I think the combination of sonic and FF has a lot of potential, although it may be a problem that a team has to have a certain mix rather than just "everyone has radiation, get as many people as possible".
Endurance management could be a problem if everyone is trying to run leadership and the status protection bubbles. Kinetics is probably a good choice to cover that.
hello! I joined your buffer overrun a while ago, after people stopped doing it apparently =P
I would like in on this if you'll let me.
I'd like to be kin/dark, but I'll take whatever anyone else doesn't want really.
edit: actually, I'd really really like to keep the kin/dark. I made Dark Discomfort on the test server and got him to level 2 and would like to see where he goes with this.
i had a chance of teaming in a very power team yesterday, 3 defenders of various kinds, 1 scrapper, and myself, a fire/SS tanker... man it was something else to have 2 rows of various buffs/debuffs going
yes i had some debuffs frm the bad guys, but man 2 rows of stuff?, ok so yeh, at least 5-6 of the icons were mine (blazing aura, fire shield, plasma shield, sprint, swift, hurdle), but still..lol
In this team, people will ideally have 6 FF Bubbles, 6 Sonic bubbles, 3 Dispersion Bubbles, 3 Sonic Dispersion Bubbles, 8 Assaults, 8 Tactics, 2 Grant Invis, 2 Speed Boost, 2 Inertial Reduction, 2 Increase Density. That's 42 buffs, minus the ones you can't cast on yourself. The word Unbreakable comes to mind. How many buffs fit on a line?
I tried the Tank Mage team tonight. I came REALLY close to dying once, but that's because I was the lowest level char and I was leading. Unslotted bubbles are not nearly as good as slotted ones. No one died. The levelling rate was a bit slower than expected. As is usual at lower levels, Endurance often ran low. I expect Speed Boost will help, and Stamina later.
Getting the right people together was hard. I expect it will continue to be hard till enough people read this and want to join.
I'll be continuing Saturday, and probably Sunday, Monday, etc.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
i've been on a team where everyone was either sonic/sonic or arrow/arrow
i was an odd man out with a dark/sonic
we were ripping groups up in perez park. 5 seconds flat and the entire mob was dead. kinetics is a must though for the endurance part of the equation. transference will be a godsend.
would this be on freedom as well? i'd be interested if my current coalition of SG's doesn't do something similar
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I tried the Tank Mage team tonight. I came REALLY close to dying once, but that's because I was the lowest level char and I was leading.
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Actually, I think the close call happened because we waited too long to refresh buffs. Also possibly because we were fighting a +2 Bone Daddy, and no one had Insulation Shield yet.
Our defense was great but endurance, accuracy, and damage were just okay. Damage should get a lot better when the sonics get their resist debuffs, and having 2 kins using siphon power would be nice. Endurance will get better when the kins get speed boost but it looks like this team won't be at peak effectiveness until stamina and/or transference. Accuracy is a bit of an issue - stacked tactics is going to be a must-have to fight the kind of deep purples that a rad team can.
The change in power order for Sonic Resonance will help, since the sonics will get a res debuff at level 1. However, I'm thinking that only having 3 people on the team with res debuffs isn't going to be impressive enough. Maybe having at least half the team take sonic secondary would be more effective? It's short on AoEs but the -res would overwhelm single targets quickly.
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I'm big on SuperTeams. That means teams that are more than just a group of people playing together. SuperTeams are teams that are SIGNIFICANTLY more than the sum of their parts.
My first SuperTeam was all-Rads. Why is an all-Rad team a SuperTeam? Because the team buffs and mob debuffs, stacked up to 8 times, are just sickly overpowering. See the SG link in my sig for the gory details. I founded the Buffer Overrun Super Group and recruited lots of Radiation/* Defenders and */Radiation Controllers. It took me 6 weeks to level a Controller from 1 to 50. We had another round of recruiting less than a month ago, and we already have multiple level 50 characters. I could make another Rad, but I want to try something new.
With Update 5, my new SuperTeam is gonna be Tank Mages. You know, the thing Statesman always says he is trying to avoid. A Tank Mage is a ranged attacker with great offense and defense. Why is it bad? Well, you don't need anyone else. You just stand there and blast mobs at range. No need for Tankers or Scrappers to Taunt, Challenge, or Provoke mobs and manage agro. No need for Controllers to control the mobs. Tank Mages have enough Defense that mob attacks can be ignored. You blast at the mobs till they decide to run, then you snipe the runners!
What AT do you need? Defenders. Nothing else. What sort of Defenders? Mainly Sonic Debuff (soon to be Sonic Resonance), and Force Field. How does it work? At low levels, Force Field Defenders can give teammates bubbles that provide Defense against most forms of damage. Sonic Debuff Defenders can give people bubble equivalents that provide Resistance. Stack a few Force Field bubbles, even the reduced ones from Update 5, and you'll drop a mobs chance to hit down to 5% for most forms of damage. Stack a few Sonic bubbles, and you'll hit the 75% Resistance cap. You will hardly ever be hit, and if you are it will hardly hurt.
How many of each Defender type do you need? It takes 4 Sonics at low levels to cap Resistance, only 3 at level 12 with some Dual Origin Enhancements, and only 2 at level 22 with Single Origin Enhancements (based on the numbers I've heard). Note that since they can't bubble themselves, the Sonics would have significantly reduced Resistance if there were only 2. Against mobs with -RES debuffs, that could be deadly. You don't really need to cap Resistance at low levels, since mobs don't hit too hard. That means 3 is a good number of Sonics to have for the entire 1-50 range. I don't know about the numbers for Force Field, but I would expect 3 would be appropriate. Using 4 of either would be overkill, and we have a limited number of slots.
