[ QUOTE ]
With all due respect, that makes no sense at all. If we're such a minority compared to the casual player, why spend all this time and energy making changes that affect only 10% of the players? Especially seeing as how we DID NOT WANT these changes (nerfs). That's the problem... no one gained anything from the I5 nerfs. The casual players are largely unaffected and the rest of us are angry.
On the other hand, if they had chosen to spend their time to ADD MORE UNIQUE CONTENT, well then EVERYONE would benefit. There are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of posts to back up what I'm saying.
The nerf bat is an industry-wide problem nowadays. This just happens to be one extreme case out of many. Devs of ALL GAMES need to learn that the nerf bat is easy to swing, but all-but-impossible to stop swinging. This is because of the simple fact that - as with everything in life - it is far easier to destroy (eg; nerf) than it is to create (eg; add new content).
There are smarter ways to achieve "balance" in this game than to nerf the living bejesus out of everything. Making bad guys stronger was a start, but it was an unfinished idea. Not a bad idea, just an unfinished one.
I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about from another game... Desert Combat (the BF1942 mod). The problem was spawn-camping... killing people as they spawned into their bases, and therefore racking up a serious score. There were a gazillion posts on ideas of how to essentially "nerf" the game to keep people from spawn-camping. Everyone was arguing about these ideas for months.
I told them, if you want to stop spawn-camping, you need to take away people's DESIRE to do it... make it so that you don't get any points for killing someone who has just recently spawned in their base, say, using a 30-second timer. It was such a simple solution compared to all of the nerf-o-rama's that everyone else was suggesting, and it didn't negatively affect any other aspect of gameplay at all.
Without trying to sound like I'm patting myself on the back, heh, the devs need to learn to take this sort of logic and apply it to CoH. Forget the nerf... there are smarter ways to fix problems. Nerfing is a REactive solution. They need to think more PROactively.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bravo! Well written!
Just to make my opinions clear, I do realize that there were some "balance" issues in the game, but the nerf bat is a cop-out solution that is used 95% of the time in this industry... when it should really only be used 5% of the time. It's become the de-facto method of solving ALL balance issues in games, when it should only ever be a last resort.
C'mon devs, you used creative thought to MAKE this game, now use that same creative thought to FIX it.
[ QUOTE ]
Just to make my opinions clear, I do realize that there were some "balance" issues in the game, but the nerf bat is a cop-out solution that is used 95% of the time in this industry... when it should really only be used 5% of the time. It's become the de-facto method of solving ALL balance issues in games, when it should only ever be a last resort.
C'mon devs, you used creative thought to MAKE this game, now use that same creative thought to FIX it.
[/ QUOTE ]
A lot goes on behind the scenes that never makes it to the public.
Granted, but regardless, it seems the end result is almost always the same... nerf. This industry needs to pull itself up out of this downward trend. If they come up with inventive solutions behind the scenes, great... use them.
[ QUOTE ]
Granted, but regardless, it seems the end result is almost always the same... nerf. This industry needs to pull itself up out of this downward trend. If they come up with inventive solutions behind the scenes, great... use them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually it's just you thinking that everything gets nerfed. Most poeple only ever see the bad yet ignore the things that were actually positive increases. It's a matter of perception not actually matching reality.
Huh? They publicly listed all of the nerfs that were done, just as they do in all games where nerfs are done. I didn't "percieve" anything, I just read them off of this website (as with other websites of other games).
Look, I don't honestly care who likes the nerfs vs who doesn't. My point is this... nerfs cause big "upheavals" like this in all of the games I've ever seen nerfed...and therefore the game industry should figure out these alternatives... and use them 
There are better ways to solve problems than simply resorting to the ol' standby called nerfing.
Thinking a little more about what you just said...
It sounds like maybe we're talking about two different things... the definition of "nerf" vs. the purpose of a nerf. The definition is, in simple terms, "a change that negatively affects a player, enemy, item/weapon, etc." The purpose of a nerf is completely different... to enhance gameplay overall.
