change.
But I'll stick with follow up on my scrapper thank you. the power helped me through easily 40 levels up play and is a critical part of my attack chain.
I would hate to have to wait for Build Up to activate each fight to get the utility from it I get from Follow Up.
Go play with Katana if you want quick attacks, low end, and build up.
_WAter_
Doing my part to make sure the voice of the minority isn't taken seriously.
***Liberty***
Panther's Grace:50 Claws/SR
Hena Muri:39 Claws/Regen
Child of Grace:32 WS
Shankilahre:32 DM/WP
Panther's Fury:33 Claws/SR
Anubia:50 DB/WP
***Guardian***
Panther's Ghost:50 Night Widow
i agree on follow up. for a scrapper, it has its pluses and minuses now and isn't just outright inferior. However, this - -
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Go play with Katana if you want quick attacks, low end, and build up.
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I take issue with. I'm sorry, but Claws is supposed to be the low end quick attack set. that's from the game, the devs and everyone else. There is nothing wrong with people working to finally get claws into a position where it resembles the description its had for a year and a half.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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There is nothing wrong with people working to finally get claws into a position where it resembles the description its had for a year and a half.
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Then why do you have a problem with another set having similar stats but build up instead? Before Katana was just an alternate weapon for Broadsword. Even now It still has a slightly higher end usage per attack, but primarily it lacks rang whereas Claws has Focus and Shockwave.
I don't mind sets sharing a common designation of Low End. What I mind is people changing an inherrent power becuase they like something else more. It wouldn't be so bad if people didn't actively use it. I.E. old elude compared to the I2 version, but that's not exactly giving me something someone else already has (MoG changes came at the same time), nor did it hurt the flavor of elude. Elude currently eludes, you can just attack with it now. (And given the Phase Shift changes, which is what old elude was, it would have been turned into a click regardless)
However, suggesting swapping a power for something else, that's a great deal more significant, more so when the majority of traits are shared with another scrapper set, and by merely ditching focus/shockwave for some nice melee damage you end up with the desired result.
So if the arguement is that they want Focus with Build Up on a Scrapper, go play spines. if they want Fast Attacks and Low Endurance with build up, go play Katana. If you want katana/spines with different weapons, don't change a valid power for your own satisfaction. Instead, beg the devs for weapon customization. (Something promised back when CoH was released but still very far in the future).
At least that is my viewpoint on the subject.
_WAter_
***Liberty***
Panther's Grace:50 Claws/SR
Hena Muri:39 Claws/Regen
Child of Grace:32 WS
Shankilahre:32 DM/WP
Panther's Fury:33 Claws/SR
Anubia:50 DB/WP
***Guardian***
Panther's Ghost:50 Night Widow
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That said, remember this is all a long way off. I've been playing with numbers and still have to get it all to the way I like it. Then, I talk to geko and he and I go over everything to make sure he agrees with my assessments (and we are never 100% in agreement on this sort of thing!) After that, we need to get animation time, which is in very short supply. It will *probably* be in the next Update, but it may be sooner, and it may be much later.
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If I could add my 2 influence (infmay--whichever is your preference), I would like some distinctions between the hero version and villain version. I would like to see bot have advantages and disadvantages over each other. This way, it won't feel like the same power set being used for both games. I was some what disappointed to see the same powers reused in both games. I can understand that heroes and villains can have the same powers, but I think each should have their own style. Kind of like the light side and dark side of the force.
Proud member of the LEGION, and Sisterhood
well considering i didn't even disagree with you that Follow UP should be left alone, i don't see the point of that post.
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Then why do you have a problem with another set having similar stats but build up instead?
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what i have a problem with is that claws has gotten short end of the stick for 18 months and I'm glad it's getting some attention. I don't mind katana being lower end than broadsword and attacking faster than broadsword. I do not like the fact that it's currently more end efficient and faster than claws. Claws is supposed to be that low end fast set and I'm glad changes are being implemented to make it that. It's been the bastid stepchild of Spines for too long.
i'm not trying to get into an argument over this. i've just been playing the set for so long, it's almost personal at this point.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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Thunder Kick appears to have been "adjusted" from the CoH MA version. It now does less damage than air superiority, takes longer to recharge than air superiority, and its secondary effect triggers much less often than air superiority. Supposedly, this sort of inversion (a power pool attack being in all ways superior to a primary attack) shouldn't actually happen.
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When I was working with geko to get CAK to a better balance point, we noticed that Thunder Kick was doing damage based on it having a one second longer recharge time than it actually had. We corrected it at that time, despite it being a "nerf." We were pretty sure the other improvements in the set more than made up for us correcting what was essentially a bug.
Now, comparing it to Air Superiority is interesting. AS is a favorite power of mine, precisely because it is so effective. If it is true that it is 'better' than Thunder Kick, I'll talk to geko about getting TK's animation time shortened (if possible) or returning TK's damage, but increase its recharge time. In other words, I'll look into it.
