The things Statesman says sometimes.
By
AdHoc,
Posted on: 2004-12-15 19:11 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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The absurd part is that you HAVE heard otherwise:
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Bosses, Elite Bosses and AV's usually require help
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and yet you are still determined to ignore it.
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Let's put it back in full context, then. There's a big thread going on, with people expressing concern that they won't be able to solo missions with bosses, and Statesman says this:
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You should always be able to do your own missions alone.
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I never, never, never said that. Many missions ARE solo-able. Many aren't. Bosses, Elite Bosses and AV's usually require help. So if you see any of those on a mission, get help! The mission text indicates this....
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Someone says "You should always be able to solo your missions," and Statesman replies "No, bosses usually require help." From this, you don't get "Bosses aren't supposed to be soloable"? What do you get, then? It can't just be a blanket assertion that "In the game, currently, bosses usually require help," because that's patently false and an assertion like that is nonsensical in the context, unless Statesman is very confused.
Now, ok, if Statesman really is confused and thinks bosses currently usually require help, and he's just listing all the missions that he thinks CURRENTLY aren't soloable to illustrate that not all missions are soloable, then yes, I'm misinterpreting this and overreacting. If he knows that bosses don't currently usually require help, then he must be talking about the game as intended by the design team, which means they don't want bosses to be soloable.
It's either a statement that "bosses aren't usually soloable", or a statement that "bosses aren't intended to be soloable." How do you read it?
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It's either a statement that "bosses aren't usually soloable", or a statement that "bosses aren't intended to be soloable." How do you read it?
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I read it as: "Bosses are soloable if you pick an AT that the manual says are good soloers. And pick powers, slotting them up, that make your character more of a combatant. Which the manual also says since Bosses ussually con Orange or Red in a mission. Also you have Inspirations to further inprove your characters abilities, like dealing with Bosses."
Yeah ... I would have used "usually" also. It's easier to type. 
NCIS: Best gorram show in the 'verse.
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Main problem is that fake Nemesis are extremely gimpy and do hardly any damage. One slow attack = easy recovery. I can tank them with my defender if I put down Rad infection and enervating field and heal every once in a while.
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You'd think though between the 3 of them that are effectively 7 levels above me (21 levels combined).............that I'd at least be popping inspirations. In another case I retreated from a solo battle with the Envoy of Shadows. Did I retreat because he was kicking my [censored]. Nope - not even close, I retreated cause the battle was dull and would of taken too long to beat him (suppose I oughta go and actually do it just for the point of doing so).
Here is the thing about solo'ing - this is an MMORPG the focus isn't soloing. It is in fact trying to get people to work together for a goal. Now then that said Cryptic didn't EQ it and left solo'ing in. However not every AT can or should be able to do it to the same degree. I would say the order for easiest solo'er to most difficult is as follows:
Scrapper
Blaster
Tank
Defender
Controller
(this a general order, mileage will very with powersets)
I'm sorry (ok, actually I'm not) if your a controller and the best you can manage is a couple white minions - but that is the design of the game, has been that way since the AT design was adopted (2002 - I think). If toughing up the game makes it more interesting and fun at the sacrifice of weaker solo classes..............I say go for it. Right now I don't think it lives up to the challenge it should.
This is something I've had numerous discussions about before. Here we go again... 
Something is seriously messed up with the difficulty in this game. My tanker doesn't fight his way through missions anymore, he just herds everything into a room and slowly whittles it down. That's not fun, that's plain boring. No risk, no fun. Only reason I do my missions is because I'm a big fan of the stories and the game world setting. There's never any sense of danger. Only time I died in recent times, is when I ran into my first Rikti mezzer and he chain-stunned me while on soldier whittled away my health. Not the epitome of excitement.
BUT, make a new character. Solo the missions through the first 10-20 levels. That can get challanging. That gets downright near-impossible at times. The first time you run into a Bonedaddy and he shadowmauls you to death? The first time you run into one of the Damned and he fries your a**? That can be frikking hard.
