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Circeus, there is something you (and many others) have glossed over about Statesman's numbers...they are off...WAY off.
As stated, invul passives are 7.5% (which has been tested and everyone agrees on that number) but where the error comes is in the enhancements. Statesman said that max with +3 level SO resists you would get 18.975% from the invul passives. Think that through everyone. To get 18.975% from +3 level enhancements each enhancement would need to provide 25.5% buff (((1 + (6 * .255)) * 7.5) = 18.975). This means that each defense and resist SO is gaining a 9.167% boost each level, as opposed to the accepted (and dev quoted from long ago) 5% boost each level.
Invul max on passives should be 17.85 = ((1 + (6 * (.2 * 1.15))) * 7.5)
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7.5% base * (1+ (6 Enhancements * .2 Enhancement increase)) * 1.15 for +3 Enhancements = 18.975.
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...Statesman and Circeus have just managed to nerf my brain.
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no, its ok. Statesman has had his mind nerf.
by changing the X1.15 from the +3's outside of the parenthesis, you multiply not only the enhancement (the 6 x .2) but also the base (the 1)
Its 1 + 6 enhancers and not, 1.15 x 6 enhancers.
Such Statesmen is wrong in his math.
The correct math is
Base x (1 + enhancement value) = Final
For 6 +3 def enhancers that would be
Base x ( 1 + (.2 x 1.15)+ (.2 x 1.15)+ (.2 x 1.15)+ (.2 x 1.15)+ (.2 x 1.15)+ (.2 x 1.15)) = Final
Which can be simplified to
Base x (1 + [6 x + (.2 x 1.15)])= final.
If the base is 7.5, then the final boost is 17.85
Statesman, this has been the third time that your math has been obviously wrong. Please get it right, or at least make sure your developers have it right. I am serioulsy doubting your ability to balance the game if you cannot even add up the bonuses on paper correctly. This is not difficult, but it is essential.
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I believe this is what is actually happening and it adds up correctly.
7.5 * (1+ ( 6 * (.2 + .03))) = 17.85
Basically, each enhancement is worth .20 and each + is .01 on the enhancement (assuming maximum +3 difference.)
{{PS. I am amazed that I figured it out if it is right. I'm not that good at math.}}
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That's what's happening, but not why; your numbers work out because:
6 * .2 * 1.15
6 * (.2 * 1.15)
6 * ((.2 * 1) + (.2 * .15))
6 * (.2 + .03)
Each over-level + is worth 0.01 simply because 5% of 0.2 = 0.01. This wouldn't work properly for the "damage-type" enhancements which have a base of .333. 
HTH,
Kam
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Thanks for that too Kam. You and Circeus are teaching me alot.
I used to be better at this stuff around I2-I3. 
Guys, I realize Statesman had the math a little wrong, but it was only off by about 1%. I don't think it was making that much of a difference.
You still arent addressing the fact that in Issue 5 (the "End to Herding" issue) Ice and Invulnerability tanks are being basically forced to herd up enemies to max out their defense using EA and Invinc since the rest of their defenses have taken a large hit.
Wouldnt it be better to increase the buff per mob and cap the total def (still allowing it to hit more mobs for the taunt effect)?
Also, can you give us an idea how Ice tankers will deal with Energy and Fire attacks before 18 and 26 respectively? It really seems like this slipped someone's mind when they were coming up with these changes.
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Guys, I realize Statesman had the math a little wrong, but it was only off by about 1%. I don't think it was making that much of a difference.
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It's not just the 1%. It's the fact that it's a math error being used to justify or argue for the reason behind a HUGE reduction in defensive power for an entire powerset. It's also another hit to the entire idea that the Devs are making changes based on correct numbers...we all assume they are, but what if they aren't? <coughinternalserverandscrapperscough>
Basically, it's the principle of the thing. If you're gonna post as a leader of the Dev team on a board of players, it just might be better to make damned sure your numbers are correct.
