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Other mobs can break my placate on another target. Or that a mob can attack while placate is animating, still be placated and I lose my chance for a crit.
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Any more detail on this so I can get QA to try and replicate it for me? Are there certain critters that do this, or is it a general case? Do any special circumstances need to be met?
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What generally seems to happen is that, while you're going through the placate animation, the enemy hits you. They're placated, but I'm not hidden any more. It's hard to describe, but it definitely does happen.
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Try this sequence, it seems to generate the "missed placate" situation quite often: I think its the timing of the sequence that is just right.
Find two minions. Get into melee range of both. While hidden, assassin's strike one (presuming that one-shots him). Now, immediately fire buildup, placate the other, and then attack (I use CAK). CAK won't crit about 30-40% of the time, it seems, although it appears to be somewhat villain-type variable (some villains seem to notice you and attack you quicker than others, which might throw the timing off). Shivans, Lost, Clocks, all seem to exhibit this behavior.
I think the activation time of build up (1.4 seconds) puts the start of placate right in the middle of the second enemy's attack activation, which increases the probability of a simultaneous placate/counterattack, and that is what causes that enemy counterattack to "spoil" placate immediately after it activates.
There are many other situations where I've seen the placate misfire, including ones not involving assassin's strike anywhere near the sequence, but this one seems to consistently generate a high frequency of misses.
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Finally, Martial Arts has nothting close, only Eagle's Claw (BI 5.556 - with a 5 second activation time).
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I haven't tested this at high levels in CoV yet, but I'm pretty sure CoV EC was boosted (to 6+) same time CoH EC was, and at no time did it have a 5 second activation time: it was about 3.8 last time I checked.
Moving crane kick into tier 8 was a bit harsh (for stalkers), but the recent damage boost to CAK mostly mitigates that: MA is on the whole fine for damage (both hero and villain versions) it seems. The main issue is whether TK is a bit too low, CAK is a bit too ugly, and disorient is a bit too unreliable.
And dammit, even if it only did cobra strike damage, I want my dragon's tail back 
Also, continuing to think about thunder kick, and its 20% disorient: maybe 20% chance for very short duration mag 2 stun is reasonable if storm kick had the same effect.
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Word of "Ninjitsu" is wrong. Word of "Ninjitsu" does not exist in Japanese. "Ninjutsu" is right.
[/ QUOTE ]
A quick web search shows the spelling as virtually interchangeable, even by schools which specialize in the form. Not likely to be changed.
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Ninjitsu and Ninjutsu generally aren't the same martial art. From what I understand Ninjitsu is basically an American spin off of Ninjutsu, which often isn't even related in any way to the original art. Sometimes it may be a translation error, but it is probably used mostly as a way to catch unsuspecting people who don't notice the difference in the one letter or enough about Ninjutsu to know that isn't what they are learning.
If you consolt a translation site (try the Japanese translator Here if you don't know of any, board censors the direct link to the Japanese page so you'll have to go to it yourself) or book, you'll see Ninjitsu isn't even a japanese word, but Ninjutsu is.
Even if you look just at the parts that are different, jitsu and jutsu, there is quite a difference in their meaning. Jutsu means art or means, while jitsu means truth, reality, sincerity, fidelity, or kindness. Even if you look at it as a combination of 2 seperate Japanese words, which sounds more appropriate for a Stalker, Ninja Art or Ninja Truth/Ninja Kindness?
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Jitsu/Jutsu = No difference
Trust me. This discussion go's back 20+ years. The Japenese don't use the Arabic alphabet. Anything in English is subject to a translators interpretation.
Jutsu is more commonly used today, but Jitsu is acceptable, and understood to mean the same thing. Like Vampire and Vampyre, Demon and Daemon. Anyone who claims otherwise is nittpicking over nothing.
Centinull
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Other mobs can break my placate on another target. Or that a mob can attack while placate is animating, still be placated and I lose my chance for a crit.
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Any more detail on this so I can get QA to try and replicate it for me? Are there certain critters that do this, or is it a general case? Do any special circumstances need to be met?
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry Castle I haven't had time to read the boards since Beta. I haven't played my spines guy so no new info on the graphics and the large spine from the palm, but this placate bug is definitely still happening.
I lose all chance to critical if someone else hits me while I'm placate hidden, additionally anyone(including the placated mob) can interrupt my placate if they get off an attack that activates during my placate animation.
Because the animation is so long, this makes it very easy to waste a placate, or generate nothing more than the aggro of one less mob for a bit.
Oh and it happens with pretty much any mob, cone attacks, long animation attacks, short animation attacks, drawing of weapons for the enemy that delay an attack, all sorts of mobs can do this. I'm surprised there's any difficulty replicating it.
