Skills In Issue 4 = More Batman Elements?

This game at its heart is a PvE game, I just dont see PvP as viable.

I mean, maybe Group vs group might be something, but I look at my Mind/Emp Controller and see a hero that will be completely and totally left out of the PvP game.

That disappoints me

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This game at its heart is a PvE game, I just dont see PvP as viable.


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Wrong....CoV has been known about since CoH's release. It completes the whole vision of the game.

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Skills is in Issue 5...

Issue 4 revolves around the Arenas (now under construction)....

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Frankly, this smacks of SOE's decision to delay their promised Star Wars: Galaxies combat balance publish because they pulled most of their developers to work on the Jump To Lightspeed add-on...which was a pay-expansion. Any of this sounding familiar?

I've held this dev team in high regard..but things are starting to pile up. Color me jaded. Plus I haven't had my morning coffee yet.

I look forward to ANY update that is put out for CoH. I still thoroughly enjoy my toons, even my lvl 50 toon. I love my kheldian, love the storyplay, and I'm very much looking forward to PvP play!

I say, as far as skills go, take as much time as you need!! I'd rather have it done right, then have something slapped together and released just because the teeming masses whine and complain and can't show even the slightest hinting of patience in the devs

They have their timeline for what they want to do. We aren't privy to it and that's AOK with me. If you don't like it, go play WoW.

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Skills is in Issue 5...

Issue 4 revolves around the Arenas (now under construction)....

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Frankly, this smacks of SOE's decision to delay their promised Star Wars: Galaxies combat balance publish because they pulled most of their developers to work on the Jump To Lightspeed add-on...which was a pay-expansion. Any of this sounding familiar?

I've held this dev team in high regard..but things are starting to pile up. Color me jaded. Plus I haven't had my morning coffee yet.

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The devs have my complete confidence, They haven't disapointed me yet, and I cant wait to see what they have in store. As for having to buy an expansion.......I think CoV is going to be the only one the rest have been free and I see know reason for them to change it. But even if they do thats Ncsoft and not the devs making the decision.

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Skills is in Issue 5...
Issue 4 revolves around the Arenas (now under construction)....

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Disappointing. It's starting to feel like the 'ole dangling carrot tactic.

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Skills is in Issue 5...

Issue 4 revolves around the Arenas (now under construction)....


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I must admit to being extremely disappointed by that.

Fortunately I was part of a successful Hamidon raid last night, which helped soften the blow slightly. Having to deal with the latest incarnation of the blob did provide a welcome tactical challenge.

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They have their timeline for what they want to do. We aren't privy to it and that's AOK with me. If you don't like it, go play WoW.

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Easier said than done - I've had WoW on backorder for about a month. Hopefully when it finally arrives it will keep me entertained until the CoH skills system comes out.

I have no interest in PvP i guess Issue 4 is a wash... I thought City of Villians was for PvP.

Unless Bows show up in Issue 4...Methinks I'll be taking a break from CoH.

PvP can be fun but it's not really a selling point for me.

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Skills is in Issue 5...

Issue 4 revolves around the Arenas (now under construction)....

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Ok... your the boss and all... but i though Skills were originally part of update 3... and that PvP wasn't even a major focuse of this game until later, like alittle before CoV came out... What happened to that plan? Why did PvP become so very importent to you all? Esspeically since a fairly large around of your player base isn't looking forward to it at all... heck, in light of how things have been changing lately, one could make the arugument that all the recent class changes that have been made, are more then likely an eairly attemtp at PvP class balancing. Something, i seem to recall, you said you'd not do. I know for one, i HATED, with a passion, having my PvE abbilitys nerfed cause they were deemed to UBER for PvP... a concern people rasied when PvP was mention as being added to COH. A concern i THOUGH i read you said wouldn't effect us much, because you wouldn't nerf a power in PvE because it was to good in PvP...

But wasn't it like a week or two ago, you stated that you would infact be balancing powers for PvP, and it would effect PvE, bacause you didn't want to confuse new players with two different sets of rules that there powers work by? why the change in stance? Or did i miss understand what you ment in the begning?

