QXFace

I created the Farticle Accelerator (part 2) last night on Protector and played a little bit with Tanker wannabe and C-Squared. Things already seemd to be going pretty well, although it's kind of hard to tell at low levels, I guess. Here's my plan for my FF/Dark Tank Mage. what do you guys think? My main question is how do we slot our nukes? We don't need Damage, Accuracy or Recharge, so what's left? I guess recharge couldn't hurt really...


Exported from version 1.5A of CoH Planner
http://joechott.com/coh

Archetype: Defender
Primary Powers - Ranged : Force Field
Secondary Powers - Support : Dark Blast

01 : Dark Blast thtdbf(01) thtdbf(37)
01 : Deflection Shield defbuf(01) defbuf(3) defbuf(3) defbuf(5) defbuf(5) defbuf(7)
02 : Gloom thtdbf(02) thtdbf(37)
04 : Moonbeam acc(04) dam(34) dam(34) dam(33) dam(34) dam(36)
06 : Insulation Shield defbuf(06) defbuf(7) defbuf(9) defbuf(9) defbuf(11) defbuf(11)
08 : Aid Other inttim(08) inttim(27) hel(31) hel(43)
10 : Grant Invisibility defbuf(10) defbuf(31) defbuf(33) defbuf(36) defbuf(36) defbuf(37)
12 : Dispersion Bubble defbuf(12) defbuf(13) defbuf(13) defbuf(15) defbuf(15) defbuf(17)
14 : Assault recred(14)
16 : Tactics thtbuf(16) thtbuf(17) thtbuf(19) thtbuf(21) thtbuf(23) thtbuf(23)
18 : Tenebrous Tentacles thtdbf(18) thtdbf(19) thtdbf(25) thtdbf(46)
20 : Night Fall thtdbf(20) thtdbf(21) thtdbf(29)
22 : Recall Friend inttim(22) inttim(43)
24 : Teleport endred(24) endred(25) rng(43)
26 : Stimulant inttim(26) inttim(27) inttim(40)
28 : Stealth defbuf(28) defbuf(29)
30 : Invisibility defbuf(30) defbuf(31)
32 : Personal Force Field defbuf(32) defbuf(33)
35 : Resuscitate recred(35)
38 : Blackstar Empty(38) Empty(39) Empty(39) Empty(39) Empty(40) Empty(40)
41 : Dominate hlddur(41) hlddur(42) hlddur(42) hlddur(42)
44 : Mind over Body damres(44) damres(45) damres(45) damres(45) damres(46) damres(46)
47 : Telekinesis endred(47) endred(48) endred(48) rng(48) rng(50) rng(50)
49 : Force Bubble endred(49) endred(50)

-------------------------------------------

01 : Brawl Empty(01)
01 : Sprint Empty(01)
02 : Rest Empty(02)

This may be old hat for some of you, but it might be helpful to others. I find that when I'm playing a character that constantly casts teammate buffs, it's helpful to do a little binding to speed the process along. For my FFer, I did the following:

Create a new text file and save it as c:\coh\deflection.txt with this text:
numpad0 "local Insulation$$bind_load_file c:\coh\insulation.txt"
numpad1 "team_select 1$$powexec_name deflection shield"
numpad2 "team_select 2$$powexec_name deflection shield"
numpad3 "team_select 3$$powexec_name deflection shield"
numpad4 "team_select 4$$powexec_name deflection shield"
numpad5 "team_select 5$$powexec_name deflection shield"
numpad6 "team_select 6$$powexec_name deflection shield"
numpad7 "team_select 7$$powexec_name deflection shield"
numpad8 "team_select 8$$powexec_name deflection shield"

Save as c:\coh\insulation.txt:
numpad0 "local Deflection$$bind_load_file c:\coh\deflection.txt"
numpad1 "team_select 1$$powexec_name insulation shield"
numpad2 "team_select 2$$powexec_name insulation shield"
numpad3 "team_select 3$$powexec_name insulation shield"
numpad4 "team_select 4$$powexec_name insulation shield"
numpad5 "team_select 5$$powexec_name insulation shield"
numpad6 "team_select 6$$powexec_name insulation shield"
numpad7 "team_select 7$$powexec_name insulation shield"
numpad8 "team_select 8$$powexec_name insulation shield"

In game, type:
\bind_load_file c:\coh\deflection.txt

Now, pressing 1 on the num pad will change your target to the first player on your team. Pressing 1 again will cast deflection shield on teammate 1. Pressing 2 on the numpad will do the same for teammate 2 and so on.
Pressing 0 on the numpad will make your toon say "Insulation", and from then on, he wll be casting Insulation Shield on the player you select. Press 0 again to cycle back to deflection shield.