It usually happens when I'm teamed and fighting LTs or bosses, something I can't one-shot, where I do an AS or bone smasher to lead off, then placate, then go for an AS. But a minion can interrupt it just as easily with a well timed attack.
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I lose all chance to critical if someone else hits me while I'm placate hidden,
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Why does everyone think that placating someone in the middle of battle is going to give you a guaranteed critical? I feel I must be missing something. The way I've interpretted what I've read has been:
1. You get a critical when you attack while hidden.
2. Being hit by someone while hidden causes suppression of hide for 10 seconds.
3. Attacking while hidden causes suppression of hide for 10 seconds.
4. Hidden is a state of your stalker, not a state between you and every other foe. That is, you are either hidden or not, you are not hidden to one foe but not hidden to others.
5. Placate causes the targeted foe to de-agro AND overcomes hide suppresion/puts you into hide. It does not de-agro anyone else. It's like you went into hide after standing in the middle of a group while visible, they're all going to see you and keep attacking.
So... the sequence everyone seems to be talking about is you placate someone, so that's #5. Someone else attacks you. That seems it would invoke #2, so you are not longer hidden. Because of #4, you don't get special treatment with the foe that was placated. Yet, you want to be able to do #1. It really seems like everyone bringing this up is asking for:
A) placate to de-agro everyone
B) placate to cause #2 not to happen for some amount of time
C) placate to allow for criticals while not hidden but placate is on, or
D) #4 not to be true.
Is it one of these that people are asking for? Am I missing something here? It seems to me this is working as designed. Now, that's not to say that people don't have reason to object to the design. So, I guess I'm asking, do people see this as a problem with the implementaiton of the design (i.e. a bug) or is this a problem people have with the design itself?
Honestly, I'm just curious. I always get curious when people interpret things differently than I do. Please help me understand.
what people are asking for is to be able to as least immediately attack after using placate and get that guaranteed Crit. if you stand there for 6 seconds and get hit, sure - no crit then. but if you fire placate off, and immediately hit your attack you should get a crit. that's what we'd like.
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On some spine attacks there's the long barb that comes out and extends forward from the palm. For even the attacks that don't have that long barb the barb is appearing, but ONLY while the attack animation is going. So all of a sudden you have these huge arm length spines coming out of your hand that weren't there before and aren't there after the attack. They don't appear to be completely synced with the attack animations either.
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I think a code fix for this happened in the last week or two before Beta ended, but I'm sketchy on details. Let me know if this is still happening and I'll pass it over to the graphics team to look at.
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please please PPLEAASSSEE do NOT change this!
I was extremely saddened that when the reanimation changes for spines went in I lost my long spines. I though the changes would just remove the reanimation sequence, which I actually liked and thought was cool, but to completley remove the long spines was horrible. The new arm spines don't look feirce at all, they only come out around your wrists! If you were to punch someone with spines like that the spines wouldn't even hit, only your fist would.
I would love to have the old spines back, but in the very least don't remove my long spines. 
If you ever plan to put weapon choices in game give me a choice to keep my long spines.
I have had my spines/regen since the game launched, I've been through all the regen changes and frankly they didn't bother me, but this I feel VERY strongly about, I miss my long spines.
I'm making a spines stalker and a spines dominator cause I like them, but I really really miss the long lancing spine.
It's not even out of concept for the long spines to thrust out during an attack.
Take lunge for example, currently if you lunge at someone the long spine shoots forward stabbing them. If you remove the long spine then you'll basically be punching them as the spines on your toon come out of your wrist.
I already lost the ability to have the long spines out for the most part, please don't take them completely away from me.
have you guys seen the Blood widows with the modified spine graphics and sounds? They have metal spikes on their wrists and a giant blade for Lunge. The attacks sound like Claws since they are metal.
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[ QUOTE ]
So... the sequence everyone seems to be talking about is you placate someone, so that's #5. Someone else attacks you. That seems it would invoke #2, so you are not longer hidden. Because of #4, you don't get special treatment with the foe that was placated. Yet, you want to be able to do #1. It really seems like everyone bringing this up is asking for:
A) placate to de-agro everyone
B) placate to cause #2 not to happen for some amount of time
C) placate to allow for criticals while not hidden but placate is on, or
D) #4 not to be true.
Is it one of these that people are asking for? Am I missing something here? It seems to me this is working as designed. Now, that's not to say that people don't have reason to object to the design. So, I guess I'm asking, do people see this as a problem with the implementaiton of the design (i.e. a bug) or is this a problem people have with the design itself?