I remember when you were ALL excited about this your "super secret out of combat content"... I mean it was the talk of the time, the one thing everyone was eagirly antasipiting... and now, it's been months since i've hard about it, only to discover it's been delayed 6 months more? (maybe less, but at the rate you updates come out, 6 months might be a consirvite estamite. Not that taking your time is a bad thing, it's not, it's just... well, never mind.)

So, again, an honest question, why did you change gears and start focuing on PvP all of a sudden? You finding the skills harder to implement then you thought, or do you think PvP will keep the lvl 50's who are getting board with no high end content, yet have more then likely played through the low levels so many times it's mind numbling at this point, around longer, beating each others brains in? Eh, it could work i guess. I'm not into PvP myself, so tell me, what do I have to look forward to in issue 4? Or will it be 4 - 6 months before i get to be excited about and update again?

KingSnake.

I'll sell you my copy of WoW very cheap <L>. You just pay shipping. Only been installed once!

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None of the previous issues have offered one big new feature, why would we think that would be the case with I4?

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Let me correct myself then. I hope that Arenas aren't the only thing in Issue 4 that matters.

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Echo that.

Here's how I see why they are starting PVP early.

It's most likely to gather data on how other Archetype's play against one another and which powers seem to command the arena over the other ones.

Also Skills seems to be a MAJOR overhaul, it's not going to be like you talk to a contact and poof you suddenly have skills. It seems that they are going the whole 9 yards to make the skills system a really big portion of the game. It takes a while to generate content like that which is why I could see it being pushed to issue 5.

In the meantime issue 4 will be the buffer between skills, it's all a matter of priority and how long it takes to get certain things done.

Ok

Can you like, I don't know, skip the arena for issue 5 and get the skills for issue 4.

I don't know but for me issue 3 seemed a lot less exciting than issue 2. Having SSOCS delayed yet again makes me lose more faith. Oh well....

Here are my thoughts on skills being pushed back and arena in issue 4.

First I would like to say that I really the people who dis-pvp or non -combat(crafting) activites. Both fill a very important, very different nitch.
Non combat activities promote social interaction and and different style of game play this help keep players interested in the game "over the long haul," which is to say along the journey to lvl 50.

PvP promotes a different social interaction that appeal to what i would say is the other core player demographic. PvP is ultimatly about end game content however, you mostly engage in PvP when "your ready" and to "do stuff " at the end game.

So non-combat is most important for player interest from 1-49 and PvP is virtually critical for player interest post 50. It is important to note that while lvls 1-49 are a long journey and it is important to keep people engaged during it anyone could/should have a level 50 after six months of game play and releveling, especially through the hell levels(36+), is... lets says discouraging. So both must be weighed in the balance.

Now there are some critical issues to factor in.[*]The first is that the further and further back SSOCS gets pushed the great the expectations will be. Had SSOCS gone live in issue 2-3 most peopel would have been expecting the somewhat trival system this was orgianlly billed as. That is to say something optional to do other than combat to level up and provide a few neat bonus. Now however even I am hoping for something big, and while I temper myself with 1 year of broken dreams in SWG I think most people are now putting big bank on the vaunted SSOCS. Frankly I can't blame them. The game clearly needs something to filling the "crafting nitch" though I completely agree that its should fro the most part not be crafting (barring a gadgeteer AT that makes stuff only for himself.) As the months pass the driving need for something to add "asymmetric content," what I am saying is something kinda like othello the board game, simple rules but, deep and many ways to play, perhaps what I am getting at is many variables.[*]Next to consider is apathy or discontent. I have great patients but SWG broke me with the combat balance it was promised october after launch when summer rolled around and it became that "After JTL" was the words of the day I was done. Open communication and dialgoue of what people would like to see and what is and is not possible and what the Devs are trying to achive helps purchase time. However the coin used is goodwill and hope and should thus be spent carefully.

About PvP[*] I am looking forward to the arena sort of. It is not a deep buringing passion but as long as their is no negatives to playing it will be amusing. That unfortunatly is also the problem with the arena it will be AMUSING. Not great, not a major addition not really even engaging. Why do I say this? Because... [*] PvP is going to be a mess[period]. This will fundamentally undermine the long term enjoyment value of an arena. For why I say PvP is going to be a mess see below.[*] An arena will also be too limited. Solo vs Solo, Team vs Team, capture the flag maybe. There are only so many variations possible in a confined space. Coupled with the PvP problems I think this will kill the enjoyment of the arena fast.