Whether anyone likes or dislikes the nerfs done in I5 is really besides the point... the point is, again, that there is enough of a public outcry over nerfing in this game and many others that the industry would be wise to find other more positive ways to balance their games... and then put those ideas into action.
Anyway, that's enough for me, I've made my point
Have fun folks
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Granted, but regardless, it seems the end result is almost always the same... nerf. This industry needs to pull itself up out of this downward trend. If they come up with inventive solutions behind the scenes, great... use them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually it's just you thinking that everything gets nerfed. Most poeple only ever see the bad yet ignore the things that were actually positive increases. It's a matter of perception not actually matching reality.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you mean 'trade off' correct? cause a Nerf is a Nerf nothing 'positive' about it... unless your refering to what you precieve as 'benefits'?
Mog
lvl 50 former tank
I should point out, btw, that whenever I've used the term "nerf" I was referring the strict definition of it, not the purpose.
[ QUOTE ]
Thinking a little more about what you just said...
[/ QUOTE ]
I was actually more just referring to our nature to focus on negative things and ignore positives in favor of complaining about those negatives. Many things actually got buffed in i5 that nobody seemed to care about but they certainly weren't complaining about them.
[ QUOTE ]
It sounds like maybe we're talking about two different things... the definition of "nerf" vs. the purpose of a nerf. The definition is, in simple terms, "a change that negatively affects a player, enemy, item/weapon, etc." The purpose of a nerf is completely different... to enhance gameplay overall.
[/ QUOTE ]
From a perspective standpoint any nerf to the mobs is actually just a buff to the players and any nerf to the players is a buff to the mobs. The real problem is that buffs/nerfs to villains affect all players and tend to have an overall greater impact than what was intended and as such don't get to be used. The general assumption that they made the game harder for all is starting to get on my nerves bacause any non blapper blaster was actually buffed as were defenders for the most part.
[ QUOTE ]
Whether anyone likes or dislikes the nerfs done in I5 is really besides the point... the point is, again, that there is enough of a public outcry over nerfing in this game and many others that the industry would be wise to find other more positive ways to balance their games... and then put those ideas into action.
[/ QUOTE ]
I see this more of a problem with the public than with the industry itself. When people start comparing alterations to their character to having their eyes poked out they need to step away from the computer.
Heh, of course people are going to focus on the negatives... that's just human nature really. Evolution may someday change that, but we surely won't on this forum
[ QUOTE ]
The real problem is that buffs/nerfs to villains affect all players and tend to have an overall greater impact than what was intended and as such don't get to be used.
[/ QUOTE ]
Like I said, I thought buffing the villians was a good idea, just unfinished. Maybe they could've buffed the higher-level baddies, while leaving the lower-level ones alone (since casual players are less likely to get to the higher levels in the game). Maybe they could've made it work, maybe not. But you bring up a good point about it affecting everyone (pros and noobs alike), which only strengthens the idea of coming up with an alternative to nerfing/buffing (or however we want to look at it). I'm talking about thinking outside the box..
Examples:
If they don't want people PLing, take away their reason to PL by either reducing the upper-level experience-grind or by giving us something else to do that doesn't require gaining levels, like building weapons/items or some other type of tinkering. I know bases are on the way and that's a great start!
If they want to even the playing field for PvP, ok, instead of nerfing, why don't they designate one of the servers as "pro-players-only" while leaving the rest for noobs? Or maybe they could assign everyone some sort of status level based on the total number of game hours we've played (or whatever). This staus level thinger would be displayed for everyone to see so we'd all have a decent way of telling the more experienced players apart from the newer players. The status level would be something earnable by everyone, giving noobs something to work for. Either of these could not only keep the noobs from getting their butts handed to them in PvP by the pros (by letting them know that they might want to think twice about taking on a pro player), but could also give the pros a way to avoid noob pickup teams in PvE.
