Invulnerability bone to pick with yall:
The elemental resists on unyielding and the passives... is that serious or is there a glitch in the coding???
My lvl 38 inv/em tank barely survived an encounter against even lvl minion freaks (3) with a champion and a boss. two fo teh minions had energy (stunners). and the boss was hitting me for way too much damage( linked to unyielding and my build).
edited Oh and i only survived because i picked up Air Superiority for my tank and kept the boss on his back every chance i got.
Also y nerf Ice tanks at all... they need love, not a stern beating???? How abput adding some +hp similar to Dull pain in all the armors and make the ice tanks HP kings???
/em sends the dev's some breathing apparatus so they can stay in the Halon room.
Anyway, I'm just curious why it was a Def and resist drop across the board? It's been shown (at least to us) that someone running with 90% resists getting hit every time is less safe than someone with minor to no resists being hit 5% of the time in most instances, (alpha's excluded).
That coupled with the massive drop in elemental protection has virtually gutted inv tanks who now take 90% fire/cold/energy/negative damage instead of even 50%. And they're hist just about every time by those attacks because they've got no defense against them.
Hopefully your dataining will reveal this to you and you can adjust accordingly. I like the direction, just not the methods.
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
Invuln getting toned down is acceptable to many of us. The survival gap between us and the 'squishier' ATs was too broad and made some of the game far too deadly for them. However dropping these:
Uy:20% res all non-psi
R/El:20% res fire/cold
R/En:20% res energy/negative energy
To this:
Uy:5% res all non-psi
R/El:7.5% res fire/cold/toxic
R/En:7.5% res energy/negative energy
While also increasing the def debuff of Uy from 5% to roughly 12.5% is too much. Our non-S/L resists are far too low, and it takes far too many slots (15 approx) to cap S/L now. Uy has gone from one of the lynchpins of the Invuln set to a liability. Many reliable testers have shown that it is actually safer to turn Uy off and run Invinc+TI and possibly Tough as well, and eat break frees instead of using a primary power for it's main purpose! I do feel that the test RPD and TI are at acceptable lower levels of resistance.
I suggest the following changes. These will lower invuln somewhat, but not cripple our non-S/L resists.
Uy:15% res all non-psi. Def debuff 7.5%
R/El: 15% res to fire/cold/toxic
R/En:15% res to energy/negative energy
In my tests I could solo S/L mobs with no issues, but non-S/L mobs were very nasty. These resists need to be higher (my numbers put non-S/L (barring psi of course) to 66% with fully slotted white SOs) than the current test Invuln. I believe my numbers are reasonable and will still make us feel like Tankers.
I cannot understand why a drastic reduction in the Invulnerable Tank's resistances were required. A 50%-75% percent reduction in our resistances is seems more a cruel joke then an attempt to rebalance the AT. Come on the name of the AT in Invulnerable!!! Right now its not worth playing an Invulnerable Tanker. Yes we do receive some defensive buffs, but Invincibility is only useful in melee and tough hides defensive bonus is barely discernible. Both are nearly nullified by Unyielding's defensive debuff now. Damage resistance is far more valuable to an Invulnerable Tanker then defense is. Right now a Fire tank can easily out tank us, I know this for a fact, Ive been on test with my Fire Tank and my Invulnerable Tank, the difference is very noticeable. I can accept a 25% decrease in our resistances along with a 25% reduction in endurance cost, but I cannot accept a 50%-75% reduction. If these changes go live, I guarantee it will be the death of the Invulnerable Tanker. I know if changes go live Im going to re-roll my Invul as a Fire Tank.
Im not a qa tester thats your job. All i can say that the way things are with tankers and my main is a tanker its not fun the way it is on test dieing every few secs is not fun.
Why change the whole game after a year down the line
IE its a fun game now you change it is not fun for me and ill not be here any longer.
I am not a tanker, but I team with them regularly on large (8-person) teams.
Taunt being capped at 5 villains will mean multiple team wipes in large groups. It needs to be tripled.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
Reduced Invulnerability/Temporary Invulnerability Damage resistance bonus.
