Double wimpy damage is still wimpy damage. Defenders get 2 or more cones or AoEs that they can cycle fast. And they get a BIG NUKE at 38. Controller AoEs tend to be on the low side for damage, and the power sets that get 2 have a big recharge time on the second.
Controllers don't get nice AoEs till the Epic Power Pools. That means I ignore them. They're great when you get them, but you play most of the game without them.
Take Earth for example.
Stone Cages
BI@2: 0.83
Activation Time: 3 seconds
Recharge Time: 8 seconds
BI/Act: 0.27
Even doubled, the BI/Act is WAY lower than Defender AoEs. Assuming the usual +150% Recharge Reduction from SB, and +198% from 6 slotted Enhancements, it recharges in 1.8 seconds. That's a total BI of 0.83 in just under 5 seconds, doubled to 1.66 in ideal circumstances.
Darks do 3.33 BI total in 4 seconds. That's more than twice as much damage as Earth's ideal damage, and it has the same Immob.
Sonics are at the low end, and only do 1.75 BI in 5 seconds. But they also have the +20% Resistance debuff as a secondary effect of their attack, and they can stack it several times.
Controllers also have smaller buffs than Defenders. Their bubbles won't be quite as strong, the heals won't be quite as big, their Leadership won't be quite as effective, etc.
You want to talk pros and cons. Everything above is a con. I can't see a single pro. Give me a pro.
This team is for PvE, not PvP.
Illusion? We don't need PA to take agro, we're tanks! Illusion has no AoEs except a Torrent cast by the Phantasm once in a while. Illusion is terrible for this team.
Any of us will be able to herd, as we'll all have capped Resistance and Defense (you know what I mean for Defense). But there's no need. The entire team runs up to a group, AoEs, and moves on. Defenders do it from level 4 on. Controllers do it from level 41 on. I'd rather be on the Defender team.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
OK, here's the timing analysis. This all assumes 2 FF/Sonics, 2 Sonic/Sonics, 2 Kin/Darks, and 2 Kin/Elecs. Remember, the object is to attack nonstop using AoEs. Kinetics Siphon Power is also used as often as possible to hit the damage cap. First a recap on the base numbers.
Dark Blast
Tenebrous Tentacles, Act 1.9, Recharge 10, BI 3.067
Night Fall, Act 2.1, Recharge 10, BI 3.61
Torrent, Act 1.2, Recharge 15, BI 1.313
Electric
Ball Lightning, Act 1.3, Recharge 16, BI 3.54
Short Circuit, Act 3.2, Recharge 20, BI 3.01
Kinetic
Siphon Power, Act 2.0, Recharge 20
Sonic
Howl, Act 2.5, Recharge 10, BI 2.4
Shockwave, Act 2.4, Recharge 8, BI 1.9
Dark
Dark uses single target attacks till Tenebrous Tentacles at 16, and Night Fall at 20. Then they cycle Siphon Power, Tenebrous Tentacles, and Night Fall. Assuming 3 SBs from the other Kinetics in the team, TT and NF don't need any further Recharge Reduction. Unfortunately, Siphon Power has a much longer Recharge, and it can't be made to recharge fast enough even 6 slotted. As such, Dark alternates Siphon Power and Gloom or Torrent in chains. None of these powers need to be slotted for Recharge. The base slot in the Attacks can be for Damage, just to reach the cap a little sooner. Against hard targets (AVs and Monsters), they should use Gloom and Siphon Power as often as possible, and fill in with the lower damage AoEs.
CHAIN: Siphon Power, TT, NF, Gloom, TT, NF
Electric
Electrics get Ball Lightning and Short Circuit at 4 and 10 respectively. They have significantly longer recharges than Dark, so Siphon Power is a welcome addition to the chain. Electrics will only get 3 SBs from other Kinetics. I think Electrics should lead off with Short Circuit 3 slotted for END Drain, to completely drain the END from most mobs. Taking all of this into consideration, it looks like they need an extra single-target attack in their chain. Even Hasten won't reduce the Recharge on SC enough to skip the single-target attack. I don't have timing data for Charged Bolts or Lightning Bolt, but I'll assume they both have a 2.0 second activation time. Along with the 3 END Drain, Short Circuit needs to be 3 slotted with Recharge Reduction. Siphon Power needs 2 Recharge Reduction SOs, while Ball Lightning and the single-target attack don't need any (just slot for Damage). Against hard targets, use Lightning Bolt more often if you have it as it does more damage.