Just a handful of outside the box ideas completely off the top of my head... took all of ten minutes to think of them. Sure, they need a bit of fleshing-out, but they are simple ideas that do not involve any sort of nerfing.
[ QUOTE ]
I see this more of a problem with the public than with the industry itself.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, this is not the way business works. While educating customers certainly helps to this effect, a business cannot rely on the public "coming around" to their way of thinking. I know this very well because I've run my own business for the past 5+ years. If a percentage of your customers don't like what you offer, you either make changes or lose those customers. Period. Telling the customer they're wrong is not only naive, but it's a sure way of losing that customer. If CoH can afford to lose the people that don't like being nerfed, then by all means nerf away.
In the case of us "pros", we may not be in the majority, but we are the more stable/guaranteed source of ongoing income for the devs. "Guaranteed" (I use the term loosely because nothing is truly guaranteed) month-to-month income is a very valuable thing for any business to hold onto.
One thing we should all keep in mind is that the MMORPG industry is still very young and immature at this point. The problems we all experience and the arguments we have will get resolved over time, but it's not gonna happen overnight. You're never going to please everyone, but when a certain style of problem-solving has had a history of severely and consistently upsetting a percentage of the paying public (ie; many games have been through this same nerfing-predicament), it's time to find a new method.
Ok, heh, I reallllly have to get off of this now... seriously this time hehe. Best of luck to all of you
PS: I'm not trying to trounce on anyone's ideas or opinions, so I hope no one thinks I'm disprespecting them. I'm not
[ QUOTE ]
Like I said, I thought buffing the villians was a good idea, just unfinished. Maybe they could've buffed the higher-level baddies, while leaving the lower-level ones alone (since casual players are less likely to get to the higher levels in the game). Maybe they could've made it work, maybe not. But you bring up a good point about it affecting everyone (pros and noobs alike), which only strengthens the idea of coming up with an alternative to nerfing/buffing (or however we want to look at it). I'm talking about thinking outside the box..
[/ QUOTE ]
You've got to understand the problem before you can come up with an appropriate solution. There were multiple problems involved with the game that it was too easy for some and too difficult for others. They were actually attempting to even this playing field with a combination of reduced abilities for heroes/villains and some alterations for heroes on the plus side as well.
[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, this is not the way business works. While educating customers certainly helps to this effect, a business cannot rely on the public "coming around" to their way of thinking. I know this very well because I've run my own business for the past 5+ years. If a percentage of your customers don't like what you offer, you either make changes or lose those customers. Period. Telling the customer they're wrong is not only naive, but it's a sure way of losing that customer. If CoH can afford to lose the people that don't like being nerfed, then by all means nerf away.
[/ QUOTE ]
The real quesiton is "How many players were already lost due to the game simply being too easy for them?"
[ QUOTE ]
In the case of us "pros", we may not be in the majority, but we are the more stable/guaranteed source of ongoing income for the devs. "Guaranteed" (I use the term loosely because nothing is truly guaranteed) month-to-month income is a very valuable thing for any business to hold onto.
[/ QUOTE ]
We were also split fairly well on the changes.
[ QUOTE ]
PS: I'm not trying to trounce on anyone's ideas or opinions, so I hope no one thinks I'm disprespecting them. I'm not
[/ QUOTE ]
You've seemed to be more civil than most despite not liking the changes you at least understand the why they were done.
Well I write this with a heavy heart as it has been a month of i5 and no repeal in sight. So now I am forced to merely remember the fun I had to i5 as my sub runs out the 4th of Oct, and with the nerfs done to my characters in general invul in specific I can no longer enjoy the game and thusly cannot justify paying for it any more. Mr. Emmert whilst you claim the nerfs have nothing to do with PvP to any who will listen both the timing and the numbers don't correlate your claim. CoV looms menacingly on the horizon, and the invul nerfs, if the math I have gathered is correct, are the same as the amount of blaster damage from arena that was non-resistable so this seems to me that a game has been drastically altered for PvP even though many of us were attracted to it by the lack thereof. So I leave you now and for all those who ever ran with me farewell where ever you may land, and to those who knew me not as weel and even those who thought me an insufferably arrogant b*****d may you find enjoyment here if you choose to stick it out. As Nigrum Aeternus fades into oblivion I can think only that these are the most apt of words
Where...