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Oh - one other change coming soon to the Training Room...
This was an idea taken right from this forum. Since Ice Armor has no Resistance, it's a zero sum sort of power set. In other words, you're hit or your not. Well, someone (I've forgotten who) suggested adding a Damage Debuff to one of the powers - and we did! Chilling Embrace gains the ability to debuff mob damage (though it's Recharge debuff is slightly slower now).
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Sweet! I PM'ed CuppaJo with that idea to replace the defense buff in Invincibility. Well it didn't work out quite as I hoped but I'm happy to hear that our tanker brethren will benefit.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
This is just me stating my opinion, but look at it this way.
Imagine they were of 1% across the board.
so:
FA = 1%
Weave = 1%
WE = 1%
EA = 1% * 14 = 14%
Total = 17 %
Where that 1% really hurts is EA and Invinc.
I'm sure one of the gurus could throw out some better examples than mine though.
Changed GA to Weave because of damage typing
It is also the principle though.
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Basically, it's the principle of the thing. If you're gonna post as a leader of the Dev team on a board of players, it just might be better to make damned sure your numbers are correct.
[/ QUOTE ]That's the same problem as him going through PR before posting here. I would rather have slightly wrong Statesman, than no Statesman at all.
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We're also adding resistance to Toxic in Permafrost to bring it into line with Invulnerability's Resist Elements.
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Any chance of doing the same for Temperature Protection in Fire Armour?
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People have recorded the base of Invincibility at 3.5%, so I was only going by that, please feel free to give the correct number (for range too please!)
3.5% * (1 + (6 * .22)) = 8.12% per mob.
8.12% * 14 mobs is 113.68.
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The number isn't 3.5% base - it's 1.5%. To be honest - I don't know where the data came from that led to 3.5%.
Certainly, your points on Toxic and Psi are true; let's not forget that Invulnerability has an inherent weakness to Psi in Unyielding, though. It's safe to say that Ice is better (albeit marginally) because it lacks that weakness.
You're 100% correct about assuming 14 mobs in EA AND Invincibility - though something else isn't taken into account. Invincibility works only while mobs are in melee. So as the number of mobs decrease, Invincibility decreases. If a Tanker leaves melee range for 1 second, the buff from Invincibility fades...This isn't the case with EA; it's a click that lasts 45 seconds. The calculation of mobs is done at the moment it's used - and that buff carries throughout the 45 seconds. It doesn't decrease like Invincibility.
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At last check, Ice still had no psi defense (sans Weave)
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I'm sure he was talking about Unyielding Self -Def, meaning that Inv has a better change of getting hit by psionic...
Or at least that's how I took it, but with the latest display of knowledge this guys are giving I'm not so sure anymore.
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But Invul doesn't get any Psionic Def either... so a debuff of Any% wouldn't make any difference at all.
How can you DeBuff 0%?
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Let me give you an example:
Even minions have a 50% chance to hit you. If you have a -10% defense debuff, then that same minions is now going to have a 60% Chance to hit you.
Yes! You can have negative defense, that's the whole idea behind unyielding's defense debuff. I doesn't offer a defense, but it offers a debuff.
Circeus did you numbers include the fact that the slow is only effecting 10 of the 14 mobs? If not 4 of the those have an extra attack incoming.
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Guys, I realize Statesman had the math a little wrong, but it was only off by about 1%. I don't think it was making that much of a difference.
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The point is that if he is wrong about that, what else? This whole I5 business shows either a poor understanding of the game, or that something is very wrong with the numbers they're using.
It's not the 1st time something like this happen. Right before I4 he did some testing with scrappers, and he was defeating 20-ish +7 minions in just a couple of minutes. The problem was a faulty enviroment: Accuracy and Damage were registering everybody as even level mobs (Mobs and heroes alike, so heroes were doing damage as +7 to the mobs, and the +7's were doing damage as even level to the hero)
So, no! It doens't seem important, but the question is: Can we really trust their tests and ideology behind I5?
removed
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Adron's comments brings me to a solution I came up with to make DEf equal to RES.
