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Oh wait, all ATs are superfluous.
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Strickly speaking, this isn't true.
All-Blaster and All-Scrapper teams underperform terribly.
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By saying "All tanks are superflous" the OP is saying that tanks are beyond what is required. That is, in any given team make-up a tank could be replaced and things would still function.
And I'm saying that all ATs are superflous. If you've got a Pentad, for example, I'm not saying that you can replace all of them with a Blaster, I'm saying that you can replace *any one* of them with something and still be effective.
The "something" depends on the circumstance, but in any team, any single AT can be replaced with *something* and still be effective.
And for those that decry the "cookie cutter" team requirements of other MMPs, that is a Good Thing.
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Oh wait, all ATs are superfluous.
[/ QUOTE ]
Strickly speaking, this isn't true.
All-Blaster and All-Scrapper teams underperform terribly.
All-Tank teams can at least spread out aggro when a member gets in trouble.
Tanks are only superfluous when there are no Controllers or Defenders on a team.
A rare occasion, I know...
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I disagree heartily. An all-blaster team with one or two /Ice or /TA Blasters on it is like a wave of destruction. One with a couple /Devs holds its enemies with its caltrops and picks them off. An all-scrapper team goes through enemies like a scythe through wheat. If one or two are Regens it is just sick how fast they are.
Up to AVs, any team of any composition can do CoH missions on Heroic since I5.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
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Strangely, I don't have issues running missions on heroic with any duo, let alone tanker/blaster or tanker/nova kheld.
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I don't, either. I'm sure that even a Ice/Ice Tank + Claws/SR Scrapper duo can run missions in the Hollows on Heroic by being careful, using Rest every time it comes up, and buying inspirations before every mission.
This doesn't mean that playing that way would be much fun.
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And oh yes, I play on pickup teams quite regularly. I see all sorts of 8-ball team configurations work well and all sorts that don't. The only common denominator I can pick out is the teams that make no effort to coordinate and work together are debt waiting to happen and far moreso than in i4.
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I have an equal and opposite experince in a PuG. 2 Storm Defenders and my Melee Blaster were teamed up in a -1 mission. Easy.
Except for the fact that all the enemies were consistanly pushed outside their Buff auras. They were utterly unhelpful to me, and I was utterly unhelpful to them. Skill didn't enter into it, we were all excellent players.
I went an logged in with another toon, which wasn't what I wanted to do at that time.
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When I stopped, in i4, trying to boost my +defense from power pools and substituted the medicine pool and aid self, my survivability went up, not down. In i5, I don't have and I don't miss the medicine pool and I didn't pick up pool defenses.
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You choice. This has nothing to do with the numbers in-game. By level 30 or so, all you are doing with this approach is spiting yourself. You will eventually have all your attacks slotted. When that happens, any amount of defenses are good, since there is nothing else to do with the slots.
My Blaster has the entire Fitness and Fighting pool slotted up, and I didn't ignore 6-slotting my attacks. I don't see why you respecced here, because there aren't any powers to drop your defenses FOR. This, as I said, only applies 30+, of course.
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Groups going after content that is closer to everyone's level plays directly into making me more survivable, and that plays directly into me providing a better benefit to my team.
After all, a defeated blaster deals no damage.
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True, but irrelevant. My point was that a 6-Defender team that needs more damage won't get another Defender. Blasters/Scrappers simply have more damage, and when damage is being reduced by the level mod, more is good.
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The only content I would really want a tank for would be fighting an arch-villain, and even then a couple controllers work wonders, or a defender-buffed scrapper, or even a dwarf-form kheldian.
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You follow up this with....
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Fighting +level cons means enemies inherently hit more often and hit harder, and one's own defenses and powers and accuracy are lowered versus them. Taking return fire from +0 to +2 level minions is a lot differant than taking return fire from +3 to +5 or higher level minions. My blaster can two-shot a +1 minion without much stress and in 3-4 shots knock out a comparable Lt.
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That. Be consistant. Assuming a Tank has no role, then pointing out a situation where a Tank is most useful? Maybe we should craft a specific Team to argue with.
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It used to be "why get a blaster when you can get a scrapper who can do almost as much damage and require almost no looking after?" Now its "we need damage, any blasters or scrappers LFT?"
[/ QUOTE ]
You're welcome to your opinon, however, even after the nerfs, Scrappers..
