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I think a better team would be:
...
What do you think?
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The double FF and Sonic Controller and Defender pairs mean everyone will be about as safe. But I think it would move slower, attack slower, do less damage, level slower, and have to worry about Endurance more than a SuperTeam like the one I've described here. I do not think it would be better. I like moving fast, attacking fast, doing lots of damage, levelling fast, and not having to worry about Endurance. But "better" is subjective. What's your definition of better, and why do you think it would be better?
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
OK, I finally managed to test Resistance. This was all done on Live. My level 9 Rad Defender used Enervating Field against an even level mob and did 37.5% more damage than without it. That's the current base Resistance debuff for EF. My level 36 Rad Defender against a level 1 Hellion did +172.5% damage, which is exactly what I would expect given that the resistance debuff scales like damage. (You do 4.6 times as much damage to mobs 35 levels below you.) EF from a level 50 Controller let me do +180% damage, which means the Controller base Resistance debuff is 30%, as the damage multiplier is 6.0 for mobs 49 levels below you. With both EFs, I only did +300% damage. I should have done +352.5%.
So the Resistance debuff cap is +300%. Sonic Siphon is +30%, and I'll assume the AoE version Disruption Field is the same (correct me if I'm wrong). With 2 Sonic/* Defenders, we're at +60%. Counting only AoE (Howl) at 20%, and given the Recharge Reduction from Speed Boost and maybe slots, every */Sonic defender can Howl fast enough to stack 2 debuffs for +40%. With 6 /Sonics, we can cap the Resistance debuff after the second set of Howls. I'll have to check the timing to determine if the debuff from the first set will still be active when the third set comes around. Given that the Howls won't be synchronized, and there's a chance they'll miss, and they'll only hit a limited number of targets (which may be different that the targets hit by other people), it looks like we'll be below the Resistance debuff cap most of the time with only 6 people. Against bosses, using single target attacks (Scream?) with debuffs between the Howls, we'll easily reach the cap.
At the moment, I'm going to HIGHLY recommend that everyone take Sonic Attacks as their secondary.
NOTE: I won't turn anyone away from the SG if they're Defenders with the right primary powers. You can play a Kin/Dark or FF/Psi if you want. I won't turn people away if they refuse to take Leadership. I won't turn people away if they take Stamina. But take a look at the previous builds I posted. They are designed to be played on a team containing characters with similar builds. And they rely on teammates having certain powers. If everyone skips Assault and Tactics, you're gonna miss a lot, and damage won't be capped till Fulcrum Shift. If half of the team takes a non-Sonic secondary, the damage won't be maxed. Will we survive? Probably. But the object of the SuperTeam is to make the best choices for the good of the team.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
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I think a better team would be:
sonic/sonic defender
ff/dark defender
ill/sonic controller
earth/ff controller
dark/dark defender
fire/fire tank
warshade
peacebringer
What do you think?
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sure, maybe. but you would have to have all the players on the same page, you leave no room for error, and you have a lot of heroes weak in the beginning which would hold back the team.
Balanced, yes, good job even. better? no.
the tank mage theory from the start is taking the weakest solo AT and making it the strongest team AT.
i would have to say tank mage(all armor defenders) is the best idea so far, next would be the rad team, then the horde team(pet controllers).
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(Fulcrum Shift is a waste if you bring 4 Kins with SP in a party with 8 Defs all running Assault)
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Not completely true, The dmg buff is wasted but the mob debuff is still applicable. So everything in the radius of FS will be doing -25% dmg for each FS application. under the I5 rules, THat's gonna be sets of 10 but many of them will be dealing 50-75% less damage. And if I understand how those numbers work, this reduced damage will get further reduced by the resistances that everyone on the team will sport.
TopDoc, I started a FF/Dark last night on Protector for this team and i'll try to get him to 10 ASAP in order to reserve the name for the SG. Did you want it called "Tank Mages" or "Tank Magi" or somthing else?
I'll re-roll as a FF/Sonic when I5 is released so that I can boost the -res component along with the others. My build will be completely team dependant and I don't intend to play him outside of the SG, I have many other heroes that I can do that with.
Just to mention possible benefits for having a few */Dark on the team. We will not have any holds or significant status effects if we all go sonics (unless there is a status in there that i'm not aware of, I didn't check) With a few TT and dark pits we can disable significant groups of mobs. and I recently read that the FF repulsion bomb, now does disorient as well (can stack with dark pit). I'm thinking about some of those annoying mobs that are much easier dealt with status effects (I know we most likely will avoid some of them IE: Tsoo sorcerers). Also TT will help keep things together for the sonic cone attacks. As a side benefit the tohit debuff from /dark blast will help mitigate some of the damage to the FF defender seeing as they won't have capped defense like the rest of the team.
As a note on your kinetic build posted above,
I see no need to slot inertial reduction at all and the same for increase density. If we have 4 kins on the team (even 2 can cap the jumping movement i believe) casting the same buffs they don't need to be slotted. the sonics alone will cap our resists to smashing/energy right? so increase density becomes our mez protection.
I'm REALLY looking forward to I5 going live now!
EDIT: Same thing with the 6 slotted hovers. Speed boost affects hover speed, you bet it'll be capped with just a few applications.
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I agree that Psi isn't a good choice. But I can't understand why you think /Sonic lacks AoEs.
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Minor damage isn't good enough for a damage AoE IMO. Sonic Blast only has 1 AoE (beyond Wail) that deals more than Minor damage. Also only Howl is listed as having -Res as a secondary effect out of the 3 non-nuke AoEs.
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Good points. I'm glad someone is keeping me honest here.
But consider the Resistance debuff. I think it more than makes up for having more minor damage attacks.
Let's compare it to Dark, which appears to have the best AoEs. I think Dark has 2 Moderates and a Minor cone, though the description doesn't say. You should be able to chain the 3 cones nonstop, or come close. With 2 Disruption Fields, each person will do (Moderate*2 + Minor) * 1.6. I don't have the numbers for all of the Dark attacks, but let's assume a Moderate attack does 2 bits and a Minor attack does 1 bit. A complete Dark chain will do 8 bits worth of damage.