...Where's a wish go?
Where's a dream go when you wake up and you can't remember it?
Nowhere.
Give everybody my best. It's been nice...existing.
-Captain Marvel The Dark Knight Strikes Again by Frank Miller
[ QUOTE ]
Well I write this with a heavy heart as it has been a month of i5 and no repeal in sight. So now I am forced to merely remember the fun I had to i5 as my sub runs out the 4th of Oct,
[/ QUOTE ]
*sniff* I'm... I'm speechless... *choked up*
Oh yeah, can I have your stuff?
I just hate getting my buffs nerfed, while trying to buff the nerf that in turn nerfs my buff. Why buff my nerfs?, because they nerf'd my buffs. So buff this nerfs! I5 is the biggest nerf buffer since the buffing of nerfs. Ask the people that got buffed by the nerfs. Damn nerf buffers!
[ QUOTE ]
When people start comparing alterations to their character to having their eyes poked out they need to step away from the computer.
[/ QUOTE ]
My apologies Xero. I assumed everyone here was familiar with the use of analogy. I'll attempt to be more direct so as not to confuse you in the future.
...damn public schools. 
[ QUOTE ]
I just hate getting my buffs nerfed, while trying to buff the nerf that in turn nerfs my buff. Why buff my nerfs?, because they nerf'd my buffs. So buff this nerfs! I5 is the biggest nerf buffer since the buffing of nerfs. Ask the people that got buffed by the nerfs. Damn nerf buffers!
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm so confused.
Ok, on topic. Here's what I love about I-5:
When I do team, still a rarity as I hate waiting on people, no longer do I have to wait for the tank to herd.
I love that. Mob to mob action makes the game more fun. If tanks don't feel like this gives them enough time to grab the mob's agro, tough, work harder.
Not like mobs are lasting a long time these days.
Be well, people of CoH.
It's only the people that PL who are mad at the changes I5 brought. Me personally, I haven't noticed a thing. The game feels the same to me. It's just so darn quite when I log on now. Darn nerf hearding CoV beta buffers.
[ QUOTE ]
It's only the people that PL who are mad at the changes I5 brought. Me personally, I haven't noticed a thing. The game feels the same to me. It's just so darn quite when I log on now. Darn nerf hearding CoV beta buffers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well I am not a power leveler by any means and I am mad at I5 ans so are a lot of non power levelers I play with who rarely play now and are debating on canceling their 4 accounts. In the group of 6 of us only 2 of us have a level 50 and the other 4 that do not have played longer than I have.
I say your statement does not even have a modicum of truth to it. The reason is that all I5 did was change the way pl work and instead of using tanks they use scrappers or a couple combos of uber controllers classes.
In fact it is eaiser to PL now than it was before I5 you get more xp per mob now you just go small group to small group really fast. The damage out put is up and makes XP gain quicker you can clear a mission faster now than before I5 using the right AT combos. Run around kill everything real fast leave mission reset rinse repeat. So now they can kill faster and get more xp and no longer have to spend hours herding up tons of mobs for the same xp.
Sorry the statement was wrong on to many fronts
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, on topic. Here's what I love about I-5:
When I do team, still a rarity as I hate waiting on people, no longer do I have to wait for the tank to herd.
I love that. Mob to mob action makes the game more fun. If tanks don't feel like this gives them enough time to grab the mob's agro, tough, work harder.