My hardest and most memorable fight, was with a Fire/Dev blaster I made for Issue 2. He ran the Hollow arc missions solo. Fighting Bedrock (boss in the second Outcast Base) was frikking intense! I was chucking web grenades at him, running around, eating Inspirations, raining fire down on him, getting held, allmost dying, running out of end. I won with a sliver of life left and knew I was pretty damn Hardcore for doing it.
THAT is what is missing in later levels. And it's what they are trying to achieve. At level30, if you run a solo mission, it's going to be hard. You'll need your wits about you to survive. If you meet a boss, you better have some Inspirations to to use, or he will very probably have your [censored]. That's challange. That's fun.
See, you can take on big groups of enemies and totally dominate them and know you're way superior to them. They are known as GREY cons. How much exp do you think Wolverine gets for fighting a bunch of thugs with baseball bats?
heheheheh *quite silly evil cackle in the background*.
There are some missions one cannot solo, there are some mobs one cannot solo. But I've yet to meet a boss I did not defeat solo. As for my best, it was a orange crey and red malta bosses (*) together (first malta mission I think), I had to use few insp (for healing) if I remember right. AV I do not touch alone, Im not the only one who cannot .
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<-- Mind/St controller
(*) neither of whom were confused for the duration except for opening, again if I recall right.
To me def have a harder time.
Point is : never believe it's impossible. Hard or long yes, impossible.. naaaah. The problem lies mostly in the fact that some AT are a cut above the rest. Players who choose them, mostly go for the path of least resistance and start to complain for more difficult encounters when they perceive there is little challenge in the current ones. Sounds like wanting both the cake and eating it to me.
Cheers,
B
Personally I woud like to think that a single boss (along with a small cadre of minions or a Lt.) could be soloable. When you have two or more bosses together, or a Boss with a few Lts., that would be when you start having trouble.
In otherwords, I think that missions with singular bosses at the end should still be soloable.
Epic Bosses, AVs and monsters should mean trouble without a (variable) bunch of friends.
Hell, the way it is now, they'd have to gut the game and sew it back together inside-out to make even level (though still orange con) bosses unsoloable. I think what Statesman was referring to was the fact that he never meant for controllers and defenders to solo bosses and he tried make it so blasters have a hard time. That's what I believe he meant.
I'm not even going to talk about that other guy continually twisting words to sqeeze out a desired meaning.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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If Bosses become unsoloable and 3 white minions become a challenge then this will no longer be a super hero game.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
See Sig.
We've had this discussion many times (and quite a few very recently).
This new statement will hopefully be clarified. But it is just a mutation of the long quoted "3 white minions = 1 hero".
With the changes (which *still* haven't been done) to Test regarding minions and LTs, the plan is to leave Bosses, AVs, and Monsters in the "buffed" state. A boss, on live, is challenging to all (challenging includes difficulty and/or time to kill) except to most scrappers and quite a few blasters. Different levels and the inclusion of pets will change that for other ATs.
People *have* to understand that some ATs will be better at certain things and *should* be able to "[Censored]pwn" bosses ON THEIR OWN. Occasionally, this will include the same treatment for a couple of AVs (but not many). Buffing HP, regen, or damage on Bosses, just about guaranteeing that all ATs at any level need a team to take out a boss, is a weak and lazy approach. It hurts way more than anything. 1 boss *should* be basically on par with 1 hero (for most ATs). Some ATs, depending on skill of the player, will need help for that 1 boss. I think that balance is just about there like it is currently on Live.
Soloing AVs and Monsters is a *programming AI* problem....buffing HP, damage, or regen is the easy way out. Better AI and tactics would just about eliminate all ATs from soloing *any* AV or monster. AVs and monsters *should* need multiple heroes tackling the beasts. But drawn out fights because of huge HP and insane regen rates is not the answer.