Protection from status effects is important too. Force Field Defenders get Dispersion Bubble at level 12 which provides protection from Hold, Immob, and Disorient. Sonic Debuff Defenders get a sonic equivalent. Stacked 6 times, taking into account the 5% chance to be hit, you don't have to worry about those status effects. If you're worried about Knockback, take Acrobatics.
That's the tanking part, now for the Mage part. How can a bunch of Defenders do a lot of damage? Well, Sonics get a debuff that can lower mob Resistance. Stack that a few times, and the mobs are gonna be taking a LOT more damage than usual. Anyone know the resistance debuff cap? Defenders get a decent DMG bonus fron Leadership : Assault, and you can stack that 8 times if everyone takes it. If you have Assault, you might as well take Tactics, to give everyone a huge To Hit bonus (huge when stacked 8 times). (No need for Maneuvers, it's useless compared to Force Fields.) Attacks can be slotted for damage only. If I've done my math right, you can slot attacks with 5 green Damage SOs and be at the damage cap. No need to take Aim, it's a wasted power.
Also, no need for Defense, Damage, or Accuracy Inspirations either. I found with all-Rads in Buffer Overrun that Inspirations are almost forgotten.
It looks like we only need 6 Defenders to make us tanks. That leaves 2 more slots for other chars. Why 8 players? You get more bosses, more mobs, higher level mobs (for teams of 6+), and a high team size XP bonus (x2.3). That means more and better Enhancement drops, a higher Influence/XP ratio (so you can buy better Enhancements), and faster levels all around. SuperTeams are big teams.
To be a SuperTeam, the other 2 slots have to make a significant contribution to the team as a whole. Defenders again are the best choice. Granted Blasters could do higher damage, they don't help the team. And believe me, this team can put mobs down fast enough without Blaster damage. The last 2 slots are for Kinetics Defenders. They have a situational Heal, which is probably all we'll ever need (when someone forgets to refresh bubbles). They have Siphon Power and Fulcrum Shift, both of which increase the damage capacity of the entire team while reducing the damage done by mobs. This means higher team damage at low levels, and the ability to respec slots out of attacks at higher levels, ideally to improve team oriented powers. They have Increase Density to protect against Knockback, the only thing Dispersion Bubble doesn't cover. It also acts as Clear Mind in case someone is mezzed. They have Speed Boost and Inertial Reduction to give the team faster movement. Speed Boost and Transference help with Endurance, and Speed Boost also provides a Recharge Reduction bonus on everything. Kinetics Defenders fill the holes in the team nicely, and reduce downtime.
We should also discuss Secondary power sets. Remember the SuperTeam concept; you want power sets that work well in the team. AoE is VERY GOOD, as you'll always be facing large groups of mobs. When I refer to AoE below, I'm referring to the fast recharge AoEs, not the BIG NUKES at the end of each secondary.
Electric is OK alone, but should work well if several people take it. Given the Leadership bonuses, you can slot up the key powers for heavy Endurance Drain. Stacked from multiple people, it might be effective at stoping mobs from doing much. While we're not too worried about mobs attacking, it's still a good idea. It has 2 AoEs (one is PBAoE) that come at very low level and a virtual pet.
Energy is not good for this group. It has 2 AoEs, but one comes at 35. It does knockback, which isn't all that necessary. There are better choices.
Dark is a serious contender. It has 3 cones (one Immob, one Knockback), plus an AoE disorient, and decent single target damage. It gives mobs a -ACC debuff, good for AVs or buffed mobs that might otherwise hit through the Force Fields. It even has a heal at level 35. What's not to like?
Psychic is probably another one to skip. It has 2 AoEs and various status effects, but it falls far short of Dark.
Radiation is fairly good. It has 3 AoEs (1 PBAoE), 2 of which come early, but 1 comes at 35. Single target damage is fast but lower than dark. The attacks give a -DEF debuff, which can help at low levels.
I don't know enough about the new Archery set to make an informed decision. Compared to Dark, can anyone tell me how it rates?
Sonic Attacks are probably not necessary unless they have nice AoEs. Their secondary effect of -RES debuff is already handled by the Sonic Debuff Primary.
I think the following is the best mix or primaries and secondaries.
3 Sonic/Dark Defenders
3 FF/Elec Defenders
2 Kinetics/Dark Defenders
Why those? Let me explain. But first you have to remember, these are Tank Mages. They are not afraid to get into melee combat. They have the equivalent of Update 4 Invuln Scrapper Ressitance with Invincibility for Defense.
Step 1: Everyone jumps RIGHT INTO THE MIDDLE of the mobs!
Step 2: Sonics use -RES debuffs
Kins hit Siphon Power (bosses) or Fulcrum Shift at level 32
FFs hit Short Circuit (near bosses)
Step 3: Kins hit Transfusion (bosses) if anyone needs healing
Everyone backs up a bit, with the Darks using cone immobs
Step 4: AoE or single target attack till everything drops
Step 5: Refresh bubbles or other buffs if necessary
There are a couple other aspects of a SuperTeam. For Movement, it would be nice if 2 or more people took Teleport with Recall Friend. They can move the entire team around quickly and easily, and it's great for moving SKs before they get their movement power.