[/ QUOTE ]
Back before I5, when I would team with my Fire/Ice Tanker, the 'wait for herding' would consist of enough time to grab a spawn's attention, with a possible taunt to a second spawn if it was close enough that we could expect the firefight to spread to it before all of the first group went down (i.e., knockback). It wasn't worth trying to herd more than that, because the inevitable 'splash' of mobs once the zapgunners started shooting would spread targets out too far to keep control of them -- and because asking 3/4 of a team to stand around while I herded up a map was boring, both for me and for them.
Now, it looks as if I'm going to have to respec her into Hasten just to bring her offense back up to where soloing her isn't an exercise in tedium waiting for recharge...
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
How do you say your name? Well, I just want to start by saying how sorry I am for being wrong on too many fronts with my comment. Please forgive me Hijekcheksskie. I mean my whole day is ruined now. I feel so bad that I just want to run and clean your bedroom for you, before your mom gets home from work. Just so we are friends again. Im Rick James BEEOTCH!
[ QUOTE ]
How do you say your name? Well, I just want to start by saying how sorry I am for being wrong on too many fronts with my comment. Please forgive me Hijekcheksskie. I mean my whole day is ruined now. I feel so bad that I just want to run and clean your bedroom for you, before your mom gets home from work. Just so we are friends again. Im Rick James BEEOTCH!
[/ QUOTE ]
I guess this is suppose to be sarcasm um ok any ways um well have a nice day
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
Have a nice day?, that's the nicest thing you said all day
[ QUOTE ]
It's only the people that PL who are mad at the changes I5 brought.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why would PL'ers be mad? They get more XP now for doing exactly the same thing they did before. In fact I5 is a buff for PL'ers.
[ QUOTE ]
I5 wasn't about nerfing the casual player. I believe that it was to align the abilities of the powers in the powersets with CoV and within teams, make the Arena PvP more equal and lowering the abilities of those in the top 10% of the playerbase who were rapidly PLing all of their buddies.
It's not those of us with level 50s and/or post to the boards who are important to the continuing health of the game, even though we are the best players of the game. It's the *other* 90% of the players that should and will be considered in changes to the game mechanics--rightfully so, since I would guess that they contribute at least 5 times as much money to the game as we do. (Not 9 times because we often have multiple accounts and stick with the game longer.)
[/ QUOTE ]
With all due respect, that makes no sense at all. If we're such a minority compared to the casual player, why spend all this time and energy making changes that affect only 10% of the players? Especially seeing as how we DID NOT WANT these changes (nerfs). That's the problem... no one gained anything from the I5 nerfs. The casual players are largely unaffected and the rest of us are angry.
On the other hand, if they had chosen to spend their time to ADD MORE UNIQUE CONTENT, well then EVERYONE would benefit. There are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of posts to back up what I'm saying.
The nerf bat is an industry-wide problem nowadays. This just happens to be one extreme case out of many. Devs of ALL GAMES need to learn that the nerf bat is easy to swing, but all-but-impossible to stop swinging. This is because of the simple fact that - as with everything in life - it is far easier to destroy (eg; nerf) than it is to create (eg; add new content).
There are smarter ways to achieve "balance" in this game than to nerf the living bejesus out of everything. Making bad guys stronger was a start, but it was an unfinished idea. Not a bad idea, just an unfinished one.
I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about from another game... Desert Combat (the BF1942 mod). The problem was spawn-camping... killing people as they spawned into their bases, and therefore racking up a serious score. There were a gazillion posts on ideas of how to essentially "nerf" the game to keep people from spawn-camping. Everyone was arguing about these ideas for months.
I told them, if you want to stop spawn-camping, you need to take away people's DESIRE to do it... make it so that you don't get any points for killing someone who has just recently spawned in their base, say, using a 30-second timer. It was such a simple solution compared to all of the nerf-o-rama's that everyone else was suggesting, and it didn't negatively affect any other aspect of gameplay at all.
Without trying to sound like I'm patting myself on the back, heh, the devs need to learn to take this sort of logic and apply it to CoH. Forget the nerf... there are smarter ways to fix problems. Nerfing is a REactive solution. They need to think more PROactively.