The problem lies in that DEF is *subtracted* from accuracy, while RES is *multipled* against damage.
ie: Accuracy = Base - DEF, while Damage = Base * (1-RES)
I propose we change the calculation for how DEF is applied, making it:
Accuracy = Base * (1-DEF).
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I second that. I made the same suggestion under the SR/Elude thread. So far this has been ignored by the developers. It would be great if we could at least get some kind of feedback on this suggestion.
From what I heard it seems to me that Ice Tankers (a pure DEF set) had problems from the start. I played SR myself and I found that I'm either either to powerfull or dead; never really in between. (I once had to leave the game for 5 minutes and got an ambush (heroic difficulty). When I came back I was completely unharmed. My normal healing + 1 slotted health took care of the damage.)
People mentioned before that this is because the range in which DEF works is so narrow. But instead of actually adressing the problem that the core calculation is screwed up, the developpers try to fix the problem by trying to make more opponents fall into the same range. By decreasing DEF across the board it becomes better suited for even level minions. This of course makes it useless against even level bosses, so they decreased their accuracy to try to compensate. They forgot three things though:
1. Player accuracy in pvp remains unchanged (defense is now pretty useless in pvp)
2. Minions, lts, and bosses lose some of their distinction (there no longer is a big difference in how often they hit, only how hard they hit)
3. It doesn't scale properly (once you face opponents that are a few levels higher you are quickly outside of the range again).
I really wish a developer would comment on this at least once.
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Circeus did you numbers include the fact that the slow is only effecting 10 of the 14 mobs? If not 4 of the those have an extra attack incoming.
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No, and an excellent point - I need to think how to work that into the spreadsheet.
Especially since the base spreadsheet is vs 50 mobs I believe
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I think I have a good, relatively "fair" way to work this in, gonna sleep on it and if I still like it in the morning I'll get it in and get the spreadsheets updated.
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. Well, someone (I've forgotten who) suggested adding a Damage Debuff to one of the powers - and we did! Chilling Embrace gains the ability to debuff mob damage (though it's Recharge debuff is slightly slower now).
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Hey, that'd be nice for SR, too. Put it in Practiced Brawler. (Or a minor heal.) Might solve some of the problems quite nicely.
PERC Supporter
La Pucelle (BS/SR)
Miseria Bella (Sonic/Dark)
Wrangler Annie (SS/Elec)
Coldsmoke (Ice/Dark)
Saber Maid (BS/Regen)
and others...
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Oh - one other change coming soon to the Training Room...
This was an idea taken right from this forum. Since Ice Armor has no Resistance, it's a zero sum sort of power set. In other words, you're hit or your not. Well, someone (I've forgotten who) suggested adding a Damage Debuff to one of the powers - and we did! Chilling Embrace gains the ability to debuff mob damage (though it's Recharge debuff is slightly slower now).
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Very interesting.
Now just replace Icicles with Arctic Air. (Okay, maybe I'm the only one in the world who likes that idea.)
The game ends at 50.
SmilegasmDo not ever give Mind Control a pet.
We need more control sets without pets.My characters are not "toons".
They are all project characters, though.Global chat @Lxndr My servers: Defiant, Liberty, Pinnacle, Virtue
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Oh - one other change coming soon to the Training Room...
This was an idea taken right from this forum. Since Ice Armor has no Resistance, it's a zero sum sort of power set. In other words, you're hit or your not. Well, someone (I've forgotten who) suggested adding a Damage Debuff to one of the powers - and we did! Chilling Embrace gains the ability to debuff mob damage (though it's Recharge debuff is slightly slower now).
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Definitely not my idea, but I felt like sharing what I suggested earlier in this thread.