It is perhaps not pleasant to say but with each passing issue more and more is needed out of the issues.
The game was launched(rightly) without either PvP or out of combat activities. Which however puts the weight of entertainment on the expansion issues, the inherent content and the players. After 9 months inherent content has worn pretty thin. With that being the case then each issue stands or falls on its additions and less and less on what surrounds them.
Let me take issue three as an example. Stiga island is very cool and well built zone(which I will NOT say for the hollows) BUT after the stiga specfic mission, which you have to play through all the other lv 20-30 missions AGAIN to get to, its the same ole door mission, in the same ole buildings with the same ole objectives. Khelds are the same thing, a new AT admittedly harder and therefor more rewarding to play that is going through all the same things as before.

Perhaps what is really needed is new mission objectives and new ways to reach those objectives in new structures. Which is what I and probably most other people are hoping for form the SSOCS. Thus I hope the Devs can see why so much is now riding on the SSOCS and what player maybe looking for from it.

Why do I say PvP is going to be an utter mess.[*] First and foremost the absolute determining factor of damage, which is foolish IMO, in determining AT powers. What this has resulted in is a massive mess of ATs that can do damage but forgo tricks, and ATs that are tricks but forgo damage. As near as I can tell the absolute kings of PvP will be the ATs that blur/break the rule. Namely controllers and scrapppers. Both of which have alot of damage and alot of tricks.[*] The there will be the (some what needed) nerf calls from the people who built their pinnacle PvP character, like I am willing to bet the guy who posted in this thread, and get utterly decimated by the real PvP classes. I seriously doubt anything will be able to withstand a proper built controller, some yahoo is going to screech that they have integration, well let me tell then (again), controllers have access to defender primaries and extreme damage.[*]There will also be the great battle between to trick ATs. I am sure that my predestine match between my Rad defender and an invul tanker is going to be agonizingly long and tedious.[*] Finally many weak builds are going to become un justly weaker. My MA/SR scrapper is not a great character but he is fun, however the utter suck he will be in PvP is one more kick in the teeth that is nt needed.

Ultimatly I feel PvP will more akin to rock, paper, scissors then any clever or daring battle fought between players.
Rock = tanker
Paper = scrappers, blasters
Scissors = defenders
Dynamite= controllers

Of course these are important issue that need to be solved before CoV but I personally am not sure I can hold out another 5 months for some longer term engaging content.

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Playing against another player is just about always different. No-one buys beat em ups to play them on their own, at least not for any great length of time, the online scene is designed to play with and against other people. otherwise it'd be an offline game with downloadable patches for content updates. I try and try not to come back to the whole "it's an online multiplayer game" arguement but every time i try and offer up something to the solo and storyline based community, it just seems to feel like it's in a wasted genre.

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I have been playing these game largely (90% of my in-game time) solo since 1999. Seems a fair length of time to me. But I do see the other side of the argument. Shame more people can't or won't see the solo side of the argument too. Kinda petty in a live and let live way really. At least in my opinion.

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Like we should create an entirely different genre for that type of game. Because everytime a new MMO comes out, the reaction is the same, people want more solo content, people want more pvp content etc etc. And in all fairness it's just about business suicide to create a game entirely devoted to one of these genres.

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Actually, in a pay-for MMO model the only real suicide is not listening to you players. You know, the people with the money? And in a related topic, I'd like to point out that I am so far seeing more 'disappointed' posts than those happy that Arena's are coming out before the SSOCS. I realise the boards don't speak for all players but the ratio seems really high. In short, I'm not saying; I'm just saying is all.

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Odd, the first time I recall hearing about CoV I recall hearing mention of putting out the areanas beforehand to allow limited PVP.

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The first time I recall hearing about Arenas (specifically by name even) and PvP in COH was at E3...2002. Granted, I don't work for Cryptic. I don't know if that feature was ever more than a design document. Just saying again.