I've already forgotten about most of you
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Hell, the way it is now, they'd have to gut the game and sew it back together inside-out to make even level (though still orange con) bosses unsoloable. I think what Statesman was referring to was the fact that he never meant for controllers and defenders to solo bosses and he tried make it so blasters have a hard time. That's what I believe he meant.
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Bosses on test (as well as AVs and monsters) have been significantly boosted in hit points and damage output. This is not a bug, we now know that it was a change intended for release in Issue 3.
You may find that it is a little more difficult to solo bosses for all archetypes, not just defenders and controllers. Sure, there will be builds and tactics and determined players that will be able to bring the boosted bosses down, but the move is designed to significantly reduce the soloability of bosses.
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SHould you be able to solo everything. No. Get over it.
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Bam! 5 stars for you.
On a regular mission, this wouldn't be too bad. There's always the option of outlevelling it. Painful at higher levels, but still an option.
However, if it happens in a TIMED mission, I do have a problem with that. I had one yesterday, a level 26 timed mission: breaking up negotiations between the Sky Raiders and the Family. My contact informed me, AFTER I ACCEPTED THE TIMED MISSION AND THE TIMER HAD ALREADY STARTED TICKING, that getting some help might not be such a bad idea. Well, I decided to try it alone anyway, since none of my SG were online at the time. In the final room there were a Raider Lt and a Family boss (both named) waiting for me. BOTH CONNED +1 TO ME (Lt was orange, boss was red). I play a scrapper. It took me some careful "tactics" (i.e. running away like a little girl and travelling back the .70 miles to my contact to load up on lucks), but I managed to beat them both and finish the mission in time.
I absolutely SHUDDER to think what would happen if they UP the HP and damage of bosses. Maybe a scrapper would still come out victorious, but other ATs might not have such luck.
I, among many others, have been saying since issue 2, that it seems a lot like the devs ARE moving more and more towards a forced grouping situation. Please, before starting your flamethrowers, take into consideration that I fully realize that nobody can FORCE me to group. I KNOW I can just skip missions and sweep the streets, or outlevel them. However, there's no outlevelling anything on timed missions, especially those of which your contact warns you you'll need someone else to help AFTER you've accepted that.
Need more proof of "forced" grouping? The other day I had another one of those "diffuse 3 bombs at the same time" mission. NO warning this was one of those missions until AFTER I had already accepted it. I cleaned out the mission, but left the bombs. I failed it.
For someone who WANTS to do his missions, this IS definitely forced grouping. I could have just let the timers run out on those missions and be done with it, getting only a fraction of the XP I would have gained if I had succeeded. But that's not what I WANT to do.
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Anyway, with this new change, I think even tanks and scrappers may have a hard time soloing Bosses... that's a bit too extreme.
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Personally I hope they make it that scraps and tanks have a hard time soloing bosses..................as it is right now I can and have taken on 3 Fake Nemesis that are 4 levels above me - and win by myself (with some rest brakes while being beat upon). Something is wrong with that.
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BS...Unless you can show me
'If Champions Online is what "CoH was supposed to be", I'm glad that I have what I have rather than "what it was supposed to be".' - The Alt oholic
"I solo'd Hamidon...but I also totally cheated." - Back Alley Brawler
"It is still early. Someone is going to get stabbed tonight I can feel it." - Ishmael (said in Jello Shooters chat)
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SHould you be able to solo everything. No. Get over it.
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Bam! 5 stars for you.
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Where's the clarifier? Solo what? No not everything.....point out any instance of *anyone* saying they should solo everything with any AT?
Yet another blanket statement that is 100% wrong.
I've already forgotten about most of you
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If Bosses become unsoloable and 3 white minions become a challenge then this will no longer be a super hero game.
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Correct! Find me one comic book where Superman, or Spider Man, or Batman runs into a archvillain and says, "Well, I cant handle him alone. I better go get a group together."
Course, who and what constitutes a archvillain. Doc Oc? *****? Lex Luthor? The Green Goblin?