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No, that's not what we're saying. Instead, this is the scenario:
I'm fighting 1 Blood Widow by herself. I AStrike her and then scrap with her for about 15 seconds. I use Placate and just after I finish it, she does a Slash attack. She hits me with the attack and it unhides me. But, she looks around and de-agros because the Placate was successful. Unfortunately, I'm now considered "not hidden" even though she can't see me any longer. I now cannot land another crit/AStrike because I'm not regiatered as hidden. That's the bug.
This can be exploited by someone learning the graphic for placate. Just, as soon as you see the stalker starting to wave his hand in front of your face, click and attack. If you hit with it, it will "unhide" him. You won't be able to attack again because you'll be placated, but he also won't be able to crit you because the placate will wear off after approximately 8 seconds, while the hide will take 10 seconds to come back. Thus, easily exploitable to make placate useless in PvP and an annoyance in PvE.
- Ping (@iltat, @Pinghole)
Don't take it personally if you think I was mean to you. I'm an ******* to everyone.
It's a penguin thing. Pingu FTW.
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have you guys seen the Blood widows with the modified spine graphics and sounds? They have metal spikes on their wrists and a giant blade for Lunge. The attacks sound like Claws since they are metal.
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Yeah i was wondering how people would feel about Stalker/Spines graphics being changed to black/white/grey metal.
No change to the animations just a cosmetic 'touch-up' ?
Personaly i would love it, but i wanted to know how others would feel.
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Word of "Ninjitsu" is wrong. Word of "Ninjitsu" does not exist in Japanese. "Ninjutsu" is right.
[/ QUOTE ]
A quick web search shows the spelling as virtually interchangeable, even by schools which specialize in the form. Not likely to be changed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ninjitsu and Ninjutsu generally aren't the same martial art. From what I understand Ninjitsu is basically an American spin off of Ninjutsu, which often isn't even related in any way to the original art. Sometimes it may be a translation error, but it is probably used mostly as a way to catch unsuspecting people who don't notice the difference in the one letter or enough about Ninjutsu to know that isn't what they are learning.
If you consolt a translation site (try the Japanese translator Here if you don't know of any, board censors the direct link to the Japanese page so you'll have to go to it yourself) or book, you'll see Ninjitsu isn't even a japanese word, but Ninjutsu is.
Even if you look just at the parts that are different, jitsu and jutsu, there is quite a difference in their meaning. Jutsu means art or means, while jitsu means truth, reality, sincerity, fidelity, or kindness. Even if you look at it as a combination of 2 seperate Japanese words, which sounds more appropriate for a Stalker, Ninja Art or Ninja Truth/Ninja Kindness?
[/ QUOTE ]
Jitsu/Jutsu = No difference
Trust me. This discussion go's back 20+ years. The Japenese don't use the Arabic alphabet. Anything in English is subject to a translators interpretation.
Jutsu is more commonly used today, but Jitsu is acceptable, and understood to mean the same thing. Like Vampire and Vampyre, Demon and Daemon. Anyone who claims otherwise is nittpicking over nothing.
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I can never trust you. Because I am a Japanese.
The techniques which ninja used is "NINJUTSU".
Japanese does NOT pronounce it "NINJITSU". Does NOT write it "NINJITSU".
JISTU and JUTSU are really different words. You must not equate two.
Sorry, I didn't specify that completely. It seems like there are 2 placate bugs people keep talking about. From the "Current Stalker Issues - Update 30/11/05" thread:
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Bug: Other mobs can break my placate on another target. Or that a mob can attack while placate is animating, still be placated and I lose my chance for a crit. - Jesterman, 5/10/05
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I read this as 2 different problems, 1) other mobs can knock you out of hide if you wait too long after a placate and 2) if someone gets off an attack during the placate, you are actually hit and lose hide. I'm asking about #1. I agree that #2 is a bug, or at least a serious annoyance in PvE and like you said is very exploitable in PvP. It happens to me all the time in PvE, and I've just started trying to watch for the attacks coming and time placate just right, but even then, you almost never see those friggin' punches coming.
Anyway, what I'm asking is, are people actually distinguishing this as 2 different problems? Or is everyone agreeing with one or the other and thinking the "placate" bug is that one and not realizing that there are two things being described here. Because I have seen people talk about both of these circumstances, and while they are both things that happen while placating, they are very different. One of these things seems like a bug, while the other, at least to me, just doesn't make sense to be asking to change.
if the window is small enough, the two are the same problem. I should have a good 3 seconds after hitting placate to fire my attack off and get a Crit. That placate needs to stick for that time.
If you take #1 out a bit further, say 8 seconds, and I'd agree that's a bit long to expect hide to work when being attacked.