It would be nice if 2 or more people took Concealment: Grant Invisibility. This will give the entire team full invisibility.
It would be nice if 2 or more people took the Medicine pool. An out of combat heal will often be handy, Stimulant may be necessary against particularly mez heavy mobs, and you never know when you'll need a Resuscitate.
Everyone should take Leadership, most people will take Fitness, and most people will take a conventional movement power (Flying, Super Leaping, or Super Speed). Note that the Kins can give Inertial Reduction, and we'll have TPers, so Hasten plus Super Speed works just fine for movement.
That leaves one extra power pool from the above set. If the Kins skip a movement power (because they can), they can pick 2 of the above. Between 8 of us, we should be able to cover all of the pools with lots of overlap.
By the way, this isn't all carved in stone. Only the primaries are carved in stone. Secondaries and pools are not. If you really want Archery, go ahead. If you really don't want Leadership, then skip it. But remember, every team oriented power you take helps the entire team.
One last thing... Pick you enemies! This team is very weak against Psychic enemies. We avoid them! The best targets are those who are weak to negative energy. We fight them a lot! Simple.
This is my plan. Does anyone have any constructive criticism? Is there anything I missed? Anything you would do differently? If so, please post here, and explain why it would be better?
Finally, I'd like to try this out on test. I'm probably going to be on the Test Server tonight (Friday, July 22) around 9:45 PM EST in Atlas Park looking for people to try this. My global chat handle is @TopDoc on live and test.
If you want in, feel free to post here to reserve a spot. But make sure you're on by 10:15 PM EST tonight. Otherwise, it's first come, first served. I'm only available in the evenings, though sometimes I get a little spare time on the weekends. I usually play from 8:00 PM EST till 11:00 or midnight or so.
If this works out very well, I'll likely want to continue it once Update 5 goes live. Those interested can post here or otherwise let me know. We'll pick a server.
Let me start by reserving a character. I'll be a FF/Elec Defender. For pool powers, I'll take Leadership, Fitness, Speed, and Teleport. I like Teleport, and I used it in all-Rad teams to move people around fast.
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i'm game, any server but virtue, on test i made a sonic and it jsut gave me a great concept, as a rper i cant let a concept die so id love to join tank mages as a sonic/(probably sonic, maybe arrow, maybe elec, not sure yet)
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
A single Sonic Resonance Defender can cap the resistance of another non-Tanker/Kheldian (Statesman claimed 77% total resist for a single Sonic Resonance Def). You will only need 2 of those if you want the Sonic to be capped.
Trick Arrows currently has better -res than Sonic Resonance with 2 AoE -res available. Neither of these require melee, but that likely won't matter. TA is getting a downgrade though.
Sonic Blast/Howl is an excelent Cone attack with a -res secondary effect, no other -res AoEs in Sonic Blast until the nuke though.
2 FF should be good enough, 110% Def should cover all realistic settings.
4 Defenders to turn the entire team into virtual Tankers, decent mez resistance too. Clarity from both SRs will cover the Sleep resistance gap.
This leaves you with 4 Defenders to up damage and cover healing gap, I'd suggest Kin, Dark, Rad and TA. Not necesarily one of each, but those 4 should provide what SR & FF doesn't.
Really, I think you might want to get some */Sonic in there.
The -RES is good, and allows any Sonic/* to have mroe time to focus more on damage than on debuffing, which will speed things up.
Heya, I'd be interested in trying it, maybe as a kin/elec, as that's one I've never tried. But a few questions.
Why would you need more than 2 FF? As one with fully-slotted shields provides 55% defense, wouldn't 2 floor most enemies?
What would you do against psychic opponents?
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Heya, I'd be interested in trying it, maybe as a kin/elec, as that's one I've never tried. But a few questions.
Why would you need more than 2 FF? As one with fully-slotted shields provides 55% defense, wouldn't 2 floor most enemies?
What would you do against psychic opponents?
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Pee in our pants
but if we hit 41 we coud go get he mind over body app :P
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
Sounds like fun actually. I'll have to see if our SG on Protector wants to try it out. 
Just bear in mind that ANY team that is designed around regularly working with one another, and not designed specifically to work with whoever they happen to join with, is going to unquestionably rock. We put one together on Victory back around I2, made up of 6 members. The only time those 6 toons played was with each other (about 10 hours a week at scheduled times). By themselves, or in pickup groups, the toons didn't do so hot, or at least did not contribute as well if they were slotted differently, etc, etc.
But when those 6 played together, they would cut through anything in the game like a hot knife through butter. Loved playing with those. Unfortunately, that SG ended up eventually disbanding. I have not setup a new SuperTeam with my Protector SG, but this post really tempts me to do so again.
Neat layout for the team sir. Will give it a try (or something similar) when I5 goes live.
Sounds like great fun. Will you be doing this tonight? (Sunday). I'd like to join up. I think my preference would be Sonic/Arrow, but I'll take whatever needs there are.
I would love to do this once it comes live. I could be Kinetic/Dark or Sonic/dark, but if you need me to go FF/Elec I could also do so.
This sounds really fun. I'll see if I can get a group of friends to do the rad/rad idea as well. =P.