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Another great idea that people have mentioned is the idea of a damage debuff aura. Basically, the idea is to make an aura around the ice tank (which benefits the team as well) that will lower damage from enemies. The cold air will slow their attacks thus lowering the damage from them. (Don't think attack rate, but rather slowing their kinetic motion when they do attack.) This would finally give us a place on teams as well. Anyone can match or exceed our defense by using purple inspirations. We need something else to make us useful to a team.
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These announcements have me worried though. I feel like this is the "deep breath before the plunge". Frankly, I can't make hide nor hair of this number crunching, but I will stand firm behind whatever Circeus tells me. (Sorry devs, but I trust his number crunching more even if numbers are withheld from him.)
I still think we need some answers on a lot of questions. I feel like this is our only chance here to get things changed.
What of PvP? Are we going to remain crippled in I5 with our lack of defense?
Was the Slow Resistance fixed on Wet Ice?
What of Toxic Damage Resistance on a slow charging click power that is usually slotted heavily for healing and recharge? (Any word on the mythic toxic defense?)
I realize that one-shotting will be removed, but what of auto-hit auras? Will the new chilling embrace be enough to protect us from them? (Just go stand next to the Envoy of Shadows to see what I mean)
What are your ideas for Permafrost? I'd love to hear them.
Will the damage debuff in Chilling Embrace scale the same as the slow effect? The slow aspect really falls off quickly against higher level foes and is pretty much non-existant against things like AVs.
Must we have the Psi crutch weakness as well as Fire?
Any word on changes to Hibernate?
High cost of icicles reduced? (1.5 EPS)
... the questions continue.
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
Another thing that I find very irritating about all these changes is that Ice will become very slot heavy for little gain. Think about it- We're pretty much expected to 6 slot:
Frozen Armor
Glacial Armor
EA
Permafrost
Tough
Weave
Possibly Hasten
That's 42 Slots to come up with a tanker that barely performs (Meaning if I focus solely on getting these six-slotted, I would be at level 37 before I could even start slotting anything else.) If it weren't for EA adding an End buff, we'd be royally hosed and would need Stamina too. God forbid I should ever want to do any kind of damage, because I can't be wasting my slots on attacks. Thanks States, but no thanks. Rock-hopper's still on the shelf.
(Edit: Gah! Stupid number keys!)
My story arcs: #2370- Noah Reborn, #18672- The Clockwork War, #31490- Easy Money
Sartre once said, "Hell is other people." What does that make an MMO?
It was my idea! (with all due respect for anyone else who also though it up, im sure some people did)
I now declare Statesman the coolest, smartest gamedeveloper EVER! and he knows more Mythology than I do! He is like....a God! (I am so happy!)
Last time I checked we had weaknesses to Fire (33.2% Resist ~ with the joke power permafrost 6 slotted, 17.85 Defense), Psychic (0% Resist, 0% Defense), and untyped Toxic (20% Resist ~ Run through a couple Hydra missions and tell me this isn't a hole, 0% Defense).
On the EA versus invincibility front...We have to jump in then activate our EA which is downtime we'll feel, while you can jump in with invincibility and instantly reap the benefits. Don't get me wrong though I like the click, but you need to consider all the ramifications of a power when balancing it.
So, if we 6 slot EA with Defense plus 6 slot Frozen Armor and Glacial Armor we can just then and only if we manage to accumulate 14 mobs floor an even con minion? Masters of Defense is a joke.
With those weaknesses we should be getting something MASSIVE to use in other circumstances or at least trim the holes down to just 1.
Permafrost with Toxic resist is slightly better, but still I'm not sure it'll be worth taking. If you're going to keep our Defense this low...we need either resist or massive Hp to make up the difference.....anything it doesn't matter, just take the sting away.
I know you're reluctant to raise the Ice Tank bar for fear of throwing off what I5 is attempting to do, but come on...you have to see this for what it is. My Ice Tank was the most fun I've had in CoH, not for how easy it was, but for the difficulties...the having to figure things out and make the leap to know what I could do. It was a constant struggle for 50 levels. I learned things to keep me alive right up until 50 and afterwords. It was a fight to stay alive for those 50 levels...one I frequently didn't win. But, I made it...after all the blood, sweat, and being turned into a snow cone more times than I care to remember; I made it.