With everyone using Sonic Attacks, you can again chain the 3 cones or come close. Only 1 appears to have the -Res debuff, but you can likely stack it twice. Assuming the stacking isn't perfect, and taking the average debuff as the Howls hit, the first cycle will be around Moderate * 2.2 + Minor * 2 * 2.8, and the second and later cycles will be Moderate * 3.4 + Minor * 2 * 4.0. The first chain will do 10 bits worth of damage, while the second and later ones will do 14.8 bits.
Granted Dark and Sonics attacks do close to the same number of bits of damage on the first chain. In fact these calculations are bad enough that the I'd consider them equal. (I'd need Brawl Indexes and good Activation and Recharge times to get good numbers.) However, the second cycle of Sonic attacks appears to be a fair amount better than the dark atacks.
(I do have a level 29 Emp/Dark Defender, so I can get all the Dark numbers I need given a little testing. But I can't do the same with /Sonics. :-( Anyone have a level 28+ /Sonic on test with all of the AoEs and a half hour to spare?)
Also take into account the single target attacks used to finish off bosses. The Sonic ones all have Resistance debuffs, and will stack on top of any current AoE debuffs to reach +300% very quickly. Dark will stay at +60%. The base damage of the attacks is comparable, so the Sonics will quickly be doing 2.5 times as much damage.
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In the other post you criticize me for slotting the attacks and then later on in your post suggest 6 slotting them. You also question me picking stuff like Maneuvers (which does protect against the one major hole in this setup: Psionics) but later go on to notice that you can actually pick and slot just about anything you want to. As long as you pick & slot the basic required stuff for your powersets of course.
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Your attack power slots were empty, so I didn't know what you were using them for. I only advocated slotting attacks for recharge in order to chain AoEs. What did you intend to slot in your attacks, and why?
As for Maneuvers, you never said it was mainly for Psi defense. If we avoid Psi mobs as I've been saying, Maneuvers only gives Defense, which is already handled (better) by the Force Fields.
But I think you have a point with Maneuvers. I don't know how much defense it provides on test, but fully slotted and stacked 8 times by Defenders it had better be significant. It should take a big bite out of Psi damage. It will also provide enough Defense that the FFs won't need to take Power Mastery for Power Buildup in order to cast extra strong bubbles on each other. Everyone can take Psychic Mastery for Mind Over Body and Psi Resistance at level 44.
All this means that Psychic mobs can probably be dealt with if everyone takes Maneuvers. Since there are Psi mobs in the game that we will have to deal with from time to time (cape mission, last Respec, TFs, etc.), I think I'm going to officially reverse my opinion on both Maneuvers and Psi mobs. I recommend everyone take Maneuvers, and we shouldn't specifically avoid Psi mobs like the plague.
I rejected some of your choices because I didn't see a need for them, and you didn't explain them. When I rejected them, I explained why. You came back with a counter for some, and I expect we'll bounce back and forth some more over some of the items. But at least we're both learning the reasons for the choices.
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Aim/Amplify were taken mainly to advance in level so I could get to the higher level powers, the same can be said for almost anything that isn't in the required stuff.
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There wasn't anything else worth taking when you hit that level, so you took Aim. OK. I chose different powers that I felt could be used, even if rarely.
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For the FF'ers the required stuff is the 3 bubbles, for the Sonics it's the 3 shields + Disruption Field. Kins are there to use Transfusion, Siphon Power (Fulcrum Shift is a waste if you bring 4 Kins with SP in a party with 8 Defs all running Assault) and Speed Boost. Rads would be Radiant Aura, Accelerate Metabolism & Enervating Field.
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I'd add either Repulsion Field or Force Bubble for FFs. The team will have very few if any melee attacks, so there's no reason to let mobs close to melee range. Granted Kinetics get Repel and Sonics get something similar, I think FFs have the most powers to skip in their primary. I've never played an FF to any significant level. Can anyone tell me how these work?
I wouldn't say Fulcrum Shift is a waste. Remember it is also an AoE Damage debuff. That's a pretty minor concern given the team's defenses, but not against Psi mobs. For them, it can be our second line of damage mitigation. It has twice the duration and Damage buff of Siphon Power, and that's ignoring the extra damage buff you can get near the mobs. You cast it once at the start of combat, when everyone is gathered around, and they will be capped for 30 seconds. With Siphon Power, you have to recast it in the middle of combat to hit the cap, and you may not buff everyone in the team if they've moved around to attack. Siphon Power is a waste once you have Fulcrum Shift.
Kins can use Siphon Speed (Heresy! A personal buff!) between level 6 and 12 as a travel power. A Kin with this and Recall Friend could move the team around far faster than Sprint. Of course you only need 1 per team, and they can respec out of it after level 12 and Speed Boost.
Increase Density can help against Smashing and Energy damage before the Sonic bubbles are fully slotted with SOs. It'll be great against Clockwork. It's status protection between 8 and 12, when FFs get Dispersion Bubble. But it may be needed up till 26 when Sonics get their Sonic Dispersion Bubble, against particularly mez heavy mobs. Stimulant also provides status protection, but Increase Density appears to be a better choice due to its extra resistance. It slows you down, so maybe you only stack it on a single Kin with Siphon Speed who always takes the mob alpha strike. Any volunteers? Increase Density doesn't give Sleep resistance, so Stimulant will be needed for that.
Inertial Reduction gives you Z axis movement, which can be important when maneuvering in certain mission maps or zones. Sure the Kins can Teleport and Recall Friend the entire team, but that's less efficient for short distances.
Transference is a must-have for casting after BIG NUKES. Normally I have to take a CAB or 2, and watch my Endurance till the 0 Recovery buff wears off. Transference lets the nuker immediately turn on toggles and attack full speed, as it can completely fill the Endurance bar. Our BIG NUKES can be 6 slotted for Recharge to use them as often as possible (once per person every 2 minutes, probably 2 per combat). The only problem I can see is that there may not be any mobs left to target. It's also good for instantly draining dangerous bosses (Rikti Chief Mentalists), and even AVs in around 15 seconds (cast twice by 4 Kins). But again, I expect this team will be defeating all but the high end AVs in around 15 seconds.