May I suggest you have one of your Kinetics be a Sonic Blast secondary? I tried a Kin/Sonic on test today and it was awesome. It really packs a punch on it's own and I can see it teamed like you have it and it would just power up the whole team, I believe.
OK, trying to address all of the recent issues...
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FashionSense: The change in power order for Sonic Resonance will help, since the sonics will get a res debuff at level 1. However, I'm thinking that only having 3 people on the team with res debuffs isn't going to be impressive enough.
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That really depends on the Resistance debuff cap. I'm really gonna have to test that. Once the patch with the Sonic debuff power at level 1 goes through, I'll gather up as many Sonics as I can on test and find the cap. And I'll also find out how much a single debuff does. And I'll have to test the debuffs offered by the Sonic Blast AoE powers. Ideally we want to have mobs debuffed to the cap, and not a whole lot more. Assuming 2 Sonic Resonance defenders (not 3, see below), this will let me determine how many Sonic Blast Defenders we want.
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Neko_Lurker: i'm game, any server but virtue
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Unfortunately, that's where I'm planning to do this. I've done lots of solo and I've done big all-Rad teams with Buffer Overrun, but I've never done much RPing in CoH. So I thought I'd start this SG on Virtue, the unofficial RP server.
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WingedKagouti: A single Sonic Resonance Defender can cap the resistance of another non-Tanker/Kheldian (Statesman claimed 77% total resist for a single Sonic Resonance Def). You will only need 2 of those if you want the Sonic to be capped.
...
2 FF should be good enough, 110% Def should cover all realistic settings.
4 Defenders to turn the entire team into virtual Tankers, decent mez resistance too. Clarity from both SRs will cover the Sleep resistance gap.
This leaves you with 4 Defenders to up damage and cover healing gap, I'd suggest Kin, Dark, Rad and TA. Not necesarily one of each, but those 4 should provide what SR & FF doesn't.
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Sounds good. I didn't really want 3 Sonics and 3 FFs. But I do want everyone capped with both Def (OK, really 5% to be hit) and Res. I won't take Statesman's word for it though, just on general principle. As long as it's close though, the double Sonic and regular Dispersion Bubbles should cap Resistance and Defense even on the less defended chars (who can't bubble themselves). Looks like I may need to keep levelling my Sonic/Sonic on the test server to check this.
Thanks for mentioning Sleep, I forgot about that one. I do recommend a couple people take the Medicine Pool, and that has Stimulant. Between that and Clarity, we should be covered. Otherwise, mez heavy mobs could cause a team wipe if they sleep the Dispersion Bubblers, then hold everyone.
So given this information, we may want 2 Sonics, 2 FFs, and 4 Kins. Here's a quick analysis of the other Defender primaries you suggested.
Darks don't provide anything except Psi resistance. It would take 2 to cap that, at least based on the current numbers (25%?). I'd rather not use 2 slots on a char that will only rarely be useful. Granted a single Dark with Shadow Fall fully slotted with +3s could put everyone (including himself fortunately) at 60% PSI Resistance. I could see allowing Darks in, and shuffling people when there's a need to face Psychic enemies to include 1 in the team. But they'd be the black sheep of the SG.
As the founder of Buffer Overrun, I know what Rads can do. But in this SuperTeam, they aren't needed. Their debuffs (RI, EF, and LR) aren't needed. In the New World Order with limits on the number of mobs you can debuff, it's better to buff your team than to debuff the enemy. Sonics and FFs do better damage mitigation, and Kins provide superior team buffs.
Trick Arrow doesn't provide any team buffs, and that's a big part of making a SuperTeam. We don't need Control, and FF and Sonic handle damage mitigation. We don't need Resistance debuffs; Sonics can do that at level 1, and we can have Sonic Secondaries to cap the Resistance debuff.
Kins are the best choice for non-bubblers. With 4 Kins, we probably have enough healing (given that we're ALL going to be tanks). Kins have 3 buffs that really make them ideal. Siphon Power at level 1 and Fulcrum Shift at level 32 are the slot saving powers. Four Kins with Siphon Power give a +100% Damage boost. Add in Assault at 120%, and you can cap damage with 3 SOs. Once chars hit 32, the Kins can alternate (or even stack) Fulcrum Shift, and you won't need to slot your attacks for damage AT ALL to cap them! That slot saving will let you fully slot buffs, debuffs, or other non-attack powers to make them more effective. Also, Speed Boost is great all around. Stacked 4 times, it lets everyone (even pre-travel power SKs) run REAL fast, even in combat, probably with no suppression. It gives a HUGE END Recovery and Recharge Reduction bonus when stacked. Since it can be 6 slotted, you can triple the END Recovery if you want. From level 12 on, the team will attack FAST and have no END problems.
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Flamejet: Why would you need more than 2 FF? As one with fully-slotted shields provides 55% defense, wouldn't 2 floor most enemies?
What would you do against psychic opponents?
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I didn't know the numbers for Update 5 FFs. If it really is 55% Defense, with more for a second Dispersion Bubble, then 2 should be sufficient.
Against psychic opponents, you find a mission from another contact. :-/ Or bring in the one Dark Defender we keep in a closet for just such emergencies.
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Ninjassin: Sounds like great fun. Will you be doing this tonight? (Sunday). I'd like to join up. I think my preference would be Sonic/Arrow, but I'll take whatever needs there are.