The funny thing about this setup is that pressing a number won't select the teammate and then activate the power immediately. you will need to press the numpad button once to select the teammate and then again to activate the power.

These binds can easily be modified for kinetics speed boost and increase density, or for the two sonic shields.

I'd really like to try this out, too. I already have a kin/elec on liberty, so I'd like to try something else.

If you're debuffing res enough and syphoning power/fulcrum shifting enough that you can really slot up the secondary effects in your blasts, couldn't enough dark blasts with -acc make FF defenders unnecessary? Or make only 1 FF required?

Maybe this has been said.

The Liberty Server is protected by the Farticle XLR8R!

The Startling Armored Farticle Accelerator

CE would be a lot better if there were -recharge enhancements, in addition to the -speed enhancements. That would, coincidentally, go a long way to bringing Ice Melee up to par, I think.

I fyou could mix and match powers between sets, then making Permafrost ~12% resistance to ice, fire smashing and lethal would be unfair. But in order to get permafrost, you have to be an Ice tank. You have to view the power in the context of the set. I don't think it would necesarilly make Ice tanks overpowered just because they have one power that's better than one specific Inv power.

If GA gives us a base of 22.5%, 6 slotted for defense it gives us 49.5% defense against energy and neg
WI 6 slotted for defense gives us 27.5% defense v energy and neg

That's a total of 77% def.

Add 18.75% from the EA bonus you get from 1 enemy and you're now at 95.75% defense when fighting a single AV.

I'm going to guess that an even level AV's chance to hit is probably greater than 95.75%. A +2 AV certainly has a better chance to hit than that.

If GA is a base of 25%, we get a total of 101.25%. This still seems like it's not enough to get a +2 AV down to the 5% cap.

Also, this is only versus energy and neg. energy damage. We have less defense versus smashing and lethal, which are more common damage types.

If we could consistently get our defenses high enough to bring a +2 AV to the 5% acc cap regardless of the damage type, I think the occasional 1 shot would be acceptable.

For this we would need fire def added to GA and Psi def added to GA and EA. We would also need either higher bases for our armors or a base defense from EA even when hitting no enemies. Say 30% + 12% per enemy.

If an AV can only hit you 1 out of 20 times, what are the odds that the 1 hit he gets will be a 1-shot killer? It would still be possible, but it would be pretty unlikely.

Adding some resistence would more thoroughly ensure that we're not getting 1-shots from AVs, but if the set is going to be kept as purely defense, there still need to be some major changes. Compare Ice Armor to SR and you'll see that the scrapper set gets more complete coverage in his armor since he has no weakness to fire or psi. He can also reach this level of protection without having to rely on many enemies being present. Check out the videos of SR scrappers soloing AVs and you'll see that our defense needs some work. Admittedly, SR's Elude does come with a hefty price: complete end crash every 2 minutes.

Still, we're talking tanks versus scrappers here. We SHOULD have better armor with less drawbacks. They certainly get better damage.

In conclusion: giving Ice Tanks 95% defense versus ALL damage types, at ALL times, under ALL circumstances would not be overpowering. We should be able to come close to this with just FA, WI and GA. Then we can use EA as a boost against acc buffing/def buffing enemies.

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I love Hibernate and I want to keep it as close to what it is now as possible but I agree it needs a change or two. The main problem seems to be this:

1) right now the ice tank is safe and healing but when taunt runs out if you are still hibernating the rest of the team is screwed

2) if you give hibernate an aggro ability then there is no risk for the reward.

So my suggestion is that hibernate should extend out as far as EA and all enemies in this radius should be affected the same way the tank is minus the healing.

So say you're fighting a heard of 20 freaks and they all get lucky shots in at once. You hit hibernate but instead of just you becoming invulnerable they are all incased in ice too and also become invulnerable. Your team will be safe but they also wont be able to earn cheap kills.

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That's basically phase-shifting the mobs. Do you know how much people hates when a Force Field, gravity or Dark Miasma user phase-shifts one or more enemies?

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But it would be a toggle, so you could shut it off at any time.

You're right, a triggered effect would not prevent one-shotting form an AV or Monster. That would still need to be taken care of somehow.

If you don't like the idea of a triggered effect flying accross the room to hit a ranged attacker, make it versus melee attacks only. I actually meant to specify that.