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Everyone should of course have at least 1 AoE (preferably 2), 2 or 3 single target attacks, Assault & Tactics. SR/Clarity would be nice but only really needed vs Sleep due to massive resists from 4 different stacked fields (2x FF & 2x SR) covering Hold & Disorient.
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Sounds good for the attacks. I'd say take every AoE possible. We're always gonna be in big teams, so the AoEs will never be wasted.
But Clarity, Stimulant, and Increase Density may be needed more often than you think. We're gonna be moving fast. It'll be easy to wander out of the bubbles, and we can be hit. We won't have all 4 bubbles till 26.
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Anything beyond those powers is pure fluff and only really taken to level up. The Psi APP is nice fluff (like Maneuvers it covers a hole) but still fluff. With 2 (or more) Kins movement powers become fluff though they can still be nice to have.
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I wouldn't go quite that far. Grant Invisibility will be a staple power, as it will let us get into position for short range cones without attracting agro. Heal Other will be good if someone is hit by a boss or two at the end of combat. A lot of the Kins powers can be used in various situations. But the FFs and Sonics have some useless powers, and may well have fluff. They can get Group Fly for Hami raids. :-)
For future builds posted to this thread, it might be a good idea to specifically point out fluff powers. I don't consider any of my sample Kin powers to be fluff. But the FF has Hover, Aid Self, Temp Invulnerability, and Conserve Power that are likely useless.
Thanks for the replies so far. I look forward to your next one.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
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I agree that Psi isn't a good choice. But I can't understand why you think /Sonic lacks AoEs.
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Minor damage isn't good enough for a damage AoE IMO. Sonic Blast only has 1 AoE (beyond Wail) that deals more than Minor damage. Also only Howl is listed as having -Res as a secondary effect out of the 3 non-nuke AoEs.
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Good points. I'm glad someone is keeping me honest here.
But consider the Resistance debuff. I think it more than makes up for having more minor damage attacks.
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I'd still prefer having a ranged AoE and a PBAoE simply due to the added amount of targets you can hit with the target limit rules (16 for Ranged AoE vs 10 for PBAoE/Cone). Thus my preference for Electrical Blast on at least half the team. Ball Lightning has a 60% advantage over Howl before Howl starts debuffing.
If you aren't considering that rule I'd say that mass Sonic Blast is good. The Dark cones are iirc very good for damage, but Sonic + Dark will probably fall behind against either setup (Sonic + Elec & pure Sonic).
As for attack power slotting I'd say that if you're always guaranteed to team up with 4 Kins you should go for 3 Damage or secondary effect (where possible/beneficial) due to stacked Speed Boost. If you have 2 or less Kins I'd say Recharge, Endurance or secondary effect.
As for Fulcrum Shift being used as a Debuff, remember it is limited to 10 targets. It will probably be most useful to use against AVs in conjunction with Siphon Power as a Damage Debuff to keep them at the floor (10% of base iirc). If 4 Kins can do this with SP alone then FS isn't of much use in such a team, minions will fall fast and lieutenants won't be far behind. Bosses are not going to be much of a problem either with a team like this. You'll unlikely be able to floor their Resistance (25% of normal, or a +300% damage boost) before they fall over.
One thing to keep in mind that doesn't apply to the all-rad concept is time to buff. The sonic shields have a nice long duration, but for kinetics your speed boost is a 2min duration. If each kinetic needs to speed boost 7 other people it will take about 20-25 seconds. That's a significant about of time to require everyone to stand around every two minutes during a mission. Bubblers aren't quite as bad with two shields each. Assuming it takes 2.5 secs to put each shield up they waste 35 seconds out of each four or five minutes. The most efficient way to buff would then be to do all buffs (taking 35 seconds), then two minutes later do speed buffs again. Then two minutes after that do all of the buffs again. That amounts to a minute downtime per 4 minutes. That's a lot of downtime.
I've been in 8-man kinetics teams before, and it's a serious issue. It can work well with some patience, but it won't be quite as fast and furious as 8-man rad teams.
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I agree that Psi isn't a good choice. But I can't understand why you think /Sonic lacks AoEs.
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Minor damage isn't good enough for a damage AoE IMO. Sonic Blast only has 1 AoE (beyond Wail) that deals more than Minor damage. Also only Howl is listed as having -Res as a secondary effect out of the 3 non-nuke AoEs.
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Good points. I'm glad someone is keeping me honest here.
But consider the Resistance debuff. I think it more than makes up for having more minor damage attacks.
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I'd still prefer having a ranged AoE and a PBAoE simply due to the added amount of targets you can hit with the target limit rules (16 for Ranged AoE vs 10 for PBAoE/Cone). Thus my preference for Electrical Blast on at least half the team. Ball Lightning has a 60% advantage over Howl before Howl starts debuffing.
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i could have sworn that Novas were 16 and everything else was 10 except for taunts which are 5.
and if you are right and ranged aoe's are 16, then what is the amount of nova?
Don't get me wrong, i like /elec because you get a second to do what ever when they are shaking after getting hit, but the themes seem to be -res. And with /sonic getting that, /sonic will do more damage over time.
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That's 42 buffs, minus the ones you can't cast on yourself. The word Unbreakable comes to mind. How many buffs fit on a line?
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from what i remember i think it is 12 buffs on each line for a max of 60 buffs. i may be wrong in that being its been a while since ive been able to play. i would definately be down for this superteam.
sorry for the late post, just started reading the forums just now 
kendallnator - 50 emp/elec defender
ebola zaire - 41 spines/regen scrapper
----Freedom-------------
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I agree that Psi isn't a good choice. But I can't understand why you think /Sonic lacks AoEs.
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Minor damage isn't good enough for a damage AoE IMO. Sonic Blast only has 1 AoE (beyond Wail) that deals more than Minor damage. Also only Howl is listed as having -Res as a secondary effect out of the 3 non-nuke AoEs.
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Good points. I'm glad someone is keeping me honest here.
But consider the Resistance debuff. I think it more than makes up for having more minor damage attacks.