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Well, I was gonna try it on the test server, but I couldn't get people together. Not many people interested in trying my ideas, they want to do their own. PUGs with exact requirements are not easy to put together. I think I'm gonna have to wait till Update 5 goes live to get this going. And when it does, I expect some people will want multiple chars in the SG. I certainly will, to cover a hole if the regular FFers all happen to be busy some night for example.
I mentioned before I'm gonna do this on Virtue. I've started levelling a Kin/Dark (named Tanker Wannabe) solo, and I'll create the SG when he hits 10. I've also created the Tank Mages global chat channel. I'm thinking we can get the FFs and Kins together and level them up to 10, then park them till Update 5 hits. Then we SK the Sonics and they'll catch up real fast. Actually we could go higher than 10, say 12 just to get Speed Boost. But it would be nice to wait for the Sonics.
Since Tanker Wannabe was my first Virtue char, I'll probably make a FF and Sonic char for the SG as well. After all, people will come and go, but we'll always want to have the same mix of power sets.
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Razanar: I would love to do this once it comes live. I could be Kinetic/Dark or Sonic/dark, but if you need me to go FF/Elec I could also do so.
This sounds really fun. I'll see if I can get a group of friends to do the rad/rad idea as well. =P.
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Secondary choices are still up in the air. I had thought 3 Sonic Resonance Defenders would be enough Resistance debuff, but now we're down to only needing 2. As I mentioned above, I really should test the Resistance debuff cap, and that will let me determine how many Sonic Blast chars we could use. However, I expect we'll have the Sonic Resonance Defenders be Sonic/Sonic, so the rest of us can make chars and level them to 12 while we wait for Update 5.
And as I mentioned, I expect some people will have multiple chars. You can make a Kin and a Sonic if you want.
If you want to try all-Rad, check out Buffer Overrun (in my sig). That was my first SuperTeam experiment, and it's worked very well.
In closing...
I'll be playing Tanker Wannabe up to 12, and I'll make the SG when I can. (I'll probably hit 10 tonight or tomorrow.) If anyone wants to join me, just look for me online between about 8:00 PM EST and 11:00. If you don't see me, try a /tell to @TopDoc.
If any level 50 char on Virtue wants to help bankroll the SG with Influence, it would be appreciated.
If you hate the Defense and Resistance nerfs, rebel by joining us! You can still play like a Tank after Update 5.
If you lost your big pet farm and can't hardly Control, join us!
If you're a Blaster and like how Defiance increases your damage, think about what it's like to have capped damage all the time. Consider that a Defender can out-damage you once we massively reduce the mobs Resistance. And compare your HP increase to our capped Def and Res buffs.
I'd like to get a core group of 8+ people that play nearly every night, in order to help keep the levels close together. If there's enough interest, we may be able to get 2 or more teams going every night. If we level at the same rate as Buffer Overrun, we should be able to do Croatoa about a week after Update 5 goes live (after all the 50s are done badge hunting). And the truly dedicated will hit level 50 in a month.
And if I'm lucky, I can do this all before CoV Beta.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
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We don't need Resistance debuffs; Sonics can do that at level 1, and we can have Sonic Secondaries to cap the Resistance debuff.
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The level 1 SR DeBuff (Sonic Siphon) is a single target power, not too useful in a large battle but very nice vs Elite Bosses/AVs. Disruption Field is less -Res than EF, it can miss (quite frequently too) and it doesn't accept Accuracy enhancements.
You need to stack some 8-10 Blast DeBuffs to cap or 5-6 if the target is hit by Sonic Siphon, so unless you have 4 /Sonic spamming Howl (with perma-Hasten) you can use another character with an AoE -Res DeBuff, assuming that both Sonic/ have Disruption Field active.
OK, just read through Ladioss_Sopp's Kinetics guide (great data there). So I've got a few more recommendations...
I always told people in Buffer Overrun that they could get by without Stamina. Accelerate Metabolism could be made perma, and stacked 8 times it gave the equivalent of several Staminas 6-slotted. Of course you usually have to slot AM heavily for Recharge in order to make it perma. Well, Kinetics Speed Boost is a significantly larger boost (2 to 3 times as big), and it can be 6 slotted with END Recovery. Starting with level 12, Endurance will NOT be a problem. You do NOT need to take Stamina, unless you plan on playing outside of the SG.
Transference at level 26 is just sick. With a couple extra slots, you can fully drain a non-AV of Endurance, and fill the Endurance bar of every teammate nearby. Imagine using a BIG NUKE, and then having a teammate use Transference to completely fill your END from a nearby boss. Even running Leadership, Dispersion Bubbles, and attacking fast, we will NOT have Endurance problems.
The Recharge Reduction bonus of Speed Boost is 50%. The Sonics and FFs will get +200%, while the Kinetics will get +150% (can't target yourself). Of course the Kinetics also get a small Recharge Reduction bonus from Siphon Speed, so they may hit +200% as well. No need for Hasten, with it's minor +70%.
Speed Boost also provides a significant run speed increase. I'll be testing it when I get it, and believe me when I say I know how to test movement powers. At level 12, Speed Boost will give everyone Super Speed. At level 18, we'll get Super Jump as well from Inertial Reduction. I recommend the Kinetics take Recall Friend, and maybe Teleport (6-slotted for range). But that's all the team will need. Other than Teleport, no one will need a travel power! Of course you can easily take Hover, 6-slot it, and REALLY move. But not many tanks use hover.