Now, I'm watching the Primary I came adore being washed away with the Defense changes in I5. We're taking soo much more damage than the other tanks and most of the scrappers it's laughable. You could just try some of the things we're asking for and talking about. It's all on test; nothing is official. We just want to compete with the AT as a whole, something we can't even ponder on the Test server at the moment.
P.S. PvP is still.....too awful for words.
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. Well, someone (I've forgotten who) suggested adding a Damage Debuff to one of the powers - and we did! Chilling Embrace gains the ability to debuff mob damage (though it's Recharge debuff is slightly slower now).
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Hey, that'd be nice for SR, too. Put it in Practiced Brawler. (Or a minor heal.) Might solve some of the problems quite nicely.
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Mentioning this over to the Scrapper forum.. hope ya don't mind.
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You still arent addressing the fact that in Issue 5 (the "End to Herding" issue) Ice and Invulnerability tanks are being basically forced to herd up enemies to max out their defense using EA and Invinc since the rest of their defenses have taken a large hit.
Wouldnt it be better to increase the buff per mob and cap the total def (still allowing it to hit more mobs for the taunt effect)?
Also, can you give us an idea how Ice tankers will deal with Energy and Fire attacks before 18 and 26 respectively? It really seems like this slipped someone's mind when they were coming up with these changes.
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I would like to add my voice to concern on the facing energy attacks prior to level 18 with Galacial Armour and getting attacked by fire ( I will have to experiment with Permafrost now ). Is Blade, a test tank on the test server has found the outcasts much tougher then the other groups do to their high usage of pure energy and fire attacks. There are other groups that can also leave you with almost no defense. The .5% protection in Wet Ice even if it was maximum slotted to 1% would still leave minions with an accuracy of 49%. Galacial Armour is a basic defense and should come earlier than level 18 and it would be good if it included the same value of defense that energy and negative energy provide.
I would like to say thanks to you Statesman for giving us some feedback and discussing ice primary with Geko. The adding of Toxic to Permafrost is nice as is the damage debuff in Chilling Embrace. The review of maximum damage in one hit is also great news. I look forward to testing these changes.
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You're 100% correct about assuming 14 mobs in EA AND Invincibility - though something else isn't taken into account. Invincibility works only while mobs are in melee. So as the number of mobs decrease, Invincibility decreases. If a Tanker leaves melee range for 1 second, the buff from Invincibility fades...This isn't the case with EA; it's a click that lasts 45 seconds. The calculation of mobs is done at the moment it's used - and that buff carries throughout the 45 seconds. It doesn't decrease like Invincibility.
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Yes, but similarly, you're forgetting that the continuing effects of EA works on both sides of the fence. First off if its not ready when you run into mobs then you can't buff, and if there are no mobs to buff from you can't buff either.
Not to mention that Invincibility is a toggle running at 0.36 EPS, but EA, because its a click with a base recharge of 60s, but only a 45s duration, you need to slot in 1 Recharge enhancer to make it always active (recharge at 45s) - however this makes its effective EPS 0.44. Much higher than Invincibility.
Granted that now EA has a nice return on investment with the End recovery, but the end costs are still highly disparate. And you should address that.
While I'm mentioning End, drop Icicles by half its cost please. Way too expensive for its damage output.
Also, the Scrapper testing is extensive and showing Invincibility for them to be at 2.625% base. So if its 1.5% for Tankers, then what is it for Scrappers? Also 10 minutes after you posted it not being 3.5% I saw two posts demonstrating it closer to 3%. So can you please recheck this value.
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I have no idea what you just said...
"I see your words..." ~The most menacing thing a forumite could say
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Will you do my taxes next year, Kam?
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Heh... Taxes are a WHOLE different ballgame.
Kam