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I'd still prefer having a ranged AoE and a PBAoE simply due to the added amount of targets you can hit with the target limit rules (16 for Ranged AoE vs 10 for PBAoE/Cone). Thus my preference for Electrical Blast on at least half the team. Ball Lightning has a 60% advantage over Howl before Howl starts debuffing.
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i could have sworn that Novas were 16 and everything else was 10 except for taunts which are 5.
and if you are right and ranged aoe's are 16, then what is the amount of nova?
Don't get me wrong, i like /elec because you get a second to do what ever when they are shaking after getting hit, but the themes seem to be -res. And with /sonic getting that, /sonic will do more damage over time.
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From the patch notes:
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Set a Max Number of Targets that can be affected by most offensive powers. AoE Debuffs, Ranged cones, and Melee AoE (PBAoE) are set to 10. Some Large PBAoE (like Nova) is 16. Melee Cones have been set to 5. Ranged AoE damage powers are 16. Taunts (including Tanker inherent Taunt - PunchVoke) max is set to 5. Buffs are unaffected. Dev note: This will limit the amount of “herding” done by players to a more reasonable and realistic level.
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The big nukes & PBAoE stuff like EM Pulse has 16 max targets along with Ranged AoE damage.
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I'd add either Repulsion Field or Force Bubble for FFs. The team will have very few if any melee attacks, so there's no reason to let mobs close to melee range.
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The large defense and resistance buffs should shrug off the worst of melee damage, Transfusion requires everyone to be near an enemy, and there are no psychic melee attacks in the game. The fact that there should be a great number of people on the team with Shockwave should be enough keep-away power if it is needed. But it doesn't seem like a major point either way.
"Added Psionic Defense to Force Field/Dispersion Bubble. "
Concern mentioned it in another thread and it struck a cord. I had to confirm it in the patch notes. woohoo!
I wouldn't expect the amount be very big but it's something. add that to maneuvres and we should do ok against Psi ennemies.
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TopDoc, I started a FF/Dark last night on Protector for this team and i'll try to get him to 10 ASAP in order to reserve the name for the SG. Did you want it called "Tank Mages" or "Tank Magi" or somthing else?
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I'd say "Tank Mages".
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I'll re-roll as a FF/Sonic when I5 is released so that I can boost the -res component along with the others. My build will be completely team dependant and I don't intend to play him outside of the SG, I have many other heroes that I can do that with.
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That's how most people will probably be. Without Hasten, Stamina, and movement powers, these characters won't do well outside of the SG.
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Just to mention possible benefits for having a few */Dark on the team. We will not have any holds or significant status effects if we all go sonics (unless there is a status in there that i'm not aware of, I didn't check) With a few TT and dark pits we can disable significant groups of mobs. and I recently read that the FF repulsion bomb, now does disorient as well (can stack with dark pit). I'm thinking about some of those annoying mobs that are much easier dealt with status effects (I know we most likely will avoid some of them IE: Tsoo sorcerers). Also TT will help keep things together for the sonic cone attacks. As a side benefit the tohit debuff from /dark blast will help mitigate some of the damage to the FF defender seeing as they won't have capped defense like the rest of the team.
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Yep, I'd really like Dark for those same reasons. The problem is identifying the different capabilities in the power sets and evaluating them as they would be used by the SuperTeam. Sure Dark has a Disorient and an Immob. Do we want or need them? I don't really know. Think outside the box. We've already discarded 6 slotted attacks, Stamina, Hasten, and individual movement powers. Maybe we can discard locking down mobs as well.
Disoriented mobs just wander around and do not use powers. Do we really care if mobs use powers. How often do Tanks ask Controllers to lock down mobs before they move in to attack? Pretty much never. Attacks don't really worry tanks much, and we're gonna be tanks. What would worry us? I don't really know. I can't think of anything.
Dark Pit is a Magnitude 1 Disorient, which means is only affects Minions unless stacked. It has a duration of 10 seconds, or about 7 seconds versus +3 mobs, and recharges in 60 seconds. We won't care about Minions, but Lieutenants and Bosses might be worth disorienting. This might be a good attack if several Darks use it after the minions go down. That means we would need probably 4+ Darks to reliably lock down almost everything.
Immobilized mobs don't move, but they do attack. Mobs normally start out nice and clustered, and keeping them that way will help us catch lots of them with our AoEs. This is a big plus. But what if everything except bosses goes down in our alpha strike, before the mobs have had a chance to move far? Defeat removes the need for Immobilize. Against remaining bosses we'll likely use single target attacks. Immobilized mobs don't run away. Do we care if mobs run away? A little. We need to worry about staying inside stacked Dispersion bubbles.
If you can see any better uses for Disorient and Immob attacks, let me know. In a Tank Mage team, they appear to give some benefit, but they are not on the "must have" list. Otherwise the main things to compare are damage and other secondary effects. I think Sonic has better damage (see my previous post). Sonic Attacks have the Resistance debuff, but that's been taking into account looking at damage. Dark has an Accuracy debuff. Is this useful, perhaps for the FFs without double bubbles? I don't think so, now that hopefully everyone will be taking Maneuvers. One set of bubbles, two Dispersion bubbles, and 8 Maneuvers 6 slotted and run by Defenders should floor everything except maybe AVs using AoE attacks. I can't see taking Dark just for that.
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As a note on your kinetic build posted above,
I see no need to slot inertial reduction at all and the same for increase density. If we have 4 kins on the team (even 2 can cap the jumping movement i believe) casting the same buffs they don't need to be slotted. the sonics alone will cap our resists to smashing/energy right? so increase density becomes our mez protection.
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I think Inertial Reduction has a 1 minute duration, while most of the other buffs have a 2 minute duration. It's likely that this will be cast in the middle of combat, or under other conditions that are less than ideal. As such, it won't always be stacked 4 times. I haven't tested it, so I don't know what it takes to cap it. I just put slots in there because I couldn't find a better place for them.
Increase Density as I had it doesn't need slots. But I think it could be nice at low levels before the Sonics can 6 slot their bubbles with SOs. We'll be able to cap Smashing and Lethal from level 8 on. We'll probably want to wait till 12 for Speed Boost though, otherwise we'll be moving REAL slow. Although a single Kinetic with Siphon Speed and some stacked Increase Density could be our Tanker's Tanker at levels 6-12.