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I compared it to AS because before CAK was tweaked, AS was the next viable attack for my MA/nin to take (in beta), offering both good damage and good mitigation. When TK was adjusted, it was the natural power to compare it to: I could tell what they were doing because both were in my attack chain at the time, and to see bigger numbers for AS, and AS coming back up in my tray faster, were both suddenly very noticable, as was the fact that AS was almost always putting people down, while TK was only disorienting villains once in a while. If the disorient was a long disorient, then that would make up for it, but in actual fact, it seems the disorient only lasts approximately the same amount of time it takes for a knocked down NPC to fall down and get back up again, plus or minus a second or two.
I don't use boxing a lot, but boxing also has chance to disorient. Can you look into how TK compares to boxing, since boxing and TK might actually be more directly comparable: similar damage, similar activation, similar recharge, similar secondary effect?
I think, instead of fiddling with the damage and recharge, an alternative would be to look at a suggestion MA's have been making for nearly a year: return TK to a 100% mag 1 disorient, instead of a 20% mag 2, like it started off as. Alternatively, consider keeping it a mag 2 stun, but increasing the percentage slightly to maybe 33% so it has a better chance of going off, and has a better chance of occasionally self-stacking to stun higher things.
It goes without saying that it would be really nice when percentage effects like disorient displayed a message in the combat chat so we know they are going off, even if the mez is too low in magnitude to actually take hold. Alternatively, a mini-disorient orbiting icon, like a debuff icon, to indicate that the effect is landing at all, even if its insufficiently strong to disorient.
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In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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Other mobs can break my placate on another target. Or that a mob can attack while placate is animating, still be placated and I lose my chance for a crit.
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Any more detail on this so I can get QA to try and replicate it for me? Are there certain critters that do this, or is it a general case? Do any special circumstances need to be met?
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What generally seems to happen is that, while you're going through the placate animation, the enemy hits you. They're placated, but I'm not hidden any more. It's hard to describe, but it definitely does happen.
On another issue - Assassin's strikes are supposed to be 120% of normal accuracy, right? (Whatever that actually means). In any case, there's a pretty substantial ACC bonus when you use it. (And I think it should actually be higher, considering that the target doesn't even know you're there, and is taking no defensive actions at all. I feel I should never have more than a 5% chance of missing with an AS - and even that feels a little high.)
I've been missing with mine. A LOT. Feels like about half the time, but is probably really only 1/4 of the time. This is against whites - about 40% of the misses, and yellows, about 60% of the misses. Because I'm trying desperately to have enough for a full set of DO's when I hit 12, I haven't bought a single enhancement the whole time I've played my villain, and he's up to 10 now. He has ACC slotted in the AS, but it's just an 8++ TO, so it's an even-level white enh.
Does this sound right? What *should* the accuracy % be against a white minion, with an 8++ ACC TO, with an AS? What *should* the accuracy % be against a yellow minion with an 8++ ACC TO?
Castle, I realize art-time is difficult to come by, but I thought I might suggest some quick and dirty changes.
1) Energy Melee - I'm not programmer, but it shouldn't be that difficult to simply change the color from Pink to a more Menacing Red or Dark Blue.
2) Spines - The art on spines was never great, but for a powerset conceived in 2002 and inplemented in 2003, it is forgiven. However, THORNY ASSAULT has a power, SKEWER that has fantastic artwork and should be used for spines (perhaps just change the color, or keep the same).
While we are talking about Skewer, why does a 2nd level Dominator-Secondary-powerset have a BI of 5.948!!! Oh yeah, and it has a 1.5 second activation time!!!
Um, a Spines Stalker can't reach that damage until level 26 Ripper, BI 6.389 - with a 3 second activation time) and it is the only power that is higher than this dmg. In addition, Claws doesn't have ONE POWER that exceeds a Dominator level 2 melee-power. Finally, Martial Arts has nothting close, only Eagle's Claw (BI 5.556 - with a 5 second activation time).
Is this explaination on the the lengthy spreadsheet that is too long to discuss? I just don't know how the Dominator Team Lead can get a 1.5 second / 5+ BI attack approved in a SECONDARY powerset. Meanwhile, CLAWS, SPINES, and MARTIAL ARTS can't be given ONE 5+ BI attack that activates in under 2-3 seconds.
Cheers,
SUN
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I have a question about Overload in the Energy Aura set. The recharge time according to a popular hero planner is 300 seconds and the duration is around 100 seconds. Are we to expect a 700 second penalty assessed to this power in the near future? It seems the other final powers in the other sets are around 1000 seconds.
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Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but this was reported in beta.
The reply was the power is at 1000 sec same as all the other ultimates.
The was a mistake in the Hero planer due to a typo that said the recharge time was very long not slow, that has now been corrected.
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