# Reduced Invulnerability/Resist Physical Damage resistance bonus.
# Reduced Invulnerability/Resist Elements Damage resistance bonus. Added resistance to Toxic.
# Reduced Invulnerability/Resist Energies Damage resistance bonus.
# Reduced Invulnerability/Unyielding Damage resistance bonus. Increased its Defense debuff.
# Reduced Invulnerability/Invincibility Defense and Accuracy bonus. Increased its max number of affected targets to 14.
# Reduced Invulnerability/Tough Hide Defense bonus.
Please tell me after 1000+ hours of playing my Tank one way this is now the "balanced" way of playing.
Thats all I ask
Cuca 50th Inv/axe over 1000+ hours played
Unyielding is THE backbreaker for Invulnerability now. It's 5% damage resistance six slotted combines with six slotted passives for 29% resistance - FIFTEEN ADDED SLOTS used for less than ONE THIRD of incoming damage reduced. And the situation is even worse than that, because the absurd level of defense reduction now attached to Unyielding effectively cancels out the Invincibility defense buff unless you're in a VERY large crowd - the kind we're not supposed to seek out anymore.
Defender and Blaster app charged armor seems to be giving better energy resistance than invuln tankers can get now. Similar situations with Shadow Fall, Steamy Mist, and app dark armor.
With the non- Smash Lethal resists at this level and the extreme Unyielding defense debuff, Invuln tankers must now cherry pick smashing/lethal enemies, and avoid large teams at all costs. It is no longer viable to play one at the upper levels - too much non S/L damage, and the NEED For mez protection at those levels requires Unyielding, which then kills the defense from Invincibility that is also needed.
Upper level invuln tanks are now broken. They cannot function with the current Unyielding build. I would genuinely like to think the 5% is a mistake. THings MIGHT be better at 15%. I am absolutely certain I will not attempt to play my invuln tankers any more if this version goes live.
Statesman and Crew,
I have spent a fair amount of time over on the Test server since Issue 5 testing began. Mostly with my Invuln/Ice Melee Tanker. I will be the first to say that I have long felt that Invuln Tanks were seriously overpowered. My concern is that the changes as they appear on test seem to go somewhat overboard. My tank is still in pretty good shape against smash/lethal based bad guys, but that's about it. Put me up against more then just a few of anything else and I have a heart to heart with the earthworms.
But the real concern is, after quite a bit of experiementation I have discovered that I am far better off by simply not taking many of my primary powers (Resist Physical Damage, Resist Elements, Resist Energy) and using pool powers like Tough and Weave. Previously, my tank made use of all of her primary powers except Unstoppable (never like the Unstoppable crash), now it seems I will have to respec many of my primaries out to remain a viable member of a team.
I would like to request that you guys take a hard look at the changes to Unyielding. Player testing seems to put Unyielding at an extremely reduced effectiveness with what seems to be a very nasty Defense Debuff. Many very experienced players feel that Unyielding is no longer worth taking either. Many feel that acrobatics and a few break frees in the tray instead of Unyielding will be better. I'm not too that point myself yet, but that is mostly because I'll apparently be running several toggles and it takes awhile to get through all the animations for TI, Inv, Tough, and Weave. So, for now I'm sticking with Unyielding and trusting my other Defense powers to hopefully offset the unyielding de-buff.
I would much rather be faced with new lower caps on resistance perhaps, even coupled with some resistance reductions also. I ask that you consider lowering the caps a bit and give us some of our Elements and Energies etc. Or even better, maybe reduce the resistances and defense for elements and energies, but not so much.
Thank you
Rachel Riley
If these numbers are correct as they are right now, I would like to make one request of Statesman, who plays an INV/SS tanker.
Statesman. Please put a team together of your friends and go play your tanker on test. Go to Paragon Island and face off some AVs for awhile. Or maybe exemp down and go to Croatoa.
If you can honestly tell me that you can enjoy playing Statesman and be as useful to your team as you were before, then I'll quit whining. If not, can you rework these numbers again?
Virtue:
Lady Eden - Empathy/Psi Defender
Seymour Fists - Invul/SS Tanker
Mojave Green - DM/Regen Stalker
Tanker Taunt power should, as an AoE, be allowed to hit up to 16 enemies. Only being able to hit five really guts their aggro management abilities.