In fact, that sounds like an excellent strategy. One Kinetic takes Siphon Speed at 6 and Recall Friend at 8. They can move the team around quickly. But they can also be the kamikaze that takes the mobs alpha strike, after being buffed by some Increase Density's from the other Kins. But as you pointed out, Increase Density probably doesn't need to be slotted.
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EDIT: Same thing with the 6 slotted hovers. Speed boost affects hover speed, you bet it'll be capped with just a few applications.
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I'm not so sure. I know how to test movement (check my sig). But I haven't ever tested Speed Boost. But I suspect you're right. Hover with 4 Speed Boosts may well cap Fly speed. That said, Hover 6 slotted can be used as a safe emergency travel power, when you don't have Speed Boost. If you are defeated and the team has no Awakens, hit the Hospital and Hover back to the team. If you need to level and buy a full set of Enhancements, the rest of the team can go on without you. When you're done, Hover back to them. Hurdle would be a lot faster than Hover in those situations, and the non-Kins could easily spare another power pick for Super Jumping.
Let me turn it around and ask you what you would do with those slots? Can you find a better place for them? Maybe to slots AoE attacks for recharge so you can chain them faster?
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AtomicPhoenix: One thing to keep in mind that doesn't apply to the all-rad concept is time to buff.
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Yep, I'm aware this is gonna be a pain. And with the huge number of buffs, it'll be hard for the FFs and Sonics to know when their bubbles have run out. We probably will need to "Gather for bubbles" and "Gather for SB" constantly.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
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TopDoc, I started a FF/Dark last night on Protector for this team and i'll try to get him to 10 ASAP in order to reserve the name for the SG. Did you want it called "Tank Mages" or "Tank Magi" or somthing else?
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I'd say "Tank Mages".
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I'll re-roll as a FF/Sonic when I5 is released so that I can boost the -res component along with the others. My build will be completely team dependant and I don't intend to play him outside of the SG, I have many other heroes that I can do that with.
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That's how most people will probably be. Without Hasten, Stamina, and movement powers, these characters won't do well outside of the SG.
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Just to mention possible benefits for having a few */Dark on the team. We will not have any holds or significant status effects if we all go sonics (unless there is a status in there that i'm not aware of, I didn't check) With a few TT and dark pits we can disable significant groups of mobs. and I recently read that the FF repulsion bomb, now does disorient as well (can stack with dark pit). I'm thinking about some of those annoying mobs that are much easier dealt with status effects (I know we most likely will avoid some of them IE: Tsoo sorcerers). Also TT will help keep things together for the sonic cone attacks. As a side benefit the tohit debuff from /dark blast will help mitigate some of the damage to the FF defender seeing as they won't have capped defense like the rest of the team.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, I'd really like Dark for those same reasons. The problem is identifying the different capabilities in the power sets and evaluating them as they would be used by the SuperTeam. Sure Dark has a Disorient and an Immob. Do we want or need them? I don't really know. Think outside the box. We've already discarded 6 slotted attacks, Stamina, Hasten, and individual movement powers. Maybe we can discard locking down mobs as well.
Disoriented mobs just wander around and do not use powers. Do we really care if mobs use powers. How often do Tanks ask Controllers to lock down mobs before they move in to attack? Pretty much never. Attacks don't really worry tanks much, and we're gonna be tanks. What would worry us? I don't really know. I can't think of anything.
Dark Pit is a Magnitude 1 Disorient, which means is only affects Minions unless stacked. It has a duration of 10 seconds, or about 7 seconds versus +3 mobs, and recharges in 60 seconds. We won't care about Minions, but Lieutenants and Bosses might be worth disorienting. This might be a good attack if several Darks use it after the minions go down. That means we would need probably 4+ Darks to reliably lock down almost everything.
Immobilized mobs don't move, but they do attack. Mobs normally start out nice and clustered, and keeping them that way will help us catch lots of them with our AoEs. This is a big plus. But what if everything except bosses goes down in our alpha strike, before the mobs have had a chance to move far? Defeat removes the need for Immobilize. Against remaining bosses we'll likely use single target attacks. Immobilized mobs don't run away. Do we care if mobs run away? A little. We need to worry about staying inside stacked Dispersion bubbles.
If you can see any better uses for Disorient and Immob attacks, let me know. In a Tank Mage team, they appear to give some benefit, but they are not on the "must have" list. Otherwise the main things to compare are damage and other secondary effects. I think Sonic has better damage (see my previous post). Sonic Attacks have the Resistance debuff, but that's been taking into account looking at damage. Dark has an Accuracy debuff. Is this useful, perhaps for the FFs without double bubbles? I don't think so, now that hopefully everyone will be taking Maneuvers. One set of bubbles, two Dispersion bubbles, and 8 Maneuvers 6 slotted and run by Defenders should floor everything except maybe AVs using AoE attacks. I can't see taking Dark just for that.
[ QUOTE ]
As a note on your kinetic build posted above,
I see no need to slot inertial reduction at all and the same for increase density. If we have 4 kins on the team (even 2 can cap the jumping movement i believe) casting the same buffs they don't need to be slotted. the sonics alone will cap our resists to smashing/energy right? so increase density becomes our mez protection.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think Inertial Reduction has a 1 minute duration, while most of the other buffs have a 2 minute duration. It's likely that this will be cast in the middle of combat, or under other conditions that are less than ideal. As such, it won't always be stacked 4 times. I haven't tested it, so I don't know what it takes to cap it. I just put slots in there because I couldn't find a better place for them.
Increase Density as I had it doesn't need slots. But I think it could be nice at low levels before the Sonics can 6 slot their bubbles with SOs. We'll be able to cap Smashing and Lethal from level 8 on. We'll probably want to wait till 12 for Speed Boost though, otherwise we'll be moving REAL slow. Although a single Kinetic with Siphon Speed and some stacked Increase Density could be our Tanker's Tanker at levels 6-12.