CHAIN: SC, Siphon Power, BL, single-target
Sonic
Sonics get Howl and Shockwave at 4 and 10 respectively. The FFs and Sonics who have /Sonics don't have to worry about fitting Siphon Power in their chains. They just cast Howl and Shockwave nonstop. They should have 4 SBs from the Kinetics. It takes 4 and 1 Recharge Reduction SOs in Howl and Shockwave respectively to chain them nonstop. Against hard targets, cycle Howl, Scream, and Shout for nice damage and lots of stacked Resistance debuffs.
CHAIN: Howl, Shockwave
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
My post wasn't to put down your current "Tanker Mage" theory. I was asking can what you are doing be done with controllers of various types. Doesnt matter if controllers are inferior to defenders, I was asking if it can be done.
So what you're saying is 8 controllers cant do what you are looking to do?
Playing on Freedom
Speaking from experience with Shortcircuit.
End drain scales with relative mob levels. so to fully drain +2 - +3 mobs (like we will likely ben facing with this superteam once fully assembled) It would be prudent to add a few more slots to Shortcircuit for this purpose. I'd suggest 4-5 end drains with a recharge in the 6th.
Sure, you can put together some /FF, /Sonic, and /Kinetic Controllers together. I'd recommend against Illusion and Mind, as they don't get AoEs till late. You'll probably be safe enough, and you'll put down mobs a lot faster than a solo Controller. I just don't know if you'll cross the SuperTeam threshold.
Any well constructed team can fight even con or better mobs fairly safely and quickly. SuperTeams just run over high level mobs. It's a difference in feel and speed. You'll have defenses, movement, and END Recovery covered, but I'm not sure how well you'll do with damage.
I don't know how much overkill Defender Tank Mages are going to have. I suspect a lot. I think every char in a team of 8 letting off a pair of damage capped AoEe versus Resistance debuffed mobs will melt them real fast.
I wouldn't be surprised if Controllers can do it too, though with less overkill. They just alternate AoE Immobs and single target holds.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
The more I learn about the Electric secondary, the less I like it. The only saving grace is the low level for the AoEs. It doesn't have AoEs that we can cycle nonstop. And I still question the need for an AoE END drain in the first place.
Anyone else have any comments?
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
The end drain is reasonably useful verses powerful lieutenants and bosses. I don't know how necessary it will be with our really high defense and resists. What's the other choice though? More sonic or more dark? That'll probably annoy the people who've already leveled up x/electric defenders. Of course, you can say it's their own fault for starting their characters before I5.
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.) - Whitman
Consistency is the defense of a small mind. - Beldin
Sorry, I don't remember why Radiation Blast wasn't considered.
Send two guys in with Aim (to make sure they hit) and Irradiate slotted for -Def (so everyone else will then hit). They back up and follow with Electron Haze and Neutron Bomb. That might eliminate the need for everyone/anyone having Tactics. As for EH's knockback I've only used it on Test but it didn't seem to horrible. KB wasn't guaranteed; out of 10 or so villains only a couple went flying. (just observation, no serious testing). Then single target attacks to take those few that went flying. Anywho, just a thought.
Unless you have a really good SG, it's hard to consistantly have the exact teammates you need for this.
But there are a few of us that can attest to the over whelming power that an all Defender team can muster. Sonic Defenders are going to make this even more true.
Radiation's two low level AoE attacks have long recharge times, similar to Electrics. You can't cycle them very quickly. And they don't have a reliable secondary effect. You'll only hit 10 (?) mobs with the Defense debuff from Irradiate and Electron Haze. In the New World Order with max number of targets, buffs on your team are better than debuffs on the enemy. Team buffs are always in effect, while enemy debuffs only affect the limited number that you hit.