If the above sounds bitter I assure you, that's not the spirit in which it was written. But I think it's clear that I am a bit disappointed as well to see the SSOCS bumped for inconsequential PvP but like I said, I don't work for Cryptic. I'm sure there are very good reasons for Arenas to take precedence over the SSOCS besides some kind of beta test for COV.

Right?

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Let me take issue three as an example. Stiga island is very cool and well built zone(which I will NOT say for the hollows) BUT after the stiga specfic mission, which you have to play through all the other lv 20-30 missions AGAIN to get to, its the same ole door mission, in the same ole buildings with the same ole objectives.

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Uh, have you actually played on Striga or are you just saying that having passed it and only looked at Striga?

Striga introduced several variants of the Ship layout.
Striga introduced a new cavern layout.
Striga introduced a new mob generator.

So far that is what I have found and I'm not done with Striga yet. Furthermore you don't have to play through all the 20-30 missions to get to it. You need to get your level 20 contacts, find the one that sends you to your first Striga contact and that's it. Since then I have been doing nothing but Striga missions. 20-24, pure Striga, no other missions. Only exception was a Sister Psyche Task Force (24-25) because I had accumulated enough debt to prevent me from being 25 when I needed to start up my third contact.

As an example of what is wrong with I3 Striga is the worst example to take.

A better example would be the Global Chat which does not in any way address the problem of multi-SG chat in a simple to use and automatic way. We asked for and were promised one thing and got something, while technically superior, is far harder to use and not what we expected, were promised or wanted.

Regardless, add me to the chorus of disappointed messages. SSOCS pushed back again in favor of PvP? Please. PvP isn't end game. PvP is nothing more than one large "mine's bigger" contest. I have never, never seen PvP in a western MMORPG do well. If anyone thinks PvP is some godsend to western MMORPGs and worthy of anything other than a nice way to filter out the jerks of the game I'll ask this simple question:

Why is Shadowbane near dead instead of the top selling western MMORPG?

Arenas. *spiit* Take the development time for that and put it into a decent multi-SG chat, get the SSOCS out and push Arena back to "never". CoH will be a far better game for it.

An as alternative position:

Do you folks have any idea of how cool PvP can be?!!!11!

Really. Battling wits with other players is SO much more fun than playing against AI.

Now, yes, it needs to be optional -- but in this game, it has been announced that it will be.

And, yes, it needs to be well designed -- and this is hard. For example, I have no idea how they will solve the problem of flyers vs. melee, and how Taunt will work.

But a well-designed, optional PvP with the right reward/punishment structure can be so, so, cool.

I look forward!

- Jeremy White

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An as alternative position:

Do you folks have any idea of how cool PvP can be?!!!11!

Really. Battling wits with other players is SO much more fun than playing against AI.

Now, yes, it needs to be optional -- but in this game, it has been announced that it will be.

And, yes, it needs to be well designed -- and this is hard. For example, I have no idea how they will solve the problem of flyers vs. melee, and how Taunt will work.

But a well-designed, optional PvP with the right reward/punishment structure can be so, so, cool.

I look forward!

- Jeremy White

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This game at its heart is a PvE game, I just dont see PvP as viable.


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Wrong....CoV has been known about since CoH's release. It completes the whole vision of the game.

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Wrong...CoV is being released as a stand alone game as I understand it. That means CoH is not about PvP. CoV is. Two different games that work together.

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Do you folks have any idea of how cool PvP can be?!!!11!

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Yes, I can. That would be why I enjoy Counter-Strike, Counter-Strike:Source, Day of Defeat, Natural Selection, World War II Online, Planetside and a plethora of other games specifically designed for PvP.

However every instance where PvP has been introduced into an MMORPG that I have participated in (Asheron's Call, Anarchy Online, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies) the result has been pathetic and often ended in nothing but unending problems for the PvE aspect.

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Really. Battling wits with other players is SO much more fun than playing against AI.

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Agreed. But MMORPGs have nothing of the sort. PvP in MMORPGs boils down to 3 types of conflict.

a: the high-low gank. AKA, "My character is much higher than yours, instant win!"
b: the multi-gank. AKA, roving gangs (2-5) against lone members.
c: the lagfest. AKA, 100-200 participants in a single location where it all boils down to luck.