1. Do more damage than Blasters. This is no longer debatable, and has been buffed into outright fact.
2. Are still more survivable than Blasters. I'd take Scrappers for the Status protection alone.
While I'm not the type of person that will Min/Max my Team, someone concerned only with maximum efficiency will not recuit a Blaster after level 25 or so.
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Err... really? Hmmm.... Well lets see, my sonic defender seems to enjoy the benefits of Vigilance. It gives me a lot more latitude to contribute damage to help defeat the bad guys, while sustaining disruption field, and using sonic siphon on tougher mobs, without worrying about having enough end for the next round of sonic bubbles....
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This is a great use for Vigilance! I agree that that's the optimal thing a Bubbler can do.
Watch helplessly as everyone dies, and use the Vigilance bonus to Blast Away/Take Aggro from the people in trouble, die yourself (since you can't bubble yourself), and then get debt before the team wipe. 
That's thinking outside the Box, I agree. My teammates would never expect me to ignore them and start Blasting my way out of trouble.
In fact, I'm not sure the activation on Mental Blast would even finish before someone who got lucky-hit through a bubble gets hit again and dies....hmm, have to test this.
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So you want every victory to be easy, a guaranteed win? Are you hear for level 50 or the journey thereto?
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I play mostly Defenders. I get kicked if the going gets rough...for not doing my job well enough.
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So, play on heroic where things are your level (boosts your real accuracy, real damage, and real survivability in comparison), complete missions faster for the mission xp bonus, enjoy the increased experience overall, and stop thinking that invincible is a standard for anyone.
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Here I'd disagree. If I could play the Old (Issue 4) Heroic level of difficulty, I would. Unfortunately, Heroic in Issue 5 matches up fairly well with Invincible in Issue 4.
So, from a gameplay perspective, I can only choose "Old Invincible" and go up from there.
If there was a setting to fight -1's or -2's in missions (to simulate Issue 4) I would do so. There isn't. We are all playing on Invincible by design.
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Yes I realize my answer is deeply sarcastic, but I find your assertion that you are constantly in over your head to be disengenuous at worst and indicative of a stubborn refusal to learn new tactics that aren't dependant on abilities that make fights trivially simple and reduce the "risk" in the risk vs. reward equation to near-zero consistently.
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The Issue 5 Nerfs have made it so, Yes, Indeed, me and everyone I play with are in over thier head. This was especially apparent when my friends and I rerolled new toons, that were suffering under nerfs that were designed to limit L35+ toons.
Did we cope by trying new Tactics? Yes.
Did we use the new Rest every time it came up and take frequent breaks? Yes.
Did we learn new and interesting levels of detail about the AI? Yes.
Did we level? Yes.
Was it fun? No.
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So you ignore your entire secondary and wonder why you aren't as effective? /boggle.
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There's actually an (outdated because of Vigilance) formula for this. IT works quite well. Any Defender with more than 4 slots in Blasts prior to Level 20 is a bad one. I thought of it as overly sarcastic until I started asking Defenders about their builds.
Sure enough, the ones with attacks slotted early weren't doing much for the team.
Of course, I'm falling afoul of the Forum Assumption that "Anyone with a Strong Opinion has Doesn't Know What They are Talking About." 
I get told I'm misinformed constantly, mostly be people that don't know that I've played every single primary powerset beyond 22.
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The entire argument that "I play to be a superhero" tends to be based on the unspoken last-half of that sentence "...compared to the others on my team." Now that everyone on a team has to actually play their charcters to make more than a "how fast do we win" differance, those that used to win or lose team-level content without needing a team to win or lose are suddenly "not super" and feel "the game sucks".
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This isn't just wrong, this is borderline insulting.
My opinions aren't just my own - they are shaped by the aggregate of me and the people I play with. When I mention that I've seen something, it doesn't mean I'm championing it.
When I say "This will cause bad XP/Hour" I'm not saying I play that way, I'm supporting an argument that people who DO play that way won't recuit Blasters. I say that because I've seen it. Do I personally agree with that? no.
Keep this stuff out of your posts. It just isn't helpful in any way. Thanks.
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
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Up to AVs, any team of any composition can do CoH missions on Heroic since I5
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Does the fact that I duoed a friends Vanessa Devore Mission him using an Ill/Kin troller and me using my En/En blaster make the game broken?
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Up to AVs, any team of any composition can do CoH missions on Heroic since I5
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Does the fact that I duoed a friends Vanessa Devore Mission him using an Ill/Kin troller and me using my En/En blaster make the game broken?
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope, it makes you two 133t.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
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I5 has corrected a lot of "man that's just plain broken" that existed in CoH. While I disagree with the method of the corrections in some cases I cannot argue with the result.