Every character can only have one Primary and one Secondary. By taking Tactics, we can ensure that we always hit. That means we can skip over Radiation and pick a more useful Secondary. Either one that does more damage (Dark) or one that increases the team damage (Sonic). The AoE damage and recharge is no where near balanced in the Defender secondaries.
The team is going to have to live with Knockback. Mobs are going to be knocked back all the time. Half of the team (all of the /Sonics) are going to be using Shockwave every 5 seconds. The Darks might get Torrent as well. In fact, the constant Knockback might be more effective than the bubbles at protecting us!
I realized when looking over a build today that Transference (level 26 Kinetics power) is an AoE END Drain. I don't recall noticing that before (or maybe I'm just getting old). The mobs up till 26 aren't a very big problem. Using the "one primary and one secondary" idea, I should have skipped over the Electric scondary. I don't want to tell people to scrap their characters, but I'll say that future Kinetics should be Kin/Dark. I made up "Dark TankMage" tonight and levelled her up to 8.4 pretty easily.
[ QUOTE ]
Global chat channel: "Tank Mages"
Supergroup: "Tank Mages" on the Protector server
Required Primary power sets: Kinetic, Sonic, Force Field, Defender only
Recommended Secondaries: 4 Kin/Dark, 2 Sonic/Sonic, 2 FF/Sonic
Note: Kin/Elec will do too
Recommended pools: Leadership, Medicine
Several per team: Concealment (Grant Invis), Teleport
[/ QUOTE ]
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
I have been reading your thread and I really wanted to join but I am afraid that since I am from Europe that I would have a hard time teaming with you guys due to timezone differences.
This is a great idea however. I can't wait to see the videos 
TopDoc:
I've been following your thread with interest, and tonight I rolled up a Kin/Dark on Protector. Hypershade is sitting at level 6 and has joined the Tank Mages channel.
I have a couple of mid-30s heroes (and a few mid-20s heroes) on Protector, so I should be able to funnel some influence to the SG if necessary. I'll look for you the next time I'm on.
Really looking forward to seeing what this type of SG can do.
Hey. I'm up for it. I wouldn't mind making a Sonic/Sonic defender once I5 goes live.
I'll give you guys a /t once it goes live.
I mean, I already played the game normally (Flaming Coal lvl 50 tanker Champion)
I've already pooled into the scrappers controllers and blasters just to get a feel for the differences in damage. I like it already.
But all defender team, that's amazing, I'll admit that I saw the potential. I'll also admit that I was quite frustrated on teams that would accept only a Empath defender, when I knew that post lvl 25 buffing was way more efficient than healing. I saw that a bubbler would migitate damage so well (just one really) that a healer wasn't needed. Yet noobs would prefer to spam emp defenders
We need another healer they'd always say. I'd be thinking kick the emp we have, pick up a kinetics and a bubbler and we'd be doing way better off. Of course as a tanker I already had one heal and was doing quite well on bubbler and kinetics teammate WITHOUT shields running.
I don't really go for a full defender team because I like to get teams as diverse as possible, since a well diverse team really creates a really strong team. IE two defenders, two tankers, two blasters, two scrappers. Way good damage, good defense (with two tankers defense is enough and cappable by the sonic and bubbler easy), Scrappers and tanks now have capped defense and resistance, blasters are pretty well off (matter of fact buff their resist allow their health to drop slowly so they can get in defiance safely, then buff defense, and they have capped damage with the highest base damage on team, huge damage output) Both defenders have tactics. blasters are four slotted for damage with six slots going only into favorite attacks. Tanks can have a few more slots in their attacks. Scraps can get in and out of melee easy. I personally would subsitute one scrap for a kinetics defender to get speed boost in (since speed boost has -spd res, oh holy crap earth thorns aren't a problem).
That always amused me, people who found out that they couldn't find an emp, picked up a kinetics defender, and all of the sudden the very much hated Earth Thorn casters weren't slowing them down. I just wanted to say no duh you freakin bias pig.
However, I could see a full defender team working, but the coordination would be so intense. Nah, I could see it working.
Again, when I5 goes live, I intend to find someone and send a tell... maybe you need to spot some recruiters in atlas or something.
Sorry I haven't been around TopDoc. Had some RL issues to take care of. I'll get up with you guys in the next day or so and do the bankroll I promised.