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And, yes, it needs to be well designed -- and this is hard. For example, I have no idea how they will solve the problem of flyers vs. melee, and how Taunt will work.

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That's just it, some designs simply do not work. No amount of engineering will alter that fact. I, and many others, firmly believe that PvP in MMORPGs is one of those concepts which is completely flawed at the onset.

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But a well-designed, optional PvP with the right reward/punishment structure can be so, so, cool.

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Such a system would never survive contact with the playing public. Even systems designed with PvP in mind (Shadowbane, WWIIOL, Planetside) rarely live up to the potential they have because they have to interact with the playing population and the worst behavior of those individuals.

I think the fact that skills won't be in the next update will be what has me thinking I won't be back ever. I've already quit this game once to play The World of Warcraft exclusively and came back to play with my characters because I spent lots of time on them, did some sketches and even a finished drawing of them and spent some time on their backgrounds. I was really expecting great things with Update #3 and guess what, my level 22 and level 20 have only benefitted from the respecification of powers aside from the balancing that gets done every update. I agree that the /respec has really changed my characters for the better but I feel a bit shortchanged for paying for 3 months. When Update #4 arrives it won't have skills but rather an arena?-Well certain people don't like PvP and guess what?-I happen to be one of them.

I mean in the World of Warcraft its okay because its only in certain high level zones so there is a sense of danger and its also consensual at all levels. If I had to choose in WOW between skills(Blacksmithing/ Mining, ENchanting, Leatherworking, etc..,. and PvP there would be no contest). It would be skills. To me, choosing Arenas over Skills for the Update #4 is wrong. I for one was looking forward to the skills so much that I was going to fork over another three months but that won't be happening. The skills were going to keep me interested because the gameplay would completely change but now with PvP instead I am not interested. I'm sorry Cryptic, I gave you 3 months, have 2 left and now realize since update 4 won't have what I want, its time to say goodbye. Its a shame because I really wanted to like play this game and was jazzed at the thought of update #4 but now it seems like there will be another 4-5 months of the same old grind. I just don't think its worth my $15 a month anymore.

PVP? Bleh.

I don't need the SSOCS.

I need arenas even less.

Anyone who's ever been in a real (not necessarily physical) fight or a competitive sport doesn't need that kind of thrill, I'd think. IMO it mostly appeals to sheltered suburbanites and their children.

I can live with the SSOCS being pushed back, but I can think of about 200 things I'd prefer to arenas. Whatever happened to trenchcoats for example?

As for the first mention I've seen of Arenas? IIRC they were a much requested feature for the game from the pre-Beta boards. Like trenchcoats, actually. But not a pivotal part of the original overall design.


In the end, I'll take whatever Cryptic gives us. Why? Cause it's gonna be free and because it's gonna take the game a notch further. However, I do feel that the installation of Arenas caters to the wrong crowd -- a guy who doesn't have a care about classic superhero fiction, probably has a main character named Legolas the Ninja and played EQ for a year longer than it had ever been conceived of.


When COH should be a fusion of comic and online game experience on all levels.


I merely hope it's just a sidestep, not a change of direction.

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Playing against another player is just about always different. No-one buys beat em ups to play them on their own, at least not for any great length of time, the online scene is designed to play with and against other people. otherwise it'd be an offline game with downloadable patches for content updates. I try and try not to come back to the whole "it's an online multiplayer game" arguement but every time i try and offer up something to the solo and storyline based community, it just seems to feel like it's in a wasted genre.

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I've tried PvP in many other online MMOs, and have come to the realization that I simply don't care for it. I prefer PvE (environment) gameplay. I can and will continue to play a game that doesn't include PvP. This is one of the things in City of Heroes that came as a refreshing change from the standard. As far as the "multiplayer" aspect is concerned, I see that as covered in the teamplay options. Sometimes I like to play solo, and sometimes I like playing on a team. Being able to talk to other people while doing either is just fine for me, and covers all I want and need from "multiplayer".

I know I'm in the minority here, or, at least, the minority of the players who read and post in the forums. This doesn't make my opinion any less valid. Just less often stated.

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