That's the beauty of SuperTeams. This team is incredibly more powerful than each individual member. A few power choices from Primary powersets means no one needs Fitness, Speed, Flying, or Jumping. (Stamina and Hasten haters, welcome to Utopia.) Everyone can take Medicine, just in case the bubbles run out in the middle of combat. Everyone can take Leadership, which combined with more Kinetics buffs means there's no need to slot attack powers for Accuracy or Damage after level 32. No need for slots in Recharge Reduction either, due to Speed Boost. All of those spare slots can be used to make your buffs, debuffs, and other powers even more powerful.
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WingedKagouti: ...
Disruption Field is less -Res than EF, it can miss (quite frequently too) and it doesn't accept Accuracy enhancements.
You need to stack some 8-10 Blast DeBuffs to cap or 5-6 if the target is hit by Sonic Siphon, so unless you have 4 /Sonic spamming Howl (with perma-Hasten) you can use another character with an AoE -Res DeBuff, assuming that both Sonic/ have Disruption Field active.
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I wonder if the lack of Accuracy Enhancements on Disruption Field is a bug or intended.
Looks like I REALLY need to test the resistance debuff. But given the Recharge Reduction of 4 stacked Speed Boost, 4 /Sonics spamming Howl may be overkill. Howl is going to recharge pretty fast. I guess I know what I'm testing tonight.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
unfortuntly virtue is uccupied by the 8 folk in my sig sure you can do it elese where ireally wanty to join you but i dont want to delete my crew
besides if we playing as a team will it really matter what server we rp on?
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
Darn.
I'd have been interested in this, and if it were on Virtue I could fund the team as well (well, after Red does a couple of missions, she funds too much >.>
but being in Europe 8 PM - midnight EST is pretty much the middle of the night for me. So that's a no-go there. Would have been a perfect opportunity to try out Sonic Resonance as well, since I already have a mid-level FF and Kin on Virtue.
I saw stuff on the all Rad team and it looked pretty cool. On the kinetics (I got a lvl 21 kin/elc defender on another server). The speed boost only last for two minutes and its a pain to cover a big team constantly. Its a quality of life issue might work best if assignments were made to cover certain people on the team and perhaps not all of them. Kinetics know about the handshake.
Increase density is nice but with a limited duration .. could help with some of the knockback issue and immobalizations.
Inertial Reduction is fun and its nice to not have to need a travel power bewteen siphon speed and Inertial Reduction but again IR does not last long but should cover people moving from mission to mission on most maps. Team will need to work together to cover each other. Might work best if someone had fly and recall .. speed boost the flyer to next mission door and recall the team.
I look forward to seeing the clips and some stories about the Tank-Mages.
Cardioverter II - kin/ele
Victory Server
I did some testing with my Sonic/Sonic on the test server. The first 3 Sonic attacks, Shriek, Scream, and Howl, all debuff Resistance by 20% versus even con mobs. That means that attacks do 20% more damage. This is adjusted for level differences the same way damage is. Against +2 and +3 mobs (our likely targets), I think that brings it down to about 16% and 13%. Howl cycles in about 12.6 seconds, and the debuff lasts 13.7 seconds. I didn't get Activation and Recharge times, but I'll do that tonight. I'll also try to get level 10 on my Sonic/Sonic so I can test Shockwave. With enough Recharge Reduction, I expect we could alternate Howl and Shockwave. Based on the descriptions, it doesn't look like Shockwave has a Resistance debuff. But that still means we have a double Howl Resistance debuff per /Sonic char.
I'm assuming Disruption Field is going to be somewhat similar to the Sonic attacks, around +20%. As such, it looks like most of our Resistance debuff will have to come from the Sonic Attacks secondary. Tonight I'll get Activation and Recharge times for the first 3 attacks, and I'll try to find another Sonic to see if we can cap the Resistance debuff. With another */Sonic, I should be able to determine if the cap is +100% or below. If the cap is higher than I can easily test (+200% or more), then we may go all */Sonics. I really like Dark Blast, with an AoE Disorient and 3 cone attacks. I also think Electric Blasts would be nice, with Short Circuit 6 slotted for Endurance Drain. But DPS is king, and we should be able to manage just fine using Sonic Attacks.
The Sonic Attacks secondary has 3 Cone attacks, which is good. The last one is a Sleep with minor damage and long recharge, which is bad. Sleep is completely useless in big AoE based teams, and the Minor damage and Long recharge are discouraging. The second cone has knockback, which can be bad. As Tanks we likely won't need to use Knockback for damage mitigation. But if everyone on the team has Knockback attacks and Repulsion Field or equivalent, we might as well learn to use them effectively. I expect every combat will start with Siphon Power / Fulcrum Shift, Howl, and Shockwave. We'll see if we need anything after that.
So stop levelling your FFs and Kins on Virtue. I'll do some more testing tonight, and hopefully I'll be able to determine how many */Sonics we want. If we're gonna have mostly Sonic Attack secondaries, we should probably all start out at level 1 when Update 5 goes live. There's no reason for me to level up a character except to start the SG, but that's a minor consideration.
So I guess I'll consider a different server. My slots on Freedom are spoken for. Neko_Lurker doesn't want Virtue. I'll give priority to any server with a level 50 char willing to bankroll us.