In fact, that sounds like an excellent strategy. One Kinetic takes Siphon Speed at 6 and Recall Friend at 8. They can move the team around quickly. But they can also be the kamikaze that takes the mobs alpha strike, after being buffed by some Increase Density's from the other Kins. But as you pointed out, Increase Density probably doesn't need to be slotted.
[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: Same thing with the 6 slotted hovers. Speed boost affects hover speed, you bet it'll be capped with just a few applications.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not so sure. I know how to test movement (check my sig). But I haven't ever tested Speed Boost. But I suspect you're right. Hover with 4 Speed Boosts may well cap Fly speed. That said, Hover 6 slotted can be used as a safe emergency travel power, when you don't have Speed Boost. If you are defeated and the team has no Awakens, hit the Hospital and Hover back to the team. If you need to level and buy a full set of Enhancements, the rest of the team can go on without you. When you're done, Hover back to them. Hurdle would be a lot faster than Hover in those situations, and the non-Kins could easily spare another power pick for Super Jumping.
Let me turn it around and ask you what you would do with those slots? Can you find a better place for them? Maybe to slots AoE attacks for recharge so you can chain them faster?
[ QUOTE ]
AtomicPhoenix: One thing to keep in mind that doesn't apply to the all-rad concept is time to buff.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, I'm aware this is gonna be a pain. And with the huge number of buffs, it'll be hard for the FFs and Sonics to know when their bubbles have run out. We probably will need to "Gather for bubbles" and "Gather for SB" constantly.
[/ QUOTE ]
the mini bubs on sonic last 5 minutes, ffs last 4 minutes
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
More notes to consider from a recent patch update on test.
Reduced damage on Sonic Attack/Shriek to match its recharge time. Reduced End cost to match new damage.
Reduced damage on Sonic Attack/Scream to match its recharge time. It was slightly too high.
Reduced damage on Sonic Attack/Howl to match its recharge time. Reduced End cost to match new damage.
Slightly increased the Recharge time on Sonic Attack/Shout. Reduced End cost slightly.
Sonics should be checked again to see if the new dmg on the powers is sufficiently low that the -res component is eaten up by a lower base dmg. This might be a good reason to mix the secondaries. Say have 5-6 sonics and a few using another secondary. I still like dark for it's cones and status effects.
If 5-6 sonics is enough to cap the -res then a secondary attack with perhaps higher brawl index AoE's would push the DPS more than additional sonics attack. the amount might be trivial though so i guess testing of the newly adjusted sonic attacks are necessary.
As for slots in increase density and IR. I just think that capping movement speed in battle isn't going to give me additional options unless i need to just get away. THe speed boost movement speed is enough for me to do that. IR ends up being solely used to z-axis travel.
I know we will have many slots to spare but i could probably find room for them. be it recharge in Aoe's or secondary effects in blasts (if we leverage another blast type than sonic). IF there is room for extra powers (IE: group fly, Then some slots can go there.) Really it doesn't matter much where the slots go since we got the basics already covered, IF there is no better use for them in other powers by all means .
In terms of the massive kin buff times it doesn't need to be that bad either. When I play my kin on large teams I hit 3-4 people with speed boost at the end of a fight, then at the end of the next fight i hit the rest of the team, there is no need to stop, people are close enough for me to buff them. and the fight rarely last long enough for the buff to run out. IF they do, then it's only a group of 3-4 that drop so i can rebuff just half the team.
If the kins get into that kind of cycle you never have to take more than 10 seconds at the end of a fight and you're off to the next one.
[ QUOTE ]
More notes to consider from a recent patch update on test.
Reduced damage on Sonic Attack/Shriek to match its recharge time. Reduced End cost to match new damage.
Reduced damage on Sonic Attack/Scream to match its recharge time. It was slightly too high.
Reduced damage on Sonic Attack/Howl to match its recharge time. Reduced End cost to match new damage.
Slightly increased the Recharge time on Sonic Attack/Shout. Reduced End cost slightly.
Sonics should be checked again to see if the new dmg on the powers is sufficiently low that the -res component is eaten up by a lower base dmg. This might be a good reason to mix the secondaries. Say have 5-6 sonics and a few using another secondary. I still like dark for it's cones and status effects.
[/ QUOTE ]
The Defender damage (at level 17) didn't seem all that changed. It may only have hit Blasters initially.
Still packs a higher initial punch than Archery (which may be too low damage). On every attack and before any DeBuffs.
It seems like a team of this nature would to well to stay tightly grouped - even if it's just for the bubbles. Perhaps team flight + team teleport, and everyone follows the leader at higher levels? In order to have complete mez protection, you'll need to have every team member carrying a clarify, and an increase density (to cover sleep and knockback respectively) if the team is tightly grouped, then it will be easier to keep those up. This is especially an issue because of the large variety in buff timers: 45 seconds (ID), 2 minutes, 4 minutes, 5 minutes.
Naturally, you'll also want the team tightly bunched if you want to take advantage of the Dispersion Fields, leadership powers, and the kinetics powers in general. (It's tempting to suggest simply having each player set a PBAoE attack on auto, and buff or move full time during combat.)
[ QUOTE ]
I'd still prefer having a ranged AoE and a PBAoE simply due to the added amount of targets you can hit with the target limit rules (16 for Ranged AoE vs 10 for PBAoE/Cone). Thus my preference for Electrical Blast on at least half the team. Ball Lightning has a 60% advantage over Howl before Howl starts debuffing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm... that's a good point. And it's a bit hard to factor into things. I wouldn't give it a 60% advantage though, as you'll only get that in the alpha strike. After that, the Minions are down, and you'll be hitting around 6-8 Bosses and Lieutenants just like the Cones. I'd give it a 30% increase in BI when comparing it to other attacks.
[ QUOTE ]
If you aren't considering that rule I'd say that mass Sonic Blast is good. The Dark cones are iirc very good for damage, but Sonic + Dark will probably fall behind against either setup (Sonic + Elec & pure Sonic).
[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't look like it. First let me dump some data I got last night. Note that this is after the damage reduction reported in the patch notes.
NOTE: For those of you who don't care about the details, skip to the SUMMARY a little ways down.