Or better yet, make it a defensive effect that effects YOU rather than the enemy, then it won't matter if the attack was melee or ranged. For example, each time you're hit, your HP regen rate increases. Get a bunch of swarms poking at you through your armor and suddenly you're gaining HP so fast that you don't mind the little hits. You switch from being an SR tanker to a regen tanker. When the swarms die, the regen buffs start to wear off and you're back to normal, but at this point the enemies aren't super-accurate and your defenses can handle them.

What if, when hibernate wore off, you were left with a huge resistance buff for a short time? Like 50% resist all - psi for 15 seconds? When you're about to hit an AV, you hibernate, run at him, absorb the alpha attack, hit EA to increase you defense, then start tanking him as normal. Rely on your defense until hibernate comes back up and repeat the process.

Just tossing out ideas...

We can't have hibernate draw agro if you're indestructible while it's on. That would make it zero risk for you to tank ANYTHING while your team kills it.

Make hibernate generate agro, but have it automatically turn off when your HPs are full. Maybe give it another effect that occurs when it wears off, like a PBAoE slow/hold or damage.


I think what would really help Ice Armor is an effect that hits an enemy when they make a successful strike against you.

The reason I think this would be good is because it gives you more protection in the areas where your armors are weak. Against most enemies, you won't be getting hit, so the effect won't occur.

But when you're facing Swarms or quartzes or higher level AVs/Monsters, you'll get hit more often which will trigger the effect.

It would only make us the slightest bit better against enemies we can already handle, but it would be a big help against enemies that are able to overcome our defenses.

I previously suggested giving permafrost a short duration hold that goes off when you're hit, but you could make it any damage mitigating effect. The important part of this idea is having some sort of (armor/damage debuff/slow/hold/whatever) fire when an enemy hits you. That way, we have a different sort of defense against enemies with acc buff/def debuffs.

It helps plug the holes in our defenses without overpowering the strengths of our armor.

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I've always been of a mind that every tanker should have one, and only one, achilles heel. Invulnerable has psionics, while everybody else seems to have a plethora of different weaknesses.

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Here's what I think of as the optimum tanker's strengths/weaknesses:

Inv: almost indestructible to physcal damage, weak to Psi

Stone: No defensive weakness, but they sacrifice damage and speed for this. In fact, i would be fine with giving Granite Armor res vs psi.

Fire: over-all weaker defensively in every category, but they have increased damage. Plug their Psi-hole and lower their def to all slightly.

Ice: control and the ability to floor foes' accuracy are evened out by the constant threat of unlucky streaks bringing you down suddenly.

If we, as Ice Tanks, could guarantee that our enemies would be at or near the 5% to hit cap for all damage types including psi and fire, we could do well in most situatuions, but still have trouble spots when our luck runs cold. The problem is that even with the EA on the live servers, there are still several situations where we can't achieve this.

Can anyone give us all the stats for EA?

I gnow that the defense per enemy affected is 18.75%
But what about:
Duration
Recharge
End Cost
End Drained
Range(compare this to Chilling Embrace's range, please)

Thanks

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It also won't affect luts/bosses/AVs/Monsters, so it won't be over-powered. Give it a mag 2 hold and it can hit luts. That might still be fair. It will also help your controller/defender teammates stack holds on bosses/AVs/Monsters.

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That's just scary... so you want to "hold" minions who hit us, and have a power that won't help a lick against the AV's and Monsters? Wow, I think my own wife would drop me out of our duo.


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Ice Tanks have trouble with single tough bosses/AVs as well as groups of minions/luts with acc buffs or defense debuffs.

My idea for a low mag hold in permafrost was to help alleviate one of our problem areas: minions with buffs/debuffs.

I agree that something would still need to be done to help us fight AVs.

Ok, this is my idea:

Change permafrost so that is has a 75% chance to apply a ~3 second, mag 1 hold on enemies that make a successful melee attack on you. The hold duration is non-enhanceable.

For the most part, enemies will be missing you, so this won't affect the battle too much. Permafrost will only really come into play against enemies that have high accuracy/autohit or debuff your defense, which is where we have problems right now.

It also won't affect luts/bosses/AVs/Monsters, so it won't be over-powered. Give it a mag 2 hold and it can hit luts. That might still be fair. It will also help your controller/defender teammates stack holds on bosses/AVs/Monsters.

Do this and add psi defense to GA and EA. Let EA drain def from only 5 enemies, but still agro and drain end from all melee baddies and I think we'd have a pretty effective set. AVs would still get the occasional 1-shot, but we would be masters of herding minions/luts. That at least gives us a role, even if it's not as an AV tank.

Add a damage debuff to icicles and I think we'd be able to play in the big leagues with Inv tankers.