One more thing... SuperTeams earn more Influence than normal teams due to fighting higher class mobs (Lts and Bosses have a higher Inf/XP ratio) and getting more Enhancement drops to sell (more yellow mobs). They also need less Influence than normal teams (fighting higher level mobs means higher level Enhancement drops which can be used longer). But there will still likely be a gap at 22 and 27 where we won't be able to buy a full set of SOs. That's why I'm looking for a level 50 char to help bankroll us.
Finally Origin... If we go mostly */Sonics, we'll be doing Smashing and Energy damage. This team has a major weakness to Psi damage. Speed Boost at level 12 means we are effectively immune to END Drain. The best mobs to fight are Clockwork up to 20, and Freakshow up to 50. Those both drop Tech Enhancements. I recommend Tech Origin characters.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
If you want to run it on Protector, I have 1, maybe 2 50's to bankroll, and 2-3 that would join up as well. I have 2 free toon slots there as well
@PhoenixCreation
Starada Y'vana lvl 50 Ice/Storm Controller
Sounds great. Protector it is. (Now we wait for people to complain that they can't do it on Protector.)
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
I'm big on SuperTeams. That means teams that are more than just a group of people playing together. SuperTeams are teams that are SIGNIFICANTLY more than the sum of their parts.
My first SuperTeam was all-Rads. Why is an all-Rad team a SuperTeam? Because the team buffs and mob debuffs, stacked up to 8 times, are just sickly overpowering. See the SG link in my sig for the gory details. I founded the Buffer Overrun Super Group and recruited lots of Radiation/* Defenders and */Radiation Controllers. It took me 6 weeks to level a Controller from 1 to 50. We had another round of recruiting less than a month ago, and we already have multiple level 50 characters. I could make another Rad, but I want to try something new.
With Update 5, my new SuperTeam is gonna be Tank Mages. You know, the thing Statesman always says he is trying to avoid. A Tank Mage is a ranged attacker with great offense and defense. Why is it bad? Well, you don't need anyone else. You just stand there and blast mobs at range. No need for Tankers or Scrappers to Taunt, Challenge, or Provoke mobs and manage agro. No need for Controllers to control the mobs. Tank Mages have enough Defense that mob attacks can be ignored. You blast at the mobs till they decide to run, then you snipe the runners!
What AT do you need? Defenders. Nothing else. What sort of Defenders? Mainly Sonic Debuff (soon to be Sonic Resonance), and Force Field. How does it work? At low levels, Force Field Defenders can give teammates bubbles that provide Defense against most forms of damage. Sonic Debuff Defenders can give people bubble equivalents that provide Resistance. Stack a few Force Field bubbles, even the reduced ones from Update 5, and you'll drop a mobs chance to hit down to 5% for most forms of damage. Stack a few Sonic bubbles, and you'll hit the 75% Resistance cap. You will hardly ever be hit, and if you are it will hardly hurt.
How many of each Defender type do you need? It takes 4 Sonics at low levels to cap Resistance, only 3 at level 12 with some Dual Origin Enhancements, and only 2 at level 22 with Single Origin Enhancements (based on the numbers I've heard). Note that since they can't bubble themselves, the Sonics would have significantly reduced Resistance if there were only 2. Against mobs with -RES debuffs, that could be deadly. You don't really need to cap Resistance at low levels, since mobs don't hit too hard. That means 3 is a good number of Sonics to have for the entire 1-50 range. I don't know about the numbers for Force Field, but I would expect 3 would be appropriate. Using 4 of either would be overkill, and we have a limited number of slots.
Protection from status effects is important too. Force Field Defenders get Dispersion Bubble at level 12 which provides protection from Hold, Immob, and Disorient. Sonic Debuff Defenders get a sonic equivalent. Stacked 6 times, taking into account the 5% chance to be hit, you don't have to worry about those status effects. If you're worried about Knockback, take Acrobatics.
That's the tanking part, now for the Mage part. How can a bunch of Defenders do a lot of damage? Well, Sonics get a debuff that can lower mob Resistance. Stack that a few times, and the mobs are gonna be taking a LOT more damage than usual. Anyone know the resistance debuff cap? Defenders get a decent DMG bonus fron Leadership : Assault, and you can stack that 8 times if everyone takes it. If you have Assault, you might as well take Tactics, to give everyone a huge To Hit bonus (huge when stacked 8 times). (No need for Maneuvers, it's useless compared to Force Fields.) Attacks can be slotted for damage only. If I've done my math right, you can slot attacks with 5 green Damage SOs and be at the damage cap. No need to take Aim, it's a wasted power.
Also, no need for Defense, Damage, or Accuracy Inspirations either. I found with all-Rads in Buffer Overrun that Inspirations are almost forgotten.
It looks like we only need 6 Defenders to make us tanks. That leaves 2 more slots for other chars. Why 8 players? You get more bosses, more mobs, higher level mobs (for teams of 6+), and a high team size XP bonus (x2.3). That means more and better Enhancement drops, a higher Influence/XP ratio (so you can buy better Enhancements), and faster levels all around. SuperTeams are big teams.