[/ QUOTE ]
this may be true (it really depends on your definition of broken) but it is
unarguable that it has, at the same time, broken some other things.
case in point: i ran a test and found that one of my characters was
killed by 5 even-level underlings before i could kill one of them. this is
so broken (to my mind broken much worse than any of the "broken"
things that were "fixed" in I5 (multiple pets, for example)) that i haven't
played the character since.
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Meaning invincible is now a challenge. Its the hardest setting in the game. This somehow surprises you or strikes you as unreasonable that the hardest setting is actually, well, hard?
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that really depends on the character, doesn't it? one of my i4 characters
ran (and struggled) at Unyielding. it was hard. it was fun. in i5, though,
Unyielding has so far provided less challenge: for solo or small teams i'll
be cranking it up to Invincible.
I5 may have "fixed" some things -- and many of those are arguable --
but it is unarguable that it has broken many others. it's far from clear to
me why this is a good thing.
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I5 may have "fixed" some things -- and many of those are arguable --
but it is unarguable that it has broken many others.
[/ QUOTE ]
If it was unarguable, I really don't think we'd be on page 40 of this thread right now. That's quite a silly thing to say.
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If you can call replacing old imbalances with new ones corrections, then sure, I agree with you. Unfortunately the new problems are just as bad as the old ones. Tanks are now superfluous, for example. Suppression makes travel powers just as imbalanced as they were before, just in different ways, and without fixing the alleged problems it was supposed to fix.
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The changes in I5 remind me of a statement from a now-ancient computer text, which I have moved into my signature block:
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
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Great_Scott said:
You're welcome to your opinon, however, even after the nerfs, Scrappers..
1. Do more damage than Blasters. This is no longer debatable, and has been buffed into outright fact.
2. Are still more survivable than Blasters. I'd take Scrappers for the Status protection alone.
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Um, I always figured that the Blasters were the ones with the damage.
When did all this change?
Exactly Strange.
Fact is, numbers and percentages mean jack when your actually fighting mobs of baddies. It doesn't matter what combo of AT's you have. Yes, some combos may work better, but that won't stop the randomness of a baddie getting off that one shot that [Censored] your whole team. AI changed in I5. Mobs are much smarter and can resist much more.
If you are a die hard mmorpg fan, your being bread to goto CoV right now. You will get over to CoV, love the new content and by this time next year, you will be nerfed and bored. Everyone will be PL'd to 50 and we will still be unhappy. Before you know it, CoH doesn't look so bad anymore.
It comes down to agreeing to disagree. Mostly this thread has been arguments about how this update changed the game for us. I have read maybe 3 out of the 40 pages that actually posted helpful things for the rednames to consider changing. Changes that actually made sense.
Not being able to herd on Invinc with just your tank isn't a game breaking change, it can be worked around. So therefore it gets ignored. Say one good thing the power "Burn" did that doesn't have anything to do with achieving great XP and I bet the rednames consider changing it back. The devs are looking to make this game a challenge, it keeps you playing.
I see nothing that a tank could do that a good controller and/or a defender couldn't do anways. I have been on teams where the tank wasn't needed. Except for being the main target. But with good holds and debuffs, it wasn't anything we couldn't handle.
[ QUOTE ]
--------------------
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, do you actually have a copy of that book? Mine went where the woodbine twineth a long time ago....
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
English does not borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and rifles through their pockets for loose grammar.
|
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--------------------
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, do you actually have a copy of that book? Mine went where the woodbine twineth a long time ago....
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmmm .. methinks a little paraphrasing would make that fit CoH quite well.
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Exactly Strange.
Fact is, numbers and percentages mean jack when your actually fighting mobs of baddies. It doesn't matter what combo of AT's you have. Yes, some combos may work better, but that won't stop the randomness of a baddie getting off that one shot that [Censored] your whole team. AI changed in I5. Mobs are much smarter and can resist much more.
If you are a die hard mmorpg fan, your being bread to goto CoV right now. You will get over to CoV, love the new content and by this time next year, you will be nerfed and bored. Everyone will be PL'd to 50 and we will still be unhappy. Before you know it, CoH doesn't look so bad anymore.
It comes down to agreeing to disagree. Mostly this thread has been arguments about how this update changed the game for us. I have read maybe 3 out of the 40 pages that actually posted helpful things for the rednames to consider changing. Changes that actually made sense.