Give hibernate an agro aura and make it shut down automatically when your HP is full. That way, you can still be doing your job as a tanker for the team, but you're not able to sit there indefinitely while indestructible.

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I'd love to see something other then resistance, to give us a different flavor. Damage debuff from chilling aura or another power? That'd work, and make teams really want us.

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Seems like that would be great for icicles. And it would make a big improvement to the tankiness of Ice Tankers while giving it even more of a controller/defender feel.

Enervating Field and Darkest Night debuff the enemies damage by around 30-35%, I think. If icicles debuffed its targets by ~15%, I think it would make a huge difference to our tanking ability without stepping on any other AT's toes. Heck, considering that Icicles requires a successfull hit, you could make the debuff even larger. This would also give us a little bit of help against Psi damage.

All it would need to be is enough to keep us from being one shotted. Just leave enough life for us to react when something hits us.

Then leave EA as able to grab defense from only 5 enemies, but make sure it agros and drains end from all in melee range.

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Second, I'm going to have to say I really like the way for the most part this hasn't been a "We're not the exact same as other builds, that's not fair!" thread. In particular, I think there are some great ideas out there for making Ice Better/stand out on its own (for example, what if Ice became the low end king/Scranker Dream set, or adding health bonuses to our most useless power Permafrost.)
I think the solution here would be a bunch of minor tweaks that add up to something nice for Ice tanks. For example ok we can go with the new EA def buff, but now include psi in its def, also keep (for PvM) the end drain/taunt. Allow the -recharge of CE to be affected by slow Enhs, give permafrost a perm HP boost, and reduce the end use of all of our powers. Suddenly Ice/ is far less gimped, still in no way Uber, and most importantly is still a unique set. That's the core reason I think most of us took ice; for a unique set.

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I agree a lot with this.

I think the devs have done the best job with tanks as far as making the indivual sets in an AT each have a different feel.

Stone is the tankiest of the tanks.
Inv is the scrappiest tank.
Fire is the blastiest.
And Ice is the controliest(maybe the defenderiest?).

If we believe that Ice is 44% behind Inv, I would like to see that 44% get added in Ice's strong points: control/defense.

Giving us 44% damage resistance might be the easiest way to bring us up to Inv standards, but I think it is a bit inelegant and really just turns us into Inv tankers.

There have been a bunch of suggestions for fun/neat/original/icy/controllery ways to enhance Ice Armor that don't step on the toes of the big, beefy feel of Inv/Stone. That's the direction that I would like to see Ice tanks improve in.

What is an even level AV's chance to hit?

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What if the defense per from EA scaled per level? Scaled UP per level, I mean.
I'll just throw out 5% per level.

So hitting 5 even level enemies would give you;
5 x 18.75)) = 93.75& defense

Hitting 5 +2 level enemies would give you:
5 x (18.75 + 10) = 143.75 defense.


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No... those are just the numbers from EA. You're forgetting the additional DEF provided by Frozen Armor and Wet Ice. Its okay, I know we're so focused on EA here we're forgetting the other DEF powers we get, but don't worry all of my calculations are taking them into account.

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Ah, yes, you're right.

But what about the idea of having EA's bonus scale up with the relative level of the mobs you hit?
IF we're only allowed to hit 5 enemies per EA, would scaling the absorbed defense make EA worthwhile? Overpowered? Or would it still be pretty bad?

What are the base defenses for the three armors?
I've been assuming:

FA: 22.5 v S/L
WI: 9 v S/L, 12.5 v NRG/ENG
GA: 22.5 v RNG/ENG

But I've heard a lot of different answers so I could be wrong.

What if the defense per from EA scaled per level? Scaled UP per level, I mean.
I'll just throw out 5% per level.

So hitting 5 even level enemies would give you;
5 x 18.75)) = 93.75& defense

Hitting 5 +2 level enemies would give you:
5 x (18.75 + 10) = 143.75 defense.

I don't gnow the exact numbers for enemy accuracy increase per level, but if we could fudge with EA's numbers so that it could always floor enemies acc when it hits 5 enemies, then I think it could still be pretty useful while keeping us from achieving infinity defense. If EA takes you to 5% chance to be hit, add your other armors in and you could be safe against reasonable acc buffs/def debuffs, wouldn't you?

This wouldn't solve the entire problem Ice Tankers have with one-shots, but I think it could keep EA a very good power while removing the threat of getting infinity defense that the devs seem to be afraid of.