On the subject of Electric secondary and Transference and End Drain:
Transference does do end drain, but it is single target only, and unless you spend slots on it, it "generally" will not drain them to zero. So you really cannot use it to seriously debuff a mob, even with multiple Kinetics. It does give awesome End Recov though.
Elec Secondary - If nobody else wants this, I'll be thrilled to take it. I have 2 toons with Elec currently, a 30 Storm/Elec, and a 11 Elec/Elec Blaster. Properly slotted, both can reduce any mob group (short of AV's) to only using their most basic attacks. Combine that with some siphon powers and Fulcrum shift, and the mobs just don't do any damage, as they cannot attack with anything that does harm to the team.
If you want, I can demonstrate some night with my Storm/Elec defender.
As I said, I'm back around now. RL has calmed down for the time being. 
[ QUOTE ]
Quickette: I have been reading your thread and I really wanted to join but I am afraid that since I am from Europe that I would have a hard time teaming with you guys due to timezone differences.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you can find some people to play with regularly in your own timezone, feel free to copy my idea. Make your own SG and we can use Coalition Chat if we're on at the same time.
[ QUOTE ]
5th_Player: I don't really go for a full defender team because I like to get teams as diverse as possible, since a well diverse team really creates a really strong team.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not looking to create a really strong team. I'm looking to create a SuperTeam. A ridiculously overpowered SuperTeam. One where every member is chain casting damage capped AoEs at Resistance debuffed mobs. That's at least an order of magnitude more damage than a diverse team. One where every member can tank anything, AVs included. I want to see if we can beat AVs in 10 seconds, rather than the 20 seconds it usually takes Buffer Overrun. All of these things are well beyond the capabilities of even really good diverse teams.
[ QUOTE ]
Again, when I5 goes live, I intend to find someone and send a tell... maybe you need to spot some recruiters in atlas or something.
[/ QUOTE ]
I won't turn anyone down (as long as they have the proper primaries), but I'm not looking to recruit random people off the street. I want people who understand the idea behind the SuperTeam. I want people who have read this thread, and know what powers to pick and how to slot them. I'd rather not have an SG full of people who ask me what power to take or slot every level. There seems to be enough interest that there will be several teams running nightly, and that's all I'm looking for. The easiest way to get in is to join the global chat channel and ask.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
[ QUOTE ]
Elec Secondary - If nobody else wants this, I'll be thrilled to take it. I have 2 toons with Elec currently, a 30 Storm/Elec, and a 11 Elec/Elec Blaster. Properly slotted, both can reduce any mob group (short of AV's) to only using their most basic attacks. Combine that with some siphon powers and Fulcrum shift, and the mobs just don't do any damage, as they cannot attack with anything that does harm to the team.
If you want, I can demonstrate some night with my Storm/Elec defender.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think anyone in this thread is denying how powerful a Elec/ Blaster or /Elec Defender can be. The issue is how much it will benefit a team that is at 75% Dam Res (= capped) and at 100+ Defense (8 6-slotted Maneuvers & 2 6-slotted Dispersion Bubbles + individual bubbles) with the added benefit of having the mob damage debuffed.
The main benefits are that Short Circuit & Ball Lightning both work well from a tanking perspective since you don't need to reposition for cones, SC & BL work well with Sonic Disruption (Target Ally Toggle: PBAoE -Res) and 2xShort Circuit + 4xTransference should help a lot vs Psionic AVs.
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry I haven't been around TopDoc. Had some RL issues to take care of. I'll get up with you guys in the next day or so and do the bankroll I promised.
[/ QUOTE ]
No problem. I'd just like to have some Influence on hand for when I5 goes live. Making mostly Tech heroes and fighting higher level Tech mobs should help a lot, but 12-27 are usually pretty thin times.
[ QUOTE ]
On the subject of Electric secondary and Transference and End Drain:
Transference does do end drain, but it is single target only, and unless you spend slots on it, it "generally" will not drain them to zero. So you really cannot use it to seriously debuff a mob, even with multiple Kinetics. It does give awesome End Recov though.