To be a SuperTeam, the other 2 slots have to make a significant contribution to the team as a whole. Defenders again are the best choice. Granted Blasters could do higher damage, they don't help the team. And believe me, this team can put mobs down fast enough without Blaster damage. The last 2 slots are for Kinetics Defenders. They have a situational Heal, which is probably all we'll ever need (when someone forgets to refresh bubbles). They have Siphon Power and Fulcrum Shift, both of which increase the damage capacity of the entire team while reducing the damage done by mobs. This means higher team damage at low levels, and the ability to respec slots out of attacks at higher levels, ideally to improve team oriented powers. They have Increase Density to protect against Knockback, the only thing Dispersion Bubble doesn't cover. It also acts as Clear Mind in case someone is mezzed. They have Speed Boost and Inertial Reduction to give the team faster movement. Speed Boost and Transference help with Endurance, and Speed Boost also provides a Recharge Reduction bonus on everything. Kinetics Defenders fill the holes in the team nicely, and reduce downtime.
We should also discuss Secondary power sets. Remember the SuperTeam concept; you want power sets that work well in the team. AoE is VERY GOOD, as you'll always be facing large groups of mobs. When I refer to AoE below, I'm referring to the fast recharge AoEs, not the BIG NUKES at the end of each secondary.
Electric is OK alone, but should work well if several people take it. Given the Leadership bonuses, you can slot up the key powers for heavy Endurance Drain. Stacked from multiple people, it might be effective at stoping mobs from doing much. While we're not too worried about mobs attacking, it's still a good idea. It has 2 AoEs (one is PBAoE) that come at very low level and a virtual pet.
Energy is not good for this group. It has 2 AoEs, but one comes at 35. It does knockback, which isn't all that necessary. There are better choices.
Dark is a serious contender. It has 3 cones (one Immob, one Knockback), plus an AoE disorient, and decent single target damage. It gives mobs a -ACC debuff, good for AVs or buffed mobs that might otherwise hit through the Force Fields. It even has a heal at level 35. What's not to like?
Psychic is probably another one to skip. It has 2 AoEs and various status effects, but it falls far short of Dark.
Radiation is fairly good. It has 3 AoEs (1 PBAoE), 2 of which come early, but 1 comes at 35. Single target damage is fast but lower than dark. The attacks give a -DEF debuff, which can help at low levels.
I don't know enough about the new Archery set to make an informed decision. Compared to Dark, can anyone tell me how it rates?
Sonic Attacks are probably not necessary unless they have nice AoEs. Their secondary effect of -RES debuff is already handled by the Sonic Debuff Primary.
I think the following is the best mix or primaries and secondaries.
3 Sonic/Dark Defenders
3 FF/Elec Defenders
2 Kinetics/Dark Defenders
Why those? Let me explain. But first you have to remember, these are Tank Mages. They are not afraid to get into melee combat. They have the equivalent of Update 4 Invuln Scrapper Ressitance with Invincibility for Defense.
Step 1: Everyone jumps RIGHT INTO THE MIDDLE of the mobs!
Step 2: Sonics use -RES debuffs
Kins hit Siphon Power (bosses) or Fulcrum Shift at level 32
FFs hit Short Circuit (near bosses)
Step 3: Kins hit Transfusion (bosses) if anyone needs healing
Everyone backs up a bit, with the Darks using cone immobs
Step 4: AoE or single target attack till everything drops
Step 5: Refresh bubbles or other buffs if necessary
There are a couple other aspects of a SuperTeam. For Movement, it would be nice if 2 or more people took Teleport with Recall Friend. They can move the entire team around quickly and easily, and it's great for moving SKs before they get their movement power.
It would be nice if 2 or more people took Concealment: Grant Invisibility. This will give the entire team full invisibility.
It would be nice if 2 or more people took the Medicine pool. An out of combat heal will often be handy, Stimulant may be necessary against particularly mez heavy mobs, and you never know when you'll need a Resuscitate.
Everyone should take Leadership, most people will take Fitness, and most people will take a conventional movement power (Flying, Super Leaping, or Super Speed). Note that the Kins can give Inertial Reduction, and we'll have TPers, so Hasten plus Super Speed works just fine for movement.
That leaves one extra power pool from the above set. If the Kins skip a movement power (because they can), they can pick 2 of the above. Between 8 of us, we should be able to cover all of the pools with lots of overlap.
By the way, this isn't all carved in stone. Only the primaries are carved in stone. Secondaries and pools are not. If you really want Archery, go ahead. If you really don't want Leadership, then skip it. But remember, every team oriented power you take helps the entire team.
One last thing... Pick you enemies! This team is very weak against Psychic enemies. We avoid them! The best targets are those who are weak to negative energy. We fight them a lot! Simple.
This is my plan. Does anyone have any constructive criticism? Is there anything I missed? Anything you would do differently? If so, please post here, and explain why it would be better?
Finally, I'd like to try this out on test. I'm probably going to be on the Test Server tonight (Friday, July 22) around 9:45 PM EST in Atlas Park looking for people to try this. My global chat handle is @TopDoc on live and test.
If you want in, feel free to post here to reserve a spot. But make sure you're on by 10:15 PM EST tonight. Otherwise, it's first come, first served. I'm only available in the evenings, though sometimes I get a little spare time on the weekends. I usually play from 8:00 PM EST till 11:00 or midnight or so.
If this works out very well, I'll likely want to continue it once Update 5 goes live. Those interested can post here or otherwise let me know. We'll pick a server.
Let me start by reserving a character. I'll be a FF/Elec Defender. For pool powers, I'll take Leadership, Fitness, Speed, and Teleport. I like Teleport, and I used it in all-Rad teams to move people around fast.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304