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Wait! I think I see it now. They're not the exact same problem, but they would both be affected by one obvious solution: Make it so that if you placate, being hit doesn't drop you out of hide for some amount of time. You're saying if you had something like 3 seconds after a placate before being hit would drop you out of hide, then this would solve problem of the mob you are placating attacking you as you placate. Additionally, it would make it so that you had a little window to get off a critical before someone else knocked you out of hidden. I actually rather like this idea... since then it would be useful to pop a placate in the middle of a fight, rather than having to wait until the last guy. It's not that you're using placate to disappear entirely, you are then using placate to give yourself a critical on your next hit (as well as de-agro someone). That would be fun.
Bingo! that's exactly what i was trying to get across.
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I'm all for an animation change on spines.
The white dog-doo animations for Spines are one-step up from some of the Stone Tanker animations.
I'm all for the Spines going the way of Thorny Assault or Metal. Then again, I'm all for Thorny Assault just becoming a Stalker set... it does better damage than Spines, better utility, and lower activation times. This set clearly benefitted from 2+ years of experience and testing.
Cheers,
SUN
you've already got a thread where people are disagreeing with your take on spines, keep that fight in there.
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[ QUOTE ]
So... the sequence everyone seems to be talking about is you placate someone, so that's #5. Someone else attacks you. That seems it would invoke #2, so you are not longer hidden. Because of #4, you don't get special treatment with the foe that was placated. Yet, you want to be able to do #1.
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You'll notice that the sequence I posted above does not require an additional mob to break placate: it specifically involves the villain you are placating himself breaking the placate when he attacks at roughly the same time as you placate him. There's something about that specific behavior that seems wrong to me.
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[ QUOTE ]
Jitsu/Jutsu = No difference
Trust me. This discussion go's back 20+ years. The Japenese don't use the Arabic alphabet. Anything in English is subject to a translators interpretation.
Jutsu is more commonly used today, but Jitsu is acceptable, and understood to mean the same thing. Like Vampire and Vampyre, Demon and Daemon. Anyone who claims otherwise is nittpicking over nothing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, speaking as someone who's Japanese, native Japanese words typically have unambiguous phonetics (unlike imported words). Japanese borrows Chinese characters for Kanji writing, but usually (because even while stealing Chinese writing we realize that learning Chinese hurts your head too much 
) notates Kanji characters with furigana - essentially a pronounciation guide (because Japanese speakers can recognize words when spoken even if they cannot automatically recognize every single Kanji character for them, so a "sound-out" in effect is an aid to the reader). Furigana uses hiragana characters, the Japanese phonetic alphabet, and the characters essentially always have unambiguous pronounciations.
Nin(ji/ju)tsu has to have a written form, and whatever the written form is, it ought to specify precisely how it ought to be pronounced, even if colloquialisms (even Japanese ones) blur the pronounciations. As it turns out, Jutsu and Jitsu as word fragments have actual meanings that can allow you to deduce which way it ought to go. Jutsu = art, Jutsu has a variety of meanings, none of them seemingly applicable to the compound word "ninjitsu."
Here's someone who goes through the process for "jujutsu".
I'm certainly not an expert, and years of Japanese school have long since worn off, but one thing I am sure about is that setting aside colloquial shifts in pronounciation, either "ninjutsu" is right, or "ninjitsu" is right, but they cannot both be right, because Japanese doesn't often have such similar alternate pronounciations for the same character for the same meaning tied to its vocabulary (it can have completely dissimilar pronounciations for the same character for the same approximate meaning, but one is essentially always considered standard in any compound word it appears in).
"Vampire" and "Vampyre," "Demon" and "Daemon" are alternate spelling for the same word, with the same basic pronounciation and meaning. "Ninjutsu" and "Ninjitsu" are romanized versions of two different words in Japanese in terms of how they are pronounced, and therefore how they are written, and therefore what they mean. If "Ninjitsu" means the same thing as "Ninjutsu" its essentially because both terms have passed into becoming proper nouns: as such, neither actually has any meaning whatsoever except as a label.
But even if we call all print copying machines "Xerox" machines, we can still trace the lineage of that word to its original meaning. And if a hundred years from now, people are calling them "Zerox" machines, we can still say that technically, "Zerox" with a "Z" is wrong, and "Xerox" with an "X" is technically correct, because "Xerox" machines are originally named for the machines produced by the Xerox company, who in turn named them for the "xerography" process.
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dominators have a lower brawl value than us. In terms of our brawl value, that 5.948 is really a 4.3.
also, eagles claw was recently increased to 6.3333 and Crane Kick was also increased to 4.555.
claws therefore has 2 attacks that outdamage Skewer, as does Spine and MA
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