[/ QUOTE ]
I found that out. The long description says single target, but the short description says Targeted AoE. It turns out the Targeted AoE is for the team END buff, not the drain. I've heard that 3 slotted or so it will drain a mob dry, and we'll have plenty of slots. It'll be nice for recharging after a BIG NUKE. But it's not a complete replacement for Short Circuit.
[ QUOTE ]
Elec Secondary - If nobody else wants this, I'll be thrilled to take it...
[/ QUOTE ]
I expect we'll have plenty, as that's one of the combinations I was recommending earlier. And I've said I won't turn people down based on their secondary. And we've had plenty of people already making their Kins to level up to 14 that are Electric. I'll live with it. In fact, Tanker Wannabe is my level 14 Kin/Elec. But I may end up playing my new Kin/Dark more, Dark TankMage.
But I'm still waiting for someone to give me a good reason to CARE about draining mob END. Squishies care about mobs attacking. Low damage dealers care about mobs healing. Transference can probably handle bosses. Is there any faction that has Minions or Lts that can cause a serious problem for us? The only thing I've ever heard of that comes close is Sappers, and I'd guess that Speed Boost gives us immunity to END drain. Controlling mobs is conventional wisdom that we may be able to simply discard.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
I think winged just above said what i was thinking also. THe radial shapes of the electric Aoe's allow a "tanking" kin to sit in the middle of mobs (assuming the KB will not push them all out.) and do his thing.
Although the more I consider the KB that will be in effect from the sonics and possibly the darks (some of it mitigated by the dark TT), we will act as a steam roller most likely pushing mobs into the next group just as they go down. IT might turn into a never ending curtain of doom. at which point there wouldn't really be a "tanking" kin. we'll be moving together with maybe a designated "puller" for tricky spots. so even if everyone has cones it would work fine.
TopDoc, as far as the value of draining END goes I'll just toss out some questions. This is just off the top of my head, and perhaps these are not issues for the TankMage team.
What about mobs with status effects? Mobs with 0 END cannot use their attacks that have status effects. Will this superteam be buffed enough that status effects will be a non-issue?
Also, when fighting a big group, will they all go down fast enough that everyone should be able to survive regardless of the enemies attacks? I am thinking that having END drain just adds more safety to the team, since mobs with no END can only brawl. The only time I have been on anl all defender team, we were not fighting big groups (10+ mobs), and never had multiple bosses. Those groups we did fight though went down FAST!
Taxibot Grim (Virtue)
Paragon Taxi Service
[ QUOTE ]
Although the more I consider the KB that will be in effect from the sonics and possibly the darks (some of it mitigated by the dark TT), we will act as a steam roller most likely pushing mobs into the next group just as they go down. IT might turn into a never ending curtain of doom...
[/ QUOTE ]
It gives a new definition to the term "Street Sweeping". We should try it some time.
Since I'm recommending mainly Kin/Darks, I thought I'd post a couple builds. These are both to level 24. At level 24, we can do the Respec Trial and shuffle some things around. By then, we should have plenty of people with Tactics. Speed Boost may make Siphon Speed unnecessary.
The first one is a team mover, with both Siphon Speed and Recall Friend. This is the build I'm following for my Dark TankMage char. The second one has Grant Invis and earlier Increase Density. Both have well slotted triple Leadership, Transfusion, and Speed Boost. Both take the AoEs and certain other signature powers as early as possible. There's a lot of overlap between Increase Density and Stimulant, so I hope the FFs and Sonics take Stimulant while the Kinetics take ID.