Not being able to herd on Invinc with just your tank isn't a game breaking change, it can be worked around. So therefore it gets ignored. Say one good thing the power "Burn" did that doesn't have anything to do with achieving great XP and I bet the rednames consider changing it back. The devs are looking to make this game a challenge, it keeps you playing.
I see nothing that a tank could do that a good controller and/or a defender couldn't do anways. I have been on teams where the tank wasn't needed. Except for being the main target. But with good holds and debuffs, it wasn't anything we couldn't handle.
[/ QUOTE ]
No offense, but if they truly want a challenging game, why not go the way they started with the rescur/escort style missions, it was a godo step ini the right direction, and one of the few shinies in the pile of poo that is I5. Content is the way to go not total alteration and alianation. *goes back to Freedom Force where he can actually feel like a hero....despite how hocky the characters are*
Darnit all. If I can't defeat a mission single-handedly every time without having to ever worry about dying, what's the point of me being a hero? 
[ QUOTE ]
AI changed in I5. Mobs are much smarter and can resist much more.
[/ QUOTE ]
Mob AI is exactly the same as before. Only difference is they will try to run around a bit more. I've played this game for just over a year now and there has been very little deviation in their behavior. Believe me, if they did something they sure don't show it in-game. They are as dumb as ever. You can still herd em up and pile them on top of each other just like before and they don't do anything to couteract that.
They may seem smarter now that tanks can't hold agro like they used to. They'll attack whoever is doing the most damage and even agro on healers, but that's not a deviation in their AI. They've always done that before running missions without a tank. go back to when tanks could hold agro no matter what and it seemed like they were totally stupid, as they mindlessly beat on a tank they can't possibly kill. Now with all the taunt nerfs they 'seem' more intelligent as they ignore the tank. If a tank isn't in all the mobs faces and actively damaging them to build agro they will turn on anyone doing damage. I4 was the start of it and I5 made it even more so.
Mob AI is as lame as ever and that's a fact. That and solid content for this game are what need tweaking, not our powersets.
[ QUOTE ]
You're welcome to your opinon, however, even after the nerfs, Scrappers..
1. Do more damage than Blasters. This is no longer debatable, and has been buffed into outright fact.
2. Are still more survivable than Blasters. I'd take Scrappers for the Status protection alone.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll have to disagree with you Great_Scott. Although scrappers did see a bump in damage output, blasters also have the 500% damage cap. My blaster can self-buff himself with Aim and Build Up for 8 seconds of damage no scrapper can match on his own without using inspirations or other buffs from other characters. Even then most of my energy/energy blaster's powers have very fast animations compared to some of the melee sets and I can chain more attacks than most scrappers.
Scrappers have the need to slot defenses and I rarely come across a build that has more than 5 attacks 6 slotted, while my energy blaster has 8 attacks 6 slotted. 2 of which are nukes (nova and LRM rocket).
When it comes to pure damage output blasters are king and they always should be. If not, then why be a blaster?
As a side note, you could possibly pick out a certain set vs. certain set to prove me wrong, but in doing so you only show that needs to be fixed as blasters should always be the top for raw damage since they have zero defenses other than the now highly nerfed power pool sets.
Although, they can get nice smash/lethal resistance with temp invul and force of nature in the epic power pools, but that's not til 41 and over.
Also, I'm not even sure how good those are since I5 because I don't use that epic, I use Munitions on my energy blaster. Munitions has body armor, but last I heard it only had like a 9.5% base, so it's nice to have, but not ubar resistance.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
--------------------
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, do you actually have a copy of that book? Mine went where the woodbine twineth a long time ago....
[/ QUOTE ]
You can get copies, hard- or soft-bound ($98 hard, $88 soft) as print-to-order copies from microfilm of an original copy on non-acid paper; go to AbeBooks and put in the book title and author's last name, or use this link to go directly to the search results.
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
Well, i can see this thread has degraded. No comments from the devs will happen, and as people post more and more, it gets further from the topic.
We should let this thread die in peace.
S.Cold.
Level 53: Arrows/Devices/Munitions Blaster
....and hopeless Science-Natzi.
[ QUOTE ]
Well, i can see this thread has degraded. No comments from the devs will happen, and as people post more and more, it gets further from the topic.
We should let this thread die in peace.
S.Cold.
[/ QUOTE ]
Like a dev replys often; they do not even reply in the official dev threads that do not get off topic 
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
[ QUOTE ]
Darnit all. If I can't defeat a mission single-handedly every time without having to ever worry about dying, what's the point of me being a hero?