One other thing, was this adjustment supposed to balance PvP? I can't imagaine a situation where you could get more than 5 actual human players to stand near you long enough to EA them all. So the live version of EA would be as effective as the test version in PvP. This adjustment to EA really only affects PvE, which Ice Tankers are not dominating anyway.

If this change does go through, EA definitely needs to agro and end drain all the enemies in melee range regardless of whether it's getting def from them.

To add to LeMoiCavalier's point: he was nice enough to let me watch him doing this with my dark defender.

I COULD NOT get heals off fast enough to keep him from dying.

Now that this is an official thread in the training room section, should we refocus on the proposed changes to EA in I4?
Does EA still draw agro from all enemies in range even though it only get def from 5?
EA does not drain end from enemies that it does not get def from. Is this intended, or will is it a bug to be fixed?

If EA will only be draining end from up to five enemies in melee reange, I would rather see this aspect of the power removed entirely while reducing the end cost/recharge time or increasing the duration.

What is an even level AV's chance to hit? Can we bring an AV down to the 5% to-hit cap with only Ice Armor powers? Keep in mind that EA will probably only have one target to charge from.

Let's say that we're allowed to have 2 end redux in all three of our armors, leaving four for defense enhancements. That gives us:

56.7% vs S/L
63% vs NEG/NRG

EA fully slotted with 6 def enhancements gives us 41.25% defense when used against 1 enemy, which gives us:

97.95 vs S/L
104.25 vs NEG/NRG

That doesn't really seem like enough.

I agree that a mix of def and res is better than just def. I also think that just res probably makes a superior Tank than just def. But I think giving Ice Armor res kind of ruins the concept of the set. I think the Ice Tank was meant to be the most controller-y of the tanks. They should protect their team by making the enemies less effective, not just by being bags of meat that the enemies punch. That's why I like CE so much.

I think an Ice Tanker should be able to easily reach 95% defense vs anything up to an even level AV. This includes defense vs fire and psi(although maybe not QUITE 95%) and can be reached even when there is only a single enemy present.
Then give Ice Armor more mob control. Some suggestions:
>Increase the end drain on EA
>Add an PBAoE accuracy debuff to Icicles
>Have permafrost apply a slow effect to mobs that hit you
>Have Hibernate generate agro, but shut off when your HP is full
>I really think Ice Patch should be in the Ice Primary, instead of the secondary. Add this effect to Hoarfrost, maybe? But then what do we do with the secondary?

I put this in the open Ice Tanker forum, but it looks like this thread had replaced it.

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What if EA gave a large, inherent defense boost and a smaller def boost per minion?

Say, activating EA with 0 enemies around gave you +30% def vs all and each enemy gave you and additional 10%?

With the new mob cap in EA, you would get +80% defense in a group, but still +40% against a single boss/AV/monster.
Stacking EA and wearing your other armors could still cap your def against reasonable enemies in groups and give you a chance against single enemies. The numbers would have to be fudged with, of course.

What I would like to see for Ice Tanks is the ability to easily floor any reasonable enemy's chance to hit at 5%. This includes fire and psi. If this were the case, I would say to keep us at 0 resist except to cold and MAYBE fire. Then our weaknesses would be auto hitting powers and the occasional, very infrequent, one-shot.

The fun of Ice Tanks should be gambling. It should be possible on a good day to tanks 100 +10 bosses and not get hit. But on a bad day, 3 lucky hits from an even level boss could kill you.

What about if Hibernate was a toggle power that:
1) Made you 100% invincible
2) Generated a area of agro
3) Drastically increased your HP regen
4) Shut off when your HP was full

This would let you continue doing your job as a tanker, while keeping you from simply turning on hibernate and being indestructable while the enemies all attacked you.

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These are just ideas. I haven't gotten far enough with my Ice Tank to gnow how well all these powers work.

I just started my Ice Tank and many of the posters in this thread gave me a lot of great advice. The Human Cold is still only level 12, so I can't really comment on EA. Already, though, I've been put to shame multiple times by Inv tanks. If I join a pickup team, I have to tell them that they're going to need another tank since I will be dying frequently. That's sad. I was planning on EA really making a big difference in my tankability. Fortunately, I haven't spent too much time on this toon. The problem is that I really like this guy. He has a lot of great, fun powers that should make me super great at protecting my teammates. In theory should be a pretty decent tank. It just doesn't seem to work out that way.


LeMoiCavalier, you mentioned you were on Liberty. That's my home. If you have some spare time, would you mind SKing me so I can get a look at the Ice Tanker's powers?

I've never met one. <- Maybe that's the easiest way to see that Ice Tankers need help before nerfs.