Archetype: Defender
Primary Powers - Ranged : Kinetics
Secondary Powers - Support : Dark Blast
01 : Dark Blast acc(01) acc(9)
01 : Tranfusion acc(01) hel(3) hel(3) hel(5) hel(5) hel(7)
02 : Gloom acc(02) acc(9)
04 : Siphon Power acc(04) acc(7)
06 : Siphon Speed acc(06)
08 : Recall Friend recred(08)
10 : Maneuvers endred(10) defbuf(11) defbuf(11) defbuf(23) defbuf(23)
12 : Speed Boost endrec(12) endrec(13) endrec(13) endrec(15) endrec(15) endrec(17)
14 : Tactics endred(14) thtbuf(17) thtbuf(19) thtbuf(19) thtbuf(21) thtbuf(21)
16 : Tenebrous Tentacles acc(16)
18 : Inertial Reduction jmp(18)
20 : Night Fall acc(20)
22 : Increase Density damres(22)
24 : Assault endred(24)
ALTERNATE
01 : Dark Blast acc(01)
01 : Tranfusion acc(01) hel(3) hel(3) hel(5) hel(5) hel(7)
02 : Gloom acc(02)
04 : Siphon Power acc(04)
06 : Maneuvers endred(06) defbuf(7) defbuf(9) defbuf(9) defbuf(11) defbuf(11)
08 : Increase Density damres(08)
10 : Grant Invisibility defbuf(10)
12 : Speed Boost endrec(12) endrec(13) endrec(13) endrec(15) endrec(15) endrec(17)
14 : Tactics endred(14) thtbuf(17) thtbuf(19) thtbuf(19) thtbuf(21) thtbuf(21)
16 : Tenebrous Tentacles acc(16) conrng(23)
18 : Inertial Reduction jmp(18)
20 : Night Fall acc(20) conrng(23)
22 : Aid Other hel(22)
24 : Assault endred(24)
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
[ QUOTE ]
What about mobs with status effects? Mobs with 0 END cannot use their attacks that have status effects. Will this superteam be buffed enough that status effects will be a non-issue?
[/ QUOTE ]
As far as I know, yes. We'll have high enough Defense that mobs will have a 5% chance to hit us. That means status effects will rarely land. Anyone can pick up Stimulant at level 6. At level 8, the Kinetics get Increase Density. At level 12 the FFs get Dispersion Bubble. The Sonics get something similar at 26, along with a Clear Mind type of power earlier. The Defense and stacked bubbles are probably all we'll really need.
But just in case, maybe carry around a few Inspirations. After all, you won't need Damage, Accuracy, Defense, or Endurance. You might want to keep some Heals around just in case. Otherwise, stock up on Break Frees (or whatever they are these days).
[ QUOTE ]
Also, when fighting a big group, will they all go down fast enough that everyone should be able to survive regardless of the enemies attacks? I am thinking that having END drain just adds more safety to the team, since mobs with no END can only brawl. The only time I have been on anl all defender team, we were not fighting big groups (10+ mobs), and never had multiple bosses. Those groups we did fight though went down FAST!
[/ QUOTE ]
All 8 of us will be chain casting damage capped AoEs on Resistance debuffed mobs. Yes, the mobs will fall real fast. At low levels we'll open with multiple Siphon Powers on the bosses to debuff their damage. At higher levels we open with multiple Fulcrum Shifts to damage debuff most of the mobs.
We don't need to survive sustained fire, we just need to survive their alpha strike. The Defense and Resistance we get should be more than sufficient.
If that isn't enough, I hear Transfusion heals for 23% of your HP. Fully slotted, that's about 70%. It's an AoE, and can be cast by half the team every few seconds.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
What server is this on. I'd be down to build a toon for this group. Probably a sonic/*
What server is this on? I'd be down to build a toon for this group. Probably a sonic/*
Hmm, I see, Topdoc. Perhaps the only reason for needing END drain is variety? It is the spice of life after all
Transfusion is an awsome heal. My level 24 Kin/Elec can currently heal well over half his health with it, and it is not fully slotted yet.
Taxibot Grim (Virtue)
Paragon Taxi Service
I didn't read the entire thread but has anyone considereed a super team with all controllers? Kinetics and FF are part of their build as well. And with the added double damage after holds the damage potential is amazing. Can you imagine 8 controllers with fireball doing double damage?
Id like to hear pros and cons for this. Would the controller team be able to defeat the defender team in PvP? Not sure what the exact builds would be. Mind seems to do well in I5. Illusion would work great in PvE with PA getting aggro. I can see a Mind/FF herding alot of baddies to a spot where there are 7 other controllers with fireball at the ready. On test with my Ill/Storm I was doing 400 points of damage per target effected (I believe the max is 8 or 10) with fireball. Multiple by 8...they never will get off a shot.
Playing on Freedom