Invuln nerfs went too far. Invuln tanks now get devoured by anything that isnt smash lethal, and even the smash/lethal hurts.
I fully agree with the concept of breaking herding, but this was a kind of ham handed approach to it. Worse, many of the worst herding offenders (fire tanks) can still easily reach the smash/lethal caps and herd (albeit slightly slower thanks to the max hits) because 90% of them already have Tough and will just drop extra slots into it to cap. Why not roll back most of the resist changes across the board by about 75%, then drop the resist cap down to 85/80/75? Or heck, even 80/75/70.
Also: You *nerfed* ice tanks? *boggle* Had you left them alone then nerfed everyone else, they would be 'balanced' in comparison. But you nerfed one of the weaker sets so its still... one of the weaker sets.
Sometimes the enemy is so swift and the path so treacherous that you can run no further.
It is then that you must turn and resolve to fight
and in all likelihood die horribly
but you never know when you are going to get lucky, so go for it!
- Captain Fwiffo
[ QUOTE ]
While also increasing the def debuff of Uy from 5% to roughly 12.5% is too much. Our non-S/L resists are far too low, and it takes far too many slots (15 approx) to cap S/L now. Uy has gone from one of the lynchpins of the Invuln set to a liability.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree completely with this. The changes to Inv while perhaps not completely uncalled for, are way to much.
A inv tanker should be able to get their non-S/L resists up much higher then they currently can, they are as I understad it maxed out between 25-30%. That's far to low to be an effective tank.
I have devoted a tremendous amount of time and effort to this game and to helping the community of this game.
This is by far the most extreme thing I have seen happen and I think it is sad.
The changes to taunt, defense, and aoe's will take a tremendous amount of excitement out of this game and make for a not-so-superhero feel.
Please reconsider and be a little more creative in how you want to fix this game. There are other ways that don't involve changing the characters, powers, and game-feel people have spent so much time with so completely.
I feel the developer's vision is in the right place, I also feel the actions they have taken are unimaginative and lackluster.
The Legion of Freedom
My biggest concern as far as the changes is that by balancing everything to how much Def and Res a fully-tricked-out 6-slot SO++ toon can get, it makes it so you need a calculator to tell if many of the unslotted powers are making any difference at all. One of the real strenghts of CoH, IMO, is that for the low-level characters every two levels you get a new super power and feel that much more super. I don't need to be tearing up 20 guys to feel super (or when I get in that mood, I go annihilate greys), but I DO want each power to make a noticable difference. One of the things I hated about WoW was how picking new skills was a non-event; I couldn't tell the difference with another +2% crit chance when backstabbing. With the changes on test all of the Invulnerability passives for Tankers, and almost all of the Inv powers for Scrappers fall into the "is this thing on?" range. At low levels (which is where I spend almost all of my time--I've got literally dozens of chars, but only a handful of 20-somethings, and only one 33) I really hate the idea that so many powers will have invisible effects until you hit ten or fifteen levels later and can fully slot them with SOs. If having more than 20% res to energy or fire is really unbalancing (don't see how that could be, since DA and Fire Tanks can easily exceed it, but suppose it were true and the sets that exceed it are going to get reduced too), then I would FAR rather have it be 20% from the git-go and unenhanceable. Even then, it might not be worth taking, but at least the player who did take it would be able to tell the power was doing something.
The max defenses aside from smashing/lethal (including SO six-xlotting them) should be at least 65-75% for a tank.
Any less and they won't be able to grab the agro from more fragile teammates.
[ QUOTE ]
I have devoted a tremendous amount of time and effort to this game and to helping the community of this game.
This is by far the most extreme thing I have seen happen and I think it is sad.
The changes to taunt, defense, and aoe's will take a tremendous amount of excitement out of this game and make for a not-so-superhero feel.
Please reconsider and be a little more creative in how you want to fix this game. There are other ways that don't involve changing the characters, powers, and game-feel people have spent so much time with so completely.
I feel the developer's vision is in the right place, I also feel the actions they have taken are unimaginative and lackluster.
[/ QUOTE ]
/signed.
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson
My question is regarding PvP and PvP only. There isnt a global defense thread so i'll post it here anyways.