Sonic Attacks
Howl
Short: Ranged Cone, Medium DMG(Smashing), Foe -Res(All)
BI@10: 1.20 Smashing + 1.20 Energy = 2.40
Resist Debuff: 20% adjusted by level
Duration: 13.7 seconds
Activation Time: 2.5 seconds
Recharge Time: 10 seconds
BI/Act: 0.96
Shockwave
Short: Ranged (Cone), Minor DMG(Smashing/Energy), Foe Knockback
BI@10: 0.95 Smashing + 0.95 Energy = 1.9
Activation Time: 2.4 seconds
Recharge Time: 8 seconds
BI/Act: 0.79
Dark Blast
Tenebrous Tentacles
Short: Ranged (Cone), Moderate DMG(Negative/Smash), Foe Immobilize, -ACC
BI@29: 0.443 Negative + 8 * 0.328 Smashing = 3.067
Activation Time: 1.9 seconds
Recharge Time: 10 seconds
BI/Act: 1.61
Night Fall
Short: Ranged (Cone), Moderate DMG(Negative), Foe -ACC
BI@29: 10 * 0.361 Negative = 3.61
Activation Time: 2.1 seconds
Recharge Time: 10 seconds
BI/Act: 1.72
Torrent
Short: Ranged (Cone), Minor DMG(Smashing), Foe -ACC, Knockback
BI@29: 1.313 Negative
Activation Time: 1.2 seconds
Recharge Time: 15 seconds
BI/Act: 1.09
NOTE: The short description says Smashing, but it does Negative damage.
I'll need to normalize the Brawl Indexes (BIs) to level 1. There's something funny about how they work. I should do that tonight. That will probably show the best mix is about 4 /Dark and 4 /Sonic, but I'm guessing. And I'm only using the first 2 Sonic attacks. You can cycle them non-stop, and adding the third would probably reduce the damage.
The 2 Sonic cones can be cast in 4.9 seconds total. Assuming 3 active Speed Boosts (+150% Recharge Reduction), they can be made to recycle fast enough to chain non-stop with 5 Recharge Reduction SOs in Howl, and 2 greens in Shockwave. With 4 active Speed Boosts, it takes 4 and 1 SOs. Total damage is 4.3 BI, or 0.88 BI/second. (That's pretty bad!) However, the Resistance debuff from Howl can be stacked 3 times (!!!). With 8 Sonics, taking into account Disruption Field, the average debuff during the howls, etc, I get a BI in the first cycle of 12.08, or 2.47 BI/second. The second cycle is 16.84, or 3.44 BI/second, and later ones are only slightly higher.
The 3 Dark cones can be cast in 5.2 seconds total. Assuming 3 active Speed Boosts, these 3 powers can be made to recycle fast enough with 2, 2, and 4 Recharge Reduction SOs in Tenebrous Tentacles, Night Fall, and Torrent respectively. Assuming 4 active Speed Boosts, it only takes 1, 1, and 2 SOs. Total damage is 8.0 BI or 1.54 BI/second. Adjusted for Disruption Field, we get 12.8 BI or 2.46 BI/second.
The non-Kinetics can also just chain Tenebrous Tentacles and Night Fall, the two higher damage attacks. It takes 5 and 6 SOs respectively to chain them even with 4 active Speed Boosts. But they do 6.67 BI in 4 seconds, or 1.67 BI/second. Adjusted for Disruption Field, we get 10.67 BI, or 2.67 BI/second.
Those are the numbers, but the art is in interpreting them. The Sonic numbers are artificially high because they assume everyone is using Sonics. The attacks are low damage, especially Shockwave. Most things aren't going to live long enough to get hit by 2 full Sonic cycles. After the first cycle, the only thing left will be a few bosses. In that case the Sonics can alternate Howl and single target attacks to cap the Resistance debuff faster.
Now lets try some other numbers. If we mix Sonics and Darks (the better Darks), the higher damage Dark attacks get a boost, while the low damage Sonic attacks don't get quite as big a boost. This is just for the alpha strike, which will probably take out everything but bosses and some Lts. Note than the Sonics only look better than the Darks here because they're taking more time. The key thing to note is that adding Sonics gives you diminishing returns. Sure that extra +20% Resistance debuff increases the damage of the entire team, but it also replaces a high damage dealer with a low damage dealer.
8 Dark, 0 Sonic: Resistance 60%/60%: 8*10.68 = 85.44
7 Dark, 1 Sonic: Resistance 70%/80%: 7*11.71 + 1*7.74 = 89.71
6 Dark, 2 Sonic: Resistance 80%/100%: 6*12.74 + 2*8.36 = 93.16
5 Dark, 3 Sonic: Resistance 90%/120%: 5*13.77 + 3*8.98 = 95.79
4 Dark, 4 Sonic: Resistance 100%/140%: 4*14.80 + 4*9.60 = 97.6
3 Dark, 5 Sonic: Resistance 110%/160%: 3*15.82 + 5*10.22 = 98.56
2 Dark, 6 Sonic: Resistance 120%/180%: 2*16.86 + 6*10.84 = 98.76
1 Dark, 7 Sonic: Resistance 130%/200%: 1*17.88 + 7*11.46 = 98.1
0 Dark, 8 Sonic: Resistance: 140%/220%: 8*12.08 = 96.64
SUMMARY:
A little variety is good. Having 1 to 4 /Darks and the rest /Sonics (rather than all /Sonics) results in nice high damage, an Immob, and a new damage type. I think the single target Dark attacks are stronger that the Sonic ones, though I'll have to verify that. I expect 4 /Sonics can cap the Resistance debuff on AVs easily enough, and bosses as well if they live long enough.
As for /Electric, I can't really say. The AoE attacks appear to be between /Dark and /Sonic in BI. The higher max number of targets for Ball Lightning is a plus. The longer recharge on it and Short Circuit are a minus, though probably not a big once since things should die in the alpha strike. I'm not sure whether Voltaic Sentinel gets the buffs on you or not. But at least with Speed Boost you'll be able to cast it often. It might be a good idea to slot Short Circuit for End Drain rather than Recharge Reduction. Transference and Short Circuit combined can drain bosses and keep them drained, possibly even AVs.