[/ QUOTE ]
Funny, I didn't read any such sentiment in his post. Sounded to me like he was just saying that he'd rather the missions/mobs changed instead of the heroes. Next time you decide to wow us all with your witty sarcasm, you might want to reply to a post that's at least relevant to your comment.
Or just troll...that's always fun too. 
[ QUOTE ]
Sounded to me like he was just saying that he'd rather the missions/mobs changed instead of the heroes
[/ QUOTE ]
Why everyone would feel all the better if everything around them changes but they remain the same is beyond me. I'd feel kinda left behind in that type of situation actually.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, i can see this thread has degraded. No comments from the devs will happen, and as people post more and more, it gets further from the topic.
We should let this thread die in peace.
S.Cold.
[/ QUOTE ]
Like a dev replys often; they do not even reply in the official dev threads that do not get off topic
[/ QUOTE ]
they do in private messages
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[ QUOTE ]
Sounded to me like he was just saying that he'd rather the missions/mobs changed instead of the heroes
[/ QUOTE ]
Why everyone would feel all the better if everything around them changes but they remain the same is beyond me. I'd feel kinda left behind in that type of situation actually.
[/ QUOTE ]
Right. I suppose it's totally illogical to want changes to the AI and environment in order to increase the level of challenge instead of taking certain things away from our own characters.
When I was in the military, we were required to qualify with a certain proficiency in firing an M-16. You started at 200 meters and fired while sitting and standing. To increase the challenge, you moved back to 300 meters and fired while sitting and kneeling. To further increase the challenge, you moved back to 500 meters and fired from the prone position.
I guess in your perfect world, everyone would stay at 200 meters and then, to increase the difficulty, you would have to file the sights off your rifle. Then what? Perhaps poke out one eye to throw off your depth perception, or maybe force you to shoot with mittens on? God forbid the challenge come from an external source instead of having to handicap yourself, right?
Your comment is nothing more than flippant fanboiism.
If we could do in the real world what we can do to the virtual world then the options outside of moving further from the target would include altering the laws of physics, causing the tagets to dodge, diminishing the hand-eye coordination of the marksmen, etc.
If I were doing this in a d20 tabletop game, I might think the players are having too easy of a time hitting the enemies and not being hit by them. I can increase the +tohit of the enemies by 5, or I can decrease the AC of the players by 5, or maybe I could decrease the AC of the players by 2 and increase the tohit of the enemies by 3.
Ultimately the measure of power in an environment is a relationship between the character and the environment. Whether I give all enemies the ability to ignore 20% of damage resistance or I lower all player damage resistance by 20% is largely irrelevant. Player characters take more damage on resist-oriented builds.
Like or dislike the changes (I like some and dislike others) the entire "don't nerf me but boost the environment" argument is irrational. A boost to the enviornment is just another kind of nerf after all.
Be that as it may Kat... the psychological impact is drastically different. People are attached to **HOW** their heroes/characters are.
If you increase the difficulty via the environment, people will rise to the challenge.
If you increase the difficulty via character nerfs, people will rise in complaint.
Same net game results, drastically different player results. This is precisely why the devs should have looked at the boss upgrade they did and backed off from and changed it slightly then tried again. They were on the right path there but implemented it wrong. They could have tried many other options. They CHOSE not to.
Something I wish they had tried... Make all +0 minions act like +1 minions with regards to Hit chance against heroes and damage (both giving and receiving). Keep them the same otherwise. It would have made the game more challenging YET not made it substantially harder for low damage ATs to accomplish mob defeats.
But instead, they chose to alter the characters and make them dramatically weaker rather than tweak the mobs. It makes far more sense to balance by giving and taking rather than TAKE TAKE TAKE. It's just like training a child or a pet. You don't use *just* positive or *just* negative reinforcement. You use both. You punish bad behavior and reward good behavior.
It works the same in game balance too.
Virtue: multiple characters.
CoH/V: Woot! Maybe Fun is to be had once again.
Ack! RUN! Regen is glowing mean & green!
If it reduces you, it's a nerf.
If it buffs the mobs, it's challenge.
They are not the same.
[ QUOTE ]
Oh wait, all ATs are superfluous.
[/ QUOTE ]
Strickly speaking, this isn't true.
All-Blaster and All-Scrapper teams underperform terribly.
All-Tank teams can at least spread out aggro when a member gets in trouble.
Tanks are only superfluous when there are no Controllers or Defenders on a team.
A rare occasion, I know...
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?