With all the defense reductions, are you going to reduce base acc and especially reduce To-Hit buff from all the powers in the arena to create an even playing field between acc\def ?
After these changes, my Dark Armor scrapper now has more survivability and can take on larger groups than my invulnerability tank. I believe this says everything about the Invulnerability changes that needs to be said.
I can't really comment on the other powersets. But I need to ask you, the developers, this: are you entirely unaware that it is possible for tank attacks to hit more than one enemy when they are "stacked" on top of one another in the same location? Because it seems to me that if you were to alter the mob code so that enemies no longer did this, herding would become substantially more difficult and many of these changes (not to mention the AOE changes for blasters) would be unneccessary. I have been expecting the "stacking" bug to be fixed for several months now-- why hasn't it?
I'm far less qualified to comment on tanking than a lot of other people here; I have exactly one tank character who's made it past the lowbie levels ... an Inv/Stone who just made 34. So realistically, my opinion doesn't count for a lot; for example, subjective statements like "this destroys any motivation I had to play an Inv into the high levels."
Then there's simple observations, like the fact that I see a lot more Fire tanks successfully herding Dreck (ugh) than Invs. Or the fact that overall, Stone offers a far more complete resistance package once you get Granite + Rooted + Minerals. Sure, you're slow and it helps to have a friendly Kinetic around ... but it's nothing a few slots in Swift doesn't fix. Getting everything you need from a small set of powers makes it easy to spare those slots.
I dunno, maybe I missed the entire spirit and point of Invulnerability? Even without the absurd target-number limits, I don't see how Invs can be expected to do their jobs with such horrible numbers on Elements, Energies, Unyielding, and even Tough Hide. I don't understand how the resists for Inv can sensibly be less than Fire and Stone. It doesn't seem to make sense logically or numerically, to say nothing of fun. Speaking as an experienced player but a relative newcomer to tanking, how are these changes rational? You don't want us to fight big groups anymore, but without big groups Invince will barely compensate for the penalty from Unyielding. Huh?
Are we supposed to drag along a friendly Sonic everywhere, now? Is this a fiendish plan to integrate the new AT flavors by making Invulnerability heavily reliant on them?
-FCM
Please try MA arc ID 351455, "Shard Stories: Scavenger's Hunt." Originally created for the Dr. Aeon contest, it explores the wild potential of one of the City's most concept-rich but content-poor settings: the Shadow Shard.
Changes -
Maximum number of targets that can be affected by Taunts (including Tanker inherent Taunt - 'PunchVoke') is set to 5.
This will limit the amount of 'herding' done by players to a more reasonable and realistic level.
Reduced all Archetypes base ability with Damage Resistance and Defense powers.
# Reduced Ice Armor/Frozen Armor Defense Bonus.
# Reduced Ice Armor/Wet Ice Defense Bonus.
# Reduced Ice Armor/Glacial Armor Defense Bonus.
# Reduced Ice Armor/Energy Absorption Defense Bonus and set its max number of affected targets to 14. Added an Endurance Buff to the Caster for each affected target.
# Reduced Invulnerability/Temporary Invulnerability Damage resistance bonus.
# Reduced Invulnerability/Resist Physical Damage resistance bonus.
# Reduced Invulnerability/Resist Elements Damage resistance bonus. Added resistance to Toxic.
# Reduced Invulnerability/Resist Energies Damage resistance bonus.
# Reduced Invulnerability/Unyielding Damage resistance bonus. Increased its Defense debuff.
# Reduced Invulnerability/Invincibility Defense and Accuracy bonus. Increased its max number of affected targets to 14.
# Reduced Invulnerability/Tough Hide Defense bonus.
# Reduced Stone Armor/Rock Armor Defense Bonus.
# Reduced Stone Armor/Brimstone Armor Damage Resistance.
# Reduced Stone Armor/Crystal Armor Defense Bonus.
# Reduced Stone Armor/Mineral Armor Defense Bonus.
This thread is for you to provide feedback to the Devs on the above issues. You are allowed to post ONCE in this thread. Make it count! If you post more than one time - the extra posts will be removed.
If a dev responds this count will be reset.