All in all CoH is still the best MMO out there. But it could be better. Of course thats just my opnion and I am only one of a ton of people who play CoH.
'If Champions Online is what "CoH was supposed to be", I'm glad that I have what I have rather than "what it was supposed to be".' - The Alt oholic
"I solo'd Hamidon...but I also totally cheated." - Back Alley Brawler
"It is still early. Someone is going to get stabbed tonight I can feel it." - Ishmael (said in Jello Shooters chat)
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Dude, we're talking about bosses here. Bosses should be soloable. Making people get a group to fight bosses (which show up in a majority of missions) is kind of extreme.
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I havnt read through all 4 pages yet, so this might have been said already.
Same level or +1 bosses should be soloable to most AT's. Simple as that. Anything else, you should get the help of at LEAST one if not two others. If you have such a problem of "Forced grouping" with a friend or two - Why play MMOG anyway? Heaven forbid you might have to get someone to go with you.
Controllers are the only ones that really can't solo well. Even if they can, its takes 9 hours to go from level 2 - 6. (Exageration, I know.) But still. They CAN do it. Just have to know how.
((Disclaimer: The "you" in this post was GENERAL - not directly meant for the poster in which I quoted. ))
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Anyway, with this new change, I think even tanks and scrappers may have a hard time soloing Bosses... that's a bit too extreme.
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Personally I hope they make it that scraps and tanks have a hard time soloing bosses..................as it is right now I can and have taken on 3 Fake Nemesis that are 4 levels above me - and win by myself (with some rest brakes while being beat upon). Something is wrong with that.
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BS...Unless you can show me
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Agree, SHOW ME....
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Need more proof of "forced" grouping? The other day I had another one of those "diffuse 3 bombs at the same time" mission. NO warning this was one of those missions until AFTER I had already accepted it. I cleaned out the mission, but left the bombs. I failed it.
For someone who WANTS to do his missions, this IS definitely forced grouping. I could have just let the timers run out on those missions and be done with it, getting only a fraction of the XP I would have gained if I had succeeded. But that's not what I WANT to do.
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Get ready for more of these. Would it really have been so hard as to leave the mission, ask two people to join you to simply difuse the bomb? SG mates, Friends... even on broadcast. Plus, most of these missions will tell you in orange lettering - "Bring a few friends with you" If the one you did didnt say that, Okay. Some dont - but most do. Still, its not hard to just ask someone.
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I think he's wise to do that, too - why waste time to be as precise and clear as possible, only to have people (not you, necessarily, just people) completely misinterpret what he wrote because they feel like assigning weight to one thing and not another?
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Actually, that has often been the case. When he first said that dark, stone, and ice would be stackable, there were people who insisted that he was talking about art, and not game mechanics, and that he didn't mean that the armors would be stackable. There's a more recent example, but it's a guarantee that if he is as explicit as is humanly possible, someone will take him to mean something completely absurd.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
In thinking more on this...
I think grouping should be a decent part of the game. Unless you also think Trials and TF's should be soloable as well. I know some people used to solo them. Then complained when they shouldnt anymore. Oh well.
This is a massive player online game. Simple as that. Maybe instead of that they should come out with a first person not online game where you could run missions, pick up new powers and levels and everything else. You would never have to worry about grouping with anyone at all.
There are some aspects of the game that you will HAVE to group for. Sure, its 'forced gruoping'. Okay. No one is FORCING you to take that mission, to do a trial or a task force, take out an AV or monster. You dont HAVE to do it. You dont HAVE to accept that mission.
Yes, certain things should be soloable. The BASICS of the game should be - a mission with 1 even or +1 level boss, street hunting, single even level or +1 bosses. LT's up to maybe +1 level. It should scale from there. A CERTAIN AT should be able, with difficulty, to solo a +2 boss. Thats fine. Some ATs are stronger then others - they should be! I know my husband is certinly stronger then I am and I am sure a weight trainer is stronger then him. Im not gonna take them to court and demand they loose muscle and only be as strong as me. Its absurd.
I don't really care what happen in a comic book, or a TV show based on a certain hero, or what happen in a movie. No, I will admit I am really not a comic book girl - but I did enjoy the batmas, Spiderman, hulk movies. If batman was able to solo joker? Great!! I would consider Joker a Boss. Nothing more. Same with the rest of everyone else. But, those dont matter. because they are not this game. The game is BASED with the Basic Idea of Super Heroes. Does that mean its going to be exact to the imaginations of someone else that created ___ Comic or made ___ movie? No. I would hope not. This game was not meant to be like those, its is meant to be its own. Its another dimension, a different place, and different basics. Paragon city doesnt care what batman or Spiderman were able to do. Because they are not here! this is not "their world".
Personally, I agree - all AT's should be able to solo the basics( Same/Lower level misions, Bosses, LTs. Even +1 level Bosses, LTs, misions). Maybe some a bit longer/more difficult then others. But still they all should. When it comes down to other things... Grouping should be involved. TF's, Trials, Larger missions with several objectives or as before - a mission that has several things to all be "disarmed" at once, AV's, Monsters... If you want to call if forced grouping. Go ahead. I call it just part of the game - and a good thing I have friends in it.
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I call it just part of the game - and a good thing I have friends in it.
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And if you dont, its not like its hard to get help or to find friends.
I have no friends who play this game. None of my SG was online. I didn't feel much like going out and find random people while the timer is ticking away.
There would be NO complaining from me if a contact would warn me BEFORE I accept a mission that I will not be able to do it alone. THAT is the beef I have with the current state of this game. Accepting a mission and THEN find out I'll need a team just plain stinks of FORCED GROUPING.
On a side note: I get so f-ing sick and tired of people shouting that this is a MMORPG and that I therefore SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SOLO. SHOW me where in that term it actually says I should group! SHOW me and I'll shut up. If you can't, then get off your high horses and shut up. The multi-player part of these games refers to the social aspect. It doesn't mean "you have to group, because this is an MMO". It just means that MULTIPLE players are ONLINE, playing the same game as you.
I don't mind grouping. I have grouped, and I will group. I just don't always want to, or I don't always have the time to do so. Missions like these REEK of forced grouping. Upping the difficulty even more to the point that bosses become unsoloable REEKS of forced of grouping. Can you avoid bosses? Sure, just street sweep. I want to do missions. There are bosses in missions. Plenty of them. And a lot of them +1.
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Anyway, with this new change, I think even tanks and scrappers may have a hard time soloing Bosses... that's a bit too extreme.
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Personally I hope they make it that scraps and tanks have a hard time soloing bosses..................as it is right now I can and have taken on 3 Fake Nemesis that are 4 levels above me - and win by myself (with some rest brakes while being beat upon). Something is wrong with that.
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BS...Unless you can show me
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I could but it isn't worth the time and energy involved setting it up. You can choose to believe, or you can choose not too. I know what I say is the truth and whether you believe it or not doesn't matter.
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There would be NO complaining from me if a contact would warn me BEFORE I accept a mission that I will not be able to do it alone. THAT is the beef I have with the current state of this game. Accepting a mission and THEN find out I'll need a team just plain stinks of FORCED GROUPING.
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It has been stated previously by the DEV's that contacts should let you know when a group will be necessary for a mission. If you get on a mission where it does not it is a bug and should be reported as such. It is not an attempt at force grouping just something slipping through the cracks.
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Personally I hope they make it that scraps and tanks have a hard time soloing bosses..................as it is right now I can and have taken on 3 Fake Nemesis that are 4 levels above me - and win by myself (with some rest brakes while being beat upon). Something is wrong with that.
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Main problem is that fake Nemesis are extremely gimpy and do hardly any damage. One slow attack = easy recovery. I can tank them with my defender if I put down Rad infection and enervating field and heal every once in a while.