I think replacing 2 Darks with Electrics might be a good idea. They can stack Short Circuit. They don't need to line up cones to attack, so they can sit in the middle of mobs. They can be the anchor for the Sonics/ Disruption Field.
Given that the /Electrics will always be sitting in the middle of mobs, they should be the best defended char. In order to avoid having too many different combinations of powersets, I'm going to recommend the following...
2 Kinetic/Electric
2 Kinetic/Dark
2 FF/Sonic
2 Sonic/Sonic
Everyone takes the first 3 Leadership powers. The first two Medicine powers (Aid Other and Stimulant) are recommended. Grant Invisibility from Concealment is recommended.
The Kin/Electrics are the tanking Tank Mages. They get Siphon Speed at 6, while the Kin/Darks get Increase Density at 8.
All Kinetics might want Siphon Speed and Recall Friend to help move the team around at low levels.
Take AoEs when you can get them.
It looks like people can start making their Kins on Live. Or you can wait another day, and the recommendations will all change again! But at least it'll give you something to do while waiting for Update 5.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
I've been following this thread a while without saying anything, but it sounds like a pretty sweet idea. Let me reserve one of the Sonic/Sonic slots for now.
I think this last incarnation is excellent. we would have all the tools necessary to take things out fast and furious. now I really can hardly wait.
I'd really like to try this out, too. I already have a kin/elec on liberty, so I'd like to try something else.
If you're debuffing res enough and syphoning power/fulcrum shifting enough that you can really slot up the secondary effects in your blasts, couldn't enough dark blasts with -acc make FF defenders unnecessary? Or make only 1 FF required?
Maybe this has been said.
[ QUOTE ]
Howl
Short: Ranged Cone, Medium DMG(Smashing), Foe -Res(All)
BI@10: 1.20 Smashing + 1.20 Energy = 2.40
Resist Debuff: 20% adjusted by level
Duration: 13.7 seconds
Activation Time: 2.5 seconds
Recharge Time: 10 seconds
BI/Act: 0.96
NOTE: This is a DoT, and the debuff is applied after the first tic.
[/ QUOTE ]
Scream (single target moderate) is a DoT, Howl is not.
I must admit that it's interesting to see such high damage numbers for Shockwave, I'd have expected it to be about 2/3 what it is due to the Minor rating. Maybe it doesn't scale well later on, though I doubt that is the case.
[ QUOTE ]
If you're debuffing res enough and syphoning power/fulcrum shifting enough that you can really slot up the secondary effects in your blasts, couldn't enough dark blasts with -acc make FF defenders unnecessary? Or make only 1 FF required?
Maybe this has been said.
[/ QUOTE ]
No can do. You have to hit the mobs with AoE dark attacks in order to apply the debuffs to as many as possible as fast as possible. With the new limits on number of mobs hit per attack, that's just not reasonable or safe. At the first sign of attack, the mobs might unload on one person. Against +4 mobs, undebuffed ones will usually hit and can do serious damage.
Just curious though... What would you replace that FF Defender with? Is there another char that can make the team safer, or let them take down mobs faster?
[ QUOTE ]
WingedKagouti: Scream (single target moderate) is a DoT, Howl is not.
I must admit that it's interesting to see such high damage numbers for Shockwave, I'd have expected it to be about 2/3 what it is due to the Minor rating. Maybe it doesn't scale well later on, though I doubt that is the case.
[/ QUOTE ]
Doh! Fixed. I'm surprised that Shockwave takes so long to cast! I'd expect it to be like the other Torrent powers at 1.1 seconds or so.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
General...
Do missions. They have consistent level appropriate mobs.
Do 1 Tech origin person's missions, so they can buy uncommon DOs and SOs from a contact.
Get 1 contact to Friend, then do missions for another character.
Adjust difficulty as needed. Maybe Tenacious or Rugged after DOs and Unyielding or Invincible after SOs.
Do TFs if people want.
We may have multiple teams. Team with people closest to your level.
Always SK if you can. It will help the team move faster. You'll be getting XP really fast anyway, don't be greedy. :-)
Levelling...
Day 1
Level 1-3: Single-target damage. Kins should have Transfusion and Siphon Power at level 2.
Level 4: AoEs for /Elec and /Sonic start taking down packs fast.
Level 6: Sonics/ and FFs/ have all bubbles, and they need to get fully slotted
Level 8: Kin/Electrics move the team using Siphon Speed and Recall Friend
Level 8: Kin/Dark use Increase Density to help the Kin/Electrics tank
Day 2
Level 10: More AoEs for /Elec and /Sonic
Level 12: Speed Boost time! Dispersion Bubble too! Even DOs!
Level 14: Tactics time!
Day 5
Level 22: SOs!
Day 15
Level 32: Fulcrum Shift, Liquify
Day 20
Level 38: BIG NUKES all the time
Day 30
Level 50: CoV Beta
Combat...
Level 1-3: Run up to Siphon Power range, gather, Siphon Power bosses. Then free for all. Just blast away. Maybe assist other people to help take down mobs faster. Transfusion on a boss near the end to top everyone off.
Level 4-7: Kin/Electrics jump in the middle for Short Circuit. Others get real close for cone attacks, and to stay in range of later Siphon Powers or Transfusions.
Level 8-31: Kin/Electrics Siphon Power first to get agro.
Level 32-27: Use Fulcrum Shift instead of Siphon Power.
Level 38-50: Rotate doing 2 BIG NUKES after Fulcrum Shift in every battle.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
I think a better team would be:
sonic/sonic defender
ff/dark defender
ill/sonic controller
earth/ff controller
dark/dark defender
fire/fire tank
warshade
peacebringer
What do you think?
Princess Irulan Lvl 50 AR/Dev Blaster
Natasnmad lvl 50 Dark/Psi Defender
Ms. Parker Lvl 50 Warshade
Ghanima Lvl 27 DW/WP Scrapper
Dark Sepulchral Lvl 50 Sonic/Nrg Blaster
Chanima Lvl 38 Sonic/Dev